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fordfan25
06-05-2005, 04:24 PM
ican some one explain this to me. its happend more than once i just never have bothered to ask. this is just 1 example.

i was in 334th in a corsair. the enemy piolet was in a 109. now he started off on my 6 comeing in at a higher speed. we started a turn fight. now im not talking a snap shot we were in a sustained turn. now keep in mind he was gaining on me. he was able to rapidly turn into me at a even higher speed than i was going yet even though my piolet was blacking out to the point i could not see my gun sight he was able to turn into me and still be able to see well enough to make a perfect shot?

i hope i explained that well enough. is there a deffernt rate off black out depending on wich plane your in?

HayateAce
06-05-2005, 04:36 PM
Blackout is lessened for 109 in the name of G A M E P L A Y .

The following posts will be of 109 fanbois who desparately want to keep the Bogus Fantasy advantages they have squeeled so loudly to obtain.

Don't you know, all blue players is Red Barons.

http://www.acespilotshop.com/images/products/gifts/pedal-planes-red-baron.jpg

SeaFireLIV
06-05-2005, 04:49 PM
Thankyou for that pearl of wisdom, HayateAce.

It`s actually a lot more copmplex than that. In a nutshell the guy making the turn in front of you isn`t having to make quite as hard a G-turn (?) manouever as you`re having to to compenstae and catch up to him. I could probably explain it better with a diagram, but it`s late and I`m tired.

I`m sure some who can explain the aerodynamics better than I will soon explain it better.

SeaFireLIV
06-05-2005, 04:58 PM
**** site won`t let me correct my earlier post! oh well. Think I`ll go sleep now. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Badsight.
06-05-2005, 05:01 PM
Hayate_Noob once again shows his in-depth knowledge of "why things happen the way they do in FB"

as in he dont have any

OD_79
06-05-2005, 05:05 PM
Yeah there is an advantage in the 09 in that they had a reclined seat which made G-forces more tolerable for a bit longer before they blacked out.

OD.

Badsight.
06-05-2005, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by fordfan25:
i hope i explained that well enough. is there a deffernt rate off black out depending on wich plane your in? simple answer = no

but

planes generate G differently due to ease or lack of turning ability

Bf109s dont turn good at all at high speed , trimmed they can but then they generate blackout more eaisly too , Mustangs on the other hand generate G very eaisly , especially at high speeds where they have great elevator authority

(& Hayate_Noob wants that changed for "gameplay" , pffft)

G & Blackout are the same for all planes , but planes in FB generate G & thus blackout differently

fordfan25
06-05-2005, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fordfan25:
i hope i explained that well enough. is there a deffernt rate off black out depending on wich plane your in? simple answer = no

but

planes generate G differently due to ease or lack of turning ability

Bf109s dont turn good at all at high speed , trimmed they can butthen they generate blackout more eaisly too

G & Blackout are the same for all planes , but planes in FB generate G & thus blackout differently </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yea but the fact that he was going faster as well as turning into me makes me wounder. we made about 3 loops i think.

fordfan25
06-05-2005, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by OD_79:
Yeah there is an advantage in the 09 in that they had a reclined seat which made G-forces more tolerable for a bit longer before they blacked out.

OD.


wounder if the US flyers will ever get G suits.

Badsight.
06-05-2005, 05:10 PM
if he stayed with you for 3 loops he couldnt have been going faster or he would have overshot

Bf109s dont keep speed eaisly like LA's or Spitfires , in hard turns they bleed speed

fordfan25
06-05-2005, 05:41 PM
he was closeing in on me from the start is what i ment.

VW-IceFire
06-05-2005, 06:01 PM
Ford...I think its a matter of you were increasing your deflection (maybe there is a better word) into the turn in an effort to escape.

The Corsairs elevator at high speed is decently good so you can pull a tighter turn...but also induce higher G's...so while he wasn't turning as well as you thanks to his concrete elevator, he made up the difference by not blacking out and staying with you the rest of the way into the turn after you're blackout.

If you had controlled your elevator more lightly and mimiced him...you wouldn't have blacked out. I've done it myself....don't feel bad. You get that "Hey! I'm still manuverable at high speeds!!" and you start pulling crazy stunts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

fordfan25
06-05-2005, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Ford...I think its a matter of you were increasing your deflection (maybe there is a better word) into the turn in an effort to escape.

The Corsairs elevator at high speed is decently good so you can pull a tighter turn...but also induce higher G's...so while he wasn't turning as well as you thanks to his concrete elevator, he made up the difference by not blacking out and staying with you the rest of the way into the turn after you're blackout.

If you had controlled your elevator more lightly and mimiced him...you wouldn't have blacked out. I've done it myself....don't feel bad. You get that "Hey! I'm still manuverable at high speeds!!" and you start pulling crazy stunts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

thats posabile i wish i had made a track.

