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View Full Version : Non-Adjustable Rudder Trim......................



LEBillfish
11-28-2005, 08:16 AM
Hi All;

Simple concern, that being some planes do not "ever" trim out till in a high speed dive.

Virtually all planes had trim adjustment of some sort be it to make up for flying at a cruising mode, or simply to compensate for manufacturing differences between planes......

Now few had "active trim" for the rudder where in you could adjust it. Many had "trim tabs" to gradually tweak in trim after each flight. Lastly, virtually all had some way to "preset" some sort of trim in the control surface be it altering the length of rods or cables to the control surface or whatever.......The end goal to have the plane trim out in ideal cruise mode or at some point felt most important that it would.

Trouble is, not all planes here ever trim out.

Now I can appreciate the fact with many you can reduce rpm/pp to reach the goal, that actually ideal in some regards as you'd not fly in "cruise" flat out....Trouble is, those planes that allow you to do that "cannot" hold the speed and quickly begin to lose altitude and speed as the plane struggles to fly.

Others trim can simply NEVER be reached unless you throw the plane into a dive and surpass any of the level flight abilities.

It doesn't make sense to me.......ALL planes should trim out at cruise speed/alt/rpm/prop pitch......When that optimum state is reached "viola" rudder is trimmed.

Unfortunately on many it just simply never does or when it does it cannot fly gradually falling.

All planes would be adjustable....Even those in WWI were simply by making pedal positioned centered while the rudder was off center simply by adjusting the lengths of the cables from side to side.

So why can't we ever reach trim here?

Viper2005_
11-28-2005, 09:28 AM
Which aircraft in particular are causing you trouble?

LEBillfish
11-28-2005, 09:45 AM
Those that come to immediate mind would be the Japanese Army aircraft (Ki-43/61/84/100) the FW-190's and BF109s.......You can achieve trim in all 2 ways......Dive which you'll reach it yet then instantly pass it so not counting....Or drop throttle (those requiring it Prop Pitch).....Yet when you reach trim you'll fall from the sky unable to keep speed up.

So in the end usable rudder trim never happens.

badatflyski
11-28-2005, 11:56 AM
lebillfish, i don't know anything about the japanees aircraft but i can tell you about the 190: this plane was trimmed on the ground for flying straight on cruise speed, it means about 55% power, the only thing the pilot could trim was the horizontal stuff (forgot the english word..sorry) by using a little "rotary" on the left console (if you look in you cockpit, you will notice it...but it doesn't work in the game, it dont show what angle your trim is...a little shame). actually, it was the whole horizontal stabilisator that was moving up/down with the help of an electrical engine.(something similar was also in the 109)
And about the 190 on cruise, if you keep a really flat flight with the ball in the center, you will not loose any speed, you will keep a constant speed.
voil√ √ √ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LEBillfish
11-28-2005, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by badatflyski:
lebillfish, i don't know anything about the japanees aircraft but i can tell you about the 190: this plane was trimmed on the ground for flying straight on cruise speed, it means about 55% power, the only thing the pilot could trim was the horizontal stuff (forgot the english word..sorry) by using a little "rotary" on the left console (if you look in you cockpit, you will notice it...but it doesn't work in the game, it dont show what angle your trim is...a little shame). actually, it was the whole horizontal stabilisator that was moving up/down with the help of an electrical engine.(something similar was also in the 109)
And about the 190 on cruise, if you keep a really flat flight with the ball in the center, you will not loose any speed, you will keep a constant speed.
voil√ √ √ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Yes, I agree the FW190, infact all I mention do that........Point being you cannot hold that speed/engine combination in level flight....Speed begins to drop, plane begins to descend, and the only way to keep it in level flight is to bump the power hence losing trim.

Essentially, you can't "cruise" hence trim, and the Ki-61/84/100 are worse.....From the 190 is how I decided to try it on them.

Viper2005_
11-28-2005, 01:13 PM
I haven't noticed any major issues with the Fw-190 - I'll have to carry out some testing. It's my primary aeroplane in game, so it's quite possible that I've simply got used to compensating for any problem...

VW-IceFire
11-28-2005, 03:10 PM
FW190 seems to trim out at around between 410kph IAS and 430kph IAS. The Ki-100 or Ki-61 I haven't been able to find the same sweet spot.

GR142-Pipper
11-29-2005, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
It doesn't make sense to me.......ALL planes should trim out at cruise speed/alt/rpm/prop pitch......When that optimum state is reached "viola" rudder is trimmed. Interestingly, even some aircraft in which the pilot can trim the rudders still crab in the game even when the ball is centered. Take a Yak up, center the ball using the rudder and then go to external views and look how the airplane tracks. You'll see it is likely still crabbing. This shouldn't be. Another simple test is to trim out the rudder load on the stick until the aircraft "feels" in trim. Then look at the trim ball. Chances are the ball will not be centered. If the aircraft is crabbing while the ball is centered it is called flying "out of rig". Strange but true in this game. Go figure.

GR142-Pipper

TooCooL34
11-29-2005, 06:54 AM
"Out of rig" is the good representation of Russian airplanes' faultiness for all their best performances, isn't it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p1ngu666
11-29-2005, 07:08 AM
only the lagg/la series and i185

the rest, especialy yaks and il2s are difficult to fly

LeadSpitter_
11-29-2005, 10:20 AM
when will the light ac have rudder occilations and heavy ac be very stable with very low occilations like reality? Also making them better gun platform not swayfests.

HQ1
11-29-2005, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by badatflyski:
lebillfish, i don't know anything about the japanees aircraft but i can tell you about the 190: this plane was trimmed on the ground for flying straight on cruise speed, it means about 55% power, the only thing the pilot could trim was the horizontal stuff (forgot the english word..sorry) by using a little "rotary" on the left console (if you look in you cockpit, you will notice it...but it doesn't work in the game, it dont show what angle your trim is...a little shame). actually, it was the whole horizontal stabilisator that was moving up/down with the help of an electrical engine.(something similar was also in the 109)
And about the 190 on cruise, if you keep a really flat flight with the ball in the center, you will not loose any speed, you will keep a constant speed.
voil√ √ √ http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
No you can find a elevator trim indicator on left console in 190 in this game. It can works well to show the angle of the trim. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GR142-Pipper
11-29-2005, 06:40 PM
Originally posted by TooCooL34:
"Out of rig" is the good representation of Russian airplanes' faultiness for all their best performances, isn't it? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm just describing how these particular aircraft fly...no more, no less.

GR142-Pipper

msalama
11-29-2005, 10:32 PM
I'm just describing how these particular aircraft fly...no more, no less.

Well I did try the Yak-3 out yesterday with throttle and RPM settings from 100 to 50%, and it was possible in all cases to trim the rudder so that the AC wasn't crabbing (i.e. it was flying straight as an arrow) when the ball was centered. Oh, the bugger surely is lively and volatile, meaning one has to give it some time to settle after a configuration change, and one also has to make small control corrections almost constantly even when it _is_ configured for straight & level flight - but isn't this to be expected with a fighter so light and yet quite powerful?

But then again, _is_ this behaviour realistic, or is the bugger too unstable? Dunno, 'cause I don't have any real knowledge of the type. So U guys tell me...

PS. Got track(tm) if someone wants it.

ColoradoBBQ
11-29-2005, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Those that come to immediate mind would be the Japanese Army aircraft (Ki-43/61/84/100) the FW-190's and BF109s.......You can achieve trim in all 2 ways......Dive which you'll reach it yet then instantly pass it so not counting....Or drop throttle (those requiring it Prop Pitch).....Yet when you reach trim you'll fall from the sky unable to keep speed up.

So in the end usable rudder trim never happens.

You shouldn't rely on just the engine to achieve trim since its difficult when the engine is slow to respond. Try pitching your aircraft up or down slightly for a better control on your airspeed.

GR142-Pipper
11-30-2005, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm just describing how these particular aircraft fly...no more, no less.

Well I did try the Yak-3 out yesterday with throttle and RPM settings from 100 to 50%, and it was possible in all cases to trim the rudder so that the AC wasn't crabbing (i.e. it was flying straight as an arrow) when the ball was centered. Oh, the bugger surely is lively and volatile, meaning one has to give it some time to settle after a configuration change, and one also has to make small control corrections almost constantly even when it _is_ configured for straight & level flight - but isn't this to be expected with a fighter so light and yet quite powerful? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Not like this aircraft in the game requires. Btw, broaden your flight test conditions and you'll see the "out of rig" condition readily. Do the testing on-line. I'm just not making this up.

GR142-Pipper

msalama
11-30-2005, 06:15 AM
I'm just not making this up.

OK man, I believe you. I tested the thing in normal flight conditions - well inside the flight envelope, that is - and I really didn't throw it around at all. The plane _was_ trimmable, however, in those conditions.


Do the testing on-line.

Echhhh... See my sig http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But as an aside, I _have_ ventured on-line lately, and done OK (http://vp1.telija.net/il2sc/index.php?navigation=) as well. See the bomber pilot's top 10 there - the nick is MSa...