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steamer837
05-08-2006, 07:48 PM
Sounds like Team Xbox will have a piece of Rainbow footage up tonight...

IGN already has a clip up. It's looking ridiculous, especially for how far out it is.

Spec260
05-08-2006, 08:18 PM
damn the third person camera shows people around corners.... I thought they would have made it only show people when your exposeing your self leaning out. I dont mind it like that for single player but if its the same for multiplayer then I can only imagine wall campers.

Hobbez245
05-08-2006, 11:56 PM
If that 3rd person thing is in multiplayer the game will flop

Hatchetforce
05-09-2006, 04:51 AM
Two things before anyone gets their panties in a wad. 3rd person works in GRAW on the 360. The majority of gamers prefer it.

Toggle. Sound familiar? Toggle it off. Since when is having a choice bad.

Here is where people get mad. They will play the game and a lot of people will run a room with 3rd person enabled. Some people will complain that other gamers, probably the majority, will not be forced to do what they themselves prefer. Think about that. You want other gamers to be forced to your choices instead of being able to choose for themselves? If they choose 3rd person and run their own rooms, you have zero right to complain if most gamers enjoy something different from yourself.

Ubi has been constantly hammered for not giving the majority of gamers what they want. They were assailed repeatedly with "Most gamers want this or that."

Be prepared for the fact that most gamers might want the 3rd person. Just don't expect everyone to be forced to play the way you want. If you run your own 1st person only room and no one joins, you need to be mature enough to accept the fact that when given a choice, most gamers might choose something other than what you want.

F0NZARELLI
05-09-2006, 06:31 AM
I agree with you Hatchet, the majority of players want 3d person. Unfortunately, I am not one of them. I want original Rainbow, the same way I want original Ghost Recon, with improved graphics and new content. Sadly, it seems, like this will not happen. So, I guess it's time for old-timers, like myself, to move on.

Speaking of which, when are you going to announce that game you've been corroborating on?

Hobbez245
05-09-2006, 09:55 AM
I am one that likes 3rd person for GRAW but for multiplayer it RUINS it. If someone wants 3rd go to GRAW but atleast have rainbow the classic first person. Every site i go to it says welcome rainbow back the explosive FIRST PERSON SHOOTER. This 3rd person **** they added means it isnt first person anymore (not all of it). Ubi don't you get it. Go to gamebattles, teamcompete, etc where matches are played and most people are getting sick of your noob friendly games. You had 2 great series and ruined both.

Recon was about quick shot and no auto aim but you add 3rd person and ruined that. Rainbow was about quick shot, strats, sound, etc...and if 3rd person is in that you ruined it as well. Just please have that off in multiplayer. And don't say "we will give an option" or "it adds to tactikal gameplay". IT RUINS TACTIKAL GAMEPLAY. Thats it. Your games are all about judging a book by its cover but lately when people start reading they realize the book is pretty shallow.

Nomad_381
05-09-2006, 10:29 AM
Whatever the case, Gamebattles and TC and any other comp. gaming site will almost surely require matches to be played with 3rd person off, so anyone who wants to play competitively will play that way as well.

Just hope that you can somehow filter out 3rd person matches when you go looking for a game.

Hobbez245
05-09-2006, 12:08 PM
Best solution no 3rd person in multiplayer

cre8nhavoc
05-09-2006, 01:51 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

What video is this?! I have only seen the CGI film!

Hatchetforce
05-09-2006, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by Hobbez245:
Best solution no 3rd person in multiplayer

That just loses fans. You want everyone to be forced to your preference. If enough people like no Third Person View, you should have plenty of players. If there is almost no one left that likes First Person only, then you need to be mature enough to accept the facts.

It is financial suicide to make a title that only caters to a minority of people. I am not saying your preference is a minority, but you should be able to accept the facts if they do not go your way rather than asking devs to shove your preference and yours alone onto all players.

Why are people afraid of a choice. Not of the 3rd person view, but why fear a choice? Are you concerned you will be left alone? That is called majority rule. Only here it is better that both minority AND majority are serviced.

When a game company provides choices rather than narrow approaches, they please more people and thus sell more titles. This equals a follow up. Selfishness that doesn't want other players to have a choice that will not affect you will help kill sales and a series.

Hatchetforce
05-09-2006, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by cre8nhavoc:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

What video is this?! I have only seen the CGI film!

The chopper ride is rendered with the game engine. Think how Mitchell rode in GRAW and then hopped out. There you go.

Spec260
05-09-2006, 03:56 PM
Id prefer no third person at all but if its going to happen then I hope...

That they make it only in singleplayer

Make it not show enemys around the corner when your taking cover. Have enemys appear as you come out exposeing your self but from the video it seems this is not how it is.

Have the option for the host can have it on or off and a filter to find servers only with your preference.

And for clan matches, its not a choice its off.

Hatchet said it works in GRAW but I think he forgot graw was outdoors, r6 vegas is going to be alleys and hallways indoors. The corner camping will be much worse than in graw. People will just go on a corner of a hallway and wait in third person for someone to come running down and then pop out and snap shot them. How fair is that? How fun will that be?

I highly doubt that many people will not buy the game if its not put in. The majority of the game will be in first person not third person. I dont think people will be buying the game on the fact you can wallhump and corner camp...


But really I dont mind if its put in just as long as I can filter out the servers that allow it. Like hatchet said the player hosting the server should have the right to run the server how he wants. But the ones joining should also have the right to filter out the ones they dont want to join.

K00LAID-MAN
05-09-2006, 04:16 PM
If anyone thinks that 3rd person is the best or most popular I would like to point out that Halo2, RB6, RB6:BA and Counterstrike are all FPS and pretty much ruled the top 10 of XboxLive. The 3rd person view for taking cover should stay in the SINGLE player game but should be removed for MP. This style works in GRAW but it won't in a faster paced game like RB6. Notice the PC version of GRAW is in 1st person not 3rd.

Hobbez245
05-09-2006, 05:47 PM
3rd person may add a few sells at the beginning but first person makes the game last longer AND more sales in the future.

en4rcment
05-11-2006, 04:11 PM
First off the in game vid from IGN was incredible. The most colors and detailed objects that I've seen in a game. XBOX 360 (and soon PS3) visuals are blowing away what my computer can do right now, and it would cost more to upgrade the computer.

About the 3rd person view. A toggle option would be the best...and a server option for MP would be necessary (so that everyone was using the same view). Whether or not you agree, the OTS method is becoming incredibly popular in console gaming. Look at the huge success of the SOCOM series. Alot of players like to see their character and all of the cool animations that they do. It also make seeking cover and concealment a bit easier as you can actually see if your character is exposed or not.

So far, I am super-impressed with this video and seriously considering an Xbox 360 purchase in the near future...

Just remember when you speak your opinion, you don't speak for everyone. Some gamers like one thing...some like another...

Include both options to make everyone happy.

kgetz3
05-11-2006, 07:36 PM
Well Hatchet I'm sure you won't argue with the fact that R6 is a TACTICAL SHOOTER.

Let me get the definition for you:

tacā·tiā·cal Audio pronunciation of "tactical" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tkt-kl)
adj.

1. Of, relating to, or using tactics.
2.
1. Of, relating to, used in, or involving military or naval operations that are smaller, closer to base, and of less long-term significance than strategic operations.
2. Carried out in support of military or naval operations: tactical bombing.
3. Characterized by adroitness, ingenuity, or skill.

3rd person does not require half as much skill as 1st person.

3rd person = easy Thats why the casual gamer prefers it.

They should just rename it an "EASY SHOOTER"

Disgraceful.

kgetz3
05-11-2006, 07:41 PM
Hatchet to me it sounds like you want Ubi to become EA.

Why because EA trys to please everyone but guess what?!?! There games ****ing suck(Not counting sports).

flskins1970
05-12-2006, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by Kgetz3:
Hatchet to me it sounds like you want Ubi to become EA.

Why because EA trys to please everyone but guess what?!?! There games ****ing suck(Not counting sports).

Well, even their sports games sucked for the 360 because they rushed them out. Their servers suck as well and totally ruined a good clan game (BF2) with their **** servers. UBI, don't fall into the everyone likes it trap!

Hatchetforce
05-12-2006, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by Kgetz3:
Well Hatchet I'm sure you won't argue with the fact that R6 is a TACTICAL SHOOTER.

Let me get the definition for you:

tacā·tiā·cal Audio pronunciation of "tactical" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tkt-kl)
adj.

1. Of, relating to, or using tactics.
2.
1. Of, relating to, used in, or involving military or naval operations that are smaller, closer to base, and of less long-term significance than strategic operations.
2. Carried out in support of military or naval operations: tactical bombing.
3. Characterized by adroitness, ingenuity, or skill.

3rd person does not require half as much skill as 1st person.

3rd person = easy Thats why the casual gamer prefers it.

They should just rename it an "EASY SHOOTER"

Disgraceful.

I have probably kicked as many doors as you have walked through. Tactics are inherent in every game to some degree. And the viewpoint has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with it. SA, Situational Awareness is one of the key tools an operator uses to keep himslf and his Team alive. It is missiing to a vast degree in FP view titles. As are the real world aiming mechanics.

But you ignore the facts and provide a definition which does little except bolster my point. Thanks for the assistance. You lack perception because you believe that SA which is available in 3rd Person removes the 3rd part of the definition when in fact it allows it. It promotes it. It brings a very realistic factor to the table.

As I have said on countless occasions, if you think that having the standard FP view makes a game tactical, then you are simply furthering the evidence that you know nothing about real world mechanics of CQC.

The bottom line is this. 3rd person isn't leaving the console version. You can continue to waste your time with these head banging posts but it isn't coming out. And it isn't leaving MP either. In fact, it is very likely the console version will go completely 3rd person with no auto toggle. The PC will likely go either all 1st Person or all 3rd Person as well with no choice and no auto toggle.

And if you are referring to the PC version, then read the page as you are in the wrong forum.

Hobbez245
05-12-2006, 10:29 AM
Hatchet, you try to sound all smart yet you really make no point at all.

Fact is 3rd person makes the game take less skill. People with slow shots or no smarts have a chance with it. That is common sense. So with 3rd person, the game is less tactical. Even if I liked 3rd person that is the TRUTH.

How you talk and act on these forums it is obvious you either just play optimatch all day or you are in a clan that plays very few if any matches. If you played on TC (when active) or Gamebattles, you would see what we are talking about.

We play this game at a whole other level than you so you cannot comprehend any of this. Just for fun...did/do you play black arrow or original rainbow six? If so, what gun do you use? What is your favorite map? If you played matches, what is the best team you played? Please answer honestly.

Hatchetforce
05-12-2006, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Hobbez245:
Hatchet, you try to sound all smart yet you really make no point at all.

Fact is 3rd person makes the game take less skill. People with slow shots or no smarts have a chance with it. That is common sense. So with 3rd person, the game is less tactical. Even if I liked 3rd person that is the TRUTH.

How you talk and act on these forums it is obvious you either just play optimatch all day or you are in a clan that plays very few if any matches. If you played on TC (when active) or Gamebattles, you would see what we are talking about.

We play this game at a whole other level than you so you cannot comprehend any of this. Just for fun...did/do you play black arrow or original rainbow six? If so, what gun do you use? What is your favorite map? If you played matches, what is the best team you played? Please answer honestly.

And your ignorant opinion makes it obvious you have never had to enter a room and be fired at and shoot back taking people down. You have acted like a crybaby on these forums so it is useless to backpeddle now.

Been there, done that countless times, got the T shirt. FP view only people said the same thing about GRAW on the 360. After getting their butts handed to them countless times by people using tactics that had skill, most changed their mind and realize that 1 - it doesn't have any less realism than 1st Person, and 2 - It is a blast to play. You can make assumptions about what I game all day long - which is mostly VBS1 - but you are wrong. Obviously wrong.

Best of all you lose. This thing isn't changing. Most of the gamers will get what they want from the console version and you won't. Feel free to sign off and go cry in the corner. You have brought nothing to this forum, nothing to the community but tantrums arguments and well, tantrums and arguments. Have a nice cry kid.

Hobbez245
05-12-2006, 10:58 AM
1) My team played GRAW. We hated 3rd person but we played it. We went 46-4 playing ALL the top teams. We even had 3 teams get to the final 16 in the best buy tournament (out of over a thousand teams) however 2 of us were in the same bracket so only 2 made it to the final 8 and that is where we played eachother again... So only one of our teams made it to the finals. In FACT yesterday was the finals match and my team won (they won a $25,000 car and $5,000 in cash) so don't even question our skill.

2) You are bragging about going into a room and being fired at? Congrats...I don't care...I just enjoy playing games that take skill...

3) You act like you are some amazing player with an amazing team yet I have NEVER heard of you. I have played on Teamcompete, Gamebattles, etc and have never seen you OR your team win ANYTHING. What have you done if you guys are so good?

4) No back peddling here. From the start and to the end I will prefer first person over 3rd any day not becuase I dont think one looks cooler than the other...I just prefer that when you see someone they see you. I don't care if one is not realistic or if its dumb or whatever. I enjoy a game where if you can see them they can see you and vice versa.

kgetz3
05-12-2006, 11:33 AM
Hatchet in real life to gain the SA you have to expose yourself to fire(FP) or use a device. In 3rd person you do not have to expose yourself.


Now onto what Hobbez has said. My team and his team are 2 of the best console R6/BA teams ever.

Also when it comes to GRAW, Hobbez team Hammer and Anvil WON THE BEST BUY TOURNAMENT and they will probably win the UBISOFT SPONSERED GAMEBATTLES TOURNAMENT. (Unfortunately my team wasn't able to participate in either :'( )

So don't even talk to us about having skills in games.

Also I would like to hear the GRAW dev team state the reasons for you being able to lean against walls and corners and 3rd/shoot over then in SP but not in MP. I wouldnt be surprise if they reasons were it being to easy, or it slowing the game down too much, etc.

Hatchetforce
05-12-2006, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Kgetz3:
<span class="ev_code_RED">Hatchet in real life to gain the SA you have to expose yourself to fire(</span>FP) or use a device. In 3rd person you do not have to expose yourself.


Now onto what Hobbez has said. My team and his team are 2 of the best console R6/BA teams ever.

Also when it comes to GRAW, Hobbez team Hammer and Anvil WON THE BEST BUY TOURNAMENT and they will probably win the UBISOFT SPONSERED GAMEBATTLES TOURNAMENT. (Unfortunately my team wasn't able to participate in either :'( )

So don't even talk to us about having skills in games.

Also I would like to hear the GRAW dev team state the reasons for you being able to lean against walls and corners and 3rd/shoot over then in SP but not in MP. I wouldnt be surprise if they reasons were it being to easy, or it slowing the game down too much, etc.

No this is wrong. The most common form of SA comes in the peripheral view exercised during movement or static postioning. While the corner peeking that occurs in 3rd person views is a form of SA, it is just the tip of the iceberg. SA is a constant whether there are enemiy preparing to fire or not. And 1st person view does not encompass this while to some degree 3rd person over compensates - as in corners.

Beating the drum about the realism of 1st person view and then switching to "I just prefer it" is backpeddling. And once again, if 3rd person GRAW takes no skill, there are a lot of 1st personites that were soundly thumped by no skill players.

The point I am trying to make, and it has fallen on mostly deaf ears is that none of the views is wholly realistic. There are just as many holes in 1st person view as the are in 3rd person. Some issues are more serious than others.

It is just a game and what my earlier posts show is that a larger audience is being served with 3ed person. This is not VBS1 made for the military. This is a game. Anytime gameplay runs afoul of realism, gameplay must take center stage. I could talk about realism all day long but to no avail. Mainly because...it's just a game but also it would be worthless as some people have their blinders on and they want what they want. There would be no problem with that except it would actually be detrimental to sales to serve a few wants rather than the public at large.

GRAW has set a clear marker over what people want in a tac title right now. More people will be drawn in by the demonstrated modes than by 1st Person alone. After all, it's just a game.

Having gamed GRAW prior to release at RSE, I can say that one of the reasons for not sticking to walls was that when someone rushed around corners, people were repeatedly dying trying to unstick themselves to turn and fight the person that surprised them. Using the GRAW MP lean function allows you to lean and still pivot under fire without scrambling for a button. You can't pop out or over, but you don't die stuck either.

All of this is as I have said moot. The console version, which is what this forum concerns had 3rd person now, and will ship with it.

UNtOUChAbl3
05-12-2006, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Hatchetforce:
Two things before anyone gets their panties in a wad. 3rd person works in GRAW on the 360. The majority of gamers prefer it.

Toggle. Sound familiar? Toggle it off. Since when is having a choice bad.

Here is where people get mad. They will play the game and a lot of people will run a room with 3rd person enabled. Some people will complain that other gamers, probably the majority, will not be forced to do what they themselves prefer. Think about that. You want other gamers to be forced to your choices instead of being able to choose for themselves? If they choose 3rd person and run their own rooms, you have zero right to complain if most gamers enjoy something different from yourself.

Ubi has been constantly hammered for not giving the majority of gamers what they want. They were assailed repeatedly with "Most gamers want this or that."

Be prepared for the fact that most gamers might want the 3rd person. Just don't expect everyone to be forced to play the way you want. If you run your own 1st person only room and no one joins, you need to be mature enough to accept the fact that when given a choice, most gamers might choose something other than what you want.
Thats were your wrong. The only reason it is successful is because its one of the only shooters out there. And for a lot of the guys who plays these games for competition (clan matches and playoffs) its not a success because of the third person. it makes matches drawn out and impossible at times. This game wont compete with previous games of the rainbow series if it is 3rd person!

Hobbez245
05-12-2006, 03:24 PM
Hatchet...

Just becuase it is your opinion doesn't mean it is right.

1) Only reason GRAW is doing well is becuase there is not one other decent shooter out. If there was a GOOD fps out I would have not bought GRAW along with MANY others.

2) You want the game to **** around...we want it to play matches. **** around = 3rd person better. Matches = 1st person better.

theeraserhe1979
05-13-2006, 01:07 AM
Third person is a complete give away. For one, it takes the realism and makes the game more arcadey. Sucks! I prefer Ghost Recon 3 in First person but was forced to use 3rd cause I have to gain the same advantage as the others. All my Black Arrown friends have already given up on this game.

Please Ubi, please use First Person. I miss multiplayer style like Black Arrow. The only differences I want are better graphics, more gadgets, and fewer bugs. Nothing more.

Please don't fix what isn't broken. That's all I ask. Thank you.

theeraserhe1979
05-13-2006, 01:13 AM
It's hard to believe that most gamers perfer 3rd person, when I've spoke to so many and many prefer 1st person. I don't see a lot of successful games that run on 3rd person.

Yeah, you can toggle back to 1st person but will the other do the same? It would be a disadvante to me and advantage to them.

Sorry, but I don't buy your comments that most gamers perfer 3rd person view. I still have to hear one who plays Black Arrown and Ghost Recon 3 that they do.

theeraserhe1979
05-13-2006, 01:23 AM
UBI please don't fail me. This game is doing great, but 3rd person will completely turn me off. Thank you.

Ghost Recon is fast becoming tiring since it's all about running out there and shooting versus tactics and ability to out smart gamers. I'm raking a lot of kills. That's all because of 3rd person. I like it until I get tired of using it. All the fun of not being "seen" is gone. There's no point being around a corner cause you can always be seen. The most of my option is to mainly run and shoot. Sure I'll be around the corners but not too long. Then it becomes too fast paced and too arcadey. Tactical options are limited.

Please bring back the Black Arrown style of gameplay. Please don't kill what made this game so popular and don't believe this **** about most gamers wanting 3rd person. Honestly, I barely hear anyone wanting third person. Most gamers don't care about either view. But comparing who wants and who doesn't want 3rd person, I believe those who don't far outweighs the other side.

theeraserhe1979
05-13-2006, 01:29 AM
I hope the www.teamxbox.com (http://www.teamxbox.com) forum below (link) can convince you to go First Person all the way.

http://news.teamxbox.com/comments/10960/Rainbow-Six-Vegas-Footage/

theeraserhe1979
05-13-2006, 01:41 AM
Both views have faults, but I prefer 1st person over the 3rd, cause I simply don't see myself walking in real life in 3rd person view. This is simply common sense. Don't listen to these *******es. There is a reason why Doom 3, Quake 4, Half-Life 2, F.E.A.R., Operation Flaspoint (mostly set at first person), counterstrike, and many others are popular. Most games that are 3rd person oriented don't make it as high.

theeraserhe1979
05-13-2006, 01:44 AM
In addition, take the Rankings off, I prefer learning my skill and not the computer learning for me. It complicates things and it's gets frustrating when having to challenge someone with a higher rank on a regular game. It's not fail to those who just started. Turn it off, I prefer learning to shoot more accurately - that's where the fun is!!!

en4rcment
05-13-2006, 10:47 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Any reason you needed six posts to explain yourself? There is an edit button so you could have made one large post to throw your opinions into.

There are also more appropriate threads to express your dislike of 3rd person view. It's really getting old though. Every thread is becoming a soapbox for anti-3rd person view gamers...

There are alot more aspects of this game to discuss. Let's try another game issue please...

RoM_Mafia
05-21-2006, 01:34 PM
Well, i play graw, and im in a top clan on Gamebattles and Hatchet i can speak for the majority that the only reason people prefer 3rd person on graw is because how bad 1st person is on it.

RoM_Mafia
05-21-2006, 01:35 PM
And it puts you at a disadvantage becaue of campers using the third person behind rocks and what not and that gets everyone mad, so look on gamebattles on Last man standing y everyone hates campers.

Shishkarob
05-21-2006, 03:01 PM
I honestly dont think the majority does want 3rd person. I think you guys are assuming everyone wants third person since the whole thing over ghost recon. This is a different game i dont think any of the people who have played this game want third person.

Darth_SS
05-21-2006, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by Hobbez245:

2) You are bragging about going into a room and being fired at? Congrats...I don't care...I just enjoy playing games that take skill...



Well, just bouncing off of that for a second...

1) The way you're describing "this is how you should need skill" makes it sound like you honestly believe that people should have to train to be good. At a video game. Grand majority of the population doesn't care about this as much as you do. And, doesn't the idea of training just to be competent at a video game sound a bit extreme to you?

2) You don't want a game that needs skill. You want a game that requires you do a very small number of things how you would do them. You view yourself as some kind of perfection, or what playing R6 should be. You want a game that conforms to some small-minded set of standards, and honestly believe that people should follow this series fanatically if they are to enjoy themselves. Judging by your earlier statements, you don't want a game that involves skill. You want a game tailor made to your "skills." You are scared you might actually have to change and adapt to a new game.

3) Seeing as how what Hatchet does is the basis for the R6 games, and the Ghost Recon franchise...yah. I'd say he has a right to be bringing that up. It is relevant. He can provide true insight as to what "realism" is, and judging from all of his posts, he is certainly a smart enough person to judge markets and consumer desire. I think the problem here is that Hatchet reminds you of the folly of what you are doing. I.E. Claiming you are the model of Ubi's target consumer, and then subsequently arguing with someone over what people want. Someone who's specifically gone out and done their research on this point.


General note about this whole 3rd person debate?

Many of the "haters of 3rdP" are elitists. They love to be outcast, and they love the idea that they are the few people who play R6 "right." Most of these people derive more than amusement from R6. They fufill some desire to be a soldier, that they wouldn't fufill normally because they are afraid to die. Most of rest prefer to regard Rainbow Six with some level of awe, and are proud of the "mythos" of it being different. A very small number just enjoy the game and believe that Ubisoft is going in a less enjoyable direction.

Now, before I get the usual "You're wrong! You suck!" I would just like to say this: I am a 3rd year psychology major at the UofC. I'm second highest in my class. I'm planning to use this forum for my thesis.