AerialTarget
06-05-2005, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by OD_79:
Yeah there is an advantage in the 09 in that they had a reclined seat which made G-forces more tolerable for a bit longer before they blacked out.

I believe you are thinking of the F-16 Falcon, as Me-109s did not have reclined seats any more than other warbirds. Or are you being sarcastic?

Dash_C.
06-05-2005, 08:55 PM
Another factor to take into consideration is screen brightness.

My LCD screen does NOT fade to black completely when I am blacked out. In fact I can still see the gunsight and shoot. On my old CRT I couln't see a thing when I blacked out.

Mackane1
06-05-2005, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OD_79:
Yeah there is an advantage in the 09 in that they had a reclined seat which made G-forces more tolerable for a bit longer before they blacked out.

I believe you are thinking of the F-16 Falcon, as Me-109s did not have reclined seats any more than other warbirds. Or are you being sarcastic? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A quote from the Winter 2005 issue of FLIGHT JOURNAL magazine. The article is entitled, FLYING THE BF-109, written by the late Mark Hanna and Capt. Eric Brown.
The pilot writes: "To enter the cockpit, you climb on board and gently lower yourself downward and forward while holding on to the windscreen. Once inside, you are almost lying down as you would be if driving a race car."

I think being in this position would prolong the time it took to reach "blackout".

VW-IceFire
06-05-2005, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by AerialTarget:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OD_79:
Yeah there is an advantage in the 09 in that they had a reclined seat which made G-forces more tolerable for a bit longer before they blacked out.

I believe you are thinking of the F-16 Falcon, as Me-109s did not have reclined seats any more than other warbirds. Or are you being sarcastic? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not sure about the 109 but the FW190 is well documented as the pilot sitting in an angled position so as to lessen the effects of blacking out during high-Gs. We're told that this is not modeled and that all planes/pilots are treated the same way.

However, as noted, not all planes are equal. The 109s elevator stiffens to an incredible ammount at high speeds...its virtually impossible to blackout above 450kph because you can't get the plane to do anything that could cause a blackout. Another plane, like the FW190 is very easy to cause a blackout. The Corsair and Mustang also fall into that category.

fordfan25
06-05-2005, 11:08 PM
well his elavaters wernt stiff in that turn lol.

LEBillfish
06-05-2005, 11:47 PM
Just a shot in the dark here...(heh, pun)...However when you black out or even begin to in the sim you lose control....hence start losing authority over say a hard turn as the plane flatens out its path......

As that happens if your opponent has not blacked out and slowed some...He will make the turn better then you as you are leveling your turn AND continue to gain as you have lost your speed or E.

Long enough and you will be slow and flying somewhat level.........an easy target.

Planes here and I assume r/l generate G-forces differently. That has nothing to do with an advantage given one side or another yet the ability of a plane to hold a correction...in the case of G-forces the elevator.

If your plane tends to slip, or lose its grip on the climb or turn, essentailly sliding with the wind against its belly it won't generate G-forces as much as a plane that grips and holds that correction.

So in truth he was probably slipping through his turn actually decelerating him wherein you were carving the turn so the forces stay high.

All just a guess but real answer is this.......He out flew you in a poorer turning plane. Think plane you flew is bad with G...Try a Ki-61 or Mousetang. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Abbuzze
06-06-2005, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by HayateAce:
Blackout is lessened for 109 in the name of G A M E P L A Y .

http://www.acespilotshop.com/images/products/gifts/pedal-planes-red-baron.jpg

Hmm Paranoia??

The question to the answer is maybe very easy, in the first time of your turn he don´t have to turn as hard as you, cause he is just trieing to cut through your turn, so even with higher speed his turn is wider, cause it started erlier, if he stayed at your 6 he maybe burnd so much energy that the turning radius is similar but with a difference, you flow a longer time with with a higher g-load so you are more blackening out, and less g-resitance left.

Happens also if you fly in a 109 and being attacked from behind... I know it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tully__
06-06-2005, 01:50 AM
If you jerk the stick back to max G you'll black out quicker than if you ease it back.

If he was at long range, he may only have needed to make a gentle turn to bring his gun line into a lead shooting position for a snap shot. Only after he'd closed up would he have had to pull greater G to hold the gun solution if he needed a longer burst.

Further, did he pull a straight turn or a high yo-yo? The yo-yo can make a huge difference....

As for black out... it's the same for all pilots regardless of plane type, but you have to be careful jumping to conclusions about how much G the other pilot is pulling. It's not always as obvious as it looks. Minor differences in speed and direction of manouver can make large differences in blackout.

SeaFireLIV
06-06-2005, 01:58 AM
What Tully said is what i meant to say. It may look is as if you`re both doing the exact same moves... but you`re not. That`s what makes a difference to the black outs. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif