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View Full Version : How much for that sports model



slipBall
03-25-2006, 04:02 AM
I was wondering if pre-war Hurricane's, and 109's were for sale to general aviaton interest. I think that early Submarines were sold but I have ne idea of the price. Does anybody know what these aircraft sold for in U.S. dollar's back then. I think new car's were sold for well under 1000 US, and a new Harley for around 200

djetz
03-25-2006, 05:53 AM
I'm pretty sure that most of the Luftwaffe planes went straight to the recyclers. Some ended up in various allied countries as museum pieces, but as far as I know, none were sold to the public.

There were some post-war licence-built planes, like the Spanish models of various Luftwaffe planes, and those are more likely to be the source of the privately owned WW2 "German" planes that exist now.

As for the allied airforces, most went to scrapyards. The US Navy actually dumped a whole lot of carrier planes overboard after the war ended. The UK and US also sold off outdated but airworthy planes to various countries, and some South American countries used them for decades. I believe that P-51s were used in combat in South America until the 1970s.

Privately owned ex-military planes generally have been "rescued" from scrapyards and rebuilt. Govts tend to not sell military hardware to private buyers.

flakwagen
03-25-2006, 06:38 AM
Sadly true. As the world gets more authoritarian and repressive there is less military hardware sold to civilians. Even bayonets are "de-militarized" by being cut in half. There will be no antique F-14 Tomcats or F-15 Eagles flying at air shows when our great grandchildren are teenagers. They're all being cut up and sold for scrap, lest we unwashed masses should get hold of one and do something bad.

As for newly manufactured aircraft in WW2, I imagine they would've sold for more than what the government(s) paid for them. The U.S. government pays about $400 USD for an M16A2 rifle. A similar semi-automatic AR15 rifle will cost the consumer somewhere in the neighborhood of $600 to $900 USD.

Selling things to the government is generally cheaper for manufacturers because there isn't a customer base to deal with. There are no warantees or etc. and the government rarely ever returns products- it makes the company fix them. When the government buys something it also usually pays for a maintenance contract. When companies sell to civilians, the gravy train is over as soon as the sale is made.

Flak

Zeus-cat
03-25-2006, 06:56 AM
Sadly true. As the world gets more authoritarian and repressive there is less military hardware sold to civilians. Even bayonets are "de-militarized" by being cut in half. There will be no antique F-14 Tomcats or F-15 Eagles flying at air shows when our great grandchildren are teenagers. They're all being cut up and sold for scrap, lest we unwashed masses should get hold of one and do something bad.

Someone with some money and some mechanical know-how can buy a P-51 and keep it flying. How many of these people could do that with an F-14? Just by the very nature of modern military aircraft the average person won't be able to maintain or fly one.



Selling things to the government is generally cheaper for manufacturers because there isn't a customer base to deal with. There are no warantees or etc. and the government rarely ever returns products- it makes the company fix them. When the government buys something it also usually pays for a maintenance contract. When companies sell to civilians, the gravy train is over as soon as the sale is made.

I disagree with this 100%. I am in the aerospace business and the exact opposite is true for our products. Selling to the military is a lot more work than selling to the civilian world. Once we sell a part to the military, we rarely see it again. Parts we sell to the civilian aviation market have a nice spares stream and repair market for decades after the sale.

flakwagen
03-25-2006, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
How many of these people could do that with an F-14? Just by the very nature of modern military aircraft the average person won't be able to maintain or fly one.


Where there is a bank account there is a way. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif There are quite a few Soviet surplus jets around today and a fellow in South Africa owns an ex-RAF Lightning. They obviously aren't cheap, but there are plenty of people around who could and would pay for their upkeep if given the chance.




Once we sell a part to the military, we rarely see it again. Parts we sell to the civilian aviation market have a nice spares stream and repair market for decades after the sale.

That is cool- and one more reason why it makes no sense to chop up these warbirds. It would provide untold amounts of business for the private sector.

slipBall
03-25-2006, 09:27 AM
It's the pre-war year's, say 1935-40, I was wondering about. During that time of production if there was any civilian models produced and sold. I know that early Hurr. were produced without any armour plating. And with all the interest in aircraft racing back then, I bet planes were available for sale. But again what did they cost, judgeing by car prices, Maybe a sleek new Hurr. went for 3 or 4 grand

raisen
03-25-2006, 09:43 AM
As state of the art fighters, it would have been like putting a state of the art F16 into private hands. You couldn't do it, because of where it might have ended up.
The only privately owned Hurricane I could guarantee existed pre-war would be the Hawkers own prototype, which would have remained in company (private company) ownership, at least for the duration of the flight test program.

Raisen

Stackhouse25th
03-25-2006, 09:49 AM
plenty of planes are flying today from the past. All those P51's you see that are remaining that are being flown, about 2 crash each year and then are rebuilt. A few however are totally destroyed and pilots killed every 2 years.

The only way to prevent historical planes from being slammed into the ground is to build brand new ones and call those 'real' and put the authentic ones away in a hangar for good.

So when I see a P51D with a learjet wing and contra rotating props designed to race, I laugh.

HotelBushranger
03-25-2006, 09:52 AM
I was just thinkin about that today. You always read about pilots doin their own thing completely un-official in the war, for eg a kid in London saw a ferry pilot loop his Halifax for the hell of it, and fighter pilot Robert Milton flew from France to England to fill his wing tanks fill with beer. As in, these days everythings so bloody expensive you go a degree off course, you're likely to lose a stripe or two, or worse.

Bremspropeller
03-25-2006, 10:04 AM
Reminds me of that Marineflieger (german navy-aviators) F-104G pilot had the cool idea of flying unter a brige - inverted.
Well, he filmed the stunt - unfortunately his CO found out and he got promoted to a civil "pedestrian".

HotelBushranger
03-25-2006, 10:06 AM
Buggery http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif Claps for effort though

Bremspropeller
03-25-2006, 10:13 AM
Yep, the old "new" Luftwaffe days were cool, when there was no cry for low-alt restrictions and stuff.

A friend of mine visited a initial training unit (they had Piaggio P.149 prop-trainers) where the IPs had too much spare-time.
So they invented a nice game:
fly over a forest, spin and recover as low as possible.
My friend (he is a bit older - obviously ^^) had the joy of being aboard of one flight.
After the stunt, the plane's belly was all green instead of the normal camo-pattern http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif


Yep, german Luftwaffe pilots used to be kinda crazy and plenty got killed...such as one the gyus of JG 71 "Richthoven" in it's F-104G days:

They were in contest to fly the tightest and therefore fastest VFR-pattern...he stalled, pitched up and crashed.

HotelBushranger
03-25-2006, 10:16 AM
Love the bit about the game, you'd wanna be wearing brown undies that day!

I suppose the deaths are why they restrict it, they waste a few years or so of training the pilot, and a plane worth tens of millions. Back in WW2, planes would be a few hundred bob.

Bremspropeller
03-25-2006, 10:31 AM
Yep, and don't forget the people on the ground - might hurt a bit when some crazed fighter-jockey throws his jet onto your house.

raisen
03-25-2006, 10:33 AM
They were in contest to fly the tightest and therefore fastest VFR-pattern...he stalled, pitched up and crashed.

.... and the downward firing ejection seat would definately be no help there....

Raisen

Bremspropeller
03-25-2006, 10:35 AM
Well, the F-104G actually had either the Lockheed C-2 upward firing seat, or the Martin-Baker QR-7 Zero/Zero seat http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

But the C-2 still had envelope-limits.

slipBall
03-25-2006, 12:37 PM
Found this price list from 1940. Can anyone convert to US dollors Thing's certainly were cheaper back then

http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/spitfire.html

raisen
03-25-2006, 02:36 PM
Didn't some folk call the earlier downward ejecting model the dejection seat ?

Raisen

horseback
03-25-2006, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by slipBall:
Found this price list from 1940. Can anyone convert to US dollors Thing's certainly were cheaper back then 11,000 pounds or so sounds fairly cheap now, but bear in mind that in the early sixties, the exchange rate was $2.84 US to a pound, and the cost of living in Britain was far lower than in the USA, especially back then. My father, a USAF E-5 (with 10 years in service) at the time, was making something less than $300.00 a month.

In the 1930s, I seem to recall that the exchange rate was even higher, although I have no documentation to that effect. A clue or two can be found in Paul Brickhill's bio of Douglas Bader, Reach For the Sky.

Bader was able to live an semi-upper class lifestyle with an annual income of less than 100 pounds in the mid 1930s, even as a double amputee. Working class families probably managed on a good bit less.

As for postwar prices for US fighters, I recall reading that Corsairs and Mustangs could be had for around $10,000 right after VJ Day, still beyond the reach of the average Joe at the time.

cheers

horseback