PDA

View Full Version : G2 vs F4



Aymar_Mauri
03-28-2006, 03:55 AM
http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/2754/g2vsf46qr.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The G2 had the DB605, a much heavier engine (bigger displacement) vs the DB601 of the F4. It also had, due to the added weight, a stronger (and heavier) airframe (6500lbs=2955Kg):

http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/729/gseries9lu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

G1(pressurized G2) vs G6 (Empty / Loaded weight in Kg):
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/7112/g1vsg67uj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
(G1 > 3150Kg=6930lbs; G6 > 3200Kg=7040lbs)

F4 (2955kg Loaded weight):
http://img469.imageshack.us/img469/7555/f40ue.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

But in-game the G2 has less weight than the F4?!!

mynameisroland
03-28-2006, 05:01 AM
Ive read a great book called Black 6 about the restoration of a BF 109 G1 by the RAF. The test pilot who had flown Spitfire IX's and other WW2 piston engined types said that the Bf 109 G1 actually had superior performance at altitude and was a pilots aircraft.

I have also read in some obscure sources that the F4 was 398 mph plus at high altitude. Altogether a much better performer than it is generally given credit for.

Yak 3
Gross weight 2,692 kg (5,864 lb)
Power Klimov VK-105PF-2 V-12 liquid-cooled piston engine, 962 kW (1,290 hp)


Bf 109 F4
Gross weight 2,900 kg (6396 lb)
Power 1,350 hp (1005 kW) DB601E

Lazy312
03-28-2006, 05:40 AM
G2 seems to be lighter than even F2 according to IL-2 Compare..

JG52Karaya-X
03-28-2006, 05:44 AM
And there goes the first IL2C vs IL2FB whine http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Once again for the deaf, the ignorant, etc...

IL2C is NOT official and DOES NOT give 100% correct data in respect to ingame AND real life specs - it's a tool intended to compare 2 planes and their raw performance figures.

Nothing more nothing less...

PS: t/o weights for (not all but) most planes are more or less off

JG52Karaya-X
03-28-2006, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
I have also read in some obscure sources that the F4 was 398 mph plus at high altitude. Altogether a much better performer than it is generally given credit for.


"Black6" was actually a Bf109G2/trop - a G1 would be a pressurized G2 with additional GM1 injection for high alt use

About the F4 - depends on the manifold. In 1941 the DB601E was cleared for 1,3ata usage which resulted in a topspeed of ~635km/h at rated altitude. In early 1942 the usage of 1,42ata for the DB601E was cleared giving it a full 1350PS and a topspeed of around 650km/h.

mynameisroland
03-28-2006, 05:52 AM
Was Black 6 not a hotch potch of 2 or more different 109's? It had Wiener Neustadt chassis plates or something like that from a F series iirc

Lazy312
03-28-2006, 07:39 AM
And there goes the first IL2C vs IL2FB whine Roll Eyes

Once again for the deaf, the ignorant, etc...

IL2C is NOT official and DOES NOT give 100% correct data in respect to ingame AND real life specs - it's a tool intended to compare 2 planes and their raw performance figures.

Nothing more nothing less...

PS: t/o weights for (not all but) most planes are more or less off
I agree we should not use IL2 Compare for presenting planes' performace. However I already asked Oleg to check G2 weight before this IL2 Compare was released. There are quite a few reasons to beleive G2 has wrong weight - 350kg difference is no small issue - laggs had exactly the same problem.

JG53Frankyboy
03-28-2006, 08:07 AM
these given weights in compare are most propably "default armament + 100%fuel".

keep in mind that the ingame Bf109F4 has 540litres internal fuel (endurance for 84min with 100% power) and the Bg109G2 has 400litres (endurance for 54minutes at 100% power).

these 140litres are historical incorrect !
lets have 0,7kg for one litre fuel here , its a weight of 98kg to much.
count that in the compare given weight 2821-98=2723 , less wieght than the ingame G2.
so, fly the F4 always with 75% fuel http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JG52Karaya-X
03-28-2006, 09:12 AM
Franky, ich glaub das wurde bereits gefixt - habs mir im QMB mal angesehen und der Tank zeigt jetzt bei 50%fuel wirklich 50% an http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JG52Karaya-X
03-28-2006, 09:33 AM
Just checked again, yes fuel has been fixed on the Bf109F!

I second the thought of checking weigth on the Bf109G2 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

JG53Frankyboy
03-28-2006, 09:59 AM
hell, yes, WOW ! wonders are still happen - all this small , nevermentioned fixes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif THX to the maddox team !

the Bf109F have now 400 litres max internal fuel and an endurance of ~64min at 100% power.
GREAT !!

now it have to be tested if a F4 can outurn a G2 - just because , every compare entrie should have be tested before an "official" rant http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Xiolablu3
03-28-2006, 11:23 AM
The 109F4 is a beautiful plane to fight Spitfire 5's in, I like the 109G2 and 109F4.

The 109G2 'feels' a little better to me.

LilHorse
03-28-2006, 11:45 AM
I've always felt the in-game G2 performs more like the F4 should and vice versa. At least where sustained turn is concerned. It was always said by those pilots who flew both that the F4 was the best dogfighter of the 109 series and that all subsequent models (though good in their own right)were not as good at DFing.

faustnik
03-28-2006, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by LilHorse:
I've always felt the in-game G2 performs more like the F4 should and vice versa. At least where sustained turn is concerned. It was always said by those pilots who flew both that the F4 was the best dogfighter of the 109 series and that all subsequent models (though good in their own right)were not as good at DFing.

The Soviets had a very high opinion of the G2, so did the Finns. I'll look for those Soviet quotes when I can get at my books.

gthgrrl4game
03-28-2006, 12:51 PM
These are my two fav Luftwaffe fighters.
I like the F2 as well despite the light armament. It does nothave that annoying extra cross bar in the windscreen.
I usually fly Zero-sen or Hayabusa but have learned to love the Franz and Gustav. Smooth and accurate gun platforms!!!

Max.Power
03-29-2006, 02:45 AM
Where did you get that version of il2 compare?

JG53Frankyboy
03-29-2006, 02:52 AM
in version 3 the wieght is without ammo , so you should download the new 301 to check the weights again...

nevertheless the F4 and G2 have the same ammoweight http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Aymar_Mauri
03-29-2006, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by Max.Power:
Where did you get that version of il2 compare?
The author has posted the link somewhere here in this forum.

Try this link: http://rapidshare.de/files/16540192/il2c_v3.exe.html


Originally posted by Max.Power:
n version 3 the wieght is without ammo , so you should download the new 301 to check the weights again...

nevertheless the F4 and G2 have the same ammoweight
They have the exact same weapons and ammo.

Max.Power
03-30-2006, 03:14 AM
Thanks for the link!

Aymar_Mauri
03-30-2006, 05:19 PM
Well, version 3.01 and still the G2 weights less than the F4, when in RL it was the other way around...

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/2051/f4vsg20vu.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

VW-IceFire
03-30-2006, 05:27 PM
The G-2 has long been considered the uber early war 109. Nobody could figure out why the G-2 was so much nicer in handling than the F-4 which everyone had read was the other way around.

Maybe this explains it? 300kg was missing on the LaGG...perhaps some of the weight was missing here too? Who knows...

Weren't the F-2 and F-4 added much later on. The G-2 was one of the first in the game right?

HayateAce
03-30-2006, 05:38 PM
Yes weight is missing from G2. Oleg has tuned this ufo specifically for gennadich dogfight servers.

Be sure.


To everything (turn, turn, turn)
There is a season (turn, turn, turn)
And a time for every purpose, under heaven...


http://www.hakushouse.com/images/RnR/P3260022.JPG

Brain32
03-30-2006, 05:38 PM
I remember flying Franz in orig IL2, but maybe I'm mistaken...
As for the planes, F4 DOES feel better to me, G2 only climbs better.
BTW we know that we shouldn't use il2c for accurate comparision http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Xiolablu3
03-30-2006, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by LilHorse:
I've always felt the in-game G2 performs more like the F4 should and vice versa. At least where sustained turn is concerned. It was always said by those pilots who flew both that the F4 was the best dogfighter of the 109 series and that all subsequent models (though good in their own right)were not as good at DFing.

Maybe these pilots went straight from the 109F to the 109G6 tho, who is to say? The G6 is an overloaded heavy plane in Il2/FB as well as realife (according to these 'overloaded 109G pilot accounts anyway)

What I am trying ot say is that we sometimes here 'The 109G was overloaded compared to the 109F' but we never find out which 109G they are talking about.

The 109G2 seems much more of a 'pure fighter' 109 compared to the 109G6, with its retractable tail wheel etc.

WTE_Galway
03-30-2006, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:

"Black6" was actually a Bf109G2/trop - a G1 would be a pressurized G2 with additional GM1 injection for high alt use


I may be naive here but it seems it would take very little programming/modelling to give us a trop variant of the G2 and maybe a G1 as well

alert_1
03-31-2006, 04:06 AM
I doubt that weight is "missing" form Me109G2, more likely Me109G6 is little too fat...

JG52Karaya-X
03-31-2006, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
I may be naive here but it seems it would take very little programming/modelling to give us a trop variant of the G2 and maybe a G1 as well

Well the G2/trop (and every other german /trop plane) would definitely need a slightly altered 3D model (longer supercharger inlet with sandfilter) and a new FM (slight speed drop).

The G1 would need a completely new FM because it is ~250kg heavier - honestly I don't see a sense in that version as it is only useful at extreme altitudes.

I also dont see a sense in our current E7/Z version with GM1 boost - I'd rather have an E7/N which was very widespread and DOES make sense both for North Africa and early Russian scenarios

JG52Karaya-X
03-31-2006, 04:34 AM
Originally posted by alert_1:
I doubt that weight is "missing" form Me109G2, more likely Me109G6 is little too fat...

I think both statements are true - the G2 and G6 should meet somewhere in the middle. Problem is that we seem to have the 1,42ata G2 which definitely is not a 1942 bird - more a mid or late 1943 plane!
On the other hand both G6 have 1,3ata or judging from IL2C even worse than that!

Speeds for 1,3ata - real life data (@7000m)
G2: 650km/h
G6early: 635km/h
G6late: 640km/h

Speeds from IL2 (@7000m)
G2: 665km/h (that's certainly 1,42ata)
G6early: 625km/h
G6late: 630km/h

So the G2 is too fast, the G6 too slow! And if the weights from IL2C are correct the G2 is FAR too light whereas the G6 is by ~25kg too heavy.

Kurfurst__
03-31-2006, 04:58 AM
The G-2 is in fact spot on regarding performance, even though the weight, provided

BTW, the dataset in the first post is incorrect. As per the original Messerscmitt/RLM documentation, the take off weight was 2890 kg on the F-4, and 3037 kg for the G-1 (not 3150). The G-6 was weighting 3150 kg, this including trop equipment.

And, in Soviet trials performed with the F-4 and G-2 (as G-1 but no pressurization), revealed 19,5-20 secs sustained turn time for the F-4, and 20-20,5 secs for the G-2. Both planes match these real life data extremely well in game. Both trials appearantly at 1,3ata, and at 1000m altitude. In Soviet trials the G2 achieved 666 kph at 7000m with 1,3ata.

One thing to keep in mind, that given the 635ish max speed of the F-4 (at full 1,42ata notleistung rechlin measured 670 kph), and the 660ish speed of the G-2, both runs at an ealry 1,3ata boost instead of full power. At 1,3ata, the F4s 601e develops only 1200 PS, whereas the 605a develops 1310 ps at sea level.

So, no mystery expect the f4 is a bit underperforming. A thing to keep in mind that the g2 has about 10% more power available, and more at altitude, this should effect handily the SUSTAINED turn times, since basically those refer to when the airspeed is constant in turn, in other words, the thrust (which is more with the g2s more power engine) equals power requirements.

Think about later spitfires with more power matching the lighter earlier variants in sustained turns, or even outdoing them at altitude where the power difference is even greater in favour of the later models.. and there were a lot more weight difference between the later spitfire models than the mere 140 kg between the F-4 and G-2..

raisen
03-31-2006, 08:06 AM
Just a quicky about Black 6, which was mentioned a few posts earlier.

If I remember the book (purchased in Barcelona at a fabulous Sunday book market last year), I think that it was a patched up with all manner of bits during its life as a static display aircraft.

There also appears to be evidence that Black 6 was built at the factory using some 109F major components in order simply to get them out of the factory, rather than waste those components. Apparently this was not an unknown practice. I'll check but one of those components may have been a late F model fuselage on Black 6.

The guy that restored it went to great lengths to restore it to the specific B109 G2 Trop spec it was captured in (minus guns etc, but plus modern radios of course), but got a surprise as to the origin of some major bits of structure once the paint was removed.

Raisen

JG4_Helofly
03-31-2006, 08:52 AM
At the begining of fb I remember that the bf 109 f2 was the best turn fighter. I don't know in which patch Oleg change it but it was not always like that.

CruiseTorpedo
03-31-2006, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Weren't the F-2 and F-4 added much later on. The G-2 was one of the first in the game right?

Original IL2 came with the 109F2, the F4 was added later on to give the german flyers a 1941 fighter with 20mm cannon.

Badsight.
03-31-2006, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
The G-2 has long been considered the uber early war 109. Nobody could figure out why the G-2 was so much nicer in handling than the F-4 which everyone had read was the other way around.

Maybe this explains it? 300kg was missing on the LaGG...perhaps some of the weight was missing here too? Who knows...? tests shos the Emils & Frederichs are stalling at too high a speed

fix the stall rates & you will have correct results (probably) that the G models show

fix the way slats work in this game & you will probably fix the HayateTard type whining as well