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F19_Orheim
10-01-2007, 07:04 AM
I am not an offliner, I spend pretty much all of my flying time online in DF servers.

Sometimes though I fly Online War missions where AI do come across my path, and I have always found their behaviour to be quite predictable, especially when I end up on their six - though I wouldn't say I am an expert on AI moves/capabilities.

However I recently saw this in another thread:

"AI can't shoot deflection even when your turn is slight..."

Is this true?

F19_Orheim
10-01-2007, 07:04 AM
I am not an offliner, I spend pretty much all of my flying time online in DF servers.

Sometimes though I fly Online War missions where AI do come across my path, and I have always found their behaviour to be quite predictable, especially when I end up on their six - though I wouldn't say I am an expert on AI moves/capabilities.

However I recently saw this in another thread:

"AI can't shoot deflection even when your turn is slight..."

Is this true?

LEBillfish
10-01-2007, 07:28 AM
Seems so, in fact, I've seen folks deliberately take advantage of it for both AI & AAA.

It was very clear in another sim, less so here...AAA would fire, their shot placement a combination of your "immediate path/speed/altitude+lead, considering shell flight time"....Now that sounds right, a hit every time....Yet what it couldn't calculate for was your path being an arc, so if you'd fly in a circle, flak would go off around you as thoughat the second it fired you were flying straight....So, imagine your true path a circular axis, the points of AAA aiming much like spokes running tangent from where you would of gone if straight to the point on the circle where you were......So in a counter clockwise turn the shots would always hit to roughly your 3.

Here I think it's "now" much the same....AI leads, yet does not consider your turn fully yet the path you would of taken if flying straight....So you'll notice they're often low and behind in a banking turn.

Around 3.04 or 3.05 Maddox Games made a stunning improvement in AI....Not only had they corrected the problem, yet they also team flew quite well.....People complained so much (as they were no longer the aces they thought they were)........AI was detuned once more.

Pity.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

ploughman
10-01-2007, 07:44 AM
Fish is right about the circa 3.04 AI being the best. I don't know why it was detuned, my feeling at the time was it was a version of the SoW AI and it was removed at 4.0/1 and replaced with the FB AI. Who knows? AI can't deflection shoot very well at shallow angles, you can run their guns dry this way, but they will blast you with a snap high angle deflection shot.

rnzoli
10-01-2007, 09:18 AM
depends on AI level, too

while "Average" AI doesn't hit you while turning at least slightly (it is laughable), try to fight against an "Ace" AI and see who is going to have the last laugh http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

major_setback
10-01-2007, 09:28 AM
AI on my tail used to frequently get me until I read that you should add a little rudder as you turn (preferebly inreasing or varying the amount all the time). It seems to work for me. (Works against humans too!!). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SeaFireLIV
10-01-2007, 10:17 AM
Didn`t we have a big discussion on this and prove that AI did defelcetion shoot?

Anyway, AI does deflection shoot, but it doesn`t happen every time. Depends on skill.

Now I think it didn`t a few patches back, but that was a long time ago.

DKoor
10-01-2007, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rnzoli:
depends on AI level, too

while "Average" AI doesn't hit you while turning at least slightly (it is laughable), try to fight against an "Ace" AI and see who is going to have the last laugh http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>This can't be more true.
Ace Ai despatches you in a short manner if you let him be on your six.
They are just deadly accurate.
Great counter measure is hard turn.
Which bleeds your energy and you can't keep up with Ai.
It isn't really that easy to fight Ace Ai if there are several of them vs you....all because of that energy thing.

Ironically Ai is sometimes more accurate than the greatest human sharpshooter, and sometimes can't hit you from what seems to be a turkey shot.
But yes...they are deadly in deflection especially h2h passes if you do not evade.

thefruitbat
10-01-2007, 11:10 AM
The only way i find to fight ace ai, is to not let them have a shot, because they will hit. Its good for practising guns defense though.

I used to find it easy to shoot 4 ace ai down once, but that was cockpit off http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif These days 2 fine, 3's hard work, espescially if you put them in different flights.

I do think personally that the ai we have at the moment, if u mix veteran and normal up, is the best ai offline all round that we've had. just my two cents.

cheers fruitbat

general_kalle
10-01-2007, 11:46 AM
at rookie and veteren the ai dont make even the slightest defelktion and it looks rediculus

but at ace they are ridiculusly good
they can make a perfekt shot at a 90 degrees of angle with a hugh amount of deflektion so it all depends on skill level
set it up if its too easy.

i prefer fighting veterans.
rookies ai's online

crucislancer
10-01-2007, 11:47 AM
I've seen the AI score on deflection shots, but I've also seen them blow it just as much. Frankly, I don't pay much attention to it. I'm doing my best to make sure the AI can't hit me, deflection or no, as well as trying to turn the tables on them so I can practice my own deflection shooting. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SeaFireLIV
10-01-2007, 12:35 PM
Yea, many times just recently while flying offline, i`ll come across the odd expert 109 shooter. If I don`t watch him and turn just at the right time he`ll get me, even while I`m turning.

VW-IceFire
10-01-2007, 03:15 PM
The AI does deflection shoot but not very well. A subtle rudder slide will throw off the Regulars but the Experts usually just close the gap till it doesn't matter and blast you anyways. They aren't very good at it...probably because the AI routines are very reactive and they aren't good at perceiving a motive. For instance when you're flying online and your on someones six...they see you...and they break you know they can see you and you can guess as to what their next move is based on what they've done so far.

The AI is quite a bit more simple...it just sees and shoots. Deflection shooting requires a bit of thought behind it and the AI can sometimes do the calculations to perfection but other times can't think ahead to what your next move is.

K_Freddie
10-01-2007, 03:34 PM
I've had the AI do some real magical moves, but they don't do enough of them and tend to go for E-management more than anything else - which of course is boring.

My 'kick' come from outflying and Yak-3/LA7 in an FW190, offline and online. I just wish the AI would do the same as I get really excited with a challenge!!
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Monty_Thrud
10-01-2007, 04:01 PM
I really am hoping for the AI to be fixed in the final patch, bnzing around in circles constantly, as if stuck on a merry-go-round, too many collisions, bad wingmen, make it not-so-fun offline, the AI in the (as said above)3.04-5 era was good, lets hope MG gets this Sim back to legenday status again. To me good AI and good online is a sign of a company that cares about its customers.
As happens too much nowadays, all to often, once a product nears the end, they just give up.

WN_Barbarossa
10-01-2007, 04:14 PM
AI deflection shooting skills also depend on the aircraft. In some types it just performs better. (for example in Bf-109, IIRC)

But in most cases it's really easy to defeat an AI plane on your dead six, just turn and turn and wait until he runs out of ammo.

Another strange thing about the AI - QMB, me against 4 vets. I shot down one wing leader, and his wingman (undamaged plane) left the battle and headed for home without shooting a single round. Maybe the AI can be scared.

SeaFireLIV
10-01-2007, 06:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WN_Barbarossa:



Another strange thing about the AI - QMB, me against 4 vets. I shot down one wing leader, and his wingman (undamaged plane) left the battle and headed for home without shooting a single round. Maybe the AI can be scared. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


yep. had the same experience. had a long fight with 2 109s in an I16 (it`s hard to fight 109s in an I16), but finally, the AI made a mistake and i shot him down. Immediately, the 2nd 109 headed for home. It`s as if he said, `I ain`t risking it with him - Im off!`

Yet other times, the remaining 109 might stay and fight.


One other thing, take on 4-6 enemy aircraft of varying skill with a similar number of corresponding aircraft and you do get what must be the most realistic dogfights in any offline sim with BOBwov the only other contender.

If your head`s not on a swivel you`re out!

leitmotiv
10-01-2007, 06:18 PM
I have found the Ace AI shoots so preternaturally well at all times it is almost impossible to beat. Head shots galore. I am not claiming it is unrealistic, but if you run into an Ace, you'd best be in form, or you will be dead, and, by George, this is as it should be.

You can get away from AI by flying crazy really well, just as the memoirs advise. If you have an airplane which permits it, wild maneuvers culminating in a surprise reversal can save your neck. When I am in form, I do things to get away from the AI I can't even recall unless I go back to the track---and then I usually laugh my head off because I'll break every rule in the book---split-essing at low altitude, thrashing about like a rainbow trout on a line---the AI usually climbs and warily observes.

mortoma
10-01-2007, 06:39 PM
I fly offline and have been doing it for years. Right now, although I have '46, I am flying 4.05m. Though I don't know what is going on with '46 or even if there is a difference with the AI at all. I do know that in 4.05m the AI can't deflection shoot very well. This includes ace level, because with my settings I run across veteran and ace more that novice. The quick, high deflection snap shot will work for the ace AI at times. But generally you can get out of trouble by turning, and not even necessarily all that hard. I rarely fly online so almost all I get to see is AI, so I should know something. I am well acquainted with the AI guys!!!

I can't wait to try '46 but will have to wait for new PC.

mortoma
10-01-2007, 06:48 PM
I do seem to remember recently being chased by an ACE AI in Zero recently. I was in a P-38J and had gotten low/slow. That particualr time the Ace AI was able to defect me as I tried desparately to turn with combat flaps. He still had cannon ammo and was right up my a$$, only a half planes length behind me. He managed to shoot my tail clean off!! I only managed to crash!! To low to bail..oops!

So maybe if the Ace AI are right up your a$$ in a tighter turning aircraft they can manage respectable deflction shooting?? But that is about the only time. Seems like no matter what if they are very far behind you, they don't pull enough lead pursuit and shoot behind you. Maybe they just need to be up close and personal. If they are more than 20 meters behind, they seem to only pull lag pursuit, not lead.

lowfighter
10-01-2007, 09:42 PM
I missed the 3.something patches (jumped from 1.x directly to 4.1). So my question: were the 3.x AI doing the deflection well in any circumstances or it depended on situation and skill?
Somehow it would be cool to have a randomness in this, like the average AI hitting say in 30% of cases, maybe the veterans in 50% etc, depending also on how big is the deflection. But I guess randomness is not supported by the game engine.