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andrew8412
02-22-2010, 07:08 AM
I'm cruising along looking for targets when all of a sudden I spot a bandit diving in on my six from a 2k height advantage. Even if I evade his attack he can just climb away faster than I can chase him and dive back for another pass. Sooner or later he is bound to score a hit and there is no escaping the engagement when he has that much of a speed advantage.

When I find myself trapped in this sort of unfortunate situation what kind of tactics and maneuvers can I employ to neutralize my opponent's advantage and defeat him?

stalkervision
02-22-2010, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by andrew8412:
I'm cruising along looking for targets when all of a sudden I spot a bandit diving in on my six from a 2k height advantage. Even if I evade his attack he can just climb away faster than I can chase him and dive back for another pass. Sooner or later he is bound to score a hit and there is no escaping the engagement when he has that much of a speed advantage.

When I find myself trapped in this sort of unfortunate situation what kind of tactics and maneuvers can I employ to neutralize my opponent's advantage and defeat him?


Try a nice big barrel roll. He will crap himself trying to slow down to your speed and will fly right past you and then you can shoot him in the back. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

timing is critical. Too early and it won't work.

Try it out in off-line Il-2 sessions with the ai.

Then you will do it automatically when need be.


I have a series of screen shots here somewhere that has me doing this to a p-38 in a me-109. It shows me barrel rolling right over the top of it and blasting it in the back.

god knows where the they are now it was a long time ago. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


This is a completely evil maneuver if you perfect it. You will appear to just disappear from your opponents view and then reappear at his "6" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

stalkervision
02-22-2010, 07:46 AM
In the mean time just turn into these attacks and get a head on firing pass and keep doing this till his energy advantage disappears.

T_O_A_D
02-22-2010, 08:49 AM
The barrel roll works, only if he is greedy or dumb enough to try and slow down for the shot.

Still good advice, even if you can't make the shot.

He might get frustrated and move on or waist all his ammo. Even if he plays it smart and doesn't slow down.

Turn into his attacks for sure, but be evasive.

Head-On's IMO should never be given as advice.

They are for use only in desperate measures, You already wounded and going to loose presumably.

If used, try them off angle.

Hopefully you can survive long enough for help to arrive.

Always have a Wing man, if you do and loose him, Leave asap!

Unnoticed hopefully.

It's only a game though, so if you don't mind trading punches in the face, have fun with it.

robtek1957
02-22-2010, 09:19 AM
You can only hope that he makes an error like slowing down,
if he is cool, patient, uses his guns only when he can hit you and doesn't become target fixated, you are dead meat.

LEBillfish
02-22-2010, 09:30 AM
First off.....Altitude is life, get some.

Secondly the Japanese response which worked very well to shed that intial pass was a split-S. Simply wait till he is near (too early and he can correct), then roll over and pull back....WHich then leads to much of the following I posted in another thread.......

Thirdly as the Japanese believed.....There is ONLY one solution to every problem......ATTACK!

As to turning into the enemy, MOST DEFFINITELY!

By turning into their attack you are now attacking. Granted he is too yet remember it is a battle to make the other defend that is what all that positioning is about, to make it so they can't attack......By turning into them he now has to worry about your guns, yet more so you now have a clear view of him and what he is doing, yet above all are now the one dictating the fight (remember his plan was to attack your 6, yours now to attack head on....So it is now YOUR plan you're fighting to, not his).

In kind, by you now being the aggressor you dictate how the fight is to go, and he must adjust throwing off his plan even more (see how in a couple seconds we're working him closer to making the jump to defending)...However, you now controlling the situation can do the following.....As he dives you climb toward him (shallow does not have to match his angle)...If neither change their path he will not get a firing solution as you'll pass under.....SO....He must compensate again by diving harder, and aircraft don't respond as well in a negative G adjustment they built to climb....However every second he must adjust more, and more just to keep you in his sights....You however can track him the entire time (keeping your eye on the enemy)...SO he must now change his plan even more and here are his options.......and don't be afraid to shallow out your climb to even slightly dive to force his hand even more and set him up (see, my attitude right off is not defending, it is setting him up to attack).

1. Keep pushing the negative G's...That's a losing battle he can never do it and get a line on you to fire....If he does he'll be in a hard core dive and YOU will now have the altitude advantage to either set up or roll over and pursue.
2. Try and roll and pull back to try and follow your path....He'll be going too fast to do that (come in behind you), so at best will loop under you at which point if you simply continue, turn hard to keep your eyes on him or at worst slow he'll come up in front of you....If he realizes this after the roll, you'll be above him and can dive to attack.
3. He can hesitate banking or leveling off to try and turn into you. At that point you're still climbing, so he just lost his altitude advantage and by the time he does turn you have already turned again into him easily yet now he does not have the advantage of E and you're now level or much closer to it.
4. He can break and run....Keep climbing, secure your position while turnign to attack...At worst he'll run off with you now in his old position of having all the advantage. At best he'll reconsider having hesitated, though now the shoe is on the other foot him at the disadvantage.
5. He can instantly break seeing he cannot do 1-4 wisely and climb continuing the attack to set up for a second pass and retain the advantage.

5 is his ONLY option.....9x out of 10 he will do 1-3...this has been proven to me in 10's of thousands of online dogfights...Very, very few have the discipline to press the attack wisely (item 5)....and of the 1-3 most do, 80% of the time it is 1 or 2 the worst possible things they could do.....You simply by turning into them in a couple of seconds worked him into being the defender....You won.

All the talk of shifting the tempo/speed of the fight (now everything happening in half the time) a given, you with no advantage have just taken all of it by simply attacking vs. defending.

K2

stalkervision
02-22-2010, 09:33 AM
Ya you have to watch out for the head on passes and not make them too "head on.." http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

stalkervision
02-22-2010, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by robtek1957:
You can only hope that he makes an error like slowing down,
if he is cool, patient, uses his guns only when he can hit you and doesn't become target fixated, you are dead meat.

I believe most people when presented with a nice bounce like this wouldn't be so cool and collected. They want that nice easy kill.

As i said done right and your aircraft will disappear from his vision.

except in servers where all outside views are present of course.

This works best with only cockpit view allowed.

best to use my second option I guess. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

robtek1957
02-22-2010, 10:04 AM
Ok,
against Hartmann you are dead meat,
against the average online pilot with a VIRTUAL live: leBillFish and Stalkervision said it all.

rnzoli
02-22-2010, 10:05 AM
Well in general, this is the answr: without your normal flight envelope, you are doomed. You can only eliminate your opponent by pushing the fight on the bounday of his flight envelope, where the additional kinetic energy is not an advantage.

For example, if you have a nicely diving kite, like a P-47 dive away with Vne towards home base.

If your turn rate is better, turn, then reverse your turn, turn agan and did I say turn more?

If your roll rate is better at low speeds, maintan altitude and barell roll or split-S with the right timing. This can work for a Zero for example.

If your roll rate is getting better comparatively at high speeds (e.g., Wildcat vs. Zero), you need to increase speed in shallow dive and start fast alternating scissors, maintaining speed in the shallow dive.

If you face an aircraft that is superior to you in all aspects, so that you just can't "drag him" to the edge of his envelope, you can still try to position yourself always directly under him, at low altitude, preferably on the edge of a forest or ridge. Sometimes people do stupid things and crash into terrain by themselves, thus giving you a so-called manouver kill.

Sillius_Sodus
02-22-2010, 10:34 AM
As long as you can maintain visual contact with your attacker you will be a difficult target to hit. If you can dodge the first few passes, it might buy enough time for help to arrive, for you to drag the bandit to an area with friendly aaa or the attacker will break off and look for an easier target (unless they are ai).

K_Freddie
02-22-2010, 10:34 AM
If you're low on the deck, you must get right under him so that he has to dive as close to vertical as possible.

Once he does this you start turning in ever tightening circles as he gets closer. If he get impatient he'll stall in the vertical or/and make a nice hole in the ground. As he pulls out you just fly in the opposite direction. Keep it level and straight and he might lose you in the cammo. any sudden movements and you'll be spotted - keep away from water with brown/green cammo.

Otherwise the shallow dive of RNZOLI's works well.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

na85
02-22-2010, 11:43 AM
Much, if not all depends on which aircraft you are flying vs which aircraft he is flying.

For example if he is flying an aircraft that maneuvers poorly at high speeds (Bf109, P-38 etc) then you could extend in a shallow dive in a wide, gentle turn. This will cause the speed of the engagement to increase greatly, and you can use your better control authority at high speed to dodge him and gain a position advantage, or allow you to disengage and escape.

If his aircraft has a lower Vne (Never-Exceed speed) than yours (i.e. you're in a FW190 and he's in a Yak) then you can escape easily by firewalling the throttle and diving away at a moderately steep angle (not too steep or he'll cut the corner and catch up to you later).

Etc, etc etc.

If you let us know which aircraft are involved we can probably give better/more specific advice http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Gadje
02-22-2010, 01:31 PM
It helps to have some experience in BnZ yourself. Aim to do the things you would not like to see if you were the attacker.

Your aim should not to just defend but also try to even your energy with his. I find a shallow dive in the opposite direction to his as he begins his dive gives you the right speed to hard manuever up to face him, the aim being to be just above him as you merge. Time it well and he will be too fast to pull his nose up for the shot. You however can roll over and fire as he climbs behind you, just to let him know your still fighting http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You will not have lost much energy or height doing this. But dont climb after him yet, extend horizontally away from his flight path. If he follows he will need to to fly horizontally in a shallow dive to get in position for another pass and he will be lower now. Do the same again trying not to lose E. If he carries on he is not experienced because his best bet is to extend and hope for another chance later or another target.

If he persists he will after a few more passes be at an energy state eventually where you can chase him up ...not by hanging in the air but staying fast enough below him flying inside track to his path to cut in on him as he comes down. Then you're doing the chasing while he needs to defend.

Works if you have the better turning/slower plane or they are similar. If your in a FW and your attacker a Spit....RUN TO BASE SCREAMING http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
Flying horizontal as he goes vertical is key. Its a one man drag'n'bag if you do it right.

Jumoschwanz
02-22-2010, 08:07 PM
They all get greedy sooner or later......

Coming down they have more speed than you so they can not turn as tight. Eventually they will pee away their advantage and be on your terms. Especially if you fly straight away from them and fast as often as you can, you will gain E as they lose it.

And most do get greedy sooner or later and decide to turn with you, then that game is over.

Lastly, if you feel like it, when they go up just watch them, as soon as you see them coming down again, just pull back and turn right towards them and take a shot at them head-on. You may even have the advantage at this because you may be able to aim more accurately traveling at a slower speed than them.

Anyway, if you are skilled, the pilot up there has to be really, really good and smart to make the best of his advantage, and most are just not that good.

There are some Hi-Def videos of IL2 online here:

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Jumoschwanz#g/u

There are at least four vids that start from the perspective of a disadvantage and they are turned around, so it is not uncommon.....

general_kalle
02-24-2010, 06:17 PM
according to dicta Boelche you should turn into him head on.

Bremspropeller
02-24-2010, 06:34 PM
Try to ram him - serves him right, especially if it's one of those streak-obsessed attention-hos http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Jumoschwanz
02-24-2010, 08:36 PM
Anti-energy fighter sentiments are some of the funniest poeple. I think it takes as much skill and patience to energy fight as it does to "dogfight". Dogfighters just complain about them because it negates their limited skill set.

If you want to be really great, you have to be able to do it all, turn and burn, zoom and boom, and ground-pound.

Some missions you may use all three of the above skill sets to get back home in one piece.

Just a day ago I was going to a ground target at about 7000 feet altitude carrying a 1000lb bomb. I saw a dot at half my altitude near the target area. I HAD to zoom down on it, otherwise after I dropped my bomb and set off all the AAA tracers in the area it would have come after me anyway right?

So down I went at full speed to a bit below his altitude. The bogey saw me coming up from below at their Tempest and they tried to climb away from me, they did not know I had all the E I did, so even carrying the 500kg bomb, I closed in and scored a PK. After that I went back over and got some ground targets with the bomb.

Next mission to the same ground target, carrying the same bomb load, I looked back and another Tempest was on my low six closing in. I figured my only way out was to jettison the bomb load which I did. I was then able to make the Tempest miss his initial shot, make him overshoot me and blast him out of the sky.

So, there was two missions that would not have been as successful if I was a one-trick pilot.....

BillSwagger
02-25-2010, 01:04 AM
i just try to get as acute to the attack angle as possible, and vary the degree of turn through maneuvers.

From a BnZ stand point, its really based on predicting where your opponent is going to be. Some pilots stick to the S turn or make a sharp break turn, but all i need to do is time the snap shot. A pilot that turns shallow, then turns sharp, and then flattens out makes it much more difficult to predict.

I recommend the acute angle so that your nose is pointed in the direction he is attacking from. Its not necessary to do a head on, but the idea is to increase the closing rate so he has less time to react, and since you aren't pointed straight at him it will be harder for him to get you in his site and on a predictable path.


Bill

Kettenhunde
02-25-2010, 05:00 AM
I think it takes as much skill and patience to energy fight as it does to "dogfight". Dogfighters just complain about them because it negates their limited skill set.


Both should be "dogfighting", One is in vertical and other the horizontal.

The aircraft which can sustain the highest load factor at the highest velocity can force the slower turning aircraft into a lower energy state.

That is why designers pushed for speed.

Choctaw111
02-25-2010, 05:44 AM
The one thing you can do that your opponent cannot do with his much greater speed is out turn him.
You will be able to turn inside of a diving fighter.
If your opponent bleeds off too much speed to try and turn with you, you should be able to get behind him.

Frankthetank36
02-25-2010, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:

If you want to be really great, you have to be able to do it all, turn and burn, zoom and boom, and ground-pound.

Unless you fly bombers. Then you can leave the TnBing and BnZing to the escorts and they are the ones to blame if you get shot down http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

stalkervision
02-25-2010, 09:14 AM
You could also try what the Ai does here. Totally unrealistic in a real plane but who cares. Go up and down and up and down like a roller coaster.

That drives me batty! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

rnzoli
02-25-2010, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:

If you want to be really great, you have to be able to do it all, turn and burn, zoom and boom, and ground-pound.

Unless you fly bombers. Then you can leave the TnBing and BnZing to the escorts and they are the ones to blame if you get shot down http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>So what about the time when I had to "dogfight" a Me-110 in my B-25 in order not to get shot down? OK, it was dark and the Me-110 was trailing fuel, but still... it was tough to win the duel http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Jumoschwanz
02-25-2010, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by Frankthetank36:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:

If you want to be really great, you have to be able to do it all, turn and burn, zoom and boom, and ground-pound.

Unless you fly bombers. Then you can leave the TnBing and BnZing to the escorts and they are the ones to blame if you get shot down http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a cool track I will post here if anyone wants it. It is of me flying a Ju-88 vs. a SpitMk9 that is trying to shoot me down.

The fight lasts about five minutes until the map runs out and I fly the Ju88 like a fighter, stay alive and get the Spit smoking.

It is a great help to know how to make fighters miss shots on you when you are flying a bomber. You can use all your skills from flying fighters.

When I fly the He-111 I will get in the nose and turn the AI to the nose cannon off. Then I will just fly it like a big fighter.

Once I bounced a couple of P-40s with it that I saw below me few thousand feet and I shot one down shooting the nose cannon just like a fighters guns, and got away from the other.

na85
02-26-2010, 02:20 AM
Haha, you should try flying some of the modded 4-engined heavies. The FMs are terrible, and the heavies can dive straight down from 5km+ and level out on the deck.

I bet you could do some serious bounces with that though.

Xiolablu3
02-26-2010, 03:34 AM
Designers pushed for speed because it gives the option to engage or disengage at will.

Andrew, remeber there is no shame in heading for teamates to help, or heading for home to save your plane for another day.

This is a fact of air combat. Only the 'games' force you to fight. In a 'sim', there is always the option to run, or find help.

Kettenhunde
02-26-2010, 04:08 AM
Designers pushed for speed because it gives the option to engage or disengage at will.


Designers pushed for speed because it expands all aspects of the envelope, including sustained level turn performance.

That is fact.

M_Gunz
02-26-2010, 04:39 AM
Does it lower the stall speed?

Kettenhunde
02-26-2010, 05:29 AM
More thrust does....

If you calculate thrust contribution to lift it is significant.

julian265
02-26-2010, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Designers pushed for speed because it gives the option to engage or disengage at will.


Designers pushed for speed because it expands all aspects of the envelope, including sustained level turn performance.

That is fact. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So not for the option to engage/disengage at will then?

M_Gunz
02-26-2010, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
More thrust does....

If you calculate thrust contribution to lift it is significant.

If you get more thrust for free then yes. WWII fighters I've seen got faster always at a cost with few exceptions.
Generally it was more, more, more although with certain prop changes there could be more without cost and no extra
armor/ammo/weapon thrown on as well.

Spitfires grew, 109's grew, FW's grew, Yaks, P-51's going from Allison to Merlin how went the stall?
P-47 started huge, did the paddle props lower the power-on stall? And P-38 might also have exceptions though adding
dive flaps and hydraulics didn't make them any lighter.

In general while I see there was a race for more speed they didn't seem to consider low speed handling to be
a priority over range, firepower or pilot protection.

Gadje
02-26-2010, 06:21 AM
He asked for practical in game advise. Don't turn this into yet another theoretical 'my sliderule is bigger than yours' p***ing competition......please!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

na85
02-26-2010, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by julian265:

So not for the option to engage/disengage at will then?

I suspect that that is included in "all aspects of the flight envelope"

Kettenhunde
02-26-2010, 02:01 PM
If you get more thrust for free then yes.

Not sure what you are talking about. What is "thrust for free".

When you increase the power to the engine, change the propeller, reduction gearing, rpm, etc...

These are all ways to increase thrust available to increase the performance of a design.

Designer did not replaced an existing variant with one of lesser performance to do the same job as a habit.

That is just kind of silly to do don't you think?

M_Gunz
02-26-2010, 02:45 PM
Free would be more thrust for no weight gain. Or less drag. Or less weight for the same kick and drag.
Any of those and I'll agree, the whole envelope gets bigger.

That is something I don't see much of in the progression of any line of WWII fighter designs. Sometimes
an improvement like different prop gave some depending on conditions. The better climb prop generally
isn't the better speed prop. But with every gain I also see other changes pushing the low end higher.

Did power on clean stall speed decrease over the Bf109 series? Max speed and ceiling sure did.

Same question only for Spitfires, FW's, P-40's, the list goes on. Did the Corsairs have better low
speed performance than the Wildcats they superseded?

The trend was there to some extent in WWI and between the wars, look at the Hurricane and the biplane
it came from!

All these progressions and newer, faster fighters... which had a lower stall speed? Seems to me that
low speed performance usually if not always took a rear seat to faster, higher, farther, etc.

Kettenhunde
02-26-2010, 03:05 PM
That is something I don't see much of in the progression of any line of WWII fighter designs.


You don't think getting 200-300hp is a gain??? It is not hard to gauge a performance improvement from an increase in thrust or to maintain a performance level, increase it, or add capability to any design.

I still don't understand what you are saying, exactly. Are you saying WWII airplanes got worse in performance as the designs progressed?

That is just not true. Aircraft are a system and it is not hard to anticipate changes to an operational type design. If the airplane is not improved, there is no need to waste time and resources building it.


Max speed and ceiling sure did.

Bf-109E to Bf-109K does not see an increase in Vmax?? I think there was a significant increase in performance. The Bf-109E was not in any form competative with the Kurfurst performance just as the Spitfire Mk I was not competative in any shape or form with the Spitfire Mk XIV.

Unless of course your gauge is flying around in circles at much lower speeds than the airplane was made to operate.

Stall speed is not a significant parameter for fighter aircraft unless the design is looking to turn small circles at low speeds. It is for the pilot and operating as the slower speeds are easier to land. For combat it is insignificant except to lower Va, increase our susceptibility to gusting loads, and decrease our stability as a gun platform.

M_Gunz
02-26-2010, 09:28 PM
Sure they saw more speed and higher Vmax. I stated that. Whole envelope has a left edge too, the low end
is what I've also posted about. Does the 109K-4 have a lower stall speed than the 109E-4? Which could turn
the tighter circle at sea level regardless of speed?

I don't see that the low end was considered a priority. Mostly I see the opposite.


Stall speed is not a significant parameter for fighter aircraft unless the design is looking to turn small circles at low speeds. It is for the pilot and operating as the slower speeds are easier to land. For combat it is insignificant except to lower Va, increase our susceptibility to gusting loads, and decrease our stability as a gun platform.

I guess you do to. However I do think that that area is also part of the envelope and it was not widened
there. Although perhaps slats and flaps should be considered devices just for such enhancements so perhaps
I err a bit there.

na85
02-26-2010, 10:22 PM
It's really too bad that Eastern Skies is down now. There were a couple of training tracks on that site that I found really instructive in my early days of il2 (thanks Josf and Hertt!).

One in particular was called "Defeating the BnZ" or something along those lines and featured a P-40 attempting to neutralize the energy advantage held by his opponent.

andrew8412
03-02-2010, 10:52 PM
Thanks for the advice guys. I'll definitely try this stuff out the next time I'm online.

I think a big part of the problem is that my own flying style is skewed too heavily towards BnZ so I'm pretty hopeless when I don't have that energy advantage myself.

Trefle
03-03-2010, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by andrew8412:
Thanks for the advice guys. I'll definitely try this stuff out the next time I'm online.

I think a big part of the problem is that my own flying style is skewed too heavily towards BnZ so I'm pretty hopeless when I don't have that energy advantage myself.

Nothing is more difficult than defending against ennemies with height/energy advantage , basically your only chance is to take advantage of their potential mistakes (well if you have a plane with exceptional climbrate it helps ) .


Online with a squad , you can also try to use the Soviet tactics of splitting the flights into pairs that fly at different altitudes and seperated by a reasonable distance (like 2 minutes of flight) , so that when the ennemy dive on you , if you manage to resist for some time and draw them lower , your friends will eventually jump on them and this will even the fight a little (well usually your ennemy also split his flight in pairs and leave quite a few very high , so you are still in disadvantage anyway , unless some of them become too greedy or if they have worse coordination as your team )

Kettenhunde
03-03-2010, 02:49 PM
Although perhaps slats

Slats are an attempt to have the advantages of good high speed performance while retaining low speed handling performance.

High wingloading is a way to ensure high cruise speeds and higher operating speeds.

Much of time gamers seem to focus on the Emergency Power performance which represents an extremely tiny portion of the airplanes envelope. The airplane cannot operate for more than a few minutes and ~3/4's of that tiny amount of time is spent reaching that level speed.

It is much more important what performance the aircraft achieves at maximum continuous and cruise speeds. That is where the airplane is primarily fought and operated.

The airplane with a higher cruise speed is going to have a dogfighting advantage in any neutral engagement.

stalkervision
03-03-2010, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Although perhaps slats

Slats are an attempt to have the advantages of good high speed performance while retaining low speed handling performance.

High wingloading is a way to ensure high cruise speeds and higher operating speeds.

Much of time gamers seem to focus on the Emergency Power performance which represents an extremely tiny portion of the airplanes envelope. The airplane cannot operate for more than a few minutes and ~3/4's of that tiny amount of time is spent reaching that level speed.

It is much more important what performance the aircraft achieves at maximum continuous and cruise speeds. That is where the airplane is primarily fought and operated.

The airplane with a higher cruise speed is going to have a dogfighting advantage in any neutral engagement. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very true. Aircraft can only operate at these max settings for a very short time and it eats up gas.

Kettenhunde
03-04-2010, 04:57 AM
Good point.

M_Gunz
03-05-2010, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by stalkervision:
Very true. Aircraft can only operate at these max settings for a very short time and it eats up gas.

Maybe that's why DF on small maps is liked so much?

Erkki_M
03-05-2010, 12:37 AM
Nope, thats solely because (many) people want instant action, and without any "boring and unfair" energy tactics, surprises etc. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Fuel is no issue but for perhaps Me-163. 109K is thirsty too, but with Air Quake distances its impossible to run out of fuel if you dont actually try to, and on more difficult settings and longer distances you have to take 25 or 50% and even still you might get downed or RTB before it runs out.

X32Wright
03-05-2010, 03:11 AM
Actually for me close bases ENCOURAGES TNBing rather than BNZing. Why? Because there isnt enough time for planes to get adequate alt ro properly BNZ unless you are in a BF-109 G2 AND YOU FLY AWAY from the fight area. If in a map with close bases you will surely find most people fighteing below 1K if not below 2K until one BNZs everyone and dies then everyone starts to get some alt but eventually again most people stay low and fly La7's and Spit25lbs plus Zeros. You will see some noob with a Bf-109 turning low however and dies often not wondering why.

Maps with multiple bases as well as FAR bases tends to encourage both TNB and BNZing since those in close bases will most likely meet at low alt and TNB and those who wants to find the time and alt would chose the far bases and engage with alt advantage. These are most likely the experienced fighters because they are willing to find the time to get alt and find the engage the enemy when it is to their advantage just like Hartmann,Oesau and others did.

You will find that the hardest people to fight are those that can BNZ in a Zero and TNB in a 109 every second of the fight depending on the relative energy state of the plane they're fighting. What I mean is they can BNZ and TNB every sec depending on their own energy state, if they're faster they 'climb and dive' more but when they become slower, the 'turn and turn' more and adapt at every second of the fight. This is called 'relative energy state' awareness and should be something a fighter pilot should always be aware of.

Kettenhunde
03-05-2010, 01:18 PM
to get adequate alt

If the airplanes are modeled realistically, you do not need any altitude advantage.

A very small velocity advantage translates into a very large zoom climb advantage.

Any aircraft that can sustain a higher Vmax can sustain a higher load factor at that altitude as well.

That is just physics.


Crumpp says:
The aircraft which can sustain the highest load factor at the highest velocity can force the slower turning aircraft into a lower energy state.

That is why designers pushed for speed.

K_Freddie
03-05-2010, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by Gadje:
He asked for practical in game advise. Don't turn this into yet another theoretical 'my sliderule is bigger than yours' p***ing competition......please!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
Funny it always seems to go that way.. maybe due to little 'flying' experience. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


What is "thrust for free"
Apparently a 'Perpetual Motion' machine is possible.
Denialists still have to break free of our limiting educational systems (or closed minds). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

M_Gunz
03-06-2010, 02:33 AM
What is "thrust for free"

It's called a more efficient prop/engine for those with more brains than mouth.

The thing with advice for flying is that without understanding how it works you can
easily turn anything into BS or get someone here to supply that for you. Kind of like
people who declare that FW's are really better slow flying turn fighters, right?
Or that flaps down is the best way to fly combat... that kind of fantasy.

Kettenhunde
03-06-2010, 03:34 AM
Apparently a 'Perpetual Motion' machine is possible.

Don't take M_Gunz's quote out of context K_Freddie and turn it into something else.

I asked M_Gunz to simply clarify the term he used which he did.

K_Freddie
03-06-2010, 04:54 AM
Poor old andrew8412 is going to have a psuedo aeronautics degree after asking a simple question.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Kettenhunde
03-06-2010, 06:05 AM
Poor old andrew8412 is going to have a psuedo aeronautics degree after asking a simple question..


If you keep quiet, he will just have some aeronautical knowledge.

Thanks!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

M_Gunz
03-06-2010, 06:40 AM
Originally posted by andrew8412:
Thanks for the advice guys. I'll definitely try this stuff out the next time I'm online.

I think a big part of the problem is that my own flying style is skewed too heavily towards BnZ so I'm pretty hopeless when I don't have that energy advantage myself.

Is there anything your BnZ targets do that gives you problems? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

K_Freddie
03-06-2010, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Kettenhunde:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Poor old andrew8412 is going to have a psuedo aeronautics degree after asking a simple question..


If you keep quiet, he will just have some aeronautical knowledge.

Thanks!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing ..

A pleasure..
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

K_Freddie
03-06-2010, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Or that flaps down is the best way to fly combat... that kind of fantasy.
Andrew.. if the situation demands that you do this to gain advantage.. you quiet simply use flaps. You'll find that even if your attacker is BnZ'ing you at high speed, using flaps at the right moment can help you get a 'solution' much quicker, thereby causing damage on the attacker - this makes it your 'ad'.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kettenhunde
03-08-2010, 06:29 PM
A pleasure..

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kettenhunde
03-09-2010, 06:43 PM
So not for the option to engage/disengage at will then?


The ability to engage and disengage at will is a key component.

However it does not win air superiority. The ability to engage enemy fighters and destroy them is what wins air superiority.

Speed expands all portions of the envelope and most critically for a WWII Fighter aircraft; entails the ability to sustain a higher load factor at a higher velocity.

M_Gunz
03-09-2010, 07:27 PM
if the situation demands that you do this to gain advantage..

Then you screwed up your tactics and continue to corner yourself. It's a move born of either desperation
or lack of skill.

How to defend against an energy advantage: lower your own energy even more.

AndyJWest
03-09-2010, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">if the situation demands that you do this to gain advantage..

Then you screwed up your tactics and continue to corner yourself. It's a move born of either desperation
or lack of skill.

How to defend against an energy advantage: lower your own energy even more. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, MG, but 'desperation' may actually be the best tactics. Ultimately, a one-on-one dogfight isn't about who runs out of energy first, but about who delivers the fatal blow with guns. If you fill your opponent with holes, then drop into a spin because you've 'wasted' all your energy, you win.

If dogfighting was purely about the conservation of energy, it would be boring. If it was always about using the 'best' tactics, it would be boring, was it not for the fact that sometimes the best thing to do is not to do the 'best thing'...

M_Gunz
03-09-2010, 10:06 PM
IF you can be sure your desperate move will work then fine.
If it doesn't then you're even more screwed than before.

AndyJWest
03-09-2010, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
IF you can be sure your desperate move will work then fine.
If it doesn't then you're even more screwed than before.

On the face of it this might seem to make sense, but dogfighting isn't chess. You only have limited information about what your opponent has done, and sometimes you have to take a chance, and limit this information even further - a classic example would be pulling 'lead' on an opponent so you can't see him any more, in order to get a deflection shot. You can often only do this by accepting you will lose sight of your opponent, and risk him doing something unexpected. Ultimately it comes down to estimating probabilities, based on the limited information you have, rather than being 'sure' about anything. As a practical example, I'm sure that you could calculate the 'best' way to deal with an attack by a particular plane in a particular situation, when you are likewise in a known situation. I'm also sure that this 'best' way won't work if your opponent knows what it is...

M_Gunz
03-10-2010, 04:21 AM
Being greedy is the best way to lose. Done it enough times myself.

PS: BTW there are exceptions to everything. My practice and advice is to avoid the bad ones.
When attacked from an energy advantage I try to shift and possibly reverse the situation.
That doesn't mean make myself an easy target. If I can get the other to blow more energy in
a move that costs me some then I'm okay with that.
I make my plans and don't let myself get herded or suckered into playing the others' game.
I've danced on enough heads to know what the attacker wants, I don't give that up on a chance.
When you have the energy advantage then getting your target to lose energy is how you gain,
you don't even have to fire a shot to decide the fight if you can get him to crash himself.
A maneuver-kill like that is the most elegant victory I know.

K_Freddie
03-10-2010, 01:36 PM
Well if you think about it..
If your attacker BnZs you and then sees tracers flying past his pit.. he's going to be more cautious next time.

He'd now have to rethink his energy tactics. This does give the defender a lot of 'leverage', and if sensible enough, can reduce the energy advantage.

Ultimately it's a game where (as I said a 1000x before) the person with the best imagination is most likely to win, no matter which aircraft.

Pilot-vs-Plane/Tactic thingy
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

M_Gunz
03-10-2010, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by K_Freddie:
Well if you think about it..
If your attacker BnZs you and then sees tracers flying past his pit.. he's going to be more cautious next time.

He might even get cautious enough to use a better exit strategy and avoid the tracers totally.
That's what Erich Hartmann did, 100's of times!


He'd now have to rethink his energy tactics.

We do agree there.


This does give the defender a lot of 'leverage', and if sensible enough, can reduce the energy advantage.

Ultimately it's a game where (as I said a 1000x before) the person with the best imagination is most likely to win, no matter which aircraft.

Pilot-vs-Plane/Tactic thingy
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Raaaid imagines he can power the world on perpetual motion machines so he must be Super-Ace!
Or could it be that what you imagine actually has to work?

Sure the target has threat value. Who said it does not? No attack is perfectly safe. Still there's a whole
school of tactic set on beating an evading target's energy down to where he can't pull enough g's to avoid
an easy shot. And that's if you didn't already clip or kill on the way in.

Are you flying with external views or no cockpit? It's different when you have to figure out not only where
the shots came from but "which way did he go, George" when he doesn't just fly out in front of you. Seconds
count, what controls action you do take after you pop flaps? Or is it move stick and rudder, then pop flaps?

PS: see if you can't do better with a climbing turn --as the Russians did when attacked from above by faster
enemies--. You are more impossible to follow than in a flat turn for an attacker moving much faster than you.
You shouldn't need to pull more G's than your plane can sustain doing flat 360's if the enemy is closing fast.

At best sustained turn speed you can maneuver up to the force of your best sustained maximum turn. If you fly
harder then you will slow down and no longer be able to turn as hard as long until you recover your speed.

What do you do when the closing attacker fires from long range and you "see the tracers"? Do you wait for the
last second or do you roll and pull in reflex, say into the it-happens-to-be-a-deflection attack as you figure
(or saw in external-view or WW view) by the angle of the tracers? So you crank an un-followable decreasing
(with speed) radius turn only... he is about 400m back when your circle is obvious and can pull lead on you
while pulling a fraction of what you are: the slower you go, the smaller your circle, the less he has to turn
to stay pointing ahead of you.
He can strike you from one side, the side you turn in to when you turn in to the attack .. and exit behind you
going the other way and up or away. If you turn away from the attack then he has a better shot with more trigger
time so be sure to imagine trying "it's coming from the right so I'll turn left and catch him when he goes by".

K_Freddie
03-11-2010, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
PS: see if you can't do better with a climbing turn --as the Russians did when attacked from above by faster
enemies--.
Always use this - plus there's another little trick to help the attacker on his way.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's all 'fluid action' as mentioned before.