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cawimmer430
01-18-2008, 05:23 AM
Here's a short interview with a German Stalingrad veteran. It's not very in-depth about the war but some of you might find it interesting nonetheless. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Siegfried Lessey fought at Stalingrad until January 1943. He's a soldier on one of the most famous pictures of the battle taken by the Soviets.

The Scan
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/616/stalingradbl3.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=stalingradbl3.jpg)

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1274/stalingradsmallrr4.jpg

Siegfriend Lessey is the third soldier from the right. The Stern description was pretty poor so I am not quite sure which third soldier they're talking about. The guys in the first or second row? No idea.


What do you remember from New Years Eve in 1942?
We were surrounded by the Russians and there was chaos all around us. I passed Christmas and Silvester in a bunker with some comrades. The snow was meters high. We had no wood but at least we still had something to eat.

Where did you get your food?
The Luftwaffe supplied us with food. I used a tent to collect bread and meat loaf and then together with a comrade slaughtered a horse.

And the worst was about to happen...
On January 15 our reconnaissance tank ran out of fuel and we had to abandon it. My crew and I walked through the high snow towards our airfield at Gumrak. There we saw soldiers literally kill each other to get a spot on the airplanes to freedom. We saw that it was pointless.

How did things go for you from this point on?
We went back into the destroyed city center of Stalingrad and had to fight as infantry soldiers. Our comrades died like flies. Still we believed tha everything would turn out alright - until we heard Göing's radio announcement on January 30. The next morning we surrendered and became prisoners of war.

And this is where this famous picture was taken?
We were woken up at 9:00 AM, chased and marched until 11:00 PM to a collection camp in Beketowka. I still had my watch so I knew the time. It was terrible. We were shot at and many of our comrades were to weak to walk. By the way, we also saw how General Paulus was driven past us. We booed him.

When did you first see this photo?
My son showed it to me four years ago. He said, "Look! Isn't that you?" My wife and I didn't have to think twice. The third soldier from the right is me!

Can you identify the other soldiers with you?
On the far right is Alfred Kök from Leipzig. He was my driver. Between us is Erich Keil, our radioman. He was from Berlin. Both of them probably died in Russian captivity. I don't know who the other soldiers are.

How did you manage to survive?
I was very athletic to begin with. I had to work in a cement factory and a sawmill. Everyone suffered from starvation. I only weighed around 68 or 69 pounds. Seven years in a row I was woken at 5:00 AM. Then we had a herbal soup, a spoon of some sort of brew and a loaf of bread. Seven years long! At least the soup tasted good.

Did you have contact with your family?
Only in 1947 or 1948 did a card from wife arrive. She wrote me that our son, Ulrich, was born on July 11th, 1943. She had sewn a photograph of him unto the card. This goes back to when I was back home on vacation. I married my girlfriend Elsa on October 10, 1942. Then I was sent back to the Russian front...

When did you see her again?
1949, when I was released and came home.

Do you speak a lot about your experiences at Stalingrad?
Well there were some "good times" such as the theater group during our captivity of which I was a part off. Then the Christmas songs we sang in the bunker while awaiting the new year. I was actually a funny guy. Even while we were encircled did I sing the song "Davon geht die Welt nicht unter (The world won't go under from this)". Of course I also had a lot of bad dreams about this topic.

What do you do nowadays to pass time?
I watch a lot of sport. I'm a big Hertha-BSC fan. Another thing I like to do is being lazy. I'm allowed to be lazy. I'm 92 years old!

flyingloon
01-18-2008, 05:35 AM
thanks for posting that cawimmer, he was one of the lucky ones who returned home, didn't think any of them were left now.
coincidentally i'm just reading "blood red snow" (i forget the author), account of a heavy machine gunner who was around stalingrad and managed to escape the kessel. very interesting and pretty well written, i'd recommend it to anyone with an interest.

Insuber
01-18-2008, 05:50 AM
Looking at the two pictures it is clear that he is the very third from the right,the resemblance is evident. No wonder he survived to his pictured comrades, the energy and determination in his eyes are striking, while the terrible thing of this picture is that the others look like dead men walking.

Regards,
Insuber

cawimmer430
01-18-2008, 05:57 AM
Originally posted by flyingloon:
thanks for posting that cawimmer, he was one of the lucky ones who returned home, didn't think any of them were left now.
coincidentally i'm just reading "blood red snow" (i forget the author), account of a heavy machine gunner who was around stalingrad and managed to escape the kessel. very interesting and pretty well written, i'd recommend it to anyone with an interest.


Anytime. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

That book sounds very interesting. It's always interesting to read the personal accounts of people who've experienced it. There was an ex-Waffen SS soldier here who fought near Stalingrad and later in Yugoslavia. He died recently too, sometime in November 2007 I believe. This guy often talked about his experiences during the war and even showed you his wounds. His whole body has scars from shrapnel, bullets etc. He once almost lost his right arm at the elbow when a salvo of bullets from an enemy machine gun hit him there as he was preparing to lob a grenade. He also said that he personally took part in the execution of some Yugoslavian partisans his unit had captured after they had found mutilated bodies of their fellow Waffen SS comrades in the same region. I mean HOLY ****!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif And he tells you this just like that? I had so many questions for this guy but he was still very busy late in his life with his flower shop and now he's dead.

I myself just finished reading a book called "Hitler's Jewish Soldiers" by Bryan Mark Rigg.

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8275/hjs01xh2.jpg

Incredible. About 150,000 German soldiers of various Jewish decent (1/3, 1/2, 3/4 and in rare cases full Jews) served in the Wehrmacht, Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe during World War II. There were even two German Jews who served in the Waffen SS, one of them a full-Jew (!!!) too! This book is well written and really explains ab lot about German Jews and how they initially thought the Nazis were against Eastern European Jewry and not German since the German Jews had integrated themselves into German society and felt more German than Jewish. It gets very complicated, so buy the book and read it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Below is a propaganda photograph of the "ideal German soldier" as it was labeled. Only problem is that the soldier in the photograph is "half-Jewish". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Werner Goldberg (very Jewish name too).

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4820/hjs02mi1.jpg

cawimmer430
01-18-2008, 06:05 AM
Oh, before I forget! There was a mention in this book about a 100+ Luftwaffe fighter pilot ace who was of Jewish extraction. The name wasn't mentioned, but Rigg tells us that this pilot probably served in Johannes Steinhoff's squad since Steinhoff had personally spoken and complained to Goering about the Gestapo being very nosy about this particular pilot. Steinhoff had said that this guy is a loyal German and he was always afraid that after coming back from a mission and landing that the Gestapo would be waiting for him. Goering saw to it that the Gestapo "buggered off". It's interesting to note that Goering protected all the Jews in the Luftwaffe, despite having a hand in the Final Solution. Erhard Milch was even of Jewish extraction. Like I said, READ THIS BOOK! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Anyone know who this pilot might be? Those were all the facts given.

Rickustyit
01-18-2008, 06:35 AM
Very interesting.

Thank you Christian.


Riccardo

http://jshobbies.net/catalog/images/HA09444.jpg

TgD Thunderbolt56
01-18-2008, 06:45 AM
This is interesting and very cool to be able to get some insight into a famous photo like this. As was already surmised, the circled face is obviously Mr. Lessey:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/Thunderbolt56/stalingradsmallrr4.jpg

Nice post. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

SeaFireLIV
01-18-2008, 06:58 AM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:
Oh, before I forget! There was a mention in this book about a 100+ Luftwaffe fighter pilot ace who was of Jewish extraction. The name wasn't mentioned, but Rigg tells us that this pilot probably served in Johannes Steinhoff's squad since Steinhoff had personally spoken and complained to Goering about the Gestapo being very nosy about this particular pilot. Steinhoff had said that this guy is a loyal German and he was always afraid that after coming back from a mission and landing that the Gestapo would be waiting for him. Goering saw to it that the Gestapo "buggered off". It's interesting to note that Goering protected all the Jews in the Luftwaffe, despite having a hand in the Final Solution. Erhard Milch was even of Jewish extraction. Like I said, READ THIS BOOK! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Anyone know who this pilot might be? Those were all the facts given.

VERY interesting. I`ve read much about how the Russian infantry and pilots suffered on the eastern front but not so much on the Germans. War is hell, everyone suffers.

The topic about a jewish extraction pilot being picked on, yet kept safe by his commanding pilot and goering really shows that not all in the 3rd reich, even though they flew for the system, agreed with everything wholeheartedly.

There`s hope yet!

cawimmer430
01-18-2008, 07:01 AM
Originally posted by Rickustyit:
Very interesting.

Thank you Christian.

Riccardo

http://jshobbies.net/catalog/images/HA09444.jpg

Anytime. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif




Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
This is interesting and very cool to be able to get some insight into a famous photo like this. As was already surmised, the circled face is obviously Mr. Lessey:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/Thunderbolt56/stalingradsmallrr4.jpg

Nice post. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Anytime and thanks. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

cawimmer430
01-18-2008, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cawimmer430:
Oh, before I forget! There was a mention in this book about a 100+ Luftwaffe fighter pilot ace who was of Jewish extraction. The name wasn't mentioned, but Rigg tells us that this pilot probably served in Johannes Steinhoff's squad since Steinhoff had personally spoken and complained to Goering about the Gestapo being very nosy about this particular pilot. Steinhoff had said that this guy is a loyal German and he was always afraid that after coming back from a mission and landing that the Gestapo would be waiting for him. Goering saw to it that the Gestapo "buggered off". It's interesting to note that Goering protected all the Jews in the Luftwaffe, despite having a hand in the Final Solution. Erhard Milch was even of Jewish extraction. Like I said, READ THIS BOOK! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Anyone know who this pilot might be? Those were all the facts given.

VERY interesting. I`ve read much about how the Russian infantry and pilots suffered on the eastern front but not so much on the Germans. War is hell, everyone suffers.

The topic about a jewish extraction pilot being picked on, yet kept safe by his commanding pilot and goering really shows that not all in the 3rd reich, even though they flew for the system, agreed with everything wholeheartedly.

There`s hope yet! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anytime. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

And yep, this is the reason I recommend this book. It really opens up your mind about the situation of Jews in Germany and the German military.

In many cases, the commanding officers knew a soldier was Jewish but didn't care. As they put it, these guys fought for Germany, displayed courage and loyalty (the Nazis said the Jews were wimps and were backstabbers) and on the battlefield nobody cares where you came from.

Many German Jews in the military also fought because they believed that if they fought for Nazi Germany their parents and family members would be kept out of harms way. Often this was true, but often it also wasn't.

There's a lot to talk about here, but it is very complicated and the book really explains it well. I definitely recommend it. 15/10 my rating. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
01-18-2008, 07:27 AM
...I'm allowed to be lazy. I'm 92 years old!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

Heliopause
01-18-2008, 11:21 AM
Nice read, thanks.
I think the interviewer is Dutch looking at the name. (André Groenewoud).

JG52Uther
01-18-2008, 11:51 AM
Amazing!

knightflyte
01-18-2008, 12:53 PM
I vote this as top posting of '07 - '08. This story is enlightening without being hero worship or characterization. Really a great insight into what it was like back there just in the few paragraphs you've given us here cawimmer.

As someone's already commented, you really can see the fight in Siegfriend Lessey's eyes. I can't imagine being seperated for almost nine years (if I understood the timeline right) from my loved ones. Even more, I couldn't imagine the daunting task of putting my life back together after such circumstances.

At least the soup tasted good.

Thanks for posting this, cawimmer.

Waldo.Pepper
01-18-2008, 03:48 PM
My thanks as well. Kick (bad word) post.

MB_Avro_UK
01-18-2008, 04:38 PM
Hi Christian,

Many,many thamks for your post http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

This is a very unusual subject as regards the Jewish involvement in the Wehrmacht.

A complicated historical perspective which I will give some thought to!

Best post I agree for a long while.

Thanks again.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Pirschjaeger
01-18-2008, 05:30 PM
I have a friend whose uncle flew the last Ju52 flight out of Stalingrad. Soldiers killing each other to get on a freedom flight? This is what his uncle said too.

I know of another who survived Stalingrad and was set free in 56'. He said he had survived due to being a small man. He said the big guys dropped like flies.

Anyways, thanks for posting Christian.

Fritz

Von_Rat
01-19-2008, 02:18 AM
somtimes on these forums ive been rather harsh in my judgements of the germany of the past.

this thread reminds me of some of the horrors that most plain germans soldiers had to endure though no fault of their own.

thanks for posting.

Kurfurst__
01-19-2008, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:
Oh, before I forget! There was a mention in this book about a 100+ Luftwaffe fighter pilot ace who was of Jewish extraction. The name wasn't mentioned, but Rigg tells us that this pilot probably served in Johannes Steinhoff's squad since Steinhoff had personally spoken and complained to Goering about the Gestapo being very nosy about this particular pilot. Steinhoff had said that this guy is a loyal German and he was always afraid that after coming back from a mission and landing that the Gestapo would be waiting for him. Goering saw to it that the Gestapo "buggered off". It's interesting to note that Goering protected all the Jews in the Luftwaffe, despite having a hand in the Final Solution. Erhard Milch was even of Jewish extraction. Like I said, READ THIS BOOK! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Anyone know who this pilot might be? Those were all the facts given.

Ah, this must be referring the famous Göing line :

'Dear Heinrich, it is I who decide who`s Jewish in the Luftwaffe, and who`s not!'

I always kinda liked Göing, he was quite a character, and someone with a taste for life and even though he got a bad historic press, not least to Adolph Galland`s efforts, he wasn`t nearly the kind of ***hat he was portrayed as, though it`s true Milch did most of the job, Hermann only a kind of pater familias overwatching how his 'children' do his business in his late years.

Superb thread BTW! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

JZG_Thiem
01-19-2008, 08:10 AM
Kurfürst, with all due respect. Göing was not a *good guy* at all. He had better PR than the rest of the fray, nevertheless he was a die hard criminal.
He was the Inventor of the KZ. At least he opened the first ones in 1934. Being the prime minister of Prussia, he did everything, legal or not, to suppress any non-nazi movements. He used war as a means of personally taking advantage of. Namely stealing untold amounts of cultural goods from everywhere. The allies were quite surprised when they opened up his *stockpiles* of stolen things.
Being the head of the LW, he failed completely, not realizing that air war in WWII had to be fought differently than WWI where he participated as a pilot. I cant remember a single good decision of him, once he was needed (after 1941). Do you remember Udets last words? "Eiserner, Du hast mich verraten". That speaks for itself imo.
At the end, he even didnt have the balls (in Nürnberg) to stand up for what he did.

A miserable guy after all.

Von_Rat
01-19-2008, 12:54 PM
goring reminds me of some american gangsters.

he was a thug, but he could also be a extremly charming thug.

jadger
01-19-2008, 06:27 PM
That's so sad: He's a Hertha BSC Berlin fan http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif



thanks for posting that cawimmer, he was one of the lucky ones who returned home, didn't think any of them were left now.
coincidentally i'm just reading "blood red snow" (i forget the author), account of a heavy machine gunner who was around stalingrad and managed to escape the kessel. very interesting and pretty well written, i'd recommend it to anyone with an interest.

the book "blood red snow" is by Guenter K. Koschorrek, I own it, and it is a great read

it truly is sad and disgusting the German soldiers were kept up until the 1960s in Soviet prison Gulags, not being able to see their own children until they're 7 years old in this case.

sgt.dumpster
01-20-2008, 10:09 AM
it pisses me off how the ruskie ivans wrongly kept them for for so long after the war,many died for no reason at all was this deserved

FliegerAas
01-20-2008, 02:53 PM
[...]He was the Inventor of the KZ. At least he opened the first ones in 1934.
[...]

Not trying to defend Göing but neither did he invent the KZ nor did he build the first ones. The KZ was by the way not an invention of the Nazis. They "just" carried the idea to it's extremes.

joeap
01-20-2008, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by sgt.dumpster:
it pisses me off how the ruskie ivans wrongly kept them for for so long after the war,many died for no reason at all was this deserved
Maybe too long, but for the Russians the thought perhaps was to keep them to rebuild the country that they (albeit as obliged to in many cases) tried to destroy.

ruskka
01-20-2008, 07:02 PM
[/QUOTE]

the book "blood red snow" is by Guenter K. Koschorrek, I own it, and it is a great read

it truly is sad and disgusting the German soldiers were kept up until the 1960s in Soviet prison Gulags, not being able to see their own children until they're 7 years old in this case.[/QUOTE]

Sad and disgusting ??? you must be joking.

What is really sad and disgusting is that they were all part of the Third Reich, that is what is really disgusting, save your sadness for those untold millions of children who never had the chance of life, all children from all sides, never knew my cousins, wish they had the chance to live.

jadger
01-20-2008, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by ruskka:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

the book "blood red snow" is by Guenter K. Koschorrek, I own it, and it is a great read

it truly is sad and disgusting the German soldiers were kept up until the 1960s in Soviet prison Gulags, not being able to see their own children until they're 7 years old in this case.

Sad and disgusting ??? you must be joking.

What is really sad and disgusting is that they were all part of the Third Reich, that is what is really disgusting, save your sadness for those untold millions of children who never had the chance of life, all children from all sides, never knew my cousins, wish they had the chance to live. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two wrongs don't make a right. Millions of innocent people died on both sides of the war, that doesn't justify illegally imprisoning men for 15 years. So, you are saying because these men were German, they deserved to be imprisoned for up to 15 years? guilt by association.

So you are also then saying that every Russian citizen today is guilty of the rape and murder that the Red Army carried out in Eastern Europe, including the murder of over 2 million Germans and the forced expulsion of another 18 million.

