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KGr.HH-Sunburst
10-19-2005, 10:06 AM
Hi,

First i have no idea if this is realistic or not
so im not goin to make any conclusions
this is more to add to the whole discussion about planes that are to unstable and wobble around
but i've noticed with the introduction with patch 4.01 and now 4.02 that whenever i apply roll input the aircraft starts to yaw or shakes around
making it very hard to get tracking shot, im playing this sim for 4 years and im a pretty good shot so the "learn to shoot" doesnt cut it
So i have tried a few thing to make the plane go smooth again but to no avail

recalibrating the stick doesnt seem to help and trying looser stick input is no help either
so i was watching the stick input in the input option to see whenever i apply roll if there was rudder movement but this isnt the case (using twist rudder)
ive tried different settings with larger deadzones, more filtering and lower input values and nothing seem to help

i dont think planes were that unstable and sensetive because I with thousands of flight sim hours have a problem with shooting, i can not imagine how hard it must be then for a RL pilot with only a few dozen combat hours
but its only a feeling, if its realistic so be it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

any ideas ?

BTW i have only seen this on the F4U, F6F, P51, P47 spitfire and some others
im using an X45 with thrustmaster fox 2 and also tested it with my old saitek EVO but the same results

Chuck_Older
10-19-2005, 10:15 AM
A real pilot might have few combat hours, but you can bet your bottom dollar that real pilots in WWII were trained to know how to fly the aircraft


The plane won't ever just spin perfectly on it's roll axis, and not oscillate the nose. Think about it. How could this happen? If you kick the rudder, you can see the plane might want to bank, even though you're not rolling the plane, correct? So why does it surprise you that the roll axis can mke the node yaw?

KGr.HH-Sunburst
10-19-2005, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
A real pilot might have few combat hours, but you can bet your bottom dollar that real pilots in WWII were trained to know how to fly the aircraft

agreed, but im talking about life fire, deflection shooting i.e guns on target



The plane won't ever just spin perfectly on it's roll axis, and not oscillate the nose. Think about it. How could this happen? If you kick the rudder, you can see the plane might want to bank, even though you're not rolling the plane, correct? So why does it surprise you that the roll axis can mke the node yaw?

i agree and know that a plane wont spin perfectly on its roll axis maybe i should have asked if it was overdone or not however my question still stand, were planes that unstable and does the nose oscillate 4 or 5 times by every slightest roll input and why this is more of a problem with the P51 or P47 than on a 109?

The problem for me is keeping the plane stable so i can keep my guns on target for a period of time to get a good burst in on one spot, which is IMO almost impossible with 4.01 and 4.02

Slechtvalk
10-19-2005, 10:42 AM
Original il-2 was even harder with shooting though.

Shooting was way to easy (my opinion) so I don't complain when shooting becomes harder but maybe it isn't the right way to become harder though.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
10-19-2005, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Slechtvalk:
Original il-2 was even harder with shooting though.

yep but that was because of the gun damage and nose shaking around more when guns fired
add the larger muzzle flashes to

blackpulpit1970
10-19-2005, 10:51 AM
Yes sunburst i have the same problem and so does everyone else im afraid, i flew the p-51 online last night and it was dam hard to line up a shot due to the yaw effect my plane was expeirencing. It was terrible to say the least the bouncing around with little pitch input was making line ups very hard, and yes ive been flyin this game for over 3 years now and i also changed my stick input settings to low to see if that helped but to no avail. The truth is this game has takin a big step backwards in my personal opinion and i wonder if oleg has picked up his joystick and flown his own game in quite a long time, if he has then i guess this is his version of how ww2 planes flew, its not my grandfathers way when he flew the p-47 in the war(i asked him about this movement). O well what can ya do.

Jumoschwanz
10-19-2005, 10:58 AM
I don't have any problems making shots with the new patch at all no matter what I am flying. So get some more practice in boys, or check your equipment.

Jumoschwanz

StellarRat
10-19-2005, 11:45 AM
The nose won't pitch around too much if your control inputs are gentle. The P-47 D-27 is the worst due to the lack of the fillet behind the bubble canopy (Oleg models an early version of the D-27 which had this problem.) Compare the P-51 with the 47 D-27 and 47 D-10 to see the differences. If your having problems hitting stuff it's because you're too far away. Nose wobble won't throw your aim off much if you're under 200 meters.

p-11.cAce
10-19-2005, 11:51 AM
Jumoschwanz Posted Wed October 19 2005 09:58
I don't have any problems making shots with the new patch at all no matter what I am flying. So get some more practice in boys, or check your equipment.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I could not agree more! Remember the plane flies herself just fine - the pilot should just whisper in her ear and lightly guide her where he wants to go. If you are yanking & banking you are either not thinking far enough ahead or have put yourself in front of an enemy - which often happens from not thinking far enough ahead.

dagenham_dave
10-19-2005, 11:58 AM
learn to shoot dont cut it eh?

well, perhaps we all have to "learn" how the new FM handles, remember when they introduced the new FM, it made the sim fly completly different.
now it feels like it is getting realer. if you read through the posts in the forums, you will find posts by real pilots, personaly, i have only flown cesna's, and they unfortunatly dont have any guns lol.

carress your plane, dont jerk it....... lol

ps. if you use a twist stick, then perhaps it is set up to sensative and the natural movement of your hand when rolling is twisting your rudder....
i use x-45 and never get this issue.

Platypus_1.JaVA
10-19-2005, 12:16 PM
Shooting=harder=good

It makes you extra happy if you get that kill. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

In RL, there wheren't many aces. You are considered a veteran if you got two or three kills. Most (allied) pilots did not fly combact missions for years also.

But it can be quite fun to shoot hordes of enemy aircraft and feel like the hero of the day http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifYou can lower some realism and AI options then.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
10-19-2005, 12:57 PM
Im gentle allright... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

anyway if it is so that harder=more realistic so be it, it wont stop me from flying this wonderfull sim http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

effte
10-19-2005, 01:24 PM
And the reason for yaw when rolling (adverse yaw) is, of course, that a wing generating lift generates drag. As you deflect the ailerons, one wing generates more lift, hence more drag - and then yaw.

TX-EcoDragon
10-19-2005, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by effte:
And the reason for yaw when rolling (adverse yaw) is, of course, that a wing generating lift generates drag. As you deflect the ailerons, one wing generates more lift, hence more drag - and then yaw.


Yes! Because of this the rising wing will slow down somewhat, and the dropping wing will accelerate if the pilot doesn't counter this with rudder. As it is adverse yaw is still less pronounced in the sim than in most real world aircraft that require substantial rudder pressure in particular when making abrupt aileron inputs to the left and right. Adverse yaw is the primary reason we have a rudder on aircraft, to "coordinate" the rudder with ailerons in effect means applying rudder pressure in the direction of turn during the time the ailerons are deflected.

VW-IceFire
10-19-2005, 03:38 PM
You may also be having some control issues like I was having...search around on the forums.

VFS-214_Hawk
10-19-2005, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by effte:
And the reason for yaw when rolling (adverse yaw) is, of course, that a wing generating lift generates drag. As you deflect the ailerons, one wing generates more lift, hence more drag - and then yaw.


Yes! Because of this the rising wing will slow down somewhat, and the dropping wing will accelerate if the pilot doesn't counter this with rudder. As it is adverse yaw is still less pronounced in the sim than in most real world aircraft that require substantial rudder pressure in particular when making abrupt aileron inputs to the left and right. Adverse yaw is the primary reason we have a rudder on aircraft, to "coordinate" the rudder with ailerons in effect means applying rudder pressure in the direction of turn during the time the ailerons are deflected. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The MAULE aircraft has a servo tab on the rudder that is connected to the aileron cables. As aileron is applied, the tab aids in deflecting the rudder to help prevent adverse yaw....so to speak. This is not used to turn the aircraft but used in general, slight aileron movements such in level flight with very shallow turns or just in ruff bumpy conditions to help keep the nose from bouncing around....due to adverse yaw!!!!

http://www.mauleairinc.com/

http://x10.putfile.com/10/29118234796.jpg

For example, when you apply left aileron, the left wing starts to drop. When this happens the tail wants to drop causing the nose to slightly pitch up and the aircraft beginning to "skid" into the turn. The rudder tabs are designed to prevent this from happining. When left aileron is applied, the tab moves opposite allowing the rudder to move before the pilot even applied rudder preasure. The rudder movement keeps the nose from pitching up making for a more coordinated tuen without the result that adverse yaw can cause.

I cant explain it any better....thats why I am not a flight instructor!

IL2-chuter
10-20-2005, 02:36 AM
To counter adverse yaw many WW2 aircraft had Frise type ailerons (as do many aircraft today). The Spitfire is a good example: the leading edge of the upgoing aileron, which is creating less drag than the downgoing aileron, drops below the bottom of the wing inducing drag balancing the drag. Another common method is to have the upgoing aileron travel more degrees up than the downgoing aileron travels down.



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

F19_Ob
10-20-2005, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by KGr.HH-Sunburst:
Hi,

First i have no idea if this is realistic or not
so im not goin to make any conclusions..........but i've noticed with the introduction with patch 4.01 and now 4.02 that whenever i apply roll input the aircraft starts to yaw or shakes around making it very hard to get tracking shot


I have experienced this thing in a Cessna a few times (Not a pilot but have taken the controlls for a while in flight on a few occasions).
When banking so one wing pionts slightly upwards the nose falls.
There is atleast 3 reasons (likely more) for why, that I can recall at the moment.

1. Torque pulls nose down, wich is more noticeable in the rotation direction.

2. Weight of the engine is heaviest part and gravity pulls it downward. Perhaps slow or high speed matters aswell and how hard one pulls in a turn?

3. The lift changes over the surfaces whith a high bank angle and cause the pull down. Perhaps the fin get some lift qualities ?

What I could guess at the moment.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
10-20-2005, 06:58 AM
like i said i had no idea if this was realistic
im quite the n00b when it comes down to these kinda things

thanks for the input guys http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tully__
10-20-2005, 07:38 AM
I've also noticed two new things:

1. More pronounced adverse yaw modelling, which is what this thread is about. Real pilots have been mentioning the lack of adverse yaw in this sim (and other sims http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) since day one. It's nice to finally see it modelled. If you're more gentle, the adverse yaw should be less severe.

2. Gyroscopic forces. This causes yaw when you make sudden pitch changes. The direction of yaw will depend on the direction of rotation of the propellor. The severity will depend on the aircraft pitch change (elevator) input applied, the mass of the propeller and rotating engine components, the diameter of the propeller and rotating engine components and the current propeller/engine rpm.

Airmail109
10-20-2005, 09:53 AM
Well that settles it....the wobble-whiners are just n00bs who cant fly....get used to the more realistic FM cry babies! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

blackpulpit1970
10-20-2005, 11:45 AM
Wow Aimail101 nice post, very informative and mature.

mean_mango
10-20-2005, 01:26 PM
Adverse Yaw Effect. The downward deflection of one aileron causes much more drag than the upward deflection of the other, causing the aircraft to yaw in the opposite direction of the bank. That is why we need to add left rudder in proportion to stick pressure when doing a left bank.

See Stick and Rudder for more details! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif