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Texan...
02-02-2006, 10:09 PM
Some really cool vids for you chaps. Hope this isn't a repeat. Some of the shots of the 109s in France looks like a bunch of teenagers having fun.


109s in France (http://www.zippyvideos.com/3364570903036596/me-109s_in_france/)

P40 attacked 20mm (http://www.zippyvideos.com/4327848373025686/p-40b_under_fire/)

190 vs La5 (http://www.zippyvideos.com/3648446573016496/fw190la5/)

109 vs Spitfire (http://www.zippyvideos.com/7732131003015986/spitfire/)

109 vs Spitfire vs Ju88 (http://www.zippyvideos.com/7060498973360346/vs_spitfire_2/)

Now that I've watched these I remember that we've passed them around before. Oh well, maybe they'll be new to someone.

woofiedog
02-02-2006, 10:25 PM
The first movie... 109's in France. At the end it looks like the Me-109 is taking down a De-520 Aircraft.

http://www.vonritten.com/pictures/air/d520.jpg

Pirschjaeger
02-02-2006, 10:34 PM
Thx Texan. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Friendly_flyer
02-02-2006, 11:24 PM
I hadn't seen those before, thanks!

It's amazing to see the graceful slow arches the planes make, quite unlike the spasmic jumping about I see in game. Are those films in some sort of slow motion?

Texan...
02-03-2006, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
I hadn't seen those before, thanks!

It's amazing to see the graceful slow arches the planes make, quite unlike the spasmic jumping about I see in game. Are those films in some sort of slow motion?

Who knows what speed the film was recorded and rerecorded over the years. Maybe some camera/film buffs can chime in, but clearly the action is way slower than real life.

That poor La5 sure hung in there a long time. Wonder if the 190 was outta 20mm. Funny that the 190 guncam view blows as bad as our gunsight view.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Pirschjaeger
02-03-2006, 12:15 AM
I´ve noticed many times from guncam clips that the victim doesn´t move much. It´s often made me wonder if this sim is too overmodelled.

Ever see a clip where the victim roles away quickly or makes a real attempt at getting away?

Texan...
02-03-2006, 12:45 AM
Certainly, here's a P51 vs Fw190 (http://www.web-birds.com/8th/339/gun/339-01.mpg)

This Fw190 pilot puts in a heroic effort to evade. Looks amazingly like many encounters I've had with good Fw fliers. The 190 looks like it's struggling to turn with the Mustang, but he certainly uses that roll rate well.

From the opening slide:

EIGTH AIR FORCE

COMBAT Film No. 20851
Capt. D.W. Johnson 503 SQDN
26 NOVEMBER 1944 339 F.G.

I do not know what model Mustang Johnson was flying 24 November 1944. Here he is pictured on a B or C.

http://www.web-birds.com/8th/339/503/r21-5.jpg

waffen-79
02-03-2006, 12:53 AM
poor 190 chap http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif, excellent skills by the mustang pilot

Texan...
02-03-2006, 01:02 AM
For sure Waffen, and this kind of footage brings home the actualities of aerial combat. The huge chunk that flies off at the end, I believe is the canopy or whatever is left of it. Who knows, the ole boy might have gotten out. He sure flew the heck outta that 190.

Friendly_flyer
02-03-2006, 01:10 AM
Compared to what we in the game, it looks like half speed. The bullets seem to travle too slow too.

joeap
02-03-2006, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
I´ve noticed many times from guncam clips that the victim doesn´t move much. It´s often made me wonder if this sim is too overmodelled.

Ever see a clip where the victim roles away quickly or makes a real attempt at getting away?

You don't think the clips are slowed down a lot Fritz? Sure seems so to me.

StG2_Schlachter
02-03-2006, 03:06 AM
Playback won't start for me?

Suggestions anyone?

Damn http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
02-03-2006, 03:12 AM
Guncams are usually slo-mo. The narrow field of view and the maneuvers would make it extremely hard to notice anything in normal speed.

SeaFireLIV
02-03-2006, 03:13 AM
I have NEVER seen the LA5 footage before! For some reason the title says Yak9? It`s interesting to note that when the LA5 turns right, the footage goes vertically UP, indicating that the 109 isn`t turn fighting but probably b&Zing the LA5. First time I`ve ever seen LA5 on the receiving end in combat.

Anyway, some of the footage does look too slow and I think it is a little slowed. But I still think that aircraft did not spin like they tended to do in FB pre-4.02. With 4.02, aircraft do avade and roll slightly slower which i believe is almost as realistic as the footage shows. This is why i don`t believe aircraft should JUST be modeled to factory specs; they should also have a `slow reaction` time set in to compensate for pilot fatigue and exertion (since pilots in games don`t suffer these problems).

Codex1971
02-03-2006, 03:27 AM
190 v La5....

La5 is over modelled.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

BGs_Ricky
02-03-2006, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
they should also have a `slow reaction` time set in to compensate for pilot fatigue and exertion (since pilots in games don`t suffer these problems).

And also we don't suffer the effect of 12,7 or 20mm hitting our plane, armored seat plates or windshield. In "The Big Show" Clostermann describes how being hit by 20 or 30mm would be liked being punched really hard in the chest, the flash and sound of the hit would sometimes blind you and shock you. No wonder the reactions from some of these pilots seem slow.

Genie-
02-03-2006, 03:40 AM
I hate when they stream and do not give...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So.. here are downloadable files..
109s in France (http://www.zippyvideos.com/3364570903036596/me-109s_in_france/)

http://216.86.152.122/videos/0/303659_ea453.wmv

P40 attacked 20mm (http://www.zippyvideos.com/4327848373025686/p-40b_under_fire/)

http://216.86.152.122/videos/0/302568_d2bf9_256k.wmv

190 vs La5 (http://www.zippyvideos.com/3648446573016496/fw190la5/)

http://216.86.152.122/videos/0/301649_9e27e.wmv

btw.. I wonder.. why he didn't just pull the stick and turn fight.. hmmm.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
109 vs Spitfire (http://www.zippyvideos.com/7732131003015986/spitfire/)

http://216.86.152.122/videos/0/301598_726fb_256k.wmv


109 vs Spitfire vs Ju88 (http://www.zippyvideos.com/7060498973360346/vs_spitfire_2/)

http://216.86.149.136/videos/0/336034_d6061_256k.wmv

StG2_Schlachter
02-03-2006, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by Genie-:
I hate when they stream and do not give...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So.. here are downloadable files..
109s in France (http://www.zippyvideos.com/3364570903036596/me-109s_in_france/)

http://216.86.152.122/videos/0/303659_ea453.wmv

P40 attacked 20mm (http://www.zippyvideos.com/4327848373025686/p-40b_under_fire/)

http://216.86.152.122/videos/0/302568_d2bf9_256k.wmv

190 vs La5 (http://www.zippyvideos.com/3648446573016496/fw190la5/)

http://216.86.152.122/videos/0/301649_9e27e.wmv

btw.. I wonder.. why he didn't just pull the stick and turn fight.. hmmm.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
109 vs Spitfire (http://www.zippyvideos.com/7732131003015986/spitfire/)

http://216.86.152.122/videos/0/301598_726fb_256k.wmv


109 vs Spitfire vs Ju88 (http://www.zippyvideos.com/7060498973360346/vs_spitfire_2/)

http://216.86.149.136/videos/0/336034_d6061_256k.wmv

THANKS BUDDY !!!! YES ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
02-03-2006, 03:53 AM
I'd give a real money to have "B17 II - FlyingFortress" tracers in IL2. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

robban75
02-03-2006, 04:26 AM
That La-5 sure looks like an La-7 to me. Look at position of the intake scoop. It's not placed in the nose, but under the belly.

robban75
02-03-2006, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by Texan...:
Certainly, here's a P51 vs Fw190 (http://www.web-birds.com/8th/339/gun/339-01.mpg)

This Fw190 pilot puts in a heroic effort to evade. Looks amazingly like many encounters I've had with good Fw fliers. The 190 looks like it's struggling to turn with the Mustang, but he certainly uses that roll rate well.



I don't think the 190 is struggling to turn with the Mustang. The Fw 190 was hit several times though, and it still manouvered well. But in the end it had taken alot of hits and one can see that the plane becomes more difficult to manouver for the pilot. Perhaps the pilot was wounded even. Also, being the attacker, the Mustang was also in a much more favorable position. But why did the Mustang pilot continue firing on the 190 after the pilot had jettisoned the canopy and prepared to bail out?



