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actionil2r
10-15-2006, 09:24 PM
I am beside myself!! I have come to the conclusion that the group of folks I fly with online all know something about basic dog fighting that must just elude me. I bet they don't tell me because I am such an easy target to kill.

Even the pilots that are not that good, GET ME. The other night someone that had not played in months joined our server and got behind me easily for a kill.

No matter what I do, I can't get behind anyone, unless they are already chasing someone else. I can not shake them off my backside either. But the whole meet head on and turn always goes to the other pilot and I have tried different planes too.

It was enough to make me subscribe to the message forum after years of lurking and just ask for the hand of help!

If you were training someone in dog fighting in IL2, what would you say in your opinion is the top five most important things to either do, have, or be aware of to have some success?

Werre_Fsck
10-16-2006, 08:58 AM
TrackIR and speed.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://koti.welho.com/kveijala/ubisignature2.png

Viper2005_
10-16-2006, 09:18 AM
Forget about dogfighting. It is a total and utter waste of time.

The objective of aerial combat is to quickly and efficiently kill your enemy or destroy his aeroplane with the minimum of risk to yourself.

You are not engaged in chilvalrous battle between knights of the air.

You are not engaged in the sport of kings.

Your opponent is not a gentleman, nor does he deserve to be treated as such.

Marquis of Queensbury rules do not apply.

Get all of that "fighting" nonsense out of your head. The word "fight" is unfortunately associated in the English language with the word "Fair". "Fair" is a disgusting little loser of the word. It lives in a cardboard box in the street with phrases such as "I tried my best", "It's the taking part that counts" and "but she has a really nice personality". Losers use those (or similar) words and phrases frequently and to excess. Winners go home and **** the prom queen.

There are millions of people on the internet who are very talented at flying aeroplanes around and performing aerobatics with great precision and skill.

These people will out turn and out climb you even if you are flying identical aeroplanes with identical fuel states. You cannot hope to beat them in a "dogfight".

Thankfully, as we have just learned, fighting isn't the be all and end all. In fact it is nothing more than a waste of time.

No matter how good they are at stick and rudder flying, the little beggars all die just the same when introduced at high speed to 20 mm rounds.

Which brings me to my point.

Learn to shoot.

Forget everything else.

Forget tactics, forget strategy, forget all those movies with heros fighting and dying heroically. You're here to kill people and break their stuff. So...

<span class="ev_code_red">Just learn to shoot.</span>

Good flying never killed anyone yet.

If your gunnery is better than his, he'll be dead long before he can do any of what Goose in Topgun so eloquantly refers to as "that pilot ****".

Start out by learning to take easy shots in QMB against friendly targets.

Then move on to attacking unarmed enemy aircraft.

Eventually after a few hundred hours of gunnery training you should be able to gunstat >10% from inside 200 m whatever the deflection angle, and you should be able to score hits at distances of 300 m or more regularly if required, provided that the deflection required isn't massive.

Now fly 1v1 against an armed bandit. You'll kill him at the merge, possibly before he fires a shot. No fancy flying required.

Now, let's go online.

Fly on a nice cockpit on server like warclouds.

Pick a fast aeroplane like a 190 or a P-51.

Fly fast.

Take potshots at any bandits silly enough to get in your way.

Never slow below 450 km/h until you join the pattern to land.

Chances are you'll do alright.

Now add teamspeak so that you can call for help when people follow you, and Track IR so that you can more easily maintain SA.

You'll find that the flying more or less takes care of itself.

In fact, the better your gunnery the less important flying becomes.

The vast majority of ACM tactics are built upon the assumption that gun kills may only be scored from simple, low deflection, low angular rate solutions. If you learn to work with the shots that everybody else discards you therefore utterly invalidate your enemy's tactics.

You won't need to spend time and energy "buying" easy shots for yourself. Whilst all the other pilots are are "fighting" you can get on with the killing.

Instead of turning and burning, you'll drive your aeroplane towards the enemy much like a high-speed airliner. You'll single out the easiest target (ie that which will require the least effort to be expended in manouevre). Often this will be a tightly turning Spitfire to whose circle you can arrange that your flightpath is tangential. He will "unwind" in front of your guns and you will punish him for his lack of SA. From first visual contact to kill will probably be 30s or less. The first he'll know about it is when his screen turns black.

You'll sneak up behind Tempests in their low 6. They can't see you there. You'll close to perhaps 150 m and blast them to atoms. You'll do the same with P-47s caught below 5 km - the only difference is that they take longer to die.

Mustang IIIs may be caught from dead 6 if they have misjudged their energy state, though it's more satisfying to swat them like Spitfires across a circle when they really stuff things up!

P-38s are flying targets. They are big and fragile. Some pilots can fly them very well. This does not matter if you are a good shot.

Bombers are a challenge because of their gunners. You can either work offline at killing gunners, or else staying out of their fields of effective fire. I find the latter tactic most effective. Attack in a series of yo-yos to ensure that you always present the gunners with a high angular rate target. As previously discussed, since you can make those solutions work and the enemy can't, he'll die and you won't.

Headon attacks are very effective against bombers because they offer the opportunity to kill the pilot. If at all possible, you should always aim to kill the pilot of any aeroplane you are attacking.

You should always kill or at least cripple on the first pass.

If it takes more than 2 passes to do the job, go home. He'll be screaming to whatever friends he has over T/S for help. Some people unaccountably have a lot of friends. If you haven't killed him by pass #2 he's probably better than you, which means that he's probably been around for longer than you which is likely to place him into this category.

In such cases, discretion is the better part of valour, which brings me on to point #2.

A superior pilot uses his superior judgement to avoid the exercise of his superior skill.

In other words, even if you were one of those exceptional stick & rudder pilots I mentioned earlier, it would be foolish in the extreme to put yourself into a situation in which your survival depended upon the superiority of your stick & rudder skills. The fact is that you are very unlikely to be the best pilot on the internet. No matter how good you become, there will be some guy on the other side of the world who's better. Probably a squad full in fact.

Since you can't know who you're facing in combat it is best to assume that they're better than you and plan accordingly. Catch them unawares and kill them before their superior flying skills can make a difference. Gunnery is all!

If your attack fails, consider options for a second pass with care. If the enemy is wounded, you may still have sufficient advantage to proceed. If not, unless you still have a clear advantage it is best to disengage. Otherwise you may find yourself in a fight, which as pointed out above is Not A Good Thing.

The key to success is to never start a fight. Instead, prey upon and murder the weak. Kill them in their sleep, or at the least knife them in the back. Remember that a good kill has more in common with a street mugging than a joust between knights of the air (and a joust had more in common with a street mugging than the sanitised legends in storybooks would have you believe).

Fly a fast aeroplane so that you can run away if the situation ceases to be favourable.

Never give the enemy a chance. Make absolutely certain that you enter the engagement with an unfair advantage. If the advantage slips, get out before he has any chance to return the favour.

Be a bully.

Dish it out whilst making absolutely certain that you don't take any.

You'll know when you're doing well because people will start complaining in the chatbar, and the team balance will shift.

<span class="ev_code_red">Play to win. Shoot to kill.</span> All the rest is window-dressing.

Zoom2136
10-16-2006, 10:22 AM
If you see a plane coming from in front of you and that he needs to turn to the right to get a shoot on you... you want to turn to the right your self... so that he as to tighten is turn a lot... which could cause 3 thing... he will possibly black out if he pulls to much... (THEN U HAVE THE UPPER HAND)... he goes for a quick snapshot (low hit % probabilty) or he will overshoot...

EDIT: these are manoeuvers that you do at relatively close range... if you do them to quickly... then the G load on you're apponent his not there and HE WILL be able to adjust and blow your brains out...

If he his on youe six... and you are NOT commited to a turn... and you see someone diving in on you and he is in a right hand descending turn to get to you... you pull inside his turn (right turn) and pull up... remember you are trying to force an overshoot...

Defensive move always aim at usinf your enemies speed to your advantage... alway go in the direction were G force is preventing (or slowing) him to go...

AND VIPER 2005... has valid and good points... you should always drop down on enemies from high with speed and blow their brains out quickly and the reposition for anyone thats trying to do the same to you... BUT and this is a biggy... dogfighting skills ARE ESSENTIAL as you will from time to time have to fight your way out of tough spots... or dive in to save a M8 that got jumped...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"http://www.oacsquad.com/images/sigs/zoom.gif "

Zoom2136
10-16-2006, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Badsight-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Don't be dismayed. This is a toy. Heavens! When people are able to shoot down 10+ aircraft per sortie online, something is definitely amiss! its because we are better & more experienced in FB that the RL pilots were in the actual planes

experience gained from thousands of "deaths" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes we are more experienced... but mostly we don'te have to fight with the fear of having our REAL *** SHOOT OFF or baried 6 feet under ground...

As an exemple... if you think that a real life pilot would in the heat of combat force a high speed stall at 200m of the deck to force an overshoot (like we see often online) you a dreaming my friend....<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"http://www.oacsquad.com/images/sigs/zoom.gif "

JG14_Josf
10-16-2006, 10:45 AM
actionil2r,

If you can post a track file, then, someone can figure out what happens during that fight.

If you want I can offer my opinion of your track files - send one here:
josf.kelley@verizon.net

Examples of
track files (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/%7Echapman/il2guide/tracks.htm)

Brain32
10-16-2006, 10:50 AM
The only thing I disagree with:

Forget tactics, forget strategy...
Everything else are great advices, both Vipers and Zoom's, just with a different approach in regards to most flown plane types which differ greatly...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

This is my sig http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

KaleunFreddie
10-16-2006, 11:31 AM
Here's another... Forget all the previous 'Gobbledee-****' - just use your imagination. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.bomber-command.info/medalbc.jpg

Viper2005_
10-16-2006, 11:52 AM
Tactics and strategy don't matter once rounds are in the air.

If you've made bad tactical or strategic decisions in the past it's too late to do anything about them.

If you've got the best tactic in the world up your sleeve for your next move it doesn't matter one bit if those rounds hit you. You're just another dead man.

~90% of offensive ACM is about spending time and energy to set up easy shots. If you can make hard solutions work then you can forget 90% of the tactics and simply stick to staying fast; meanwhile 90% of your enemy's defensive tactics, which are intended to deny you easy tracking shots are rendered useless.

Good gunnery beats strategy and tactics (along with just about everything else).

dieg777
10-16-2006, 12:20 PM
the things that make a difference to me

1) stay fast
2) stay high
3) pick your fight - dont just go in to every furball - only fight when YOU have an advantage
4) check six
5) teamwork and comms
6) practice -especially gunnery - but practice the right things- ask others to send you tracks of themselves flying the same type of plane as you and learn how they line up shots and where and when they fire
7) Learn about Energy - how not to lose it carelessly and how to use your E to best advantage
8) if you get caught with bandit on six -get to max speed and make small weaves and jinks at right times to ruin gun solution while running for home. If you turn hard you lose E and die so try to keep as fast as possible while moving out of his gun sight
9) loose sight -loose fight- you must keep eye on bandit at all times -this is where TIR helps
10) www.airwarfare.com (http://www.airwarfare.com)

good luck<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v640/dieg777/mutley.jpg

Are you confused,lost and alone ? Dont Worry
Airwarfare is your friend
http://www.airwarfare.com
http://www.airwarfare.com/guides/config_guide.htm

Zoom2136
10-16-2006, 12:22 PM
~90% of offensive ACM is about spending time and energy to set up easy shots. If you can make hard solutions work then you can forget 90% of the tactics and simply stick to staying fast; meanwhile 90% of your enemy's defensive tactics, which are intended to deny you easy tracking shots are rendered useless.

THIS SOUNDS LIKE A TACTIC OR STRATEGY TO ME http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"http://www.oacsquad.com/images/sigs/zoom.gif "

Viper2005_
10-16-2006, 12:25 PM
Well kinda. But saying "fly fast and shoot accurately" is rather too obvious to count as a proper tactic or strategy don't you think? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

VW-IceFire
10-16-2006, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by actionil2r:
Hello everyone, just checking in. I am reading your messages with great excitement. FYI I have a TrackIR4, a logitech extreme 3dpro. My PC I built in 2003 is a P4 3.2, 1GB DDR RAM, ATI 9800XT 256MB. I'm due to upgrade soon. Its been 3 years.

I'll keep practicing. I have to work on some things.

I have to work on keeping altitude to my advantage. I dive a lot, then find myself below the enemy.

I use my TrackIR often, when I turn my head to look behind me it seems the enemy is turning on a dime behind me, and firing right away. SO FRUSTRATING.

When you say turn inside his turn I may be a bit confused. If the enemy is banking to the left, does turning inside his turn mean I also turn left? Or turn into the opposite direction?

Thanks again all!
Yes if your enemy is making an attack on you and is turning left you should also be turning left. If you turn right, then for a period of time he doesn't have to turn and he's on your six in a position to fire.

Lots of people get the angles all wrong online.

When you're being attacked, don't turn away, turn into him instead. If you turn away you present your tail for an easy shot.

On the other hand...when a friendly is trying to help...turn away from the friendly. This presents the tail of the enemy fighter attacking you to your friend so that he has a clear shot. FAR too many people I try and help online turn towarrds me me. They often present a rediculous 120 degree deflection shot which is damn near impossible to hit with.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/icefire-tempestv.jpg
Find my missions at Flying Legends (http://www.flying-legends.net/php/downloads/downloads.php?cat_id=19) and Mission4Today.com (http://www.mission4today.com).

Badsight-
10-16-2006, 11:23 PM
if you follow Viper2005 advice - youll never learn to master DFing .

you will take longer to rack up kills . youll get less "engaged" time .

forget the ego & the desire to live . to learn your going to get killed over & over . all who know how to DF took the same path

Dogfighting is an "in-the-moment" thing . think about what worked or didnt after the fights over . & quit reading this forum - your wasting valuable pratice time

gkll
10-16-2006, 11:46 PM
Badsight has a point I think... I looked over the advice you got and noticed that no one is offering anything much other than high energy tactics advice.... in opposition to this I suggest that there is a case to be made that the skills you learn should start with learning how to survive and win when you are in an angles fight, with a similar opponent. Then go learn high e tactics....

Not all the people participating in our little world are so set on the safe kills mentality... lot of sneering (more than say a year or two ago) about anyone who even suggests angles fighting is fun and entertaining. However it is a fact that this game can be played with an emphasis on (say) 'sportsmanship, fair combat, even planes (even identical planes, ie 'IROC'), or, as suggested in this thread, you can play for kills, safe kills, lotsa safe kills. Or anywhere in between.... pick your own style.

Anyways it sounds like you are trying to stay to fight... and this is where your problems are. Most advice has been <don't> stay and fight, play the shoot and blow by game. Fair enough, still, it may be a good strategy to learn how to survive in a close in fight, first. Follow up on some of the links posted and do some reading, its all there, my 2c.

DEY_RAVEN_UK
10-17-2006, 12:32 AM
Hi all

I say go in to a server like WC and dogfight.The only way to improve is to fight against people with more experience than you.

Record the tracks and then review them.

Pick a plane you are comfortable with and a plane that is fairly good at low speed turnfights because most fights end up low speed and on the deck.( forget the FW190 at the moment).

Air gunnery is important but you have to position the guns on to the plane you are fighting so good Dogfighting skills are more important.....i think.

Learn evasive manouvers first everything else will fall in to place.

The other guys covered everything else.

rnzoli
10-17-2006, 05:23 AM
lots of fine details covering the main issues http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

if all you care about is to be a good dogfighter, remember to do this (if the server/host allows):

- switch off the cockpit - helps with following your opponent and shoot him down
- activate minimap - will work like a radar
- use padlock as often as possible - nobody can sneak up to you
- always fly with 25% fuel - gives more manouverability
- put elevator trim on a slider - gives more manouverability.

If even all that fails to help, you may try to seek out a sqaud that flies with crooked .SFS files, but that's really the very last resort... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

However, if you are interested in aivation as well as world war II, you should forget everything I wrote above.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

A "world's first": fully automatic, dedicated COOP server controller. Features and available servers here (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html).
http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/the_full_difficulty_COOP_server.JPG (http://web.t-online.hu/rnzoli/IL2DSC/intro-coop.html)

fighter_966
10-17-2006, 05:40 AM
Originally posted by dieg777:
the things that make a difference to me

1) stay fast
2) stay high
3) pick your fight - dont just go in to every furball - only fight when YOU have an advantage
4) check six
5) teamwork and comms
6) practice -especially gunnery - but practice the right things- ask others to send you tracks of themselves flying the same type of plane as you and learn how they line up shots and where and when they fire
7) Learn about Energy - how not to lose it carelessly and how to use your E to best advantage
8) if you get caught with bandit on six -get to max speed and make small weaves and jinks at right times to ruin gun solution while running for home. If you turn hard you lose E and die so try to keep as fast as possible while moving out of his gun sight
9) loose sight -loose fight- you must keep eye on bandit at all times -this is where TIR helps
10) www.airwarfare.com (http://www.airwarfare.com)

good luck

And if I can make one add concenrate your target and stay
on it till it drops ( dont follow your kills longer than its necessary)

TgD Thunderbolt56
10-17-2006, 06:08 AM
Great advice from some experienced fliers here. The only thing I'd stress with emphasis is to get on coms. It costs nothing and you'll hear how strategies are formulated as well as possibly picking up a wingman... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

A good wingman on coms can do more for your online success than anything else...all things considered.

Even if you don't talk you can listen. Much of the intel exchanged will not only guide you to the fight but potentially put you in a spot of advantage before you get there. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

TB<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/Thunderbolt56/English157.jpg
================================================== ======
I.O.C.L. (International Online Competition League) (http://www.gozr.net/iocl/index.php?sid=77e1596a8421c8d6f7e717eab883f534)

WOLFMondo
10-17-2006, 06:24 AM
I agree there, comms is the most important too next to learning evasive manouvers which can lead to a reversal. If you cannot reverse someone then you will get shot down because you won't know how to combat there manouver or perform it yourself.

I've noticed allot of good advice but some of it is only practical in pure DF situations. In a situation where your escorting, or carrying ordanance things are allot different.

If your covering for someone who's ground pounding you can't stay high, staying near your top speed will burn of tons of fuel quickly, you cannot extend for 5 miles and hope to provide some form of safe escort, you can't run for home either cause the person your protecting will get shot down.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

Cheers!!

WWSensei
10-17-2006, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Badsight-:
if you follow Viper2005 advice - youll never learn to master DFing .

you will take longer to rack up kills . youll get less "engaged" time .

forget the ego & the desire to live . to learn your going to get killed over & over . all who know how to DF took the same path

Dogfighting is an "in-the-moment" thing . think about what worked or didnt after the fights over . & quit reading this forum - your wasting valuable pratice time

Couldn't imagine a more boring and waste of time way to play. Not an ego thing--done too much real life flying for the game to even come close to touching that, but if this were the only style of fighting in the game it would have gathered dust on the shelf long ago.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

--------------------------------------
"A lady came up to me on the street, pointed to my leather flight jacket and said, "Don't you know a cow was murdered for that jacket?" I replied menacingly, "I didn't know I left witnesses. Now, I'll have to kill you too."

Zoom2136
10-17-2006, 10:39 AM
And forget about hitting about 10% of the time like Viper2005 told you... you should be satisfied with more than 4%... a lot of the top scoring guys on WC score between 4-6%... unlest your into stats...

IT's the

Zoom2136
10-17-2006, 11:32 AM
Here is a good read if you want to learn more about areal combat...

http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/inpursuit.pdf (http://web.comhem.se/%7Eu85627360/inpursuit.pdf)<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"http://www.oacsquad.com/images/sigs/zoom.gif "

Viper2005_
10-17-2006, 04:37 PM
If you're satisfied with 4% then you're not going to improve.

If you stat 4% then 96% of your rounds are wasted. That's a lot of room for improvement.

Note however that I didn't ask for 10% gunstat. I asked for >10% gunstat within 200 m. Most people do most of their missing at long range, and I would suggest to you that almost all of the top pilots to whom you refer will stat at or better than 10% when only shots at ranges within 200 m are considered.

Careless fire alerts the guy you're shooting at to your evil intent. It also draws attention to your position, making it easy for your enemy's friends to come to his aid and kill you. Come BoB the first thing I'll do once I've learned to shoot .303 is remove all tracer from the belting.

Poor marksmanship also wastes your ammunition. You may well need that ammunition to shoot your way out of trouble later. Sensible fighter pilots save some fuel and ammunition "just in case". Even the most gung-ho heroic dogfighters out there can't score many kills once they've run out of bullets - if you stat 4% you can only hope for half the kills per sortie of the pilot who stats 8% and so on.

And it isn't the number of hits that counts. Sorry. You can put 100 rounds down on 100 different bandits and the chances are they'll all keep flying quite happily unless you've sniped the pilot. Put 10 rounds each on 10 bandits and your success will depend upon where the rounds go. 10 cannon rounds into the wingroot will dewing a Spitfire for example. Spread them all over the aeroplane and it'll keep flying. Put 100 rounds into a single bandit and the chances are better than even that no matter how messy your grouping is the poor beggar's done for (99% of the time if you're putting more than about 30 rounds into an aeroplane without scoring a kill your grouping is to blame - the other 1% is packet loss).

jimDG
10-17-2006, 04:43 PM
Could you post a few tracks of your "bad" dogfighting? De-briefing would be nice http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Other than that, IMHE, you've got to have alt over your opponent if in a less maneuverable a/c, or be co-alt in a more maneuverable a/c.
If your a/c climbs better than the opposition some people will attempt outclimbing if co-alt (not me - too tedious).
Thats it.

Badsight-
10-17-2006, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by WWSensei:
Couldn't imagine a more boring and waste of time way to play. Not an ego thing--done too much real life flying for the game to even come close to touching that, but if this were the only style of fighting in the game it would have gathered dust on the shelf long ago. TnB dont make for long pilot lives or kill streaks . you will get jumped sooner or later absolutly

the thread starter was specifically asking for Dogfighting advice tho

its all well & good to like one style & sound off about it . CFS players are ego-jocks after all .
but the irony of of saying "Forget about dogfighting. It is a total and utter waste of time" in a thread where DF info is exactly what is asked for is funny<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1741/shindendrawflight66os.jpg

Badsight-
10-17-2006, 11:05 PM
i guess some people's idea of fun in FB is purely making kills .

personally i liked the thrill of the fight - being up against someone elses knowledge as you try to out-position each other . learning manouvering in fight after fight . different strokes for sure

btw - you havent experienced a survival challenge like the old VEF was - it was so hard to keep a pilot alive flying blue in that online war . & then when the 20mm finally got fixed it fizzeled out a few months later . nothing taught me more about this game than experiencing the locked pit VEF


Originally posted by Viper2005_:
If you're satisfied with 4% then you're not going to improve.

If you stat 4% then 96% of your rounds are wasted. That's a lot of room for improvement.

Note however that I didn't ask for 10% gunstat. I asked for >10% gunstat within 200 m. what killed good hit percentages was when AEP came out

FB on its own is way less complicated & easy on your PC & connection . in v1.22 i could average 20%+ hit ratio with my favorite plane DF room after DF room

AEP killed this game for hit-tracking & it didnt change in PF . as stated above good pilots dont average much over 10% if at all with the way FB has become

slipBall
10-18-2006, 01:50 AM
Originally posted by actionil2r:
I am beside myself!! I have come to the conclusion that the group of folks I fly with online all know something about basic dog fighting that must just elude me. I bet they don't tell me because I am such an easy target to kill.

Even the pilots that are not that good, GET ME. The other night someone that had not played in months joined our server and got behind me easily for a kill.

No matter what I do, I can't get behind anyone, unless they are already chasing someone else. I can not shake them off my backside either. But the whole meet head on and turn always goes to the other pilot and I have tried different planes too.

It was enough to make me subscribe to the message forum after years of lurking and just ask for the hand of help!

If you were training someone in dog fighting in IL2, what would you say in your opinion is the top five most important things to either do, have, or be aware of to have some success?



I would stay off-line untill you are good at beating AI....then you will have half a chance when you go on-line....it's important to learn all skills through practiceing<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/SlipBall/orders.jpg

Viper2005_
10-18-2006, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by Badsight-:
TnB dont make for long pilot lives or kill streaks . you will get jumped sooner or later absolutly

the thread starter was specifically asking for Dogfighting advice tho

its all well & good to like one style & sound off about it . CFS players are ego-jocks after all .
but the irony of of saying "Forget about dogfighting. It is a total and utter waste of time" in a thread where DF info is exactly what is asked for is funny

Well not really - my dogfighting advice if you really want to get down to brass tacks is "Don't!". I'd say that's valid advice.

Dogfights are the result of a failure to prosecute an attack on the first pass. If you're the attacker, finding yourself in a dogfight is an indication that you made a mistake along the line.

If you're the defender, it's an indication that your SA is borderline - you shouldn't have allowed yourself to be attacked in the first place. However, now that you're in trouble, you'd best get out of it. Extend if possible. If not, do some of that pilot **** until you either kill him or help arrives.

Taking pride in dogfighting ability is a bit like taking pride in being the pilot of the Gimli Glider. It's great being able to get yourself out of trouble, but you should aim not to get yourself into trouble in the first place IMO!

mynameisroland
10-18-2006, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by Zoom2136:
And forget about hitting about 10% of the time like Viper2005 told you... you should be satisfied with more than 4%... a lot of the top scoring guys on WC score between 4-6%... unlest your into stats...

IT's the # of kills that count... not your hit %... tell me how much... not how you did hit... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Ignore this advice

Its better and more skillfull to kill 100 people and die 5 times than to kill 400 people and die 200 times.

Yes some pilots take longer to score kills but the guys who have KD ratios of greater than 10/1 kill fast, can dogfight with the best but above all know how to shoot and how to survive and most importantly when to disengage.

When they disengage you may be thinking Hah! moral victory for me! but in 2 minutes time when your wing is spinning around detached from the rest of your plane the chances are its been blown off by the guy who 'ran' away.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y294/mynameisroland/Newsig3.jpg

Zoom2136
10-18-2006, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
If you're satisfied with 4% then you're not going to improve.

If you stat 4% then 96% of your rounds are wasted. That's a lot of room for improvement.

Note however that I didn't ask for 10% gunstat. I asked for >10% gunstat within 200 m. Most people do most of their missing at long range, and I would suggest to you that almost all of the top pilots to whom you refer will stat at or better than 10% when only shots at ranges within 200 m are considered.

Just tell me where you go off telling him to shoot above 10% (inside 200m) when your own Warcloud stats show that you are not even shooting over 6% in Air to Air combat.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif OR is it that you don't follow your own advice and shoot from outside this 200m range ???

Just look at the WC stats... not a lot of people shooting over 6%... and even far less over 10%... as for an exemple their is only one shooting above 10% that fly the Spit IXe... actually he shoots for about 10.8%... and I think he goes by the handle... [OAC]Zoom... I don't know why... but this call sign sounds familiar... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

But even so... your shooting average Viper2005 is VERY GOOD and don't think I don't recognise that... it's just that 10% + within 200m is IMO pretty high...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"http://www.oacsquad.com/images/sigs/zoom.gif "

Zoom2136
10-18-2006, 08:01 AM
Dogfights are the result of a failure to prosecute an attack on the first pass. If you're the attacker, finding yourself in a dogfight is an indication that you made a mistake along the line.

If you're the defender, it's an indication that your SA is borderline - you shouldn't have allowed yourself to be attacked in the first place. However, now that you're in trouble, you'd best get out of it. Extend if possible. If not, do some of that pilot **** until you either kill him or help arrives.

Point A - Very true... you should always manoeuver your plane to get a tactical advantage... just racing in his generally not the answer...

BUT... sometime you will have to do it... like when a M8 gets jump (happens a lot to bomber pilot)... So flying in a way to reach mission objectives (like on WC) will get you kill sometime... man... I just know that I'm a flak magnet... and diving in to protect bombers over target always means certain death for me... that the price of TEAM PLAY... get those bombers home...

If I want to get my kill / death ratio up... I just fly high... dive down on unsuspecting targets and get my kills... but that does not help acheiving the mission objective... unlest your caping a target area http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Point B - True if you're flying on your own and someone jump you... but FALSE (i.e.) if you drop in on someone... typical B&Z and that you get nailed by a second fighter that drop down from the heavens when you're zooming up and extending... GENERALISING like Viper2005 does is...well... kind of wrong... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"http://www.oacsquad.com/images/sigs/zoom.gif "

Zoom2136
10-18-2006, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zoom2136:
And forget about hitting about 10% of the time like Viper2005 told you... you should be satisfied with more than 4%... a lot of the top scoring guys on WC score between 4-6%... unlest your into stats...

IT's the # of kills that count... not your hit %... tell me how much... not how you did hit... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Ignore this advice

Its better and more skillfull to kill 100 people and die 5 times than to kill 400 people and die 200 times.

Yes some pilots take longer to score kills but the guys who have KD ratios of greater than 10/1 kill fast, can dogfight with the best but above all know how to shoot and how to survive and most importantly when to disengage.

When they disengage you may be thinking Hah! moral victory for me! but in 2 minutes time when your wing is spinning around detached from the rest of your plane the chances are its been blown off by the guy who 'ran' away. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BTW... I'm just refering to the % of hits here... if you take high deflection shoot you will have a lower hit % but can still kill as fast or even faster than someone who attacks from dead 6 (less manoeuvering time)... Their is no reference to the kill / death ratio...

Also... if you want quick kills fly blue... because as far as I'm concern it takes more gunnery skill to bring down a plane when you're flying a Spit (only 2x20mm) then when you're flying a 109(190) with a M108 or two... FW190A9 rings a bell anybody... a the one hit wonder canon... (hey I'm not saying that it his not modelled right... it is just far more destructive that all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif)

And remember in real life... pilots had a mission to acheive... they did not always have the leisure of flying high and fast hitting stray lamb... they also had to fly close escort... and in servers like WC we (on comms) usually rally together so that we acheive our mission... meaning that some of us actually fly close escort... and pay the price for it...

But when you're a good pilot with good dogfighting skills you will usually prevail 1 vs. 1 (I would say that I prevail maybe 90% of the time). But you're chance of survival drop down dramatically when his freinds show up... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"http://www.oacsquad.com/images/sigs/zoom.gif "

Viper2005_
10-18-2006, 08:21 AM
Of course you should take high deflection shots. But you should still work to improve your accuracy. Don't be satisfied with 4%. Don't be satisfied with anything less than 100 - so long as there is room for improvement, seek to improve!

Winning 1v1 isn't a very useful skill because as you point out most wars are many v many.

Why fly close escort?

A fighter next to me cannot help me. Far better to have fighters ahead of me clearing out the target area, or waiting in my high 6 to prevent anybody from bouncing me. Both is best!

All that a fighter in close escort can do is watch me die and then try to avenge me.

Effective escort is all about prevention, not cure.

And incidently, when I bomb, I do so at high speed! I fly either A9s or, once in a blue moon when I fly red, Mustang IIIs and I push them as fast as they'll go. Often escorting 109s or Spitfires can't keep up, which is yet another reason for abandoning close escort.

Zoom2136
10-18-2006, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
Of course you should take high deflection shots. But you should still work to improve your accuracy. Don't be satisfied with 4%. Don't be satisfied with anything less than 100 - so long as there is room for improvement, seek to improve!

HAAAAAAAAAAA... this is good advice... always aim at getting better... but don't get discourage if you're not hitting a lot... as long as you get the kills... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

As far a "close" escort... always good to fly relatively close to bombers when on the way to targets... cause you know Viper that a FW190A9 will bring down a bomber in an instant... so fly close (within 500m) normally above and to the side and intercept any incoming planes... even if their is more than 1 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"http://www.oacsquad.com/images/sigs/zoom.gif "

WWSensei
10-18-2006, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by Badsight-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
Couldn't imagine a more boring and waste of time way to play. Not an ego thing--done too much real life flying for the game to even come close to touching that, but if this were the only style of fighting in the game it would have gathered dust on the shelf long ago. TnB dont make for long pilot lives or kill streaks . you will get jumped sooner or later absolutly

the thread starter was specifically asking for Dogfighting advice tho

its all well & good to like one style & sound off about it . CFS players are ego-jocks after all .
but the irony of of saying "Forget about dogfighting. It is a total and utter waste of time" in a thread where DF info is exactly what is asked for is funny </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To classify TnB as the only type of dogfighting is leaving out 90% of the true dogfighting. If the only interest is in "Air Quake" fighting at 50 feet then my advice is do what ever the heck you want as it is irrelevent to development of any skill. Dogfighting as a term encompasses all aspects of it, not just the mindless circle jerks.

Also a veteran of VEF here too (and countless other online wars dating back to the early 90s in a variety of sims). Longest streak I had in VEF was a 27 kill streak and 54 sortie streak.

Ended up dropping out when a certain squad was found to be using questionable exploits and pretty much ruined the spirit of the thing. One reason we no longer participate in open wars and are happy to just do our own thing with a few of the like minded squadrons we've gotten to know over the years.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

--------------------------------------
"A lady came up to me on the street, pointed to my leather flight jacket and said, "Don't you know a cow was murdered for that jacket?" I replied menacingly, "I didn't know I left witnesses. Now, I'll have to kill you too."

Viper2005_
10-18-2006, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Zoom2136:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viper2005_:
If you're satisfied with 4% then you're not going to improve.

If you stat 4% then 96% of your rounds are wasted. That's a lot of room for improvement.

Note however that I didn't ask for 10% gunstat. I asked for >10% gunstat within 200 m. Most people do most of their missing at long range, and I would suggest to you that almost all of the top pilots to whom you refer will stat at or better than 10% when only shots at ranges within 200 m are considered.

Just tell me where you go off telling him to shoot above 10% (inside 200m) when your own Warcloud stats show that you are not even shooting over 6% in Air to Air combat.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif OR is it that you don't follow your own advice and shoot from outside this 200m range ???

Just look at the WC stats... not a lot of people shooting over 6%... and even far less over 10%... as for an exemple their is only one shooting above 10% that fly the Spit IXe... actually he shoots for about 10.8%... and I think he goes by the handle... [OAC]Zoom... I don't know why... but this call sign sounds familiar... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

But even so... your shooting average Viper2005 is VERY GOOD and don't think I don't recognise that... it's just that 10% + within 200m is IMO pretty high... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I think there's something strange about my warclouds stats. If you look at my aeroplane stats I score 7.32% with the D9 and 18.01% with the A9, yet somehow my stats on the combat page I score 5.81% a2a and 3.53% a2g.

I think there's some very clever accounting going on!

Interestingly looking at your stats, 10.71% a2a + 0.48% a2g = 11.19% which tallies well with the 11.18% under the aeroplanes section, which is how I would expect the stats to work. Perhaps my stats are broken?

You actually answered your own question. I sometimes have to shoot at longer ranges to clear somebody's 6. The Dora in particular has bags of ammunition, and I therefore take quite a lot of low percentage shots. It's part of the learning process.

In the Anton I almost always stick to the up-close and personal stuff, because my primary goal is to put an SC500 on a group of tanks, and you can see the effect upon my gunstat.

BTW, since the MG151/20 was fixed, I haven't use the MK108 much at all. I much prefer the 151/20 - better ballistics (drop and accuracy), higher ROF and more ammunition more than make up for the slightly reduced hitting power. The 108 is far less popular with blue pilots than red pilots imagine!

Make of it what you will.

KaleunFreddie
10-18-2006, 12:33 PM
Imagination I tell you... everything else will fall into place... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.bomber-command.info/medalbc.jpg

Rammathorn_
10-18-2006, 12:39 PM
There is no worse feeling than getting bounced, trying desperately to keep your wings attached to your plane until a friendly shows up, then watching said friendly extend away after he misses his first pass. BnZ is unquestionably the better way to fight, but the ability to dogfight will save your friend's virtual life one day.

On Warclouds, I've both been shot down by Viper and had my tail saved by Zoom. Both are clearly very skilled. However, when it comes down to it you shouldn't treat dogfighting as strictly pilot ****, as keeping a friendly alive is just as important as blowing an enemy out of the sky.

HayateAce
10-18-2006, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
BTW, since the MG151/20 was fixed,

Yeah, it was "fixed" alright. That gun is a crutch for blue players who were getting their ***es handed to them until they cried hard enough.

I have little use and no respect for you folks.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://aerofiles.com/lock-p38j.jpg

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.sloganizer.net/en/image,Luftwhiners,black,white.png (http://www.sloganizer.net/en/)

BillyTheKid_22
10-18-2006, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viper2005_:
BTW, since the MG151/20 was fixed,

Yeah, it was "fixed" alright. That gun is a crutch for blue players who were getting their ***es handed to them until they cried hard enough.

I have little use and no respect for you folks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://members.cox.net/bkid/pacificfighters/PacificFightersSignature.JPG

.................................................. ..............

"All I got was a bellyful of English Channel."

Viper2005_
10-18-2006, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viper2005_:
BTW, since the MG151/20 was fixed,

Yeah, it was "fixed" alright. That gun is a crutch for blue players who were getting their ***es handed to them until they cried hard enough.

I have little use and no respect for you folks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The MG151/20 was fixed after a considerable mountain of technical data was presented demonstrating that a coding error had been made. You would do well to remember that it is a 20 mm cannon firing explosive shells, not a pea shooter.

Its effectiveness is in line with other similar weapons in the game. Other than the fact that it obviously shoots you down a lot, what exactly is the problem?

And I'd wager that few people have very much more use or respect for you than you have for the blue team.

In my experience one of the more accurate measures of character is the respect a man shows for his opponents be they philosophical, political or martial.

HellToupee
10-18-2006, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Viper2005_:
BTW, since the MG151/20 was fixed,
The MG151/20 was fixed after a considerable mountain of technical data was presented demonstrating that a coding error had been made. You would do well to remember that it is a 20 mm cannon firing explosive shells, not a pea shooter.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it wasnt really an error, for eastern front facing il2s i belive it was said it was correctly modeled, the only change was mineshell in the belt. Funny how anything other than HE shells are considered pea shooters even in the 20mm class in this game,

Viper2005_
10-18-2006, 02:40 PM
IIRC the intention was to fit standard belting to the main aircraft mounted guns and armour piercing "anti IL2" belting to the gunpods. Unfortunately somewhere along the line the two were mixed up due to a typographical error.

AP rounds don't work well because the DM is too simple.

Hopefully BoB will fix this by adding working cooling systems to inline engines, and maybe even giving us functional oxygen systems.

F6_Ace
10-18-2006, 02:47 PM
1. Use F6
2. Use F6
3. Use F6
4. Use F6
5. Fly a Spitfire

Job done.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004YL1M.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

karost
10-18-2006, 03:16 PM
Hi for my idea about "Basic Dogfighting top five":

1.Shooting skill is the top list
2.Situation Awareness to manage a good decision with less mistake
3.Team play tactics
4.Flying dogfight skill
5.Luck

but a good shooting skill or flying skill can not help you if put your self in a difficult situation.


I see one player manage him self to stay on an advatage position and made boom n zoom shoot me three time with a bad shooting skill , he just make a minor damage to me then I drag him to my friend and my friend shoot him down with 80 degree deflection shooting in one pass(with mk108). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

so that's why I think Shooting skill is the top list of concern.

S!

KaleunFreddie
10-18-2006, 04:19 PM
You lot are reallllly DENSE.....
It's always imagination that'll make you survive/win... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://www.bomber-command.info/medalbc.jpg

Xiolablu3
10-18-2006, 05:10 PM
DOn't dogfight at all, its too dangerous.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I despise what you say; I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

Xiolablu3
10-18-2006, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
I have little use and no respect for you folks.


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif


Funny to see the least respected person on the forum, who makes all the most daft, stupid, ill informed, biased comments to talk about respect. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"I despise what you say; I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

AnaK774
10-18-2006, 05:25 PM
1. Never fly alone. 4 eyes see more than 2 and have smaller dead area. Most dead pilots didnt see guy who got em.

2. Always know whats going around of you. Good situational awareness is best life insurance you can get.

3. Know strenghts and weaknesses of your plane and your advesorys plane. If youre going to engage, engage at your terms,
use your strenghts to exploit enemys weaknesses.

4. Never enter fight unless, you have good attack plan and exit to situation where you can decide do you continue attack, observe
situation or disengage. If you have to re-engage, make sure you have exit still open.

5. Make sure your first shot is good. If you feel uncertain bout firing solution, get closer. Getting hits on steadily maneuvering
target is easier than one evading so SHOOT TO KILL, no warning shots.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

"On your machine the plane seems to perform quite poorly. I think that there may
be something nearby the machine that is causing this problem for you. You may
need a mirror to find out what it is specifically." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
AKA LeOs.K_Anak

Viper2005_
10-18-2006, 07:49 PM
Zoom, you made my point for me tonight.

I burned all my energy (and my engine) to clear a friendly, shot 7 shades of excrement out of a Mustang (which kept flying), and then found you on my 6. I called for help for about 3 minutes (saw you quite some time before you reached gun range), and even tried dragging you to the main fight to make it easy. My friends weren't prepared to risk helping me.

As I said, Dogfighting is a waste of time. Lots of risk, very little reward...

GK BTW.

Badsight-
10-18-2006, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
MG151/20 WHAAAAAA
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/1865/ponywao7.jpg what a lollercaust

Badsight-
10-18-2006, 11:51 PM
Originally posted by WWSensei:
To classify TnB as the only type of dogfighting is leaving out 90% of the true dogfighting. If the only interest is in "Air Quake". i dont like how you try to show TnB as the wrong ,false or untrue form of Dogfighting

that term , Dogfighting , came about from WW1 . when the planes in the air resembeled dogs circling around each other in a fight

TnB is the original form of Dogfighting

you say 90% of fights are E-fights or other forms of combat in this game . i say Most fights you see online are hard-turning DFs

whats wrong with fighting close to the ground ? is it "eaiser" to have nowhere to dive to ? does it take less skill to maintain altitude in hard manouvers ?

you see im an E-fighter (or try to be) , & the elietist attitude that shows when people feel the need to denigrate hard-turning combat is very very funny to me<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/1741/shindendrawflight66os.jpg

Badsight-
10-19-2006, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
Taking pride in dogfighting ability is a bit like taking pride in being the pilot of the Gimli Glider. It's great being able to get yourself out of trouble, but you should aim not to get yourself into trouble in the first place IMO!
prehaps certian players find getting in close & having a hard-turning fight Fun!

because thats what this game should be however your approach is to it (fun)

& yes - it is "funny" to see people who dont think much of TnB try to give DF advice . specifically when thats exactly what the person is asking for

sorry if you think this is a dig of some kind at you - i get amused by the "schools of thought" try to say their philosophy is "best" . its like reading martial artists argue over their "style" . one doesnt fit all - & the debtes never fail to amuse

i had a 50+ kill streak in the VEF in my best run - i didnt need 40 sorties to get it . this was the day of equal speed/climbing opposition that could out-turn you .

GR142-Pipper
10-19-2006, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by actionil2r:
If you were training someone in dog fighting in IL2, what would you say in your opinion is the top five most important things to either do, have, or be aware of to have some success? THE number 1 most important thing in a dogfight is to maintain sight of your opponent. The adage "Lose sight, lose the fight." is so true. All else in the engagement is subordinate to this.

Go to quick mission builder and simply practice keeping sight of your opponent. Don't worry initially about getting a shot off or being shot down by the AI opponent. Just practice acquiring and maintaining sight of your opponent's plane.

Once you feel comfortable with this you can go on to learning the other aspects of the engagement. Be patient with yourself and learn this one first....it's the most important and one of the most difficult.

GR142-Pipper

El Turo
10-19-2006, 12:23 AM
There is no TnB.

There is no BnZ.

There is only the almighty "E".

...and gunnery skill.<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_____________________
Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
Badge of Blood (http://www.BadgeofBlood.com)
Producer/Developer

Community-friendly pricing: http://www.magnum-pc.com/ (Tell 'em Hawgdog sent ya!)

Also, please bump THIS THREAD (http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/49310655/m/5571002324) in support of Hunter.

Badsight-
10-19-2006, 12:28 AM
manouvering never shot anyone down

only bullets hitting can

El Turo
10-19-2006, 12:35 AM
Well, that's not entirely true.. hehe.. if you've ever made someone pancake into mother earth from out-manuevering them.. then that doesn't apply. But, admittedly, that doesn't happen too often, but it is one of the most satifying of kills! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

_____________________
Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
Badge of Blood (http://www.BadgeofBlood.com)
Producer/Developer

Community-friendly pricing: http://www.magnum-pc.com/ (Tell 'em Hawgdog sent ya!)

Also, please bump THIS THREAD (http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/49310655/m/5571002324) in support of Hunter.

GR142-Pipper
10-19-2006, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
Forget about dogfighting. It is a total and utter waste of time. Respectfully, I think this is not the best advice. The ability to engage and prevail is a necessary skillset that ALL fighter pilots must have. One must pick the right time and place but sometimes that decision isn't yours to make and you must be able to cope.


Get all of that "fighting" nonsense out of your head. The word "fight" is unfortunately associated in the English language with the word "Fair". "Fair" is a disgusting little loser of the word. It lives in a cardboard box in the street with phrases such as "I tried my best", "It's the taking part that counts" and "but she has a really nice personality". Losers use those (or similar) words and phrases frequently and to excess. Winners go home and **** the prom queen. Well, if your date happens to be the prom queen (don't you just wish) and if "Johnny the A-hole" makes an untoward move on her, you'd better be prepared to beat the living dog **** out of Johnny. Aerial combat, like dating the prom queen, is not a risk-free undertaking.


These people will out turn and out climb you even if you are flying identical aeroplanes with identical fuel states. You cannot hope to beat them in a "dogfight". Certainly not with a defeatist attitude like that. You'd be better off flying transports or glider tugs.


Thankfully, as we have just learned, fighting isn't the be all and end all. In fact it is nothing more than a waste of time. I'd like you to go into ANY fighter squadron's ready room and let that one fly. You won't even have to tell me when you do it as everyone will hear the laughter from coast to coast.
Good flying never killed anyone yet. Good flying is always a prerequisite before squeezing the trigger.

It's been my experience that people who advocate that "fighting is a waste of time" are generally not very good at it and/or are risk-averse by disposition. You may be an exception but that's a pretty safe bet the vast majority of the time. I certainly don't advocate recklessness but you must be prepared to deal with a variety of situations...many of which you won't be able to dictate.

GR142-Pipper

GR142-Pipper
10-19-2006, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by DEY_RAVEN_UK:
Hi all

I say go in to a server like WC and dogfight.The only way to improve is to fight against people with more experience than you. I'd recommend a server other than War Clouds. The game action there is WAY too slow for an individual who is learning the basics. Engagements are what's needed.

I'd recommend going to the Russian servers like Alexserver and Streamarena. Also the 334th and one or two other non-full real servers will offer a much better opportunity to practice your dogfighting. Also don't worry if the server has externals, padlock, Wonder Woman features enabled or not. YOU fly from the cockpit only.

Lastly, don't worry if you get shot down time after time. You're learning and you WILL get shot down. Importantly, even when your skills are significantly improved you'll STILL get shot down. Everyone does...the least experienced and the most experienced...no exceptions. Keep practicing and keep your chin up. :-)

GR142-Pipper

msalama
10-19-2006, 01:05 AM
I'd recommend going to the Russian servers like Alexserver and Streamarena.

Gennadich G1 as well if it's full real you're after. Some truly great fighter jocks on both sides there...<div class="ev_tpc_signature">

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Hippies FTW!