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View Full Version : They have to fix the neutral ship problems.



jshandorf1972
07-01-2005, 11:16 AM
By the 1930 Submarine Protocol which Germany signed in 1936 specified that

"with certain exceptions, ships were not to be sunk without warning. They were to be stopped and inspected, or 'visited and searched.' If found to be an enemy ship or a neutral ship with contraband, inbound to an Allied port, they could be sunk, but only after the safety of the crew had been absolutely assured.

The exceptions -- ships that could be sunk without warning, in the German view-- were:
- Troopships, i.e., vessels known from intelligence sources or actually observed to be carrying troops and war material.
- Vessels in convoy, or any vessel excorted by warships or aircraft.
- Vessels taking part in enemy actions or acting in direct support of enemy operations, including part in enemy actions opr acting in direct support of enemy operations, including intelligence gathering.

Right now the game does not reflect this reality at all. Now modeling the stopping and searching single merchants sailing alone I don't expect to see, but the fact that during the war ANY neutral convoying or being protected by enemy ships was FAIR GAME. You should not be penalized for sinking neutral shipping under these conditions.

Some more historical facts:

At the start of the war on September 3, 1939 the stanidng order from Hitler was:


Believing that France might be even more easily dissuaded from war then Great Britain, Hitler had reached the drastic decision that U-boats should not attack any French ships of any kind. At 1752 (September 3, 1939) that same afternoon, the Berlin naval staff addressed that matter with yet another message: 'Boats are to take no hostile actions against [French] merchant ships for the present, except in self-defense'"

Then on September 4th, 1939 things got even more complicated after Lemp sank the British passenger liner Athenia.OKM radioed Atlantic forces, including the "pocket" battlships and all U-boats with the follwoing message:
By order of the Fuhrer: No hostile action is to be taken for the present against passenger ships, even in convoy."

Atleast by the invasion of France in May 0f 1940 the restriction was lifted on French shipping, though I think it was lifter sooner but the date escapes me.

Anyway, while I don't assume that all these conditions should be simulated in SHIII, I do expect that fact that ANY merchnat ship convoying under enemy escort can be sunk without penalty.

musketeer_kfh
07-01-2005, 11:25 AM
I personally always hate letting a couple fat C3s slip away when they are smack in the middle of a British convoy, on the way to Liverpool and east of Ireland! The sight of planes with British markings on their wings sitting on the C3s' decks only adds to the frustration!

W.Irving
07-01-2005, 02:11 PM
These conditions should be modelled in the game! If your radio is functioning, you should receive new orders from BdU redefining the rules of engagement.
If your radio is out of order.. well, tough! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S VIIC_41
07-01-2005, 02:36 PM
Yeah and right now I'm saved under a convoy with some C2s, a C3, a T3 and a T2 or so and the **** T3 is AMERICAN! >_<

In 1941! A month or 2 later and the Japanese would've attacked and I could get me a T3... oh well... I got a Brit T2, but a C2 won't go down... I put 2 torps in it and its REAL listed astern but the engines are still running fine... grr. No deck gun ammo left either. It's a storm too... as usual.

aaronblood
07-01-2005, 02:55 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I guess I should be apalled that the UbiSoft crew didn't read every historical mandate issued by Hitler before releasing the game.

People are always quibbling about little insignificant inaccuracies... ("Hey the Greeks didn't join the war yet!") while at the same time sailing around oblivious in a mercator projection of the ocean that is wildly skewed (for sure near the poles) yet no one seems to be too concerned over that.

I'm sure there's a modder out there who will let you sink the ships.

For such a great game, I can allow some slack. I still remember how amazed I was the first time my XO repeated orders back to me... "He's talking to me! Hey, come here you gotta see this! Watch this guy talk to me."

Amazing what they HAVE managed to achieve here.

ivantanterrible
07-02-2005, 02:00 AM
yes, I agree. We should not simply put a blind shot on neutral ships..especially passenger liner. I feel guilty seeing a passenger line with 200 innocent people onboard. Well, if the protocal is true, SH3 should have a search party to board the ship and ransack them instead of sinking them! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

imagine, if we ransack one of those passenger liner, the boat definitely filled with food, drinks (couple of whisky?), money, gold etc...whouldn't it be great the whole crew share the treasure???

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

maxpower2
07-02-2005, 02:15 AM
if they are in the war zone sink em.

Kaiser_W
07-02-2005, 03:02 AM
Originally posted by maxpower2:
if they are in the war zone sink em.


That's the way I see it. A so called neutral ship sailing with english ships and carrying war goods is fair game. If I come a neutral freighter sailing on its own or with another neutral ship, I let it go. Why inpect when there's a Sherman tank parked on the deck?? It apins me though to let a liner slip through. They usually eat up my torpedos anyway and I have nothing left to toss at the other ships.

Point is, they know there's a war going on, so stay the hell out of it.

Olebass
07-02-2005, 03:12 AM
You can adjust the penalty of this in the config folder by going to sh3 directory, data then config and open basic.cfg file.
Under reknown about 10 lines down change it from -1 to something positive. I have not tried 0( no value) but I use 1 and adjusted allied ships to 2 or double.

I kept axis -10 for that would be a no no!

I agree sinking neutral ships, especially ones in convoy carrying planes, tanks and trucks! are obviously not neutral.

W.Irving
07-02-2005, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by ivantanterrible:
imagine, if we ransack one of those passenger liner, the boat definitely filled with food, drinks (couple of whisky?), money, gold etc...whouldn't it be great the whole crew share the treasure???

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif


Er, yeah. And how long d'ya reckon that'll take, Herr Kaleun? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

jshandorf1972
07-02-2005, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by aaronblood:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I guess I should be apalled that the UbiSoft crew didn't read every historical mandate issued by Hitler before releasing the game.

People are always quibbling about little insignificant inaccuracies... ("Hey the Greeks didn't join the war yet!") while at the same time sailing around oblivious in a mercator projection of the ocean that is wildly skewed (for sure near the poles) yet no one seems to be too concerned over that.

I'm sure there's a modder out there who will let you sink the ships.

For such a great game, I can allow some slack. I still remember how amazed I was the first time my XO repeated orders back to me... "He's talking to me! Hey, come here you gotta see this! Watch this guy talk to me."

Amazing what they HAVE managed to achieve here.

Gee, expecting someone on the design team to actually READ a book on the U-boat war is too much to ask?

I got this information from one book, and IMO, the definitive book on the U-boat war: "Hitler's U-Boat War by Clive Blair". Check it out.

Bubblehead1948
07-02-2005, 06:00 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif By the 1930 Submarine Protocol which Germany signed in 1936 specified that

"with certain exceptions, ships were not to be sunk without warning. They were to be stopped and inspected, or 'visited and searched.' If found to be an enemy ship or a neutral ship with contraband, inbound to an Allied port, they could be sunk, but only after the safety of the crew had been absolutely assured.
-----------------------------------------------

Yeah?, well, ya know... I think Iran signed a
nuclear non-proliferation treaty too, but I don't see any similar agony going on over those refinement facilities they got working day and night. Just an analogy.

Look... by 1940, any ship waltzing around with
cargo anywhere near the British coast is going to take a water nap. I'm ok if others want to
pontificate over linen, tea, and treaties, but the name on this box wasn't "diplomacy."

jshandorf1972
07-02-2005, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Bubblehead1948:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif By the 1930 Submarine Protocol which Germany signed in 1936 specified that

"with certain exceptions, ships were not to be sunk without warning. They were to be stopped and inspected, or 'visited and searched.' If found to be an enemy ship or a neutral ship with contraband, inbound to an Allied port, they could be sunk, but only after the safety of the crew had been absolutely assured.
-----------------------------------------------

Yeah?, well, ya know... I think Iran signed a
nuclear non-proliferation treaty too, but I don't see any similar agony going on over those refinement facilities they got working day and night. Just an analogy.

Look... by 1940, any ship waltzing around with
cargo anywhere near the British coast is going to take a water nap. I'm ok if others want to
pontificate over linen, tea, and treaties, but the name on this box wasn't "diplomacy."

Yeah, well, if you would actually use some reading comprehension, I pointed out that if you sink Neutral merchants that are convoying you get penalized. This shouldn't be the case.

Bubblehead1948
07-02-2005, 10:38 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif Trust me, I read every word.

My position is: sink 'em if you need to hone your skills. Leave 'em alone if you find yourself concerned about points. This issue
is no#86 on the Devs top 40.