How about those .50cals? I think they resemble the ones we have in-game rather well, don't you think? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Sturm_Williger
02-03-2006, 04:57 AM
Interesting also that several times the 190 gets out of his firing solution and he has to reposition ( we surmise ) before his next shot.

Unlike the stick-to-the-tail stuff we sometimes see in DF servers.

Although we only see the shots, you can imagine him reworking his solution between each shot.

Texan...
02-03-2006, 05:12 AM
Originally posted by robban75:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Texan...:
Certainly, here's a P51 vs Fw190 (http://www.web-birds.com/8th/339/gun/339-01.mpg)

This Fw190 pilot puts in a heroic effort to evade. Looks amazingly like many encounters I've had with good Fw fliers. The 190 looks like it's struggling to turn with the Mustang, but he certainly uses that roll rate well.



I don't think the 190 is struggling to turn with the Mustang. The Fw 190 was hit several times though, and it still manouvered well. But in the end it had taken alot of hits and one can see that the plane becomes more difficult to manouver for the pilot. Perhaps the pilot was wounded even. Also, being the attacker, the Mustang was also in a much more favorable position. But why did the Mustang pilot continue firing on the 190 after the pilot had jettisoned the canopy and prepared to bail out?



How about those .50cals? I think they resemble the ones we have in-game rather well, don't you think? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I thought, someone (you) has read an awful lot into this footage. How can you begin to say the .50s are correct from seeing this one clip. How can you say how many hits the 190 actually took. Maybe the Mustang had a good pilot but a lousy shot. Maybe he was almost out of ammo and couldn't lay the hammer down. Towards the end you see a steady stream of tracers, indicating he is just about out.

As far as turning, early on in the clip it is quite evident that the 190 flier pulls the plane into a sharp turn, which the P51 seems to be able to easily pull lead on, at which point the Fw rolls over into another direction.

Ahhh, we're just going to hack this clip up frame by frame now.....

jds1978
02-03-2006, 05:23 AM
But why did the Mustang pilot continue firing on the 190 after the pilot had jettisoned the canopy and prepared to bail out?


chances are that this fight happened over Nazi held Europe. my guess is that the Mustang pilot doesn't want to meet this guy a second time. horrific is an understatement

MercilessFatBoy
02-03-2006, 05:25 AM
in most guncams planes dont make much atemp to evade the enemy because they never say it coming..... have u ever jumped some one? they dont move much nither... and afther the first pass they are too damaged that u could manuver a truck into their six.....
and u guys see the mustang has only tracers on a single gun..... many pilots prefered no tracers at all because tracers would normaly give u a wrong sence of direction... wonder if they do that on game too???

yes p51 evil chute killer

Kuna15
02-03-2006, 05:26 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
I´ve noticed many times from guncam clips that the victim doesn´t move much. It´s often made me wonder if this sim is too overmodelled.

Ever see a clip where the victim roles away quickly or makes a real attempt at getting away?

I saw several of such clips. I think you saw it too, remember those in color P-51 heavy deflection on Zero (he burns afterwards), FW-190 tight turning on P-47 this was black-white (P-47 has white trails due to almost stall turning), P-51 vs. Bf-109G also heavy mix up turning fight...

But they consist maybe only 10-15% of all I saw. On bulk of others target seems to happily flying straight forward soaking up bullets.

robban75
02-03-2006, 05:40 AM
Originally posted by Texan...:
As I thought, someone (you) has read an awful lot into this footage. How can you begin to say the .50s are correct from seeing this one clip. How can you say how many hits the 190 actually took. Maybe the Mustang had a good pilot but a lousy shot. Maybe he was almost out of ammo and couldn't lay the hammer down. Towards the end you see a steady stream of tracers, indicating he is just about out.

As far as turning, early on in the clip it is quite evident that the 190 flier pulls the plane into a sharp turn, which the P51 seems to be able to easily pull lead on, at which point the Fw rolls over into another direction.

Ahhh, we're just going to hack this clip up frame by frame now.....

I'm sorry for commenting on the clip, Texan, You are of course right in your analysis, I was wrong. I appologize.

Ratsack
02-03-2006, 05:48 AM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
I'd give a real money to have "B17 II - FlyingFortress" tracers in IL2. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Oh, yes please! The best 0.50 cal tracers I've ever seen in a sim.

I do like the 20 mm in IL-2, though.

Ratsack

Targ
02-03-2006, 06:02 AM
You will never see tracers like that in anything Oleg codes.
The reason tracers look like that in all of the old guncam clips is becouse of the camera speed = very slow.

WOLFMondo
02-03-2006, 06:06 AM
Not all gun cameras were slow. Some were very fast so they could capture everything and be replayed in very slow motion for analisys.

plumps_
02-03-2006, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
Some were very fast so they could capture everything and be replayed in very slow motion for analisys. I think that's what Targ was trying to say. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Fast camera = many frames per second are captured. If you replay the film at normal speed it will be in slow motion.

Also note that those cams were driven by a spring. The speed actually depends on the tension of that spring - and that depends on how much the mechanics wind up the spring. So speed in guncam clips means nothing.

BTW I think another reason why tracers look differently in guncam clips is the different sensitivity of the film to various wavelenghts compared to that of the human eye.

joeap
02-03-2006, 03:45 PM
A good article about tracers in gun cam films:

hollywood strikes again (http://www.spanishcastle.com/justplanefun/hollywood.html)

The guncam itself vibrates don't forget guys.

ploughman
02-03-2006, 03:58 PM
Interesting looking at that first clip, the cannon hits on the wings seem to leave a 'glow' perhaps from burning aluminium or an increase in albedo.

The thing with that P-51 v 190 track, is it all the same combat or is it a compilation of various gun camera footage.

BaronUnderpants
02-03-2006, 04:55 PM
First off im pretty sure the clips is slowed down. for differant reason i guess.

Second, someone arround here posted some settings apparently making the speed of manouvers ( roll, pich and yaw ) behave like a former WWII pilot remembers it ( correct me if im wrong here ). And wow!! what a differance, i tried out the spit against He111 with thoose settings and the Spit felt exactly like the He111 in the game, very slugish, almost like u would play on half speed in singel player.

With the rate and quick response we have in the game u would most sertainly black out in a hart beat IRL.

Haigotron
02-03-2006, 05:16 PM
Two questions:

What was the chunk that flew off the wing of the spit in the "109 vs Spitfire " vid? it was huge, but did not look like a flap, maybe it was distorted when the round hit it?

and secondly, more of a remark, its amazing to see the 190 roll as well as they say it did, in the p51 vs fw190 movie!

partic_3
02-03-2006, 08:54 PM
I read on this forum some months ago a report by a WWII pilot who said that the high G moves we all pull off when evading attack were incredibly exhausting and after one or two of them all the pilot could handle were comparatively low G manoeuvres.

Xiolablu3
02-04-2006, 04:16 AM
I cant get that p51vs190 to download http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


I think a lot of times it doesnt seem like the victim is moving much because

a)the clips are slowed down for effect

b) the attacker is following the enemy planes moves.

Abbuzze
02-04-2006, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
I'd give a real money to have "B17 II - FlyingFortress" tracers in IL2. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

Maybe as an grphical option, they are as realistic as "lense flare".

zugfuhrer
02-04-2006, 08:58 AM
That is what I call a realistic damageprofile and effects of gunfire.
Notice that there is no flashes from the spits guns, only grey smoke.

EPP_Gibbs
02-04-2006, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
I´ve noticed many times from guncam clips that the victim doesn´t move much. It´s often made me wonder if this sim is too overmodelled.

Ever see a clip where the victim roles away quickly or makes a real attempt at getting away?

If you look at the fire rate and flight time of the rounds you can see that the film is running slow, so it's no surprise the target doesn't make any sudden moves!

BigganD
02-04-2006, 10:34 AM
Hard to compare this clip to what we have in il2.

UberPickle
02-04-2006, 11:48 AM
Good vids! Thanks texan!

But I presume that the camera is probably running at a low fps (15-17fps) to make the outside lighting as best as possible on B&W film.

Texan...
02-04-2006, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Targ:
You will never see tracers like that in anything Oleg codes.
The reason tracers look like that in all of the old guncam clips is becouse of the camera speed = very slow.

Yeah, suuuuuure.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif