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View Full Version : BUG in campaign system causes escorts not to spawn in the late war



mcoca
04-10-2005, 11:16 AM
(Edit: Changed subject to something a bit more clear, and cleared up the explanation)

Hi, new to this forum, please bear with me :-)

Yesterday I noticed something strange with convoys that should be heavily escorted according to the campaign files, but didn't have a single destroyer with them when I encountered them in the campaign.

After posting my findings over at subsim, and some investigation there, we can confirm that there is a bug that's causing most of the escorts in the late game not to spawn:

In a random group (all convoys are random groups), no ships will spawn that have a more recent AppearanceDate (defined in the Roster files) than the leader ship, even if they are defined to spawn with 100% probability.

Because most convoys are led by merchants, and most merchants have appearance dates of 1938, only the very old destroyers will spawn as convoy escorts. For example, if a convoy has an assigned escort of a very old destroyer, and a more modern one, only the old one will spawn. Even worse, as the war progresses, there will be no old destroyers defined, only the modern ones that won't spawn. So the convoy will be unescorted. That explains why I regularly find unescorted convoys in 1944.

Much more detailed info, with examples, at the relevant threads at subsim:
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=32780

and
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=32810.

A.K.Davis
04-10-2005, 11:53 AM
Not sure how this one slipped through. Pretty important. Would be nice to know if it is a known issue, as the workaround is far from ideal.

Johnny_JG2
04-10-2005, 12:19 PM
Great find!

I hope a Dev knows about this.

durex2000
04-10-2005, 12:43 PM
hmmm... Great work ! Probably thats why I have so far never seen modern destroyers ...and e.g. escort carriers.
Hope this serious bug is adressed soon.
durex

KiwiVenge
04-10-2005, 02:16 PM
Has any effort been made to report this to the Devs?

mcoca
04-10-2005, 02:27 PM
Is there a way to contact the Devs other than this forum? If so, I don't know about it.

Wolf52371
04-10-2005, 02:34 PM
Maybe this could be modded ourselves?

JohnDiFool1
04-10-2005, 02:36 PM
I sank a Bogue escort CV last night (I was in a
XXI in May 1944). He was being escorted by 3
DDs (didn't closely note their makes however).

mcoca
04-10-2005, 03:05 PM
@Wolf52371: There is a discussion at subsim right now on how to work around this. There is no clean way so far.

@JohnDiFool1: Yes, if the escort carrier was the leader of the group, as defined in the campaign files, it will spawn, as will all destroyers classes in service before the CV (for a Bogue, september 1942). However, if there was a DD defined in the group that came into service after the CV, for example, a DE Buckley (jan. 1943), it would not spawn.

mcoca
04-10-2005, 03:16 PM
To help clear up things, here is my complete description of the bug copied from Subsim:

In a random group, no ships will spawn that have a more recent AppearanceDate (defined in the Roster files) than the leader ship, even if they are defined to spawn with 100% probability.

Because most convoys are led by merchants, and most merchants have appearance dates of 1938, only the very old destroyers will spawn as convoy escorts. For example, if a convoy has an assigned escort of a very old destroyer, and a more modern one, only the old one will spawn. Even worse, as the war progresses, there will be no old destroyers defined, only the modern ones that won't spawn. So the convoy will be unescorted. That explains why I regularly find unescorted convoys in 1944.

You might get a temporary relief if the convoy leader happens to be a more modern merchant (say a Liberty or Victory), since then you will at least get some non-obsolete escorts (a Flower Corvette, for example). But the really good warships appear much later than the latest merchant.

To ilustrate the problem, I've built a table from the several random groups I've tested. To test, I created a single mission, set in August 1st, 1943, and added a randomly generated group with the ships listed. The fields are:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> Ship class and country: self explanatory :-)
<LI> Appearance: the AppearanceDate defined in data/Roster/Country/Sea/Ship.cfg.
<LI> Older: Whether or not the ship's Appearance Date is no later than the group leader's.
<LI> Spawns: Whether or not the ship spawns when I start the mission. Note the leader always spawns, so there is no problem with the groups itself.
[/list]

Now the table:

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
| Ship Class | Country | Appearance | Older | Spawns |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| DD Evarts (Leader) | American | 19420724 | X | X |
| DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | X | X |
| DD JC Butler | American | 19430616 | | |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| DD JC Butler (Leader) | American | 19430616 | X | X |
| DD Evarts | American | 19420724 | X | X |
| DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | X | X |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| C3 Cargo (Leader) | American | 19380101 | X | X |
| DD Evarts | American | 19420724 | | |
| DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | | |
| DD JC Butler | American | 19430616 | | |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| C3 Cargo (Leader) | American | 19380101 | X | X |
| DD Clemson | American | 19180101 | X | X |
| DD Buckley | American | 19430109 | | |
| DD Somers | American | 19370313 | X | X |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| DD Buckley (Leader) | American | 19430109 | X | X |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| C3 Cargo (Leader) | American | 19380101 | X | X |
| DD Buckley | American | 19430109 | | |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| C3 Cargo (Leader) | American | 19380101 | X | X |
| DD Buckley | American | 19430109 | | |
| DD Somers | American | 19370313 | X | X |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Victory Cargo (Leader) | American | 19420228 | X | X |
| DD Evarts | American | 19420724 | | |
| DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | X | X |
| DD JC Butler | American | 19430616 | | |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Liberty Cargo (Leader) | American | 19410927 | X | X |
| DD Evarts | American | 19420724 | | |
| DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | | |
| DD JC Butler | American | 19430616 | | |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Liberty Cargo (Leader) | British | 19430101 | X | X |
| DD Evarts | American | 19420724 | X | X |
| DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | X | X |
| DD JC Butler | American | 19430616 | | |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| CVE Casablanca (Leader) | American | 19430708 | X | X |
| DD Evarts | American | 19420724 | X | X |
| DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | X | X |
| DD JC Butler | American | 19430616 | X | X |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
</pre>

As you can see, all the Appearance dates are earlier than the mission date. And there is a 100% correlation between the older field and the spawn.

I think this is a huge bug, that makes convoy attacks a lot easier than they should be, and completely destroys the game late in the war for me. So, how do we get around to tell the devs? Being a software developer myself, I expect this will have an easy fix :-)

Meanwhile, we could work around the bug by modding all the units' AppearanceDate's to the earliest possible date. That would mean we could run into a Fletcher destroyer early in the war, if some patrol uses the "GENERIC Destroyer". But I guess that would the lesser of two evils.

What to you people think?

A.K.Davis
04-10-2005, 05:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mcoca:
To help clear up things, here is my complete description of the bug copied from Subsim:

In a random group, no ships will spawn that have a more recent AppearanceDate (defined in the Roster files) than the leader ship, even if they are defined to spawn with 100% probability.

Because most convoys are led by merchants, and most merchants have appearance dates of 1938, only the very old destroyers will spawn as convoy escorts. For example, if a convoy has an assigned escort of a very old destroyer, and a more modern one, only the old one will spawn. Even worse, as the war progresses, there will be no old destroyers defined, only the modern ones that won't spawn. So the convoy will be unescorted. That explains why I regularly find unescorted convoys in 1944.

You might get a temporary relief if the convoy leader happens to be a more modern merchant (say a Liberty or Victory), since then you will at least get some non-obsolete escorts (a Flower Corvette, for example). But the really good warships appear much later than the latest merchant.

To ilustrate the problem, I've built a table from the several random groups I've tested. To test, I created a single mission, set in August 1st, 1943, and added a randomly generated group with the ships listed. The fields are:

+ Ship class and country: self explanatory :-)
+ Appearance: the AppearanceDate defined in data/Roster/Country/Sea/Ship.cfg.
+ Older: Whether or not the ship's Appearance Date is no later than the group leader's.
+ Spawns: Whether or not the ship spawns when I start the mission. Note the leader always spawns, so there is no problem with the groups itself.


Now the table:

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">
| Ship Class | Country | Appearance | Older | Spawns |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| DD Evarts (Leader) | American | 19420724 | X | X |
| DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | X | X |
| DD JC Butler | American | 19430616 | | |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| DD JC Butler (Leader) | American | 19430616 | X | X |
| DD Evarts | American | 19420724 | X | X |
| DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | X | X |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| C3 Cargo (Leader) | American | 19380101 | X | X |
| DD Evarts | American | 19420724 | | |
| DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | | |
| DD JC Butler | American | 19430616 | | |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| C3 Cargo (Leader) | American | 19380101 | X | X |
| DD Clemson | American | 19180101 | X | X |
| DD Buckley | American | 19430109 | | |
| DD Somers | American | 19370313 | X | X |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| DD Buckley (Leader) | American | 19430109 | X | X |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| C3 Cargo (Leader) | American | 19380101 | X | X |
| DD Buckley | American | 19430109 | | |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| C3 Cargo (Leader) | American | 19380101 | X | X |
| DD Buckley | American | 19430109 | | |
| DD Somers | American | 19370313 | X | X |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Victory Cargo (Leader) | American | 19420228 | X | X |
| DD Evarts | American | 19420724 | | |
| DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | X | X |
| DD JC Butler | American | 19430616 | | |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Liberty Cargo (Leader) | American | 19410927 | X | X |
| DD Evarts | American | 19420724 | | |
| DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | | |
| DD JC Butler | American | 19430616 | | |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Liberty Cargo (Leader) | British | 19430101 | X | X |
| DD Evarts | American | 19420724 | X | X |
| DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | X | X |
| DD JC Butler | American | 19430616 | | |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| CVE Casablanca (Leader) | American | 19430708 | X | X |
| DD Evarts | American | 19420724 | X | X |
| DD Fletcher | American | 19420204 | X | X |
| DD JC Butler | American | 19430616 | X | X |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
</pre>

As you can see, all the Appearance dates are earlier than the mission date. And there is a 100% correlation between the older field and the spawn.

I think this is a _huge_ bug, that makes convoy attacks a lot easier than they should be, and completely destroys the game late in the war for me. So, how do we get around to tell the devs? Being a software developer myself, I expect this will have an easy fix :-)

Meanwhile, we could work around the bug by modding all the units' AppearanceDate's to the earliest possible date. That would mean we could run into a Fletcher destroyer early in the war, if some patrol uses the "GENERIC Destroyer". But I guess that would the lesser of two evils.

What to you people think? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it is a huge amount of user work that does not offer a true fix and for something that is clearly a big nasty bug that the devs should be on top of ASAP. I think energy would be much better expended on confirming whether or not this is a known issue. If known, I also suspect it would be far easier for the devs to make the necessary change than for users to spend hours and hours editing files that shouldn't need to be changed.

Great game, great devs, but the lack of community communication really sucks. I don't blame them for not using ubi, but there should be some forum or contact for reporting bugs like this.

If only Oleg were running the show. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kejotikk
04-10-2005, 06:40 PM
If you can get a hold of ubirazz im sure he could inform the devs about this.

KiwiVenge
04-10-2005, 07:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mcoca:
Is there a way to contact the Devs other than this forum? If so, I don't know about it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I went to the technical help web site and put a link to this thread and a quick explaination in the 'Ask A Question' section they have there.
All a guy can do i guess http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Charlie901
04-10-2005, 08:41 PM
WOW!


Major Bug here!

Lets do all we can to get the word out on this one pronto!

reumatiib
04-10-2005, 11:53 PM
The DD are so pointless anyway I just have to yawn. I'll just pretend that because of my own efforts intruding into the timeline that the Japs won a major victory in the Pacific that cuased the US and Brits to send all their ships there.

msxyz
04-11-2005, 12:35 AM
BUMP!. This bug is serious. Later in the war, the convoys benefitted not only from greater protection (more destroyer/corvettes) but also as the was progressed new types of ships were introduced.

I've seen myself some convoys in mid 44 without any excort at all! And this bug may be the explanation. If they were supposed to be defended only by newer DDs, they will never spawn.

reumatiib
04-11-2005, 09:04 AM
I was joking about being unconcerned. Of course I am! For me this flaw is just the cherry on top of a pile of mistakes. I was about to continue my career last night and suddenly woke up out of my SH3 adiction and asked myself, WHY FINISH IT? I mean, I can park my sub in an enemy port and repair my sub on the surface, the DD do not appear correctly, they are too weak, their depth charges are too weak, I can't shoot my guns like TRUE HISTORY (as I have confirmed from re-reading my U-boat books of late) the radio contacts are meaningless, the planes can be shot down as if they were made of butter, the compressed air is meaningless, the radio works underwater, with a loading trick I can move outside torpedoes into the inside even underwater, the crew weakens like 1990s geek-programers would and not like 1940s nazi crewmen, the hydrophone more or less works badly, the sonar man can't hear what I myself can hear very loudly!, the crew on deck can see ships in the fog and dark that I can't see, all ships and subs can stop to quickly and start too quickly, and now the DD won't appear as they should. Added up this game is a TRAIN WRECK, even more than SH2 was. Its beautiful, but it fails as a sim completely.

And it appears that the dev team is made up of one or two guys and that's all, cause their patches do not fix the important things, but deal with tiny side issues and they fark up the game once you install them.

I doubt this game ever saw real beta-testing. Really, I can't believe it....

reumatiib
04-11-2005, 10:08 AM
Well one thing I thought was an important glitch wasn't - it seems the data I found on the net was over simplified ==>


I have been waiting for an answer from a guy who should know and his answer finally came in my email. The average of 20 - 25 feet figures out to about 7 meters, which in the SH3 is would be almost spot-on. Note that 300 pounders would be 1/3 of that or 2+ meters!!! It would have to be a dead on hit. I am glad I was wrong because now all I have to worry about is the lack of newer DDs in 43-44. And I think I can fix that myself. I feel my adiction coming back on....(I am glad I was wrong!)


"The various 600 lbs. US depth charges had an estimated lethal radius of
20-25 feet. The 300 lbs. ones were roughly 1/3 less than this number.

For the British Type D, the standard for the early part of WWII, the
estimated lethal radius was about 14 feet.

These numbers are estimates and represent various assumptions and
"averaging" results. Lethal radius varies depending upon depth, angle
of
the sub to the explosion and position of the explosion relative to the
submarine (above, below, alongside). These factors may increase or
decrease
the above numbers in various ways. So, in other words, take these
numbers
(or any others that you google) with a large pinch of salt.

Sincerely yours,
Tony DiGiulian
NavWeaps at http://www.NavWeaps.com"


tonyd@navweaps.com
Subject: Tech_Board