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RAF-Blackace
04-01-2004, 03:47 AM
S!

A few questions about the carriers.

1/ Will wire landing be compulsory or can it be controlled by the player if he wants no wires ?

2/ Will their be elevators on the decks ?

3/ Will there be a landing signals officer, or other such aid ?

4/ Will the carrier be moving when your landing or static ?

5/ Will multiple players be able to land on it and watch their mates coming in ?

6/ Will we be able to program the carriers course in FMB ?

Hope you can answer these. I am going back to CFS1 and we are the squad that gave the community the ark royal.

Ever since CFS1 carrier ops have not been done well. CFS2 was a joke, bouncing around at different times etc etc.

I hope 1c do a much better job of it, which I know they will.

RAF Blackace.

www.raf662.com (http://www.raf662.com)

RAF-Blackace
04-01-2004, 03:47 AM
S!

A few questions about the carriers.

1/ Will wire landing be compulsory or can it be controlled by the player if he wants no wires ?

2/ Will their be elevators on the decks ?

3/ Will there be a landing signals officer, or other such aid ?

4/ Will the carrier be moving when your landing or static ?

5/ Will multiple players be able to land on it and watch their mates coming in ?

6/ Will we be able to program the carriers course in FMB ?

Hope you can answer these. I am going back to CFS1 and we are the squad that gave the community the ark royal.

Ever since CFS1 carrier ops have not been done well. CFS2 was a joke, bouncing around at different times etc etc.

I hope 1c do a much better job of it, which I know they will.

RAF Blackace.

www.raf662.com (http://www.raf662.com)

Black Sheep
04-01-2004, 05:23 AM
Hell yeah, that'd be the ultimate experience; trying to catch the wire with a Seafire - or any damn plane, in fact - on a rolling, pitching deck in bad weather, whilst trying to watch the signals given out by the landing officer.

As somebody else here put it, The Wallet would shell out big money for that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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Bearcat99
04-01-2004, 08:06 AM
Hey Blackace.... I did a few Arkroyals in CFS1 with you a while back.... good to see you here.

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RAF_SmokyDaBear
04-06-2004, 12:39 PM
Bump- any answers from the developers?

VF-10_Snacky
04-06-2004, 01:39 PM
I don't see how you could do a Pacific theatre WWII sim and not model those things you listed. If you don't have detailed carrier ops then you can't have a good Pacific theatre sim IMO.
In order for the carrier to work for me it will have to have some atmosphere. I want to hear the Air Boss on the 1MC calling "Clear the Deck for Launch!" or "Fire, Fire, Fire on the flightdeck!!!" when a plane crashes,etc.
I want to see other aircraft on the flightdeck besides my own and I want to see other equipment on the deck like tugs and fire equipment.
I want all this to work in multiplayer as well.

Oh and I want to smell avgas and sea salt as well if its not to much to ask.lol http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Son of a B**ch! That's gonna leave a mark."

Fliger747
04-06-2004, 03:06 PM
Mix the two in a glass and sit it next to your force feedback joystick, lots of "atmosphre"!

The 1% planes in CFS II seem to be pretty true to life as to carrier landings and general pattern flying charcteristics. The deck does pitch and roll, about 10-15 ft. Not enough wind over the deck however, an increase from 30 to 40-45 knots would be better.

The deck is far too empty however, as noted above, and a BARRIER is necessity to a realistic operation except for carrier quals.

LEXX_Luthor
04-06-2004, 03:07 PM
The techie stuff may have to wait for Oleg's Pacific Sim with all new engine (improved after BoB).

If the FP is just land based Pacific, fine with me. Who needs NAVY anyway?

MARINES Rule! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Fennec_P
04-06-2004, 03:47 PM
In PF you will get 3 landing choices: wet, dry, or flaming.

Gunny124
04-06-2004, 04:05 PM
Lex, you're making points. Semper Fi!

luthier1
04-06-2004, 05:17 PM
We're still working on carriers, so a lot of things are up in the air. You'll definitely be catching wires and landing on moving ships with plottable courses in FMB - and of course carriers will support more than one plane at a time. Not sure about LSOs or pitching decks though.

Not sure about elevators as well. All carriers are built with hangar decks and elevators, so at the very least you should be able to destroy those on enemy ships. However we just can't figure out how to get the elevators to work without being irritating. There are a lot of questions to answer - say if we start the player on the lower deck, and he's #11 in a 16-plane group taking off from the carrier. How do we get him to his take-off position? Start the other 10 planes in hangar deck as well, then make you sit there for half an hour as they're all lifted up after you and taxied to the take-off points?

Same for elevators on landings. There's also a matter of what to do with a rabid player who decided to taxi into an elevator shaft when its down in the hangar deck - we'd have to model the whole new part of FM for planes plumetting down a dozen feet on hard surfaces at low airspeeds.

In short, hangars and elevator decks raise a lot of new issues, many of which I'm sure we didn't even think of. So I can't tell you yet what we'll do - all I can say is that we're trying http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg

zoomar2
04-06-2004, 05:32 PM
Whatever Luthier and co come up with is fine by me. Personally I never imagined we'd have details like working elevators and starting in hangers! I just assumed the player would start in position 1 thru 4 on the fight deck. I am wondering how we'll get our landing signals, though (I'd vote for a little animated man in the lower corner of screen giving us the signs)

heywooood
04-06-2004, 07:12 PM
Hangar decks and working elevators?...

Ok. But starting out on deck in position is acceptable to me.. I cant answer for anyone else but, I'm fine with that..

As to elevators and lower decks, wasn't there a lot of pushing on these planes by crewmen, to manoever them around in tight spaces?..

Would the pilots be sitting in their 'pits while this is going on? .. I dont think there was actual taxiing below decks and only as much as was absolutely necessary on top.

You might as well include armorers and re-fuelers then, no?

Dont get me wrong - I like all that and hope someday to have it all on my desktop $$$$ but I'll settle for winding it up on deck, in takeoff position armed and ready.

AS for landing and taxiing out of the way for my wingies to trap.. that should be doable, right?

luthier1
04-06-2004, 07:29 PM
heywooood,

That's exactly what I'm saying. We do have the elevators and hangar decks, but what to do with them? Even if the pilots did not sit in their planes as they were lifted up, I think it'd be very cool to start your mission parked on the elevator as you're being lifted up, and see your whole squadron parked there on deck with engines running. I think only the biggest realism nazis would complain about something as cool http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

However like I said it really raises tons and tons of questions. I'm just really reluctant to say goodbye to working elevators because they're already there.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg

heywooood
04-06-2004, 07:37 PM
Luthier -

I am in awe.. shock and awe..

I definitely will be bending all of my mental acuity and turbulence in your general direction.. a purely futile and rediculous gesture I know but... Nevertheless (bending,bending,bendi..oh-oh..ow)

Seriously - that vision you have there -going up on the elevator as you describe - wow



http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

LEXX_Luthor
04-06-2004, 09:16 PM
Starting on deck is fine.

btw...will AI be able to takeoff from and land on carriers? ---I think so, if I had paid attention more...

Luthier:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>say if we start the player on the lower deck, and he's #11 in a 16-plane group taking off from the carrier.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gen_Strike
04-06-2004, 09:34 PM
Sounds good, will hook be automatic or on a key?
Will there be the possibility of wrecks on the deck?
A static object made of a/c with wings folded could be a good idea

RAF_SmokyDaBear
04-06-2004, 10:24 PM
Regarding the lifts, even if they're not used by AI at all and the carrier is completely empty otherwise, I KNOW that many online squadrons such as mine would love to use them.

It's not all heat-of-battle wartime operations- we do a lot of flying that can be as easily done with a beer in one hand.

Actually, we've constructed a series of very short in-the-field landing strips to simulate the kind of skill required for carrier landings. It's a great reward to park your plane next to the pub on an incredibly short strip and kick back to watch your mates try time and again to achieve the same.

Ah, to sit on the deck and even ride the elevators while you laugh at your buds' antics...sounds well-worth the effort to me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

heywooood
04-06-2004, 10:34 PM
Molsen Canadian? St.paulie Girl? ahhh nothing tastes as good as a Girl..http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.. so ?

Whats the Best Trap Juice..?

Fosters? Guiness? whats your Landing fluid?
You need hydraulics to smooth things out once in a while,right?

ckur
04-06-2004, 11:25 PM
Just a few notes about the elevators and hangar decks. The planes on carriers were ready on deck and pilot got in and took off. The only time he taxied on take off was if it was going to be a catapult launch. In landing if he caught a wire, the barrier was lowered and he taxied to bow section of the ship, directed by deck controller. When he had parked his plane the deck handlers took it below or re-armed it. So the pilot did not get a lift ride in his cockpit.

So Thats why I'd go with on deck take-off and landing. Off course there should be other planes on deck to make it more real.

GAU-8
04-07-2004, 02:38 AM
im mixed up

i havent seen other posts discussing this, maybe i missed a thread.

how is catching the wire going to be modeled?
1. by only pacific based aircraft?
2. all aircraft no matter the theater?
3. only aircraft equipped with tailhooks?

part of me says"fantasy" is cool, with any aircraft.. but another side tugs at me and says "only A/C equipped with arresting hook shoud do this"

the reason i ask is because the inclusion of AEP/PF aircraft... what if were in a fantasy server with yaks or 109s in the pacific. would us non ******s have to land at well....LAND?

either way doesnt really bother me... just wonderin.

T_O_A_D
04-07-2004, 02:54 AM
Sounds cool luther but if you do all the elevator stuff then we might aswell make Oleg have working ground crews moving and guiding our planes on normal strips too. Refueling the whole works.

I would be satisfied with deck starts and landings.

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RAF-Blackace
04-07-2004, 05:26 AM
S!

I was aking questions thats al, i fully understand the complexities and problems of deck lifts and i seroiusly doubt it would be implemented.

What should definatly be implemented is the LSO. In CFS2 we used to put VASI lamps on the carriers for rough weather approaches, this worked well. I even biult a mission where the approach was effectivly blind, no navy in the world would allow a landing in the weather i created in CFS2, but it was interesting to fly an ILS approach to the carrier and see the deck right in front of you only 5 seconds from touchdown.

Some kind of LSO or radar or VASI/ILS system should be included in the carrier ops. The FB engine already has ILS on the He-111 all beit rudimentary.

Please dont leave us with no landing aids whatsoever for the carriers, you simply cant believe how much carrier ops will excite people once they try it in a hellcat or corsair.

It would be great to keep it historic, if an LSO or light VASI system is implemented it would be near as damn it WW2 for sure.

Sly_401RCAF
04-07-2004, 06:29 AM
Hi Guys
It would seem that the lack of space on a carrier is gonna limit some of the options available to us....
Maybe the answer is to have co-op 's start on the flight deck lined up and ready to go (as is the case in FB where you are lined up on the runway)
And in DF mode you start at the bottom of the elevator shaft and are automatically raised up to deck level and moved to the launch position ( this would aleviate the problem of people entering a DF server and sitting in a position that blocks off anyone else that enters)
Perhaps some kind of automatically applied routine on entry, could alleviate any probs....is such a subroutine possible?

Could the "on deck" taxi, the elevator ride and hanger parking could be made into a executable routine by a keypress?

S~ Sly

CyC_AnD
04-07-2004, 08:08 AM
Hi, im not pacific fan or maniac, but im sim maniac espesially as real as it can get. So to carriers i have 2 wishes (not only with carriers)
1. Make planes heavier, espesially on the ground, deck, so they wont bounce like beach balls.
2. Make planes harder to blow out to milion pieces. I would like to see crashes on carriers with even blows but planes in fire and cut to few pieces not a puff and nothing left. If it would be possible to make blows aircrafts and still have them in 5 pieces (fuel tank explode behind pilot, tail flies into one direction rest of plane into onother...).

I would like to see that wind has a matter in a sim (not only in start, when you are blowing to side), but i dont know for how much you can do this in il2 engine.

Wish you good luck in this project!

CyC is my new home!

aminx
04-07-2004, 12:13 PM
MOVING PLANES DOWN IN LIFT, SERVICE AND BACK UP
------------------------------------------------ my idea is that only one plane really goes down and that is the players plane.
All the others in group can be numbers on the briefing board and same going back,
When back on deck you find them there in formation ready to take off.
when down in hangars it should not be difficult to create a mess room for chat,briefing room with usual mission objectives and pilot career stats etc and then back of again ,with some background sounds like lift sound and intercom.
cheers
aminx

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/554.jpg

Archer_F4U
04-07-2004, 01:06 PM
I'm not certain about the IJN or RN, but from several accounts of pilots from WWII and post-WWII everything I've read indicates that the crew spotted the planes to launch positions and then the pilots left their ready room and went to the flightdeck, got in their plane and ready for take off, started engines etc. After landing the accounts I've read indicate the plane would land, get the wire removed from its tail hook, taxi forward of the crash barrier and then into a position on deck, chocked, engine shut down etc. I've seen some mention of getting out of the plane after it was shut down and some mention of waiting until recovery was complete.

Personally, I think if the elevators are going to move it would make the most sense to have it in a cut scene. When you're in your plane it's spotted on the flight deck and ready to go.

Gen_Strike
04-07-2004, 02:09 PM
Would be nice to have small escort carriers aswell as large fleet carriers, more challenging landings, start on deck always

Lancelot_ecv56
04-07-2004, 04:30 PM
Well, here is my idea:

ONLINE COOP:

1- Take off: ALL Planes (AI and human) start on the deck, with engines on or off. If engines on already, they are gradually moved to their take of position without any control of the pilot over the plane. Same way its implemented on FA-18 Super hornet of janes.
You take control of the plane, when its in position for take off.

If you start with engine off, once the engine is on you loose control of the plane (you can move everything but nothing will happen), and the planes will gradually and automatically be moved to the take-off position.
You retake control of plane when its in position for take off, and u wait for signal, from radio and/or deck crew member.

First plane in the line, will always start on the take off position, waiting the take off signal.

If its possible, see carrier pesonel doing signals, even if you don't interact with them, you see them moving, and when you have control of plane, see them do the rolling signal.

2- Landing: All aircraft land gradually one after another. Once you land succesfully, you turn the engine off, and automatically plane is moved to the side of the carrier, where you can see but you can do nothig. Once you turned engine off over the carrier, its over, you can't take off again.


ONLINE Dogfights:

1- Take off: you start in the air with full throttle and flaps on take off, like if you just had took off.

2- Landing: like in coop, once engine off, aircraft moved to the side, and 20 secconds later, if the player didn't hit "refly", his aircraft automatically dissapear, and he has a camera view from the carrier.

3- Carrier deck obviously will be always empty.

Unfortunately, in dogfights, you can't have people landing on the carrier and at the same time have aircrafts spawning in the middle of the deck for taking off.
I think that here a compromise we'll have to be made, and we all have to accept it.


OFFLINE (Single Player):

1- Take off: you start on the elevator and moved to the deck, where the rest of your flight is waiting, with engines starting or already on. You also have, if possible, moving crews on the elevator and deck.
You are moved to the take off position, always without control of the aircraft, once its your turn in the flight to take off. On take off position, hear message on radio of start engine, you do it, and wait for take off signal (crew member and/or radio message), and up, u are clear to go http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Landing: same way as coop, but this time, if you want, once engine is off, the plane is moved to the elevator and taken down to the hangar. If player keeps engine on, he can always take off again with what he have left, but if he doesn't kill the engine, the rest of the planes don't land and keep turning until the player either take off again or shut down the engine.


In resume, there are three scripted triggers. Fisrt trigger its actioned with starting engine, that make your plane move to take off position for take off.
Another its when player take off and moves from the "take off position", which activates the first trigger again for the next player in line.
And a thid one for landing, that when player land and is over the deck, he turns the engine off, and the trigger is activate moving the player's plane away from the landing area on the deck.


Also, with this, a compromise have to be make, and that is if there are 25 players on the deck, waiting for taking off, the last one will have to wait, lets say 10 to 15 minutes ( hopefully less if the other don't fool around and keep their engines off or dont take off once they are in position) for being moved to the take off position. Its a compromise i would happilly make. If players want to save all that time, the mission builder will have to make that all the planes, or some of them, start already in the air.
But i want to have the possibility that everybody take off from the carrier, even if that cost 15 minutes of waiting for my turn, and doing nothing but see the others take off.
I beleive that only squadrons will wait all that time, the rest will make missions with the planes already in the air, or with less aircraft on the carrier deck.

Offline missions, only need to have its flight waiting on the deck, maybe with a seccond flight if you want. Other flights of the mission may well be already in the air. Something not far from what we already have today on FB.

And i'm tired of writing "take off"!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Hope u understand, and didn't get bored.

Si hay que huir, YO PRIMERO!!!

Lancelot_ecv56
04-07-2004, 04:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lancelot_ecv56:
1- Take off: ALL Planes (AI and human) start on the deck, with engines on or off. If engines on already, they are gradually moved to their take of position without any control of the pilot over the plane. Same way its implemented on FA-18 Super hornet of janes.
You take control of the plane, when its in position for take off.

If you start with engine off, once the engine is on you loose control of the plane (you can move everything but nothing will happen), and the planes will gradually and automatically be moved to the take-off position.
You retake control of plane when its in position for take off, and u wait for signal, from radio and/or deck crew member.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I splitted engine on or off, because the developer have to decide if they implement it with engines off or on, in this case.

Si hay que huir, YO PRIMERO!!!

JG7_Rall
04-07-2004, 06:07 PM
Please only let planes with tailhooks land on carriers, and please allow us to toggle the hook's position so we can do touch and goes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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heywooood
04-07-2004, 06:14 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
Please only let planes with tailhooks land on carriers, and please allow us to toggle the hook's position so we can do touch and goes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This is absolutely critical IMO

Bruiser21
04-07-2004, 08:45 PM
My two cents worth - keep it simple and don't cater to those who want to taxi all over creation.

99% of all flight deck movement by aircraft is done without the engine running,and a plane captain sitting in the cockpit hooked to a tow tractor. About as exiting as watching paint dry.

The only time the aircraft taxis is from start up spot to cat, or out of the landing area to shut down spot. I know what I'm talking about because I've made 910 carrier landings during a 31 year career as a Naval Flight Officer flying A-6 Intruders.

Aircrew are hardly in an aircraft while on an elevator run...again it's the plane captain who sits in to release the parking brake and keep the hydraulic accumulators charged. Why waste programming time on something rarely ever done in reality?

On a straight deck carrier I imagine it was even less taxi time - land, then taxi forward to shutdown, and launch from your start up position.

Items I'd like to see included -

Wing fold, and hook select (up or down)

Large maps - hey it's the Pacific, so put lots of miles of ocean area to work.

Real Navigation tools - don't use a letter-number grid system, overlay the maps with Lat/Long, and make compasses point to Mag North

And for Pete's sake, get rid of that metric stuff - knots and feet (well you can put metric altimeters in the Japanese planes)

Cheers!
RAF_Bruiser

RAF662 CFSG

Bearcat99
04-07-2004, 09:06 PM
So far Lancelot has the best idea IMO... That would be sweet... it would also save a lot of time. If someone crashed trying to maneuver to the cat it could ruin a Coop for sure. With the AI taking it from the hanger deck to the cat it eliminates all that stuff.... and it would be nice to be able to sit in the pit and still have the AI do its thing. I was on a carrier.... working with A-7s http://cv41.org/images/va22.gif
and the pilot got in his plane on the line (on the flight deck NOT the hanger deck) and was towed to the cat a lot of times. Sometimes depending on where the planes were..they would be lined up diagonally behind the island a bit so they could just power up and pull out do a quick 120-135 degree turn and proceed to the cat. There wasnt a lot of movement by the pilot once he landed either... he turned away from the flight path and the plane was taken over by a brown shirt.... at least thats how it was in the 70s. This thread is good though..and there were launch and recovery positions on the flight deck from what I remember. I agree.... only planes with tailhooks that actually did carrier landings should be allowed to do so. This is so promising......

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[This message was edited by Bearcat99 on Wed April 07 2004 at 08:16 PM.]

heywooood
04-07-2004, 09:09 PM
I agree - if its possible to prog. it that way - Lancelots ideas look really good.

LEXX_Luthor
04-07-2004, 09:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>keep it simple and don't cater to those who want to taxi all over creation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Finally, some sense here. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Thanks fellas/fellattes.

JR_Greenhorn
04-07-2004, 10:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
Please only let planes with tailhooks land on carriers...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Is it possible for some of the early war planes with slow landing speeds and short stopping distances to land on a CV deck? (Without arresting, that is)
I'm just curious.

Do you guys feel that any plane capable of the task should be allowed to take off from CV decks?

RAF_SmokyDaBear
04-07-2004, 10:14 PM
Any aircraft should be able to try to take off from a carrier, as well as land. B-25's obviously took off from them, so there's no reason to limit the aircraft selection.

In CFSI, all sorts of aircraft were landed on the Ark Royal- no tailhooks there.

You give us a carrier, and you can be damned sure we'll try to land everything under the sun on it, tailhook or no. We'll also be sorely dissappointed if the programmers try to stop us. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

luthier1
04-07-2004, 11:03 PM
Those weren't run of the mill B-25s, they were spcifically modified for the Doolittle raid. A regular bomb loaded B-25 couldn't take off from a carrier deck.

But other than that, most lighter planes should take off from a carrier all right. Just look at some photos of carrier ops - there are often planes parked almost all the way to the conning tower and they're still taking off - and we're even talking SBDs and not fighters.

Landing however is a whole different affair. Especially if you consider that most of the pilots historically had to land on decks with aircraft parked at the other end. So not using the arrestor hook was really out of the question for them.

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg

Fliger747
04-07-2004, 11:33 PM
I'll agree that not much taxing is done on a carrier deck, though for instance in CFS2 that's what you are stuck with.

In WWII nearly all plane spotting on deck was done with a small army of "plane pushers". The aircraft were light enough for this to work.

At the end of a practice session of takoffs and landings I'll usally spot on one of the elevators and secure the aircraft, feels a bit more like the end of a flight. Besides on deck is one of the few times you get to really admire the beautiful jobs done on these aircraft.

RAF_SmokyDaBear
04-07-2004, 11:52 PM
Of course there's realism to consider, and missions, online and off, should naturally reflect as much realism as possible.

There's also fun to consider, however. You'll deny a lot of fun if you deny us free reign (within limits) over carrier ops and the option to land (or attempt to land) whatever we wish. There should definitely be an option to clear the deck for online flight.

EmbarkChief
04-08-2004, 09:53 AM
Just a thought... Why not use 2 Carriers online, one for takeoff, one for landing.

Harry_M
04-08-2004, 10:07 AM
Given the difficulty, makes more sense to have all aircraft initially spawn on the deck, with probably a max of 8 at a time, set by mission design. spawning in the hanger and then riding up seems just too complicated. For a co-op you'd just have to set a delayed spawn time for the AI planes so the deck is clear for the next wave, same as taking off from a base in FB.

On landing the AI aircraft simply drive onto the elevator and park and then either de-spawn or they are lowered out of sight and despawn. This would only work with AI aircraft. The player(s) can park their AC forward of the island, would get crowded with a full co-op all with the same carrier to land on but seems a reasonable compromise. Provide at least 2 carriers in the mission and plenty of room for the humans to park.

Ketalar
04-08-2004, 11:50 AM
In addition to Lancelot's suggestions:
Wouldn't it be possible to program a function to "call the ball"? What I imagine is this - allow both take off and landing on one carrier, players online take off in the order which they hit the Fly-button (the rest wait in line), players who wish to land hit a Land-button (designated through controls) that gives them a designated time window with a clean deck (say 10-15 seconds to prevent overuse...you'd have to hit it on the final) during which no planes spawn. If more than one player hit the Land-button at the same time they're put on hold and land after the first plane's landed and one plane's taken off ("You are number three to land, two taking off, please hold."). After each landing there should also be a set time (30 seconds?) before the player can take off again to let other players take off and/or land.

I don't know if this makes sense to anyone but me, but I feel it would make for an interesting scenario where players have to communicate (Player 1: "Missed approach...going around.", Player 2:"Coming in low on fuel without ailerons, request clear deck.", Player 1: "Roger 2, go ahead, holding.", Player 3: "Roger 2, will wait with take off.") and also give the possibility to "override" for a short time with the Land-button.

Clarifications? I can hardly understand what I just wrote, but it makes sense in my head.

Lancelot_ecv56
04-08-2004, 12:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruiser21:
Aircrew are hardly in an aircraft while on an elevator run...again it's the plane captain who sits in to release the parking brake and keep the hydraulic accumulators charged. Why waste programming time on something rarely ever done in reality? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree and knew that the pilot jumps to the cockpit when the aircraft is ready to fly, but since Luthier said they had working elevators and hangars, and they wanted to do something with them, but didn't know what, with that in mind i thought about give the single player a little tour around the carrier watching frm the cockpit, even if it was unrealistic. It's the only thing i thought could get some use of the hangars and elevators, beside damage model of the carrier, for pilots. Even if it was a little unrealistic.
For me, like you, i thing its better keep it simple, and i would make the single player start on the deck with engines off, waiting the signal for take off after he start the engine.

Otherwise i don't see any practical use of the elevator, and less in a multiplayer environment, where things get more complicated and one player (with good or bad intentions) could ruin and/or delay an entire flight.

Si hay que huir, YO PRIMERO!!!

Lancelot_ecv56
04-08-2004, 12:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EmbarkChief:
Just a thought... Why not use 2 Carriers online, one for takeoff, one for landing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also thought of that, but at least that you make carriers undestructible, you have problems if the landing carrier is sunk. Because pilots will want to land on the take off carrier, where you will have aircrafts spawning to take off.

With one carrier, that can be sunk, you could implemente that either player can take off anyway, even if there is noh carrier, but don't have where to land until the carrier is respawned, so they land on land or land on water and start to protect their carrier better.
Or also you can implemente that people have to choose other place to take off and land, until the carrier is respawned.

Assuming that you make that carriers respawn after some period of time, if they are sunk.

Of course we are talking of dogfights scenarios. Are we?

Si hay que huir, YO PRIMERO!!!

LEXX_Luthor
04-08-2004, 01:08 PM
No, if you don't want your carrier sunk, then you protect the dumb thing.

Maybe even the internet brownie point dogfighters will have to find more Teamlike behavior if they can't rack up internet points cos their carrier sunk.

LtBen
04-08-2004, 02:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by luthier1:
We're still working on carriers, so a lot of things are up in the air. You'll definitely be catching wires and landing on moving ships with plottable courses in FMB - and of course carriers will support more than one plane at a time. Not sure about LSOs or pitching decks though.

Not sure about elevators as well. All carriers are built with hangar decks and elevators, so at the very least you should be able to destroy those on enemy ships. However we just can't figure out how to get the elevators to work without being irritating. There are a lot of questions to answer - say if we start the player on the lower deck, and he's #11 in a 16-plane group taking off from the carrier. How do we get him to his take-off position? Start the other 10 planes in hangar deck as well, then make you sit there for half an hour as they're all lifted up after you and taxied to the take-off points?

Same for elevators on landings. There's also a matter of what to do with a rabid player who decided to taxi into an elevator shaft when its down in the hangar deck - we'd have to model the whole new part of FM for planes plumetting down a dozen feet on hard surfaces at low airspeeds.

In short, hangars and elevator decks raise a lot of new issues, many of which I'm sure we didn't even think of. So I can't tell you yet what we'll do - all I can say is that we're trying http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wern't there xtended deck carriers that kept a crapload of planes in the rear, wings folded? I think there was one in the movie Midway, the planes are lined up along the side of the carrier deck.

uhoh7
04-08-2004, 04:12 PM
another idea:

starting on deck is fine, but it would be nice to be able to use the elevators.

what if a player taxies onto the elevator and then uses the X command which would raise or lower it. Kinda like the attach/detach AC button, but used only if you are actually sitting on the the elevator.

Aeronautico
04-08-2004, 08:08 PM
At last, my 0,02 €uros, that have become worth more than 0,02 US$...

No taxiing in the hangar, and very limited on the deck: would be unrealistic, very complicated for gameplay and for coding. Period.

For take-off in COOP and single player, planes should be lined up on the deck just like they are in FB, or maybe a bit closer and in different lines. In DF, it would actually be cool to spawn on the raising elevator, and then taxi wherever we like to take off.

Moreover, in DF take-off and landing should be allowed on the same ship just like it is on FB airfields. It would be nice to scan the sky before taxiing to take-off position (letting the area clear for incoming landing planes), and to check and call the deck clear before landing.
Also, each side should dispose of several sinkable carriers, and when none would remain, make use of a single airfield on a little island located on a corner of the map.

On landings, after disengaging the wires and shutting the engine off, the external view should appear and the plane be automatically moved to the nearest elevator and disappear after being brought into the hangar.


Aero out

--------------------
Airplanes are now built to carry a pilot and a dog in the cockpit: the pilot's job is
to feed the dog, and the dog's job is to bite the pilot if he touches anything...

- Arlen Rens, Lockheed Martin test pilot

LEXX_Luthor
04-08-2004, 08:18 PM
No.

There should also be carriers ONLY dogfight maps.

There will finally be a *reason* for internet dogfighters to fly ~ bombers ~ Imagine that.

RAF-Blackace
04-09-2004, 03:54 AM
S!

Im not sure i agree with many of the posts here.

Carrier ops should be the responsibility of the pilots and any LSO system.

Landing and take off should be available, as well as NOT clearing the decks.

most of the fun in carrier landings comes from the fact that yous mates are down and you are on finals with 7 or 8 aircraft huddled in the best position they can, if you make a mistake you wipe the lot out.

Some if not Most landings were done like this at the end of the mission, they didnt wait to clear decks for the next guy, they simply got the plane out of the way.

I know there will be concernes about idiots hogging the decks or simply deliberatly crashing, or shooting at the landed planes. But thats unavoidable and those idiots should simply be booted from the game as we used to do in CFS1.

I want to land, I want to park up, and I want to watch and teach others how to do the same. I dont want to be respawned deliberatly back into the air.

I want a pilot to be able to pass his carrier award, this in the US involved doing 6 consecutive take offs and landings without incident.

How can this be done if he is simply respawned in the air.

I can understand the respawn issue is a problem, but im sure there is someway round it.

Also i agree with my pal SmokydaBear. Whatever you allow we will try to land anything on the carrier simply to see if we can.

I suppose the bottom line is i would like carrier ops to be as similar as possible to what we had IN cfs1 or even 2. except it should and can be done much better using the FB engine. I simply cant agree on letting the game control the pilots as far as respawns or clearing the deck is concerned.

I can see that the LSO idea is not generating as much interests from ubi as i had hoped, that is probably because they consider it too difficult at present. But i want to say it isnt, a simple Lamp on the end of the carrier would suffice, make it visble at the approach angle and invisable out of it. In CFS2 we used a white and red light flashing to show th correct approach angle, we simply dont need to go into modelling humans with flags to have an LSO that works. Im certain this can be done.

Tully__
04-09-2004, 11:36 AM
A consequence of carrier take-offs in coops has just occured to me - no more queue jumpers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Salut
Tully

Aeronautico
04-09-2004, 11:47 AM
Sorry, but didn't mean to clear the whole deck!
I just meant to be sure the landing area is clear.

--------------------
Airplanes are now built to carry a pilot and a dog in the cockpit: the pilot's job is
to feed the dog, and the dog's job is to bite the pilot if he touches anything...

- Arlen Rens, Lockheed Martin test pilot

BSS_Vidar
04-09-2004, 02:00 PM
There's no need to "Call the Ball" while in the groove on a WWII carrier. The Freznel lens (meatball) system wasn't emplemented until the early '60's. Up to then, LSO's used padals during the day and lamps at night. They also wore an orange jump suit with reflective tape sewed in that went virticlay from both ankels to the head, and another strip that went straight across the chest from one wrist to the other. The chest was the reference point for the padals on weather you were high or low on the glideslope during the approach.

As far as clearing the deck of aircraft behind you, the Blacksheep are real pros at this. We can land 6 planes from the "Carrier Brake" in 90 seconds. We have a system of radio calls to keep all the pilot's Situational Awarnes (SA) in the landing pattern at it's peak.

Some examples:

Inbound for the Carrier Brake
Braking at the Bow
Spining it
Braking now-now-now
Downwind and dirty
Abeam
At the 90
Final
Clear Deck
Foul Deck
Wave off
Bolter-bolter-bolter!!!

There are more diciplines involed, like maintaining specific pattern altitudes for traffic separation, as well as specific airspeeds in the pattern so you don't run up someones tailfeathers and screw up the patterns spacing.

For scoring purposes, wave-offs are divided into Technical Wave-off, and Foul deck Wave-off. We keep a "Greenie Board" just like real Navy and Marine squadrons to track pilot efficiency and announce the "Top Hook" based on best "Boarding Rate" every quarter.

If the landing pattern is full, we use the Spin Pattern at 1,200 ft. The Carrier Brake pattern is at 800 ft, and the landing pattern is at 600 ft.(ref.USN CV NATOPS). The Spin pattern is used to "Hawk" the deck for an opening in the Carrier Brake pattern. The Air Boss/LSO(designated to be only ONE pilot per CQ session) gives calls to "Charlie" via callsign i.e."Vidar Charlie", or a "99 Charlie" for all aircraft to press inbound for the carrier brake. (again, as per CV NATOPS)

You ask how did I get my hands on a USN CV NATOPS manual? I'm a retired