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View Full Version : A better way to simulate High G structual damage.



FatBoyHK
01-07-2005, 03:44 PM
Tonight I broke my wing when I was getting my third kills in a sorties... Obviously I am quite disappointed.... I swear to god I really move my stick slowly... But actually, no matter how slow I move the stick, if I defect my stick to a certain degree, and given I have enough speed, I will break my wing anyway.

No, this is not a whine post. Wing should break in high g, and we have this simulated realistically in this game. (OK, it is debatable, but this is not my point).

however, i think oleg didn't simulated it completely, and that is why some people think some planes, especially Mustang, is being intentionally porked.

Suppose you pull your stick slowly when you are in very high speed, Before you can possibly break a wing, you should first heard something strange, like stressing a high tension wire... then if you keep pulling your stick, the sound become somethings like twisting metal, and you know it is bad. Keep pulling, and the wing will break.

Some game, like Janes WWII fighter, have this kind of effect. And I think it is way more realistic than keeping your wing in one moment and then losing it in the very next moment. The "critical" stick force is difficult to predict, it is related to your speed, your stick sensitivity, trim, etc... In real life pilot don't predict in this way, instead they will use their feeling toward G pull, and the "response" their plane to giving out. G pull can't be simulated in this game, all we can do is a black screen, but you can't feel precisely how strong the pull is. The plane's response to G, on the other hand, is very easy to simulate.

Progressive damage model can be done, but it may be a bit too much to Oleg... So why don't we suggest, let say, a "tension wire" sound when I reach 80% of of my plabe's G limit, "twisting metal" sound at 90%, and, of course, a broken wing at 100% ? By this way I think most of us would have no problem keep our wing intact... and if someone do break his wing, this would be no more excuse.

FatBoyHK
01-07-2005, 03:44 PM
Tonight I broke my wing when I was getting my third kills in a sorties... Obviously I am quite disappointed.... I swear to god I really move my stick slowly... But actually, no matter how slow I move the stick, if I defect my stick to a certain degree, and given I have enough speed, I will break my wing anyway.

No, this is not a whine post. Wing should break in high g, and we have this simulated realistically in this game. (OK, it is debatable, but this is not my point).

however, i think oleg didn't simulated it completely, and that is why some people think some planes, especially Mustang, is being intentionally porked.

Suppose you pull your stick slowly when you are in very high speed, Before you can possibly break a wing, you should first heard something strange, like stressing a high tension wire... then if you keep pulling your stick, the sound become somethings like twisting metal, and you know it is bad. Keep pulling, and the wing will break.

Some game, like Janes WWII fighter, have this kind of effect. And I think it is way more realistic than keeping your wing in one moment and then losing it in the very next moment. The "critical" stick force is difficult to predict, it is related to your speed, your stick sensitivity, trim, etc... In real life pilot don't predict in this way, instead they will use their feeling toward G pull, and the "response" their plane to giving out. G pull can't be simulated in this game, all we can do is a black screen, but you can't feel precisely how strong the pull is. The plane's response to G, on the other hand, is very easy to simulate.

Progressive damage model can be done, but it may be a bit too much to Oleg... So why don't we suggest, let say, a "tension wire" sound when I reach 80% of of my plabe's G limit, "twisting metal" sound at 90%, and, of course, a broken wing at 100% ? By this way I think most of us would have no problem keep our wing intact... and if someone do break his wing, this would be no more excuse.

ouston
01-07-2005, 05:40 PM
An interesting point here but I am not sure what the course of events might be. A high G manouevre in a WWII period fighter is likely to be accompanied by a lot of noise. From accounts I have read aircraft could come back with some nasty wrinkles that were just short of structural failure. These were not noticed by pilots until they got home. I don't know if catastrophic failure would be indicated by any sort of noise before it happened, or any noise the pilot could hear above the engine. I doubt many people on this forum would have first hand experience of such things but if there are any I would be interested to have their comments. I recall that "Red Baron" had all sorts of creaking noises when the airframe was stressed and some superb cracking plywood noises when the AI shot me down. I have no idea whether this was realistic or not.

Regards
Ouston

Tully__
01-07-2005, 08:02 PM
I doubt you'd hear anything short of a major breakage over the engine and wind noise in a WW2 fighter.

Bull_dog_
01-07-2005, 09:04 PM
you would feel severe buffeting in most cases and of course real pilots "feel" the G's where we don't.

Given the difficulty of modelling things like this, I personally don't see the wings falling off aircraft as a good feature for this sim...just not enough inputs to sense when your plane is on the verge of breaking.

I also get the distinct feeling that there is some kind of randomness or cumulitive G load effect because sometimes I shed my wings at speeds around 650km/hr...I've done it in Mustangs and most recently a Corsair.

This is one feature I'd like to see Oleg dump...that is unless he'll start making the tails break off La-7's and such and do a better job from both sight and sound of warning us that structural failure is immenent...what is good for one is good for all.

Blackdog5555
01-08-2005, 01:34 AM
Wings falling off early P51s in the PTO did happen in high G dives, Sometimes, not all the time, and the flyers considered the early P51 to an experimental plane. But, no other plane has this kind of hyper realistic damage modeling and for example, the "no redline" F4F breaks at 420mph. My feeling is that there should be a G meter so we will have a "Gne" G never exceed, redline and maybe severe vibraion or noise before actual damage occurs. I dont know about the later p51s and the wing issue..The G blackout algorithm needs tweaking, i think. Gently pulling out of a 400mph dive sometimes is ok and sometimes you blackout...I think a G meter could give a good feeling of G stress without feeling the Gs.

FatBoyHK
01-08-2005, 01:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_dog_:
I personally don't see the wings falling off aircraft as a good feature for this sim...just not enough inputs to sense when your plane is on the verge of breaking.
. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, you get my point. But I think we can still simulate it, just give us more warning before the wing break off... Now it is a very risky business to do high speed manouevre, for example trying to get a snapshot in a spit-s. You just don't know what is the limit.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_dog_:
I also get the distinct feeling that there is some kind of randomness or cumulitive G load effect because sometimes I shed my wings at speeds around 650km/hr...I've done it in Mustangs and most recently a Corsair.
. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, The sorties I mentioned in my first post, I was diving below 400 MPH... I tried to get someone (who was already on fire, but kill stealer was coming!) in a spit-s. He was not pulling any g some I took my time. I pull my stick quite gentally... but when I pull about 50% of my stick, my wing break all in a sudden.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_dog_:
This is one feature I'd like to see Oleg dump...that is unless he'll start making the tails break off La-7's and such and do a better job from both sight and sound of warning us that structural failure is immenent...what is good for one is good for all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope everyone can take a open-minded view in this problem

FatBoyHK
01-08-2005, 07:03 PM
bump!

Bull_dog_
01-08-2005, 10:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
Wings falling off early P51s in the PTO did happen in high G dives, Sometimes, not all the time, and the flyers considered the early P51 to an experimental plane. But, no other plane has this kind of hyper realistic damage modeling and for example, the "no redline" F4F breaks at 420mph. My feeling is that there should be a G meter so we will have a "Gne" G never exceed, redline and maybe severe vibraion or noise before actual damage occurs. I dont know about the later p51s and the wing issue..The G blackout algorithm needs tweaking, i think. Gently pulling out of a 400mph dive sometimes is ok and sometimes you blackout...I think a G meter could give a good feeling of G stress without feeling the Gs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think in real life, structural failures were very random events and fairly uncommon except in a few aircraft like the early Typhoons that had severe design flaws.

I know Zero's could shed their wings very easily too, and probably all aircraft can and did suffer structural failure...I can recall a commercial Jet that lost its tail section over a major metropolitin area for no apparent reason...unfortunately, I don't have the inputs I need to warn me of failure and even when I'm careful, I still get failures occassionally.

If real aircraft behaved this way, I would never have made it out of flight school...nor would anyone else.

p1ngu666
01-08-2005, 10:41 PM
nah there % unlikely, but there **** alarming and scary so u fix it.

with g breaking wings, for me its mainly slight movements, but quick so i pass the 15g for .000000001 of a sec and no wings http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

FatBoyHK
01-08-2005, 11:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
with g breaking wings, for me its mainly slight movements, but quick so i pass the 15g for .000000001 of a sec and no wings http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

soemone will gonna say you are a noob, it is because your plane have excellent elevator response, learn your plane, noob, whatever...

Mustang is a decent dogfighter at least, but now it is quite pointless to tnb on it, I am being limited to BnZ for 95% of the time. Below 250 MPH, seem it turn like a pig, but it is realistic. about 350 MPH, it turn nicely but you face a high risk of structural failure... It is very insane that you would break you wing if you start a tight spit-s at 300MPH... pull you stick halfway and say bye to you wing....

karost
01-09-2005, 02:44 AM
Hi ,FatBoyHK http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
if you stay 1.5 meters behind +1700 HP engine of 60 years ago airplane with air-speed over 350mph , what kind of sound should you hear? and what system warning should exist for that time ? Janes WWII is arcade ( I like this game much ) but IL2 is not

every friends who like a p-51 for online fun faced a same experiends like you, 90% of them know where and how to fix it ...and I believe you are the one of them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!

Friendly_flyer
01-09-2005, 06:51 AM
Since we players can't feel the G-forces, I think twisting and stretching sounds can be a good substitute, even though it may not be entirely realistic.

FatBoyHK
01-09-2005, 07:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by karost:
every friends who like a p-51 for online fun faced a same experiends like you, 90% of them know where and how to fix it ...and I believe you are the one of them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

S! if not flying a Mustang, or not turning a Mustang if you really need to fly it, can be regarded as solutions, yes i think 90% of people know them.

You see, how many Mustangs flying on Warclouds? No many I guess... and how many of them have points? Yes I am one of them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Absolutely not to say Mustang is weak, quite the contrary indeed, but it is really <span class="ev_code_RED">un-necessarily </span> difficult plane to fight with, especially if you need to fly in to its max performance... and with a little bit to much stick force, boom, you are dead...

FatBoyHK
01-09-2005, 07:55 AM
actually, I have a quite "alternative" solution... that is, to reduce the effectiveness of a Mustang's elevator at high speed... If this can solve the problem, I don't mind that.... a hyper-responsive elevator is damaging more than helping anyway.....

Don't know if it is a good solution in the realism point of view... so, if it is bad, just forget about it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

but indeed it is not a solution... it is a work-around only.... we still need some kind of warning so that we can make our own judgement.

Aaron_GT
01-09-2005, 03:44 PM
"actually, I have a quite "alternative" solution... that is, to reduce the effectiveness of a Mustang's elevator at high speed..."

Actually it started off as less effective than it is now. People complained. And Oleg basically said that ok, he would make it more effective but noted that people might not like it if it was over effective...

Bull_dog_
01-09-2005, 05:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FatBoyHK:
actually, I have a quite "alternative" solution... that is, to reduce the effectiveness of a Mustang's elevator at high speed... If this can solve the problem, I don't mind that.... a hyper-responsive elevator is damaging more than helping anyway.....

Don't know if it is a good solution in the realism point of view... so, if it is bad, just forget about it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

but indeed it is not a solution... it is a work-around only.... we still need some kind of warning so that we can make our own judgement. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That might work...I don't remember people complaining about elevator effectiveness being no good but I have a short memory sometimes. I still feel like it isn't just G forces alone at work...I've had some very suspicious failures at lower speeds and when being careful too. The Mustang just isn't effective online as I think it was in real life based on success ratio's and my own experiences...part of it is packet loss on the .50cals I'm sure and the other is not being able to manuever at high speed.

I have a feeling that, globally speaking, elevator authority on most aircraft is probably a little over done...the Mustang was one of the best at high speed, maybe the best...so should it be in game. I just don't believe that wings falling off was so common in real life or the Mustang would have earned a reputation as ensign eliminator, or guarenteed varnished coffin or something like that.

FatBoyHK
01-09-2005, 07:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_dog_:
That might work...I don't remember people complaining about elevator effectiveness being no good but I have a short memory sometimes. I still feel like it isn't just G forces alone at work...I've had some very suspicious failures at lower speeds and when being careful too.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, I think we really need to have a rework for the G-damage model... And warning should be included in this model too.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_dog_:
The Mustang just isn't effective online as I think it was in real life based on success ratio's and my own experiences...part of it is packet loss on the .50cals I'm sure and the other is not being able to manuever at high speed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A very good roundup of the difficulty face by all mustang pilot now...


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_dog_:
the Mustang was one of the best at high speed, maybe the best...so should it be in game. I just don't believe that wings falling off was so common in real life or the Mustang would have earned a reputation as ensign eliminator, or guarenteed varnished coffin or something like that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, you said it all, can't add anything.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif