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View Full Version : Which planes can T&B; or B&Z?



ataloss
10-28-2005, 03:36 AM
I notice that there appear to be 2 types of fighting: B&Z, T&B. Also the AI will begin one type and then stick to that format for the duration of the fight.

Having returned to PF stand alone (for the minute) after a little absense, I seem to prefer turnfights (previously I was a bomber!)now.

But I am wondering which planes are good for turnfights? Obviously the zero excels at this, but I would prefer a non IJN/ IJA plane. I was investigating the hellcat, as some threads say it's a turnfighter, others a B&Z... I may consider the spitfire too, if that's any good, although I'd prefer to support an underdog. I quite like the corsair, but that's a B&Z.

I'm also getting the opinion that the IJN / IJA planes are T&B's; the others more B&Z. Is this generalisation anyhere close?

nakamura_kenji
10-28-2005, 03:48 AM
ki-43/A6M = T&B
ki-61/ki-100 = T&B / B&Z depend oppent
ki-84 = B&Z

JG53Frankyboy
10-28-2005, 04:21 AM
it all depends on the enemy plane !

Spitfire Vc for example:
sure T&B agaisnt Bf109s , but against Zeros it should fly B&Z !

ore Cr42:
against J8A B&Z http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
against Hurricane T&B

nevertheless you should look in every plane about a high energie status.

WOLFMondo
10-28-2005, 04:24 AM
I prefer to BnZ in a Zero but at much lower speeds than in other more dedicated BnZ'ers.

Makes me less of a target and no one expects to be bounced from above by a Zero doing 400mph.

JG53Frankyboy
10-28-2005, 04:32 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
I prefer to BnZ in a Zero but at much lower speeds than in other more dedicated BnZ'ers.

Makes me less of a target and no one expects to be bounced from above by a Zero doing 400mph.

i also fight in the vertical in a Zero if i am in the offensive - but if i have to fight in the defence , i often go slow and horicontal ore in a very narrow, low speed ,high angle spiral climb.

ataloss
10-28-2005, 04:48 AM
Are Hellcat's any good against Zero's online (or Corsair's for that matter). Or even a P40? Is it historically accurate in any way?

Currently learning:
IJN: Zero
Brit: Seafire
US: ?

Haven't got my merged copies yet, so just wondering what's a 'good' plane to practise with, prior to getting everything and going online. Or does everyone just fight the later, faster warbirds?

JHannibalSmith
10-28-2005, 04:49 AM
I always aim to B&Z, even in planes usually better at T&B (I usually fly a spit).

My plan is always to use a height advantage to B&Z, but if I lose the height advantage, that's not so bad as I can happily T&B. If you lose the advantage in a dedicated B&Zer ( fw190, P-47), then you're in deep doo-doo. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

What do the 190 flyers think? I've started using them too.

JG53Frankyboy
10-28-2005, 05:11 AM
Originally posted by ataloss:
Are Hellcat's any good against Zero's online (or Corsair's for that matter). Or even a P40? Is it historically accurate in any way?



the whole thing is far away from beeing historicaly accurate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
because all online pilots are aces , knew all about their enemy plane , use proper tactis (at least mostly) and have just to hit refly (or join another coop mission) - none has to fear for his life.

there is no very highly trained and experienced Zeros agaisnt bad tactics using angloamericans in eraly 1942.
there is no turkey shoot in 1944 in experienced F6F pilots agaisnt rookie A6M pilots.

Kuna15
10-28-2005, 06:33 AM
Any plane with large guns 30mm, 4x20mm or simply lot of HMGs (P-47, P-51) can be excellent BnZer. Also it must have good diving capabilities (enduring high speeds in dive).

Good TnB style plane obviously has got to be good in turn and acceleration.

jds1978
10-28-2005, 07:19 AM
American B'n'Z: F4u, P51, P47, P40*, F6f**
American T'n'B: F6F**, P38***, P40*, P39, P400

* P40 belongs in both categories as it can play both role relatively well. It more or less becomes dependant upon the strengths/weaknesses of your enemies AC

** F6F is another example of a dual use airplane. It out-turns early to mid war IJA/IJN AC, and is structurally sound enough to B'n'Z

*** P38 is generally considered the US's most agile war plane. Be carefull of high-speed dives as the controlls will freeze.

As a general note: If your aircraft can withstand the stress of B'n'Zing adopt this tactic. T'n'Bing is a chivalrous and romantic notion. It's also a great way to get shot down http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ataloss
10-28-2005, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by Kuna15:
Good TnB style plane obviously has got to be good in turn and acceleration.

Would a P38 fit the bill here?

neural_dream
10-28-2005, 07:30 AM
Although very unconventional for a TnB, it could.

It's still less than a week since i finished it, so i guess i can still advertise a little:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/8311086963

It has most of what you would come here and ask about planes.

ataloss
10-28-2005, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by neural_dream:
It's still less than a week since i finished it, so i guess i can still advertise a little:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/26310365/m/8311086963

Had already found it and it is my bible. I'd be lost without it. Great work.
Was just curious as to which were B'n'Z or T,n,B planes. Getting the impression B'n'Z is the better tactic...

neural_dream
10-28-2005, 09:21 AM
in terms of survivability of course.

Doug_Thompson
10-28-2005, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by ataloss:
I'm also getting the opinion that the IJN / IJA planes are T&B's; the others more B&Z. Is this generalisation anyhere close?

That's the whole essence of it. Japanese pilots made a fetish out of maneuverabillity, and that greatly influenced their aircraft development.

The Japanese constructed aircraft that wouldn't have met American and British strength standards, for instance, and did without equipment that Americans and British would have considered vital €" like parachutes €" to lighten the planes and lower their wing loading, to get more manueverability.

This is not as irrational as it appears now. The Japanese formed their opinions in China, where they fought obsolecent planes. Speed didn't seem like much of a factor because any modern warplane was fast enough to catch whatever the Chinese were flying. What mattered was being able to get on the enemy's tail.

The Japanese got their first hard knocks in 1939, when they fought the Russians in Mongolia. The Japanese found out you can't outmanuever a plane you can't catch. By then, though, it was too late to change directions before the war broke out.

The bottom line is: I don't think there is an Allied plane that can turn and burn on the Japanese, unless the Japanese pilot is flying a Tony.

GerritJ9
10-28-2005, 09:28 AM
Don't forget the Brewster for T&B in B-239 or F2A-2 form. While not as good as the Ki.43 or A6M2 it is better than any other Allied early war fighter except the I-16 and the Gladiator. The Buffalo Mk. 1 feels more sluggish- its only advantages are the large ammo load and its reflector gunsight (which the B-239 also has).

neural_dream
10-28-2005, 09:32 AM
TnB and BnZ. Hm, in all the games i've played in my life, the ultimate pleasure is winning the way you shouldn't. WOLFMondo has mentioned already that you can BnZ with a zero (as long as you know exactly when it breaks up, and you're constantly looking at your airspeed).

Nothing compares to killing the pikemen with scouts http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.