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ubootkapitein
08-06-2004, 01:48 PM
Before 1953 Holland 'possesed' formal Nederlands-IndiŽ (Indonesia) and therefore it had planes like the Brewster Buffalo and the Dornier Do 24 flying boat to defend it. For Japan, it was a very important country/area for the oil!
I MISSED THIS AIRCRAFT (and ships and submarines of the Dutch Royal Navy). What is the opinion of the other readers?

ubootkapitein
08-06-2004, 01:48 PM
Before 1953 Holland 'possesed' formal Nederlands-IndiŽ (Indonesia) and therefore it had planes like the Brewster Buffalo and the Dornier Do 24 flying boat to defend it. For Japan, it was a very important country/area for the oil!
I MISSED THIS AIRCRAFT (and ships and submarines of the Dutch Royal Navy). What is the opinion of the other readers?

lkemling
08-06-2004, 02:32 PM
If a map of the east indies and the Java Sea is provided look for crumpled piles of aluminum and sunken wrecks.Unfortunely the Royal Netherlands armed forces though I'm sure were Gallant as any other nation were pretty much out of the picture as a fighting force by the middle of 1942.

JG53Frankyboy
08-06-2004, 02:42 PM
well, the Brewster is already in game.
also a Hawk75
a CW21 is in development.
AND Dutch as availabe , playable country is confirmed

just maps are not confirmed

Penguin_PFF
08-06-2004, 05:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
well, the Brewster is already in game.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the Dutch Brewster was very different from the Finnish Model 239. The 239 was a de-navalized F2A-1; The Model 339C/D given to the Dutch was a de-navalized F2A-2 with a number of equipment changes. The Finnish Model 239 was not in the Pacific.

The F2A-2, F2A-3, Buffalo Mk.1, and Dutch Model 339C/D are actually all separate aircraft and would need to be made as such in the game. There would be significant differences between the externals and cockpits for all PTO F2A models.

JG53Frankyboy
08-06-2004, 05:39 PM
well ,lets say it that way:
the 3D modell is already in game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

so...................... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Penguin_PFF
08-06-2004, 05:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
well ,lets say it that way:
the 3D modell is already in game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

so...................... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No... It's not, actually.

The F2A-2, to start with, had entirely different dimensions, a multi-paned belly window, and different cockpit equipment. The F2A-3 had different dimensions AGAIN beyond the A-2, and removal of the belly window, and cockpit changes.

Export customers were quite picky. There are lots of differences between the different models, none of which can be glossed over or BS'ed with a simple change of skin. The screenshots with a Buffalo, i.e. a re-skinned Finnish 239, were nice but not representative of what *ahem* might be in work for the game. I have a full list of changes I can post, if you really want to know the nitty-gritty. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Now... Ask yourself why I know all this. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif

The truth is, nothing in this game is "simple" to change. But that doesn't mean it won't be done...

JG53Frankyboy
08-06-2004, 05:48 PM
im always a fan of nitty-gritty stuff http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Flydutch
08-06-2004, 08:42 PM
What about the KNILML who moved as a fighting squadron to the close neighbor Australia (via Dutch New Guinea)with their B-25's and P-40's
They Harrased Japanese in New Guinea the Entire War.
The A/C are already here, the B-25 should become fliyble thoug.
PF Without a North Australia/New Guinea Map?
That would be a serious ommision!

Texas LongHorn
08-07-2004, 04:16 AM
FlyDutch, don't worry my friend. How could they do a sim of the Pacific and not include the Aussie/New Guinea/Solomons. Heck, the base at Lae was in operation for what, two or three years? Don't worry, we'll be able to not only fly the NG but the "Slot" too and in theory recreate "Ironbottom Sound" with the ship action, either in the campaings or the FMB, or both I hope. It's gonna' be a blast. All the best, LongHorn

http://img49.photobucket.com/albums/v149/msdavis/My_Sig_Image2.jpg

Jeronimo83
08-09-2004, 04:02 AM
Pingu, I'd like to know the details on what changed on the Buffalo too actually. Can you post it please?


For the Dutch, the only place where they fought substantially, is the Island of Java. All Dutch Fighters fought there, supported by the British and later also the USA. Some very interesting battles took place there. Considering the size of the Island, I think the most interesting spot to model is the most western part of Java, and the south-east part of Sumatra, with the airport of Palembang. The sea-straight between these two islands was very important. The Dutch did a lot of CAS to support the allied ships passing through when they were very vulnerable. Also, the oil refineries at eastern Java were a important stragetical point. The Japanese conquered first Palembang, then moved on to the south-east onto Java.

JG53Frankyboy
08-09-2004, 05:18 AM
well , in short:
the british and dutch Brewsters based in general on the F2A-2. the finnish Brewsters based in the F2A-1.

-the F2A-2 had a ~12,7cm shorter fuselage between engine and wings. because of a heavier engine ti maintain its center if gravity
-the leftsided exhaust stack was at a higher position , ~ in one line with the wings
-it had a larger spinner
-redesigned Cowling , slightly enlarged


the british Brewster MkI (model 339E) had a movable panel on the left side of their canopies.
they had a fixed tailwheel (F2A-2 retractable).
the cockpit was also british standart (also british sight)

the dutch Brewsters ( model 339C R-1820 with 1100hp , 339D with 1200hp) had a little bit larger fixed tailwhell than the BuffaloMkI.
armament was 2x.303 MG on the fuselage, 2x.50 MG in wings.
also the cockpit was metric and dutch http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif lot of the dutch brewsters never was equipted with reflector gunsights !
they had wing bombracks to carry 100lb bombs.

so, as i said, the first visible differences betwenn finnish and british/dutch brewsters were the shorter fuselage, the larger spinner and tailwheels of the later.

and so far i remember the dutch Brewsters fought also above singapor

[This message was edited by JG53Frankyboy on Mon August 09 2004 at 04:28 AM.]

JG53Frankyboy
08-09-2004, 05:37 AM
and here a visible overview http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.franky.fliegerhospital.de/Brewster%20entwicklung.jpg

Jeronimo83
08-09-2004, 08:35 AM
Thanks for the info, Frankyboy. Were there other changes to the cockpits from the Finnish version to the Dutch and British versions? I heard the Dutch ones didn't have as much armor? May I ask where you got all this info?

Thanks!

JG53Frankyboy
08-09-2004, 12:52 PM
Dutch and RAF pits looks realy the same , most instruments are at same position.

main difference here, compass:
RAF was at the bottom close to the seat , Dutch was direct on panel, where the RAF had their reflection sights mounted . i have no clue were the compass was when a reflection sight was mounted - what was not very often.

also , as i said, the Dutch had metric and dutch language instruments.

color differences , i dodnt know (only b/W pictures here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

recommanded source:
squadron signal
F2A in action
aircraft number 81

(wich sure have errors, but is giving a very good overview)

Dimensionaut_
08-10-2004, 02:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ubootkapitein:
Before 1953 Holland 'possesed' formal Nederlands-IndiŽ (Indonesia) and therefore it had planes like the Brewster Buffalo and the Dornier Do 24 flying boat to defend it. For Japan, it was a very important country/area for the oil!
I MISSED THIS AIRCRAFT (and ships and submarines of the Dutch Royal Navy). What is the opinion of the other readers?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A long time ago I had contact with Luthier about Dutch things in PF. About the Dutch ships among them. I told him I could help him with info on two of the Dutch cruisers. He told me there were no plans to add them in the initial release.

Like said above, some aircraft are in the game, but often different versions: The Buffalo, P-40N, Hawk etc.
Apart from Singapore there is also no map of an area where the Dutch fought.

So, maybe an add-on will bring some good things. Or maybe the Dutch community can do something here...

Probably this also depends a little on the results of the Australians to get some maps in the game. A big part of the war the Dutch flew in defence of Australia.

[This message was edited by Serval_1JaVA on Tue August 10 2004 at 01:43 AM.]

Jeronimo83
08-10-2004, 02:15 AM
Serval check your email please.

necrobaron
08-10-2004, 03:17 AM
I knew there were some differences in the Brewster varients, but I had no idea there were so many.

EDIT: What was the belly glazing for? I initially assumed it must've been for light bombing, but then I realized the Brewster never had bomb hardpoints. Or am I wrong?

"Not all who wander are lost."

Jieitai_Tsunami
08-10-2004, 03:42 AM
Oh the F2-a versions have a telescopic sight.

P.S why doesn't any one fly the Buffalo? It's a great plane! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

GerritJ9
08-10-2004, 05:13 AM
I fly the B239, though I fly offline only- still have 56k modem http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif. One on one against the A6M2 I can usually survive until the Zero runs out of ammo but without much chance of scoring hits myself. 4 against 4 usually ends in a draw i.e. losses are equal. Zero can outclimb and outturn B239, though not by much, B239 can easily outdive A6M2. Here's hoping PF includes the 1200 hp KNIL version which should have a better straightline speed and climb rate http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

necrobaron
08-10-2004, 11:44 AM
I fly the Brewster too. It's great fun to fly. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"Not all who wander are lost."

GerritJ9
08-10-2004, 02:28 PM
It should be pointed out that the Dutch were also active over Borneo (Miri, Kuching, Tarakan and Balikpapan) with Glenn Martin B-10s as well as Brewsters- plus of course the MLD's Dornier Do24s. A flight of Brewsters was based on Ambon to protect the Australian Hudsons based there, but they were cut to pieces when attacked by a vastly superior Japanese force.

PBNA-Boosher
08-10-2004, 02:30 PM
CW-21 should be a blast to fly. I've heard it was a devastating fighter if used properly. The Brewster Buffalo in AEP now is a blast to fly, but wait until you get your hands on those darned things in the PTO. They're pieces of **** in any except the most experienced hands.

I hope we get New Guinea... the Port Moresby and Lae action was hot stuff.

Boosher
_____________________________
"So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you..."
-Gandalf

GerritJ9
08-10-2004, 02:47 PM
Actually, the Buff wasn't as bad as has been suggested over the years- if you haven't done so already, the two volumes of "Bloody Shambles" as well as "Buffaloes over Singapore" are good reading. I could also recommend the two books written by P.C. Boer about the air battles over the Netherlands Indies, but they are long out of print and are in Dutch, so unless you are familiar with that language they are of little use to you. As far as I know, they have never been translated into English.
Of the CW21B, a Dutch pilot who flew both the CW and later on the Hurricane over Java said "the CW21 could outclimb the Zero, but could not outturn it; the Hurricane could do neither."