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View Full Version : wasnt the 190 known for being an excellent turner at low altitude?



raaaid
07-27-2006, 08:00 AM
im not sure where i got this from but i think the only disadvantage of the 190 was its engine not prepared for high altitudes but it seemed to be a bee

it was also known for its excellent visibility although not in the case of being piloted by a dwarf

well but if the game is this way reality must be wrong

IIJG69_Kartofe
07-27-2006, 08:06 AM
Not "exellent" but good and ONLY @ high speed.

If yo read in a book the 190 was a good turner @ low speed close it forever ... Etc ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

danjama
07-27-2006, 08:08 AM
yea good at high speed turning, but it also had amazing speed retention in real life

Kuna_
07-27-2006, 08:13 AM
This "turning" thing is such an issue in this game while it wasn't so in real life.

I mean I'm in good physical condition but I doubt that I would be able to endure 2-3 of such hilarious high speed turns+rolls (P-51 on +550kp/h in vertical dive and sharp turn up anyone http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).
In game on "realistic" settings you can perform these as long as you have fuel to keep your engine running.
In real life it is really hard to endure high cornering with car on high speed on elevated highway (ups and downs). And we are talking about 150-200kp/h and difference in altitude of around 100m.
As we all know in game these figures are around 350-400kp/h (often more) and around 1000m (also often more) in alt (those crazy ears http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).
Makes a man to wonder about certain things.

I hope this issue will be solved (adressed in a proper way) in SoW.

WOLFMondo
07-27-2006, 08:13 AM
raaaid, virtual 190 pilots make do with what they have and most of them enjoy the 190's, its a fun plane to fly and rewarding when you do well in it. Visibility out the front ain't too great but all round vision is good and once you learn its quirks and blind deflection shooting, they are awesome aircraft.

BBB_Hyperion
07-27-2006, 08:34 AM
190 had light controls even at high speed. 109 not nor compareable spitfire or other planes. The stick forces and the ability to pull will be looked into ,) . So it can easily be that turning with a 190 was still possible even when other planes were theoreticaly able to turn better it depended on pilots physical condition of the other plane then. Not like ingame where you make turn after turn in non favorable high g load position for hours.

Xiolablu3
07-27-2006, 08:54 AM
The 190 excells at all things but turning circle at low speed.

Kurt Tank saw the future of airplane combat and rather than the manouvrable, dogfight, biplane style combat which had gone beore, he forsaw than combat would be hi speed slashing attacks where the slower manouvrable planes could not even get a shot at the fast attacking planes, who would hit and run.

B&Z is almost totally safe, unless the enemy gets a lucky shot in. Therefore the 190 is designed with this in mind, able to hit very hard and escape very fast.

Twisty, turny, TnB dogfights are very dangerous to all parties. AIr combat was moving away from this style of fighting, altghough of course its nice if you can retain both speed AND turning.

The FW190 was made with the princple of the fast B&Z energy fighter in mind and it caused havoc with the slower Spitfire mkV's in the channel in 1941/42. The SPit V's could do nothing as the FW190's sliced through their formations, picking a few off at a time with their massive firepower. As soon as the Spitfire manouvrability started to tell, the FW190's would dive away, again leaving the SPitfires behind. These tactics inflicted heavy loses to the RAF in 1941/42 over the channel.

It wasn't until the Spitfire IX and later came along that the Spitfire could fight with the same tactics as the 190 and give it a taste of its own medicine, whilst also being able to turn.

The FW190 could always dive faster than the Spitfire tho, one advantage it always retained.

WOLFMondo
07-27-2006, 09:53 AM
It could dive faster initially but the Spits wing has a higher mach number, so it would eventually in theory, catch up and overtake.

faustnik
07-27-2006, 10:01 AM
Roll rate has a big effect on "turn". The Fw190 could enter a turn much more quickly than the opposition so, it would have the initial turn advantage. It retained this advantage over all Spitfires, even the clip wing, throughout the war.

Form reading a lot of Fw190 pilot accounts, it sure sounds like dogfighting the later (MkIX on) Spitfires was not something the Fw190 pilots preferred to do. The Fw190s would try to drag all USAAF fighters into low altitude dogfights because the LW pilots felt that they had an advantage over all the US types there. When Spitfires showed up however, it was a different story.

This is a great thread topic! There is a lot of confusion surrounding this issue.

Xiolablu3
07-27-2006, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by faustnik:
Roll rate has a big effect on "turn". The Fw190 could enter a turn much more quickly than the opposition so, it would have the initial turn advantage. .


I am getting better at using this as a defensive tactic these days, just a while ago I made a Spitfire stall and crash by flicking back and forth in a kind of scissors manouvre, using my superior roll rate to totally bemuse him.

I am finding that the more you learn as a pilot, the more you value roll rate. I didnt see a big value in it when I first started, much preferring turning circle, but as I learn more manouvres, I am really starting to see the advatage from having a very fast roll rate.

Another time when roll rate is invaluable is when you look behind you and se an enemy plane closing in for the kill. Twice tonight I was able to flick over and pull back under him before he could pull nough lead and I escaped.

Any other plane I would have been dead meat as there is no manouvre that you can pull of as quick as a 'flick over and dive' in the FW190. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Faust, are you having any login trouble over at CWOS forums? Today my login and pass dont seem to work anymore?

Viper2005_
07-27-2006, 01:35 PM
The Spitfire's high tactically useful Mach number simply allowed its pilot to retain control in steep dives for longer than the pilot of (for example) a Fw-190.

The Fw-190 would out dive the Spitfire for as long as the pilot kept the nose down; fly to fast and recovery might be impossible. But it'd beat the Spitfire to terra firma by a fair old margin.

The difference amounts to something between 0.1 and 0.05 M if memory serves, which is roughly between 30 and 60 mph at altitude. The margins were slim!

Incidently, Eric Brown points out in Wings of the Luftwaffe that the Fw-190's elevators were heavy at all speeds, and above 350 mph they were heavy enough to impose a tactical restriction upon recovery from low altitude dives...

OTOH, the ailerons were light from the stall up to 400 mph, above which speed they too became heavy.

Brown considers that it was the Fw-190's control harmony, rather than the performance of the individual controls which made it an excellent gun platform.

It is worth pointing out however, that the dive comparison between the Fw-190 and Spitfire IX so frequently posted refers to an A4 at 2700 rpm/1.42 ata vs a Spitfire IX fitted with Merlin 61 running at 3000 rpm/+15 psi boost, which is rather a different animal from the Merlin 66 version we have in game.

faustnik
07-27-2006, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

Faust, are you having any login trouble over at CWOS forums? Today my login and pass dont seem to work anymore?

No, it's OK for me, that's wierd. Try again, if it is still messed, up I'll PM Cardinal.

faustnik
07-27-2006, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:

It is worth pointing out however, that the dive comparison between the Fw-190 and Spitfire IX so frequently posted refers to an A4 at 2700 rpm/1.42 ata vs a Spitfire IX fitted with Merlin 61 running at 3000 rpm/+15 psi boost, which is rather a different animal from the Merlin 66 version we have in game.

Do you mean the 1942 tests at Farnborough? I was under the impression that these comparison were done with Faber's A3? Much of the testing was done with a limit of 2400rpm@1.32ata for the A3 once the RAF figured out that the particular a/c was derated. So, 190 power levels in that comparison might be a question too.

horseback
07-27-2006, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by IIJG69_Kartofe:
Not "exellent" but good and ONLY @ high speed.

If yo read in a book the 190 was a good turner @ low speed close it forever ... Etc ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif well, except for the ones with wooden tails...

cheers

horseback

sudoku1941
07-27-2006, 09:23 PM
NO, the FW190 is not a turn and burner.

It has a good instantaneous turn rate, which is good for about a third of a circle. After that, it turns like a truck. And yes, it tends to turn better at high speeds, but then, one tends to turn, and sustain a turn rate at ever lower speeds.

Turning is NOT how you fight with a FW190. You use the vertical and its fantastic roll rate in combination to effect fast changes in direction; not yanking on the stick in a energy bleeding flat turn.

PikeBishop
07-28-2006, 05:26 AM
Dear All,
With regard to the turning ability of the FW190 and the roll rate, there are a number of factors to be considered. The first major point is that once you are above a speed of 350mph or so, the advantage of the more manoeuverable types is lost, because the max 'g' that can be pulled at this speed is anywhere between 9'g' for less manoeuverable aircraft and 30'g' for the more manoeuverable aircraft. Since the average pilot blacks out at 5 or 6'g' and the airframe would not take more than 10'g' at best, then this is of no use to anybody. Couple this with a machine that was as light on the controls and responsive at these speeds as the Fw190 was, then you are on to a winner. Pilot fatigue would be much less of a problem so pilots could fight for longer without tiring. On top of this there was the higher energy retention and acceleration which compensated somewhat for the lack of power above 20,000ft of the radial engined models. So all in all the 190 was a great aircraft if the speeds were kept up and one concentrated on slashing attacks. When the Fw190D came out pilots were even better off at altitude.
Best regards,
SLP