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Bearcat99
08-15-2004, 10:14 PM
I was going to title this thread Whats the best way to practice but then I realized that there is no "best way" only different ways. Some better than others. Tonight my squad and i were trying to train a new pilot in the basics. We started out in a coop with no bandits.. but then it hit me. A better way to practice online or off.. alone or with the squad.. is to start up a DF server. Pick an airfield, select a plane and go. To be more specific and to use our squad as an example. We had a new pilot that we were trying to train in the basics. Taking off and landing clean and fully loaded. By going into a DF server if you crash you can respawn. If you want to try different planes or different loadouts (A fully loaded P-47 is a diffent story from a P-47 with rockets alone.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif) you can do that in a DF server. While the Ops Officer was training our recruit, another pilot and I were practicing bombing. We went to another field so as not to interfere with the other training and dropped to another comms channel on Vent. We loaded up with bombs and proceeded to head to the enemy bases on the map... bases that [/i]were already set up with ground targets[/i]. Granted there werent a lot of them.. but enough for us to practice with. Then we would go back to our base, reload and do it again. We picked off several bases then when other squad members came on who were more experienced we went into a coop and ran a few missions. It dawned on us that this was an EXCELLENT way to practice and do a TOTAL practice. When you have a squad with limited time and varying needs then a DF server is the way to go. We managed to practice bombing & straffing, touch & gos, navigation, familiarizing ourselves further with the maps and terrain.. and all this being able to respawn/rearm when we needed to. The only area that we didnt cover with this tonight was air to air, for that we sometimes go into coops with lots of targets and unlimmitted ammo to practice wingman and gunnery skills, although air to air skills can be honned there (in a DF server) too flying against your squadmates and also flying different aircraft to better understand how they fly to understand thier strengths and weaknesses.. Then when you finish it up by going into a mission you will be surprised at how differently things will gel. Just a thought. And Im sharing.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

How do you practice?
What do you want out of the sim?
For us points dont matter as much as everyone surviving the mission. Although, dont get me wrong.... nobody likes to see the zeros at the end of the mission.. we like negative numbers even less. Share your practice tips and techniques since as you all know this sim is very demanding and even the more experienced among us can never get too much in the way of techniques.

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IMMERSION BABY!!

Bearcat99
08-15-2004, 10:14 PM
I was going to title this thread Whats the best way to practice but then I realized that there is no "best way" only different ways. Some better than others. Tonight my squad and i were trying to train a new pilot in the basics. We started out in a coop with no bandits.. but then it hit me. A better way to practice online or off.. alone or with the squad.. is to start up a DF server. Pick an airfield, select a plane and go. To be more specific and to use our squad as an example. We had a new pilot that we were trying to train in the basics. Taking off and landing clean and fully loaded. By going into a DF server if you crash you can respawn. If you want to try different planes or different loadouts (A fully loaded P-47 is a diffent story from a P-47 with rockets alone.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif) you can do that in a DF server. While the Ops Officer was training our recruit, another pilot and I were practicing bombing. We went to another field so as not to interfere with the other training and dropped to another comms channel on Vent. We loaded up with bombs and proceeded to head to the enemy bases on the map... bases that [/i]were already set up with ground targets[/i]. Granted there werent a lot of them.. but enough for us to practice with. Then we would go back to our base, reload and do it again. We picked off several bases then when other squad members came on who were more experienced we went into a coop and ran a few missions. It dawned on us that this was an EXCELLENT way to practice and do a TOTAL practice. When you have a squad with limited time and varying needs then a DF server is the way to go. We managed to practice bombing & straffing, touch & gos, navigation, familiarizing ourselves further with the maps and terrain.. and all this being able to respawn/rearm when we needed to. The only area that we didnt cover with this tonight was air to air, for that we sometimes go into coops with lots of targets and unlimmitted ammo to practice wingman and gunnery skills, although air to air skills can be honned there (in a DF server) too flying against your squadmates and also flying different aircraft to better understand how they fly to understand thier strengths and weaknesses.. Then when you finish it up by going into a mission you will be surprised at how differently things will gel. Just a thought. And Im sharing.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

How do you practice?
What do you want out of the sim?
For us points dont matter as much as everyone surviving the mission. Although, dont get me wrong.... nobody likes to see the zeros at the end of the mission.. we like negative numbers even less. Share your practice tips and techniques since as you all know this sim is very demanding and even the more experienced among us can never get too much in the way of techniques.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://www.tuskegeeairmen.org)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
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IMMERSION BABY!!

LuckyBoy1
08-16-2004, 12:01 AM
Yeppers, a friendly dogfight server is good for starts. Then after a while you can make up a dogfight map with lots of the same type of targets. I know there are drawbacks in the long run to unlimited ammo, but as much as I hear talk, very few out there can better my skip bombing skills (I dearly hate the Navy, don't ask me why!) and I learned it by skip bombing with unlimited ammo.

Then the next step is to practice on the targets with unlimited ammo in a coop. This will make the new pilot think before getting careless about losing his plane. Then take away the unlimited ammo so he can learn that ammo and bombs are precious resources.

Same sort of scenario can be used against any targets, not just ships. You can do the same with bombers or fighters or tanks or AAA or...

Now with an actual index & more fiber! It is newer & and even more improved! It's Luckyboy's Guide For Complete Users!...

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/luckyboy/LuckyboysGuide2.htm

Luckyboy = Senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11 & Contributing Editor to Complete Users magazine.

WTE_Galway
08-16-2004, 12:08 AM
easiest landing practice is a "start in air" server as you spawn directly over an airbase at the selected altitude

best gunnery practice for beginners is initially offline at half speed

Weather_Man
08-16-2004, 12:19 AM
When I was in a squad, we would train once a week in a private DF server. We would practice one or two maneuvers during the session. Beforehand, the instructor would post on our website what would be covered and include any charts or brief outline of the topic. Then, the squad would join at the set time, get on TS and watch and listen on the ground as the instructor(s) demonstrated the particular maneuver or concept. Once he had gone over it, we would send up teams of 1v1, 2v2 or 3v3 or whatever and practice it while everyone else stayed on the ground and watched. Then take turns with the others. By keeping people on the ground watching the people practice, we can make comments on their execution and critique things they did right or wrong, etc.

Then, after the training session, those who could would go into a public server and practice as a team what we just learned. It was really quite effective. And, more importantly, kept the interest level high.

Learning different evasive maneuvers a seeing first-hand how effective they can be was the best thing I got out of it.

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Fehler
08-16-2004, 01:15 AM
Personally, I think nothing beats head-to-head dogfighting to improve your skills as a virtual fighter pilot.

I used to think I was a fair pilot until I started flying on Greatergreen, Warclouds, F16, and VirtualPilots. Then I realized that I wasnt so good. (As a matter of fact, I still suck)

I worked very hard at "Staying alive" and not rushing into a furball. I also worked my butt off in deflection shooting by making high speed passes at friendly (Small aircraft) in QMB. Learning deflection takes some patience, but it is the only way to fight and stay alive.

From time to time, I will set up some bomb targets and go ground pounding for practice as well.

Squad training is great. Reducing radio chatter to "Necessary traffic" only is important in any squad setting. But dont hesitate to throw your new recruit as the leader immediately! The faster he can understand how to control a flight/staffel, the sooner he will gain appreciation and trust in his fellow pilots.

Also, I am very goal oriented as a person, so I would tend to help the new guy set goals for himself.

Flying in VWF and other online wars is also a rewarding and enjoyable way to get both immursion and training.

You are absolutely correct, there is no "Right" way to train. But before you set up your training, I truly suggest you think about what it is you want to accomplish first. Let's say we want to become more efficient at bombing. Then setting up a mission to bomb targets with unlimited bomb loads would be ideal. Just put a bunch of targets in one spot, bomb them to get used to the different ways to drop bombs, them move to a different area where the targets are moving. (Way harder)

If it's dogfight training, you may want to start off with demonstration on how to perform the normal energy moves; Yo-yo, Hammerhead, etc. And some defensive moves; Split S, scissors, etc.

Also it is important to teach a new guy about "little movements." In other words, when you see tracers flying overhead, dont panic. Make slight corrections with rudder in an attempt to retain more energy. Getting slow after a panic attack because you merely yank on the stick will make you slower and give you less options.

That's really the key to digfighting.. selecting options. The more you have at your disposal, the more likely you are to survive. But to improve by the fastest means, nothing beats "Doing."

Bring your squad over to warclouds some night. There are bomb targets, mission objectives, and of course dogfighting.

I will be the hun in the sun when you get there.. hehe

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SeaFireLIV
08-16-2004, 02:13 AM
How do I practise?

Well, practising to fly and fight aircraft is like making love to a beautiful woman... You look her over, get into her, take her to heaven and back dozen times, make ya shot, then coax her gently back to earth.

Er... What? Really practise? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Offline, in Campaign. Always, all the time.
If there`s a plane I don`t know, I`ll fly as a first-timer, like many pilots did in WWII. I advise this so much, but the kid-jockeys don`t want to know because it`s not a quick fix. They prefer to go ONLINE and be shot down continuously before it dawns them they need to practise offline... and then they`ll still try to avoid that!

1. Campaign (at least twice a week, 2 missions).

2. I usually fly early war planes. It`s the best way to understand an aircraft and get the best out of it.

3. No icons. But I did at first begin with IL2 on limited icons, then reduced the range, then had nothing. You would be amazed how much it trains you to recognise aircraft and it is so immersive. The books I`ve read on fighting aircraft all sound right when I fly no icons.

4. Patience, patience, patience. There is no better substitute to patience in training. Start your Mission, TAKOFF, FLY (feeling the little nuances of your plane, LOOK at your cockpit, even at your wings (know the girl). Then lookout for those tell tale signs of approaching fighters.

There`s lots more, but most people (especially the impatient ones) would have stopped reading by now. So to summarise, fly Offline in Campaign on Hard settings gradually reducing icon settings etc, then you`ll be ready to take on Humans at the recruit stage.

WOLFMondo
08-16-2004, 03:12 AM
What seafire says about gradually making the settings harder until full real is probably the best way to learn this sim.

I play lots of offline missions and QMB to practice although I've not played online for over a month. I've really lost enthusiasm for onwhine play.

I also made a map up for a quick DF which has all the planes out of one airfield and hundreds of ground targets and ships of all shapes and sizes for ground pounding practice on one of the Normandy maps.

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F19_Ob
08-16-2004, 03:34 AM
Good post bearcat99!



I do it in QMB.
I practise shooting with mg's and cannons separately, although i have both enabled for same trigger online. After about 1 hour with one plane I reach my peak-performance.

I try to hit at ranges greater about 400-500m.
with mg's i aim for the same wing on 300m.
With cannons I use single bops to determine the deflection better, I rarely do singlebops online.
This was a lot easier when i flew 109 and p40 only.
I fly almost all planes nowadays, and flex uncontrollably between them.
Although the mg's trajectory doesnt differ much between the planes , the feeling and twichyness(elevator) is a major factor, both on close range and above 300m.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

As u may know, I like doing tests of many kinds.
I do them also in qmb and every sortie is usually under 2 minutes. this is why I can do about 100 sorties fast, since it only takes about 200 minutes and if u add examining the tracks , about 500-600minutes, ...so, QMB is really quick.
--------------------------------------------------------

Hope many answers on your post....its always interesting to see how others do it.
thnx again http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Tully__
08-16-2004, 04:14 AM
For formal training sessions with a group, DF servers are the best. You can have all airfields set to available on any map for map familiarization sessions, you can refly easily if you mess up, depending on need it's really easy to change from air start to ground start or vice versa and so on.

For complex "set piece" tactics, coop style missions can be a great tool. It's quite eash to set up a half dozen scenarios that are nearly the same to train your team various contingency responses.

For solo training I use DF for practising manouvers (takeoff, landing, aerobatics), QMB for A2A gunnery & B&Z timing practice, coop for GA practice (happy ammo, happy fuel and heaps of targets) coz it allows you to set up a number of aircraft/takeoff choices in one mission file and single mission for navigation exercises.

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Maple_Tiger
08-16-2004, 04:47 AM
I do alot of gunnery practice in the QMB. In here i practice patience. Lining up a shop so that i fire a 2 second burst just before i reach convergence. Using unlimitted amo of course. This is not easy to do somtimes if you often fly differant planes.

I'll some times practice my poor bombing skills in the QMB.

Another good practice, is joining Goodknight in his DF room. I beleave he cleaned my clock 7 out of 10 time lol.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
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JG14_Josf
08-16-2004, 05:11 AM
QMB against 4 early IL2s to practice gunnery.

IL2's fly a predictable formation allowing me to choose the deflection angle.

I barrel roll from high side on the right, take a shot, then high side on the left, take a shot, aim for the cockpit, shoot one down, go to the next one.
No need for unlimmited ammo, no need to shoot them all down.
Use machine guns only, then cannon only, then both.
One session like that usually tunes me right back up.

As for training. I like to put the new guy, or rusty guy, leading the schwarm and have everyone else key on him and try to keep him alive in dog fight servers.

Dog fight servers like Greatergreen, Warclouds, Virtualpilots and any of the fuller realism ones resemble what I read in history books the most, so I don't fly anything else unless someone insists upon a coop or some other more scripted session.

I really like the variables in a dog fight server. It better simulates the chaos I read about concerning Air Combat in the real world so when the new guy or rusty one joins us it is like flying with the guys that had 10 hours training in the real war.

How did they keep those guys alive in the real war?

In a coop, it is easier to say to the new guy, OK avoid this area, the enemy will be here in 10 minutes.

In dog fight servers it is more likely that a wild card shows up and makes life really difficult.

Trying to keep the new guy alive becomes a real challenge.

In Christer Bergstrom's new book Graf & Grislawski a Pair of Aces; there are a few references about the new guys. I don't think the old hands could do much about keeping the new guys alive.

Dog fight servers are like that too.

The new guys learn pretty quick or they die a lot.

The old hands learn to fly much more conservative when trying to keep a new guy alive.

Thanks for the topic!

CD_Turbo
08-16-2004, 05:12 AM
Hello!

It's funny you all talk about skill being a good dogfighter but fail to mention Bombing!

I bet u guys can't hit a single tank with a 100 kg bomb 90% of the time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Or Bomb with the heinkel at high level with the Bomb sight and hit a column of cars consitently.

No the only way i have found out is to practise first off all alone in dogfight and see what basically the physics engine allows for tactics and trying out different planes.

But the otherside of the coin is really practising with your squadmates in online coops like 80 mission campaigns and having practise days in between.

Those practise days we use to try different tactics like bomber escorting and wingman tactics like drag and bag.

It's funny i see these dogfight rayban jockeys all the time in our campaigns die time after time because they aren't any good tacticians.

It never occurs to them that when 4 fighters are following one smoking enemy plane, 2 planes should gain some altitude and keep an eye out for incoming planes.
People who play dogfight the most it seems are the worst players because they never evolve as teamplayers from my experience.

CD_Turbo

SeaFireLIV
08-16-2004, 05:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CD_Turbo:

People who play dogfight the most it seems are the worst players because they never evolve as teamplayers from my experience.

CD_Turbo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have to agree to some degree.

Went on Warclouds the other day and was on a 109`s tail when I was shot down by his best friend. There were a couple of Spits nearby.

"Why didn`t anyone cover me? I asked"

"This is a dogfight server!" Some wazak replied. Dumb answer I thought.

"But it has objectives which means COOPERATION needed! Blue sure know how to COOP!" I replied, I was so annoyed I forgot to say "S!" to the LW flyer who shot me down.

But still the same kiddie answers. So left...

And came back with FOUR of my Squad mates so we could show them what cooperation really means! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It was nice.

OldMan____
08-16-2004, 05:25 AM
I find important to practice with with enemy planes. I fly FW190.. so I practce a lot with Spitfires and P51 in 4x6 AI ACE (4x"is harder than 4x1.. since in later all planes just make a line after you and you know where everyone is.. with fellows ..theenemy planes go around and attack you from more directions). Until I can understand how enemy think when flying. Also make this kind of training wiht my own selected plane at 100% fuel against 25% fuel enemy. Importatnt is to face AI not as AI.. but as you would a real pilot (so I never turn and bun with AI..even being easy to shot it down this way)


This does not help to counter inteligent maneuver from real pilots.. but helps a lot in situation awareness and keeping energy.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

LuckyBoy1
08-16-2004, 05:28 AM
Actually, in the end, try not to rely on dogfight seervers for more than getting the very basic bearing in this game. What we've ended up with is a gang who feels that the cover flights job is to let the enemy run out their ammo on the JABO or bombing group so they can swoop down for a safer and easier kill. I don't think I've won anything in a coop if the enemy bombers get through or ours don't. Unless it says my team won at the end of the coop, I've failed as a cover flight pilot. I hate to break the news to some around here, but if you are going to fly cover, you better get used to the idea that you are more expendable than the ground attack squad.

Now with an actual index & more fiber! It is newer & and even more improved! It's Luckyboy's Guide For Complete Users!...

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/luckyboy/LuckyboysGuide2.htm

Luckyboy = Senior hydraulic landing gear designer for the P-11 & Contributing Editor to Complete Users magazine.

609IAP_Recon
08-16-2004, 05:45 AM
I practice by flying offline and stacking the odds against me to teach how to make a quick kill and how to maintain alt adv.

I practice with squadron on team tactics and fundamentals.

Dogfighting in df servers is not very rewarding* - it's usually big furballs - so I prefer more realistic missions using coops. I especially like FR coops where dead is dead - no respawn, no watching - you are dead! I think these big dogfight servers teach you bad habits.


*(even the FBDaemon ones - I especially cannot stand the restarts every so often, everytime I climb to good alt the map restarts)

S!
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KSS_Shrike_UK
08-16-2004, 06:16 AM
on a non serios note...once i got chating with one of these kiddy team killers, he actually had a training program of how to TK and spawn kill. he would se up an offline co-op and test different bombs out to see the area of effect of the bombs on his teammates whilst in on the runway.
basically this guy would jump in whatever df server, pick a nice uber plane like LA73B, if ppl hacked him off he would intimidate them to get them to want to go after him then switch to a jet like BI-1 and fly to the sky out of reach (particularily effective on unlim fuel servers). then when bored he would join their team and drop bombs on runway killing anyone spawning near him.
fortunately i never saw him again. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

more serious note...for formal training, i dont beleive that AI is good enough for a squad to train against. its okay for if you have just a handful of pilots available at the time, but if you have as many as 8 pilots in the squad online, then 4v4 dogfight employing tactics and reviewing a track of the session afterwards on comms, is better training. The AI is too predictable. I author CO-OP missions, quite well known ones on Ubi called Vodkas. They typically have a team of 8 vs 50+ aircraft. commonly a few score 3000 and above. obviously in a df against humans you wouldnt get 30 kills normally before dying.

Shrike
Squadron Leader
Kindred Spirits Squadron
kss.dogfighters.net

PBNA-Boosher
08-16-2004, 06:48 AM
I pick my plane, usually one of these 4:

yak-1
Yak-1b
P-40
P-38

And then I place 4 friendly AI in the QMB. My goal is to down the enemy while using as little ammunition as possible, and improving my accuracy. Once I find the sweet spot for the aircraft I'm up against, I take myself and a wingman and fly against 4 average ENEMY planes. I always seem to find that my gunfire is more accurate when I'm flying against the enemy, for some reason... Then I upgrade the enemy's skill to veteran. And finally Ace status.

The best I think I've done is shoot down 3 Ace Japanese Zeros on my own in a Yak-1b when my wingman went kaput on the first pass. Damn that was some tough maneuvering though. I succumbed to the last guy. He got me and I belly landed the plane.

After I finish my training offline, I take my skills online and practice in DF servers. For ground pounding and all that stuff, I practice offline and use AAA as targets. They're pretty tough targets to take out with just guns! I also attack the armor in different planes on the Smolensk map flying for the Russians on the QMB. Try to take an IL2-3M and destroy not only every car and tank, but the train as well!

Boosher
_____________________________
"So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you..."
-Gandalf

Heavy_Weather
08-16-2004, 06:53 AM
great idea

"To fly a combat mission is not a trip under the moon. Every attack, every bombing is a dance with death."
- Serafima Amsova-Taranenko: Noggle, Ann (1994): A Dance with Death.

Bearcat99
08-16-2004, 07:01 AM
Tully seems to have gotten the gist of my point the best.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The great thing about the DF server for practice is not the DF itself but the ability to pick multiple AC, practice navigation, bombing, and flying all on one map without having to launch a new map every time.. good posts guys...

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IMMERSION BABY!!

x6BL_Brando
08-16-2004, 07:01 AM
I get my "practice" in by flying online, usually with a human wingie and possibly with other members of 6BL (at weekends). If anyone saw the recent TV program about training Spit pilots (in the Graces' two-seater) at the time of the Battle of Britain, you'll have noted that ten hours was the average 'hands on' time a trainee pilot got! I passed that figure a long time ago of course - a few years flying Camels and Se5a's in iEN's Dawn of Aces certainly notched up my flight-time - and 6BL migrated to the Eastern Front and the joys of HyperLobby @ the release of Sturmovik 1.0....
So I've settled on the Co-op mission and/or online campaign as my preferred 'career' - and I/we fly regularly against a tough & organised Staffel and try to hone our survival skills at the bleeding edge! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
For me, the best possible moment in any sortie is hearing the wheels scuff as I drop into a perfect three-pointer and then roll the Hurri or Spit towards the Officers' Mess as quickly as is decent!
(The steward keeps a bottle of single-malt under the bar for me - a fitting, if sadly infrequent, finish to the most important part of any flight, in my considered opinion. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) If I've left a trail of destruction behind me so much the better, and that might call for large ones all round and to hell with the bar-bill, but it's the getting home that counts for me! More often one of us gets shot up and then the other(s) will try to get him back over the lines to safety. That's a training in itself; calling for self-control and vigilance along with an unselfish attitude - especially when there are juicy targets in range! We play it by ear but the general principle remains......guard your wing men, your life may depend on it!