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LeadSpitter_
09-02-2005, 10:11 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/402announcement.jpg

Cut him some slack english was his second language.

WarWolfe_1
09-02-2005, 10:14 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Bearcat99
09-02-2005, 10:43 PM
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You gave me a good laugh LS... I really really needed one right now.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

crazyivan1970
09-02-2005, 10:53 PM
Hehehe.. now you back http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hetzer_II
09-02-2005, 10:57 PM
Booring and stupid like always...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

s!

LeadSpitter_
09-02-2005, 11:03 PM
lol sry hetzer my buddy but fact is fact.

JG301_nils
09-03-2005, 12:13 AM
LOL Leadspitter, haven't noticed your animated avatar before.
I just waited for the last frame, where the canopy is blown away with pilots head..
Maybe it's over the top

Cajun76
09-03-2005, 12:20 AM
'tis but a flesh wound...

x__CRASH__x
09-03-2005, 12:24 AM
http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/heleny/happybunny/bunny15.jpg

p1ngu666
09-03-2005, 02:00 AM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/402announcement.jpg

Cut him some slack english was his second language.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
i have a horrid feeling the german planes might become even better in 4.02...
109 outturning gladiator, fw190 without stall or something..

carguy_
09-03-2005, 02:13 AM
Hehehe no problem we have our guns also.

*shouts*Hristo,mate will you ome over here!!!


As for Bf109 some of you ppl keep forgetting that a significant part of LW community had flown the original IL2 for a year minimum.The FM was not generous back then.However we were still able to beat that La5FN in a greatly undermodelled G6early(admitted by Oleg).
For me better FM means that some planes will bleed more enery in horizontal maneuvers because I still see people doing endless circles without losing altitude.

Maybe the Mig3 will be fixed,it is terribly overmoddeled at turn ability at low altitudes.

Do not worry,the real LW xperten(such as me ofcourse http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif ) know how to get kills andif the MG151/20 doesn`t change,there will be no noticeable difference,at least online.


You see as I always believed it,the tunes leading to more realistic FM hurt red planes the most.

Gibbage1
09-03-2005, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by carguy_:

As for Bf109 some of you ppl keep forgetting that a significant part of LW community had flown the original IL2 for a year minimum.The FM was not generous back then.However we were still able to beat that La5FN in a greatly undermodelled G6early(admitted by Oleg).
For me better FM means that some planes will bleed more enery in horizontal maneuvers because I still see people doing endless circles without losing altitude.


I was able to beat 109's in the greatly undermodeled P-38, but that means nothing now does it?

p1ngu666
09-03-2005, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:

As for Bf109 some of you ppl keep forgetting that a significant part of LW community had flown the original IL2 for a year minimum.The FM was not generous back then.However we were still able to beat that La5FN in a greatly undermodelled G6early(admitted by Oleg).
For me better FM means that some planes will bleed more enery in horizontal maneuvers because I still see people doing endless circles without losing altitude.


I was able to beat 109's in the greatly undermodeled P-38, but that means nothing now does it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

think it means u haxxed gib, or u flew against n00bs http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

before 4, the p38 was a dog, to me, and all but a few drivers, such as yourself i imagine as ur a good stick.

carguy_
09-03-2005, 03:03 AM
Originally posted by Gibbage1:
I was able to beat 109's in the greatly undermodeled P-38, but that means nothing now does it?


Well I didn`t see Oleg admitting he did somth wrong with P38FM.If you got a URL to such thread I`d be happy to study what is wrong with P38.I need Oleg`s confirmation on this though.He did confirm bad FM of early G6 model in IL2.

You were able to beat 109?In a 1v1?I was shot down by a P38 just once online to 15xP38 of my airkills.I was killed by AFJ_Locust back at VWF days.I was jumped by 3xP38 at 500m,damaged and finished.To be true I don`t meet them too frequently because Spitfires chew 109 down low,especially in Normandy map where you can`t see ****.Shooting down a P38 was never a challenge let alone getting on their six but that is another story because I always look for Spitfires first.


I think that there may be something wrong with my perception of P38 as a fighter.It just doesn`t fit for a fighter and is not as nearly dangerous.USAAF accounts present it as a very good fighter which means besicly that a P38 can challenge a Bf109 1v1.Not in the game.I`d like someone from 1C team to confirm bad modelling of P38 before I get shot down by a P38 in a 1v1.

I find this situation to be hardly believable although I guess that if the P38 WAS a decent fighter in fact(and it isn`t) it needs to be altered whatever the LW whines.

Or maybe the P38 is modelled correctly but the Bf109 is grossly overmodelled?

Grey_Mouser67
09-03-2005, 08:47 AM
I like the points you are making around historical results vs. gameplay.

The hard data and quantitative stuff like speed, rate of climb, corner speed, power to weight ratio's, wing loading etc...are the place to start with modelling because they are absolute...problem is there is so much contradictory data that one has to make a choice.

Then comes the qualitative...stabililty, torque, stall characteristics, weapons strength, toughness, and those unique things that every aircraft has...slat snatching, compressibility, control authority etc, etc, etc... those are the things that are really creating a lot of fuss lately as some aircraft are seemingly getting the benefit of the doubt and others are getting left behind and they really determine the outcome of a fight nearly as much as those hard things....

Then lastly, perhaps the most difficult, there is historical evidence vs. ingame results. Tactical situations in game are much different than in real life but not so much that comparisons can't be drawn....if a Hellcat had a 19:1 kill ratio in real life...should it have a .75:1 kill ratio in game? If HMG's took about 18 hits and required the expenditure of between 200-250 rounds to kill in real life should it require 500 in game?

Yes the Lightning, if it was an effective fighter in WWII, should be effective in game...it is getting closer...still needs some elevator authority and the J model needs climb rates improved and some stability in yaw and pitch would be in order...it will competitive then...especially if the 109/190 energy retention is more representative of historical values...I really get the feeling that the 109 decellerates really, really fast with engine off but retains energy with engine on really, really good too...just don't know how to confirm this so maybe it is a little of both...underwhelming performance of lightning and overwhelming performance of Fw.

By the way...a J model lightning can fight a Bf109G6..unboosted variety to a stand still given equal tactical situation but because it is faster and can run away...I always found combinations of Fw's and 109's to be impossible because I could out run one, but not the other...out turn one but not the other and outroll neither.

TAGERT.
09-03-2005, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/402announcement.jpg

Cut him some slack english was his second language. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Bearcat99
09-03-2005, 08:54 AM
To expect historical results in any sim even one as obviously good as this one is like expecting two football games betwen the same teams to go exactly the same way each time. It will not happen. Pilot skill, connection, PC performance and everybody's favortite luck will all come into play. When you put that up against the historical facts you have to remember that there were a lot more factors going on than the ones I just mentioned for gameplay.... like piulot fatigue, strength, skill, situation, weather... and of course everybody's favorite.. luck. Im not trying to insult anyones intelligence either..... I know all of you are smart enough to know these things but sometimes i think we kind of loose those points in the discussions on this subject.

TAGERT.
09-03-2005, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Bearcat99:
To expect historical results in any sim even one as obviously good as this one is like expecting two football games betwen the same teams to go exactly the same way each time. It will not happen. Pilot skill, connection, PC performance and everybody's favortite luck will all come into play. When you put that up against the historical facts you have to remember that there were a lot more factors going on than the ones I just mentioned for gameplay.... like piulot fatigue, strength, skill, situation, weather... and of course everybody's favorite.. luck. Im not trying to insult anyones intelligence either..... I know all of you are smart enough to know these things but sometimes i think we kind of loose those points in the discussions on this subject. You forgot dumb luck and good looks! Two things I count on the most! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

x__CRASH__x
09-03-2005, 09:45 AM
Please provide at least one URL proving you have good looks.

I think you are a phoney at the P-38L, TAGERT

Grey_Mouser67
09-03-2005, 10:17 AM
Missing the point...You can not expect historical results...but to ignore them in your comparisons is foolish...of all the data available to model that I listed (quantitative, qualititative, historical)...historical results is the least important...but don't ignore them...it is like statistics..they are what they are but the context and assumptions lead to deductions and the deductions are what is important..

There should not be obvious, aweful, contradictions...contradictions don't exist.

Carguy did a reality check and I think his deductions were correct...if a plane was effective in real life, it should be effective in game if it is modelled properly. To ignore that would lead to many poor decisions by the developer...there is always the human side of the equation and the tactical situation to consider...those are the assumptions and context.

Enough said...anyone who wants to ignore reality need not respond as I have no desire to debate that...the only debate worth having is with regard to the factors that affected the real outcome.

woofiedog
09-03-2005, 10:30 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kuna15
09-03-2005, 10:30 AM
With German planes better equal or worse, with Spitfires better equal or worse (http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif) I would like to see 4.o2 out for download anyway. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

|CoB|_Spectre
09-03-2005, 10:42 AM
The thing that concerns me most, the thing no one has made mention of, is Goering's cryptic "will be ending Shorty". This troubles me greatly. Shorty was one of our better pilots and always paid his club tabs on-time. Is nobody else alarmed about Shorty? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
09-03-2005, 10:43 AM
If the latest organised campaign of whining has had any sway, I'm quite sure LS will be correct.

Still, we'll be able to steer clear of fantasy servers so it's not all bad.

Ta,
Norris

TAGERT.
09-03-2005, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
Please provide at least one URL proving you have good looks. Ok, but with the uderstanding that you promise not to start sending me a bunch of ghay emails telling me how much you want me! Deal? Ok, look here

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2101020713


Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
I think you are a phoney at the P-38L, TAGERT Oh, Im sorry CRASH.. Where you still operating under the false impression that I or anyone else gives a rat a** about what you think? I thought for sure I made that clear a long time ago? Guess not, but for now, please make a note of it!

KRISTORF
09-03-2005, 12:10 PM
Poor Shorty http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

waffen-79
09-03-2005, 12:12 PM
OK so after 4.02 there should be NO MORE red whinners right??

right?

Diablo310th
09-03-2005, 12:45 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif OMG LS...that was too funny.

csThor
09-03-2005, 01:05 PM
Lead - your animosity towards all axis aircraft and especially the folks flying them is well known, but lately your self-righteousness has gotten worse. Forgot to take your medication? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

This mindset is IMO the single biggest problem of this community - "Wait till Aircraft XYZ is moddeled correctly [read: As I think it should be], then I'll give you ..."
As Bearcat said historical incidents and achievements mean sh*t in this simulation, as the majority of the factors influencing what happened back then won't work here. We - the players - are not members of a military organisation, we don't have to follow orders, we don't have to obey a certain doctrine of using the aircraft within the overall war effort. We're doing this to kill some of our freetime, as a hobby and not a life and death struggle.

Lately I've become more and more disgusted with the ORR and the GD because of these pointless FM debates and p*ssing contests. I've seen those before on other simulation boards, but there was no underlying animosity between the "two sides" just for the sake of animosity, no underlying feeling of supremacy ... but here the protagonists of both sides are simply poisoning the atmosphere for their smallminded, egoistic crusades for 5 minutes of board fame.

Now flame away http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

carguy_
09-03-2005, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by csThor:
Lead - your animosity towards all axis aircraft and especially the folks flying them is well known, but lately your self-righteousness has gotten worse. Forgot to take your medication? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I think that you are trying to say to him that even if what he says is autoirony some people are obviously getting bored at his exaggerations.Or maybe Leadspitter is serious?Then he really needs medication.
Just try to laugh,Thor like some of us did.


This mindset is IMO the single biggest problem of this community - "Wait till Aircraft XYZ is moddeled correctly [read: As I think it should be], then I'll give you ..."
As Bearcat said historical incidents and achievements mean sh*t in this simulation, as the majority of the factors influencing what happened back then won't work here. We - the players - are not members of a military organisation, we don't have to follow orders, we don't have to obey a certain doctrine of using the aircraft within the overall war effort. We're doing this to kill some of our freetime, as a hobby and not a life and death struggle.

Yup not a matter of life and death.I dunno.I have distance to all those debates.Some people actually like to play roles of WWII airmen and I don`t blame them.It is fun and build a specific climate around the game.I`m role playing myself alot.

As for this "wait till the x arrives..." threads they are nothing but fish threads.If you can`t play the same game just don`t read the thread.
I like to joke around with my real life pals and this forum I take the same.I joke with my LW pals about red side,red side answers,we are respect*** to each other,mods let us and all have fun.This is a part of ommunity thing IMO.

Oh and may I add there were no "wait till x arrives" threads by LW pilots. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif





Lately I've become more and more disgusted with the ORR and the GD because of these pointless FM debates and p*ssing contests. I've seen those before on other simulation boards, but there was no underlying animosity between the "two sides" just for the sake of animosity, no underlying feeling of supremacy ... but here the protagonists of both sides are simply poisoning the atmosphere for their smallminded, egoistic crusades for 5 minutes of board fame.

The origin of the problem lies in two groups.
1.People who believe that their planes are undermodelled and post data yet they lack serious info to prove this.
2.People who don`t know **** about performance,aerodynamics,ballistics,etc. but post on a regular basis just to stirr things up.

Both groups are confident that they are vouching for the right cause.Flames from this in most cases IMO.

The 3rd group has a wide knowledge,works on fixing bugs and does everything required to prove their point(charts,accounts,tests).

Sadly the last group is the smallest.


Now flame away http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Just try to laugh at this,man.Have fun.Nobody will touch your favorite plane unless Oleg says so. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MEGILE
09-03-2005, 02:03 PM
Nice work LS http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

csThor
09-03-2005, 02:38 PM
Carguy - I can't laugh anymore. Those underlying tones I've mentioned have taken over the discussion - just look at the debates on the P-38 L (late) and lately the new 150oc P-47.

It's no more if the P-38L (late) really existed or not (I do not believe it BTW, but that's off topic here and doesn't concern me since I'm offline only) - the discussion has been squashed under accusations, namecalling and flames right from the start and no matter what someone says it's going to be put on the gold wager by some of the "experts" with an agenda. The same happened (and will happen again) to 150oc P-47 (which is a perfectly reasonable type IMO).

This is a dangerous development as I fear it will influence Maddox Games's view on interaction with the community here. A result may be a "Battle of Britain" with the very same weaknesses (namely offline mode) because there were no voices of reason and just the same performance whines all the time.

Monty_Thrud
09-03-2005, 02:51 PM
Woofiedog...is your d..erm friend impersonating Robert De Niro..."Hey...you looking at ME!"

Badsight.
09-03-2005, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by csThor:
This is a dangerous development as I fear it will influence Maddox Games's view on interaction with the community here. happened a long time ago

certian forum members cannot debate WW2 planes without making personal nationalistic insults to whoever disagrees

Stanger_361st
09-03-2005, 03:10 PM
This is a dangerous development as I fear it will influence Maddox Games's view on interaction with the community here. A result may be a "Battle of Britain" with the very same weaknesses (namely offline mode

Not a problem Thor same fear here. Just on the other side of fence with sames fear.

TAGERT.
09-03-2005, 06:02 PM
The natives are getting restless.. I must be doing someting right!

LeadSpitter_
09-03-2005, 10:43 PM
It looks like the truth hurts and know a change is coming for realism.

csThor
09-03-2005, 11:55 PM
Still, Leadspitter - is it really necessary to rile other folks this way? Especially when knowing how poisoned the atmosphere is lately? What are you trying to achive - another flamefest? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

HelSqnProtos
09-04-2005, 12:08 AM
S~!

There is nothing wrong with pointing out facts. 4.01 was unbalanced. IF the patch fixes things we can get back to "some" semblance of fairness which will hopefully bring back some civility.

I foresee a lot of new and exciting developments in the next few months. Lets hope Oleg does his part.

Badsight.
09-04-2005, 01:51 AM
id rather see FB become accurate rather than Fair

Fairness has no place in a Historical Simulation

jugent
09-04-2005, 02:02 AM
Havnt I heard "stop whining and learn to fly" from you?

Badsight.
09-04-2005, 02:10 AM
http://xs44.xs.to/pics/05350/tn138-00151.jpg

woofiedog
09-04-2005, 02:39 AM
Monty_Thrud... I asked her... but she only wanted another Treat! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

blindpugh
09-04-2005, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
id rather see FB become accurate rather than Fair

Fairness has no place in a Historical Simulation yes mmm8 the only time the germans will win the battle of britain is in this game

joeap
09-04-2005, 03:40 AM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
id rather see FB become accurate rather than Fair

Fairness has no place in a Historical Simulation

Well yes in that no side should have an advantage they did not have historically. Otherwise yes agree 110%