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AllorNothing117
08-01-2009, 08:24 AM
i'd like to explore this in a little more depth. Here's a few questions to kick us off.

- Whilst in the Zoom, i.e. the verticle or near verticle climb after the high seed dive, at what point, or speed, do you start to level out. Do you hang in to get as high as possible, to get the extra couple of hundred meters, or do you level off at a nice easy speed like 250 Knots, sacrificing the last few hundred meters for an easy level out at higher speed?

- Whilst in the Boom, what is the minimum convergence? If you fet your convergence to say, 150 meter, do you think you'll be abel to pull off a good shot? Or will you be going so fast that by the time you get to 150 meter you have to pull to avoid colision.

I'm still experimenting, though I useualy go for about 200meter convergence for wingmounted guns. and I useualy level out at about 220 knots, or there abouts. What do you guys do?

VW-IceFire
08-01-2009, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by AllorNothing117:
i'd like to explore this in a little more depth. Here's a few questions to kick us off.

- Whilst in the Zoom, i.e. the verticle or near verticle climb after the high seed dive, at what point, or speed, do you start to level out. Do you hang in to get as high as possible, to get the extra couple of hundred meters, or do you level off at a nice easy speed like 250 Knots, sacrificing the last few hundred meters for an easy level out at higher speed?

- Whilst in the Boom, what is the minimum convergence? If you fet your convergence to say, 150 meter, do you think you'll be abel to pull off a good shot? Or will you be going so fast that by the time you get to 150 meter you have to pull to avoid colision.

I'm still experimenting, though I useualy go for about 200meter convergence for wingmounted guns. and I useualy level out at about 220 knots, or there abouts. What do you guys do?
The zoom doesn't have to be so radical. Thats a mistake that often gets people killed. Its better to achieve fast separation in terms of horizontal difference (because you can do this faster) than vertical difference. If you go straight into the vertical its possible for the guy on defense to make a shot at you as you zoom. I prefer a 30-40 degree climb out. Depending on the situation I may go straight 90 degree up and hammer head over...but you have to know that nobody else is around waiting for you to hang as a easy target. More typically I'll wing over and reposition for a second pass trying to keep my speed above 250kph.

My convergence is at 250 meters. I find myself firing at that distance or a bit more in order to fine tune my shooting as I close in on the target.

deskpilot
08-01-2009, 09:26 AM
Icefire's comment is informative to me as I've just been practicing bnz in a p47 vrs easy targets (c47s) to start to get the hang of this bnz thing and I tended to climb more steeply than icefire suggested. The point about the horizontal vs vertical separation is interesting. One thing I do wrong is let myself get too slow at the top of the climb. OK vs c47s but not ok v anything with guns!!
Any more hints gratefully received. There was a great video of a p47 diving on b17s, as a demo of good bnz v bombers. Anyone know where it is? I've searched but can't find it.

Gammelpreusse
08-01-2009, 10:31 AM
Originally posted by AllorNothing117:
i'd like to explore this in a little more depth. Here's a few questions to kick us off.

- Whilst in the Boom, what is the minimum convergence? If you fet your convergence to say, 150 meter, do you think you'll be abel to pull off a good shot? Or will you be going so fast that by the time you get to 150 meter you have to pull to avoid colision.

I'm still experimenting, though I useualy go for about 200meter convergence for wingmounted guns. and I useualy level out at about 220 knots, or there abouts. What do you guys do?

As ICefire already ansered the first question, I'll take on the other one.
Depends on what guns you use. The 50 cals usually require a bit more time on the target then cannons, that means setting your convergence to too short distances may give a too short a fire time to do serious damage. For me in general something between 150 and 200 meters/yards does the trick. You will have to find your own ideal settings by routine and training or simply use the US standart settings in case you are up to flying US birds. It helps giving both your tiggers different convergences to sature a greater area.

Not a question of yours, but something a lot of people kinda ignore....Often it is much better not to dive directly onto your target, but behind and under it before pulling up again.

There are several advantages to this tactic. First one, it will be harder for your opponent to detect you and even more importantly, you will have much better deflection shooting capabilities. It also helps to already be in the pull up again while passing the target.

ROXunreal
08-01-2009, 11:00 AM
I use 250 convergence with cannons for BnZ and open fire at about 300 meters, even more afar when shooting at bombers

GH_Klingstroem
08-01-2009, 11:12 AM
As u go overhead at the top of a vertical zoom climb, use flaps to help the plane perform the manouver. I sometimes go as far as using landingflaps at the top of my zoom. Dont forget to raise them again as soon as the nose points downwards again...

My tactic was always to stay "right on top of my enemy" If that means that I have to climb vertcially, then that is what I will do. If u zoom away at 40 degrees, sure u will keep a distance from u enemy, but then what?? At some point u need to turn and then he will cut the corner and shorten the distance to you no matter what u do.
Naah, Ill stick to my tactic, staying just right above his head at all times when possible and then do vertical dives and vertical climbs till he goes down...

Gammelpreusse
08-01-2009, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by GH_Klingstroem:
As u go overhead at the top of a vertical zoom climb, use flaps to help the plane perform the manouver. I sometimes go as far as using landingflaps at the top of my zoom. Dont forget to raise them again as soon as the nose points downwards again...

My tactic was always to stay "right on top of my enemy" If that means that I have to climb vertcially, then that is what I will do. If u zoom away at 40 degrees, sure u will keep a distance from u enemy, but then what?? At some point u need to turn and then he will cut the corner and shorten the distance to you no matter what u do.
Naah, Ill stick to my tactic, staying just right above his head at all times when possible and then do vertical dives and vertical climbs till he goes down...

*nods* been there myself. Lately, however, I do it the Hartman way. Attack, get away, then take a a look around, then "maybe" attack a second time. Displacement rolls work wonders for that.

Mostly that has to do with the problem of zooming straight up. Often the target manages to get a few shots of and sometimes even hits as long your energy advantage is not vastly superiour. Also, the probabilty of beeing hit by a second bandit while beeing slow at the top of the zoom got me into trouble way too often.

Nowadays my priorities have shifted to survival from formerly just killing.

general_kalle
08-01-2009, 01:08 PM
if he has the energy to follow you some of the way you dont want to end up hanging in your prop making a great almost stationary target, instead you want to level out nice and easy to get away.

however i find that if you are zooming and booming bombers or a fighter too low on energy to follow you anywhere and theres no enemy fighters near you its nice to hang on your prop and then hammerhead around coming down again from maximum altitude.

hammerhead is when you hang in your prop and then hit hard rudder.

if you do right rudder you might want to do a little left ailron to keep it from rolling while your nose is moving to be pointing downwards.
idea is to make your nose point down again so you can make another zoom and boom attack.
but for god sake dont touch the elevator while doing hammerhead or you might spin out of control, leave it Neutral.

but dont hang on your prop with other fighters around..you make a very nice target.

M_Gunz
08-01-2009, 02:10 PM
If you attack enough from the side (4 or 8) then you can exit behind the target, across his path and not put
yourself in front of his guns by a good 90 degrees. The vertical version is to dive below and exit behind on
the way up.

How far to shoot from depends on your closing speed. If you close at 100+ m/s then you need time as distance
to fire and still maneuver to exit without ramming the target.

freakvollder
08-01-2009, 03:34 PM
Hallo
I think that it is very important to know how you energy state is in relation to the enemy plane. Hammerhead BNZ is very dangerous if you have only a little energy advantage. Ideally the enemy plane should stalling out when you have completed you hammerhead, in this way you have e very easy target. Few people know how to go against an BNZing Plane. They try and try and try to shoot at you all the time http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The main task of boom and zooming is to keep the bogey in sight. Convergence matters little when you know how you can hit the target http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifGo for deflection shoots.

~S~

BillSwagger
08-01-2009, 06:31 PM
My gun convergence is set more or less at 300M.

If i were flying strictly BnZ i would probably set them longer. That faster you are moving toward a target, the harder those bullets hit.
If you can get a nice steady bead on target from 600M as you close to 300-200M, it would be very effective.
The closer you get to a slower target, the more difficult it will be to adjust your aim.

M_Gunz
08-01-2009, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by BillSwagger:
My gun convergence is set more or less at 300M.

If i were flying strictly BnZ i would probably set them longer. That faster you are moving toward a target, the harder those bullets hit.
If you can get a nice steady bead on target from 600M as you close to 300-200M, it would be very effective.
The closer you get to a slower target, the more difficult it will be to adjust your aim.

If you know your closing speed, the distance to the target and how long it takes your shots to cross that distance
then you can guess at how much extra range you should effectively shoot at. For example if the shots would take 1/2
second to cover 300m and you are closing at 100 m/s then you should shoot at 350m to make a hit at 300m since the
target is effectively coming closer by 50m by the time the shots arrive. There is a LOT of gray, of estimation between
the reality and the guessing but then there is a lot of give in shots close to, at and the close to on the way past
convergence as well. 100 m/s closure is the same as being 360 kph faster from directly behind or less that faster
coming from deflection, possibly far less to no speed difference even depending on the angle.

With closure the convergence you want is not the range when you shoot but the range from when you shoot to when the
target is hit. Closing fast, shoot long. Count that also when figuring leading shots for the timing of the hit.

na85
08-03-2009, 06:05 PM
One mistake I used to make a lot (and sometimes still do) is to zoom way in while on approach as I fire, and then pull up as I complete the guns pass.

What I try to do now is shoot zoomed out (better idea of how far away I am) and instead of pulling back on the stick I try to push forward and dip under the enemy, which results in far fewer collisions when closing at extremely high speed.

WTE_Galway
08-03-2009, 06:33 PM
couple of comments ...

- when packing more than one mk108 you do not necessarily need to avoid the target after firing its often possible to fly straight through the wee bit of wreckage that's left

- if approaching target at a speed less than in game Vne its sometimes more practical to actually continue diving until you hit Vne and then zoom climb