Only 5,000 of the 91,000 German prisoners of war survived their captivity and returned home. Why cause more suffering when the war is already over? Guilt by association? because they were German, they deserved it: that is what you just said. WOW!!! I am speechless, how can someone be such a hatemongerer?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gifhttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Von_Rat
01-21-2008, 12:16 AM
So, you are saying because these men were German, they deserved to be imprisoned for up to 15 years? guilt by association.


cough,,, it was german soldiers who were imprisioned, not just any germans. it was german soldiers afterall who did the pillaging, etc, etc, in russia.


not saying it was right, but it was understandable.

if russia had demanded a "eye for a eye", i shudder to think what would of happened in eastern germany.

it could of been much, much, worse.

jadger
01-21-2008, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So, you are saying because these men were German, they deserved to be imprisoned for up to 15 years? guilt by association.


cough,,, it was german soldiers who were imprisioned, not just any germans. it was german soldiers afterall who did the pillaging, etc, etc, in russia.


not saying it was right, but it was understandable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Secret Order 7161 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_7161) instructed to intern all able-bodied Germans of ages 17-45(men) and 18-30(women) residing in the territories of Romania (69,332 persons), Yugoslavia (10,935 persons), Hungary (31,923 persons), Bulgaria (75 persons) and Czechoslovakia (215 persons) which were under the control of the Red Army.

also see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labor_of_Germans_in_the_Soviet_Union), that doesn't even include the people from Eastern Germany, notice that it is also women that were forced into virtual slavery.

more info here (http://www.journeyman.tv/?lid=18492)

Von_Rat
01-21-2008, 12:27 AM
was it implemented?

all ive heard about were german soldiers spending long years imprisioned.

jadger
01-21-2008, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
was it implemented?

all ive heard about were german soldiers spending long years imprisioned.

I added another link after you posted, I'll put it in this response here (http://www.journeyman.tv/?lid=18492), and yes, it was implemented.

Von_Rat
01-21-2008, 12:29 AM
even if it was. it wasnt any differant from german slave labour, eye for a eye.

Von_Rat
01-21-2008, 12:33 AM
anyway im not agruing it was right.

just understandable.

jadger
01-21-2008, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
even if it was. it wasnt any differant from german slave labour, eye for a eye.

What did German teenage girls do to deserve being raped and tortured? As you say, an eye for an eye, so according to you those teenage girls in my link must have done something bad then. The only thing they were guilty of was being German.

and this forced rape, torture, murder and slave labour wasn't only forced upon Germans, but every people that the Red Army came accross. Or do you forget that Stalin starved millions of his own people to death in the 1930s?

Von_Rat
01-21-2008, 12:40 AM
so are you going to dreg up every historical crime? or stick with the subject?


as far as teenage german girls, what about the teenage russian girls?

you say two wrongs dont make a right, and i agree.

but then i havent lost 20 million friends, neighbors, and countrymen to a invader, many of them murdered in cold blood. not to mention having my country laid to waste.

thats why i can understand the russian attitude.

if they really did do a eye for a eye, there would have been very few germans left in eastern germany.

jadger
01-21-2008, 12:51 AM
if they really did do a eye for a eye, there would have been very few germans left in eastern germany.

There weren't any Germans left in Eastern Germany, 15 million Germans were forced from their homeland, another 2 million were murdered, and the land was divided between Poland and the USSR after the war. MittelDeutschland became East Germany at the end of WWII.


thats why i can understand the russian attitude.

Then why did the Soviets murder 22,000 Polish POWs? AFAIK, the Poles didn't slaughter Russian civilians.

of course it is "understandable", but it is not inexcusable, you can't simply explain away the atrocities by saying that other atrocities happened in the same time period. The Germans did not force the soviets to enslave, rape and murder their people.

Von_Rat
01-21-2008, 12:52 AM
btw i like germans, im german american and if the dollar ever comes back vs the euro i plan to visit there.

just before christmas i attended a party at my sisters house in florida. a german friend of hers was visiting from germany along with her 90 year old mother, who still is very spry. anyway her mother didnt speak english, so everybody insisted i try to speak my horriable german to her. it was embarssing, but they actually liked it that at least someone at the party besides her daughter could speak to her.

i had a great time with these wonderful people. and they were very understanding of my extremly bad german.

Von_Rat
01-21-2008, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by jadger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">if they really did do a eye for a eye, there would have been very few germans left in eastern germany.

There weren't any Germans left in Eastern Germany, 15 million Germans were forced from their homeland, another 2 million were murdered, and the land was divided between Poland and the USSR after the war. MittelDeutschland became East Germany at the end of WWII.


thats why i can understand the russian attitude.

Then why did the Soviets murder 22,000 Polish POWs? AFAIK, the Poles didn't slaughter Russian civilians.

of course it is "understandable", but it is not inexcusable, you can't simply explain away the atrocities by saying that other atrocities happened in the same time period. The Germans did not force the soviets to enslave, rape and murder their people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i meant the russian zone. sorry for my mistake.


every crime you mentioned can be countered with a nazi crime from the same period.

example ,, why did the nazis slaughter jews, the jews never slaughtered germans. etc, etc.

all im saying that if your country destroys another, don't be suprised that, right or wrong, that country does the same to your country.

thats how the world works.
is it right, no. but thats how it happens.

if the nazis had invaded the usa and killed 20 million, i doubt if americans would of behaved much better than the russians. its just human nature.

jadger
01-21-2008, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
if the nazis had invaded the usa and killed 20 million, i doubt if americans would of behaved much better than the russians. its just human nature.

The Poles didn`t invade Russia (well, in this war) but they were murdered. The Ukrainians didn`t wholesale slaughter Soviets, but 7 million of them were starved to death by the Soviets.

you are basically arguing the whole chicken and the egg argument. One can easily see from the prewar propoganda and the Soviet past murders of their conquered Baltic neighbours that both sides would murder and kill each other, who did it first though... to me that doesn`t matter but to you it somehow implies retaliation, but the Soviets had been doing it to their own people long before the war.


every crime you mentioned can be countered with a nazi crime from the same period.

Non sequitur: Non sequitur is Latin for "it does not follow." In formal logic, an argument is a non sequitur if its conclusion does not follow from its premises. In a non sequitur, the conclusion can be either true or false, but the argument is a fallacy because the conclusion does not follow from the premise

Ignoratio elenchi: Ignoratio elenchi is the formal fallacy of presenting an argument that may in itself be valid, but doesn't address the issue in question. "Ignoratio elenchi" can be roughly translated by ignorance of refutation, that is, ignorance of what a refutation is.

Similar to ignoratio elenchi, a red herring is an argument, given in reply, that does not address the original issue. Critically, a red herring is a deliberate attempt to change the subject or divert the argument.

WN_Barbarossa
01-21-2008, 01:54 AM
sorry for interrupting, but back to Göing for a second

He wasn't a brilliant military leader but he was certainly a unique figure of the Reich with some really good quotes.

"After the United States gobbled up California and half of Mexico, and we were stripped down to nothing, territorial expansion suddenly becomes a crime. It's been going on for centuries, and it will still go on."

"...voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."


http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Hermann_G%C3%B6ring

As for POWs in russian captivity - the russian general who took Budapest (I can't remember his name)had reported 50.000 german POWs to Stalin before he captured the city, but he managed to capture only a handful of germans.It wasn't a bright idea to disappoint Stalin, so he rounded up tens of thousands of civvies (even celebrating jewish people) and sent them to Siberia.

flyingloon
01-21-2008, 01:56 AM
we go from an interesting post about a first hand account of the front line, to the war crimes perpetrated by both sides in just 2 pages. got to be a new record that. it's shame as well, because this is old ground that has been trodden so many times, with so many locked threads and so many circular arguements.

cawimmer, yeah goering seems a fascinating character - first world war ace and fighter leader, obviously accomplished tactician and capable. but then also incredibly prone to indulging himself, often at his second wife's encouragement, and hopelessly addicted to painkillers. got to wonder how things would have turned out had his first wife karin not died, and had remained to poke him with a stick as proper motivation.

the one that always gets me thinking though is general wever (i think it was him anyway) the main exponent of a german strategic bomber. died in an air accident shortly before a dornier prototype (the "ural bomber") took to the air, and then the project was cancelled when his replacement took over and had more of a taste for tactical bombing. add to this that goering remarked hitler never asked him what type of aircraft, just how many, and it makes you wonder - if he hadn't died, the luftwaffe would have had the means to bomb the russian factories moved far into the russian rear...

Von_Rat
01-21-2008, 01:57 AM
you can use any debating tactics you want.

that doesnt change my point.

if your country destroys another, don't be suprised that, right or wrong, that country does the same to your country.

thats how the world works.
is it right, no. but thats how it happens.

who did what 1st to whom, doesnt matter. if you get people mad enough they want revenge. even if they themselves have already done horriable things to other people without justfication.

thats why i find your dreging up other crimes irrevelant.

i thought i made that clear by my bringing up the other nazis crimes that are also irrelavent, i guess not.

did the ussr do horriable things besides what they did in germany, yes. are they relavent, no.


you seem to expect that people should turn the other cheek.


as far as americans go. i just read a passage in a very good book that stated that unless a german soldier who was surrendering, was part of a mass surrender, he had only a 50 percent chance of not be killed outright.

i guess the americans were mad at the germans to.

Von_Rat
01-21-2008, 02:19 AM
cawimmer430 my apolgies for diverting your thread. i'll stop now.

that book you mentioned looks very interesting. if its in english also i'll be sure to get it.

cawimmer430
01-21-2008, 04:59 AM
Hi guys,

Anytime! If I have more interesting scans I will definitely scan them and post them here. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Don't worry about the thread hijacking. Always fun to read other points of view. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

flyingloon
01-21-2008, 05:12 AM
as far as americans go. i just read a passage in a very good book that stated that unless a german soldier who was surrendering, was part of a mass surrender, he had only a 50 percent chance of not be killed outright.

i guess the americans were mad at the germans to.

yeah there was a similar passage in the blood red snow book - the author talks about one member of his unit that would go about the bodies in front of their lines after an engagement and shoot each russian body in the head, to "make sure", and the author expresses distaste at shooting unarmed men. later on he gives an account of a well liked officer who, after giving aid to a wounded russian soldier, is shot in the neck by the man he has just bandaged. all sides undoubtedly did this, and when surrendering your survival depended entirely upon the man you were surrendering to, his disposition, what he had just experienced and how many of his friends had just been killed.

tools4foolsA
01-21-2008, 08:47 AM
A very interesting book with first hand accounts from Stalingrad is called 'Im Kessel', in German language. Carl Schuddekopf is the author (with the little dots on the 'o'...).

Do not read before bedtime...
++++

luftluuver
01-21-2008, 09:27 AM
An interesting show on the HC last night. The German veterans said it was so cold the firing pin would break on their rifle, the MG42 wouldn't fire and shells would shatter on the armor of Soviet tanks.

rnzoli
01-21-2008, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by flyingloon:
later on he gives an account of a well liked officer who, after giving aid to a wounded russian soldier, is shot in the neck by the man he has just bandaged Interesting, I also read a similar recollection from a tank commander, wounded russians asking for help after their failed attack, his friend tries to help, gets shot in the chest by one of them, they retaliate by driving over the remaining ones in their tansk. He said in his interview "war converted all of us to beasts, it is hard to imagine".

Another problem with surrenders is that you could have been shot also on the way to the POW camps. A veteran wrote that during the march to the Russian camp near the river Don, in freezing conditions, in deep snow, was claming a lot of POW lives. The Russian guards didn't have any vehicles either, so if someone stayed behind and couldn't keep pace, was shot by a guard walking 50 m behind the column. Nothing really illustrates the ambiguity of the situation than the same guard, who indifferently shot a POW not being able to continue the march, took the bread-reserves from the dead man, gave it to another POW and ordered the other POW to take on the better boots of the dead POW.

The separation of POWs able to march or not were always a source of disconcern. In some cases, the guards simply shot those unable to walk to the camp. In other cases, the guards took them to hospitals. Becoming a POW was a huge risk, a very big one.

Bewolf
01-21-2008, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Von_Rat:
you can use any debating tactics you want.

that doesnt change my point.

if your country destroys another, don't be suprised that, right or wrong, that country does the same to your country.

thats how the world works.
is it right, no. but thats how it happens.

who did what 1st to whom, doesnt matter. if you get people mad enough they want revenge. even if they themselves have already done horriable things to other people without justfication.

thats why i find your dreging up other crimes irrevelant.

i thought i made that clear by my bringing up the other nazis crimes that are also irrelavent, i guess not.

did the ussr do horriable things besides what they did in germany, yes. are they relavent, no.


you seem to expect that people should turn the other cheek.


as far as americans go. i just read a passage in a very good book that stated that unless a german soldier who was surrendering, was part of a mass surrender, he had only a 50 percent chance of not be killed outright.

i guess the americans were mad at the germans to.

Though I see where you are coming from, I still have to disagree. Indeed does one crime not justify another. If you do, you just provoke "more" crimes, as justification from the ones before by either side. It simply does not work that way. Btw, going by your justification of the holding of prisoners up to 15 years, by that exammple also north vietnam hold of american POWS years later was O.K.

I have a clear understanding for the russians. Would I have been a russian in 1945 marching into the country that invaded my homeland and was directly or indirectly responsible for the death of my relatives and millions of my countrymen, I most probably would seek personal revenge, too.

But, that is also true for murder cases in law. And still no court or juristication would allow any citizen go out on a revenge rampage. And you can argue however you want, no german civiilian that did not participate in the war or its organisation deserved such a fate by the russian coommon grunt. Especially the ten thousands of raped women and girls.

What you do is putting a "people" against a "people". You completly take out individual responsebility here. I won't go into the rats tail of problems coming with this.

JZG_Thiem
01-21-2008, 12:05 PM
I could understand if hundrets, or thousands or whatever number of russian soldiers wanted to take personal revenge for whatever was done to their family, friends, village or country. Thats very understandable imo. Having feelings and emotions is a major part of being human.
The problems i have are with all this being organized and 100% being agreed on by the soviet officer corps up to the very highest ranks. At this very point where it got organized, or organized by *let them all do this, do NOTHING against it*, maybe even encourage it (by showing it will have no consequence)....at this point they made themselves just as guilty as all the german officers who did the same, yet in another way.
IIRC similar *strategies* of raping every female you can get hold of have been used in the Balcan war in the 90s. The goal being *ethnic cleansing*. I see a similar pattern to what was done by the red army.
My point being: if it all gets organized and *common sense* - and the superiors DO decide whats common sense - then its not justifiable. Its the JOB of any superior (officer in the army, boss in company, parent in family) to put *cheap* feelings aside and make rational decisions. If the officers make the rational decisions to *let things happen* or to encourage them, then they failed and acted like criminals, no matter what nationality.

jadger
01-21-2008, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
you can use any debating tactics you want.

that doesnt change my point.

if your country destroys another, don't be suprised that, right or wrong, that country does the same to your country.

thats how the world works.
is it right, no. but thats how it happens.

who did what 1st to whom, doesnt matter. if you get people mad enough they want revenge. even if they themselves have already done horriable things to other people without justfication.

thats why i find your dreging up other crimes irrevelant.

i thought i made that clear by my bringing up the other nazis crimes that are also irrelavent, i guess not.

did the ussr do horriable things besides what they did in germany, yes. are they relavent, no.


you seem to expect that people should turn the other cheek.


as far as americans go. i just read a passage in a very good book that stated that unless a german soldier who was surrendering, was part of a mass surrender, he had only a 50 percent chance of not be killed outright.

i guess the americans were mad at the germans to.

Though I see where you are coming from, I still have to disagree. Indeed does one crime not justify another. If you do, you just provoke "more" crimes, as justification from the ones before by either side. It simply does not work that way. Btw, going by your justification of the holding of prisoners up to 15 years, by that exammple also north vietnam hold of american POWS years later was O.K.

I have a clear understanding for the russians. Would I have been a russian in 1945 marching into the country that invaded my homeland and was directly or indirectly responsible for the death of my relatives and millions of my countrymen, I most probably would seek personal revenge, too.

But, that is also true for murder cases in law. And still no court or juristication would allow any citizen go out on a revenge rampage. And you can argue however you want, no german civiilian that did not participate in the war or its organisation deserved such a fate by the russian coommon grunt. Especially the ten thousands of raped women and girls.

What you do is putting a "people" against a "people". You completly take out individual responsebility here. I won't go into the rats tail of problems coming with this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Bewolf, you said exactly what I wanted to, only more eloquently.

one must also mention that in a good army this sort of behaviour is banned and punished, by courts-martial (yes, that is the proper plural form) and the law. How this was different is that this was perpetrated not just by the common grunt, but by the officers as well and the order came directly from Stalin himself.

joeap
01-21-2008, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by jadger:
Thanks Bewolf, you said exactly what I wanted to, only more eloquently.

one must also mention that in a good army this sort of behaviour is banned and punished, by courts-martial (yes, that is the proper plural form) and the law. How this was different is that this was perpetrated not just by the common grunt, but by the officers as well and the order came directly from Stalin himself.

Gotta say I also think Beowulf made some great points, well said.

I do have a question for you though jadger, do you have a source for the claim Stalin ordered this himself?

jadger
01-21-2008, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jadger:
Thanks Bewolf, you said exactly what I wanted to, only more eloquently.

one must also mention that in a good army this sort of behaviour is banned and punished, by courts-martial (yes, that is the proper plural form) and the law. How this was different is that this was perpetrated not just by the common grunt, but by the officers as well and the order came directly from Stalin himself.

Gotta say I also think Beowulf made some great points, well said.

I do have a question for you though jadger, do you have a source for the claim Stalin ordered this himself? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's on the 2nd page of this thread, but I will post one of them again, here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_7161). There are two other links I gave, of course just do a simple google search if need be, finds lots more information.

joeap
01-21-2008, 02:11 PM
Thanks, will read and think about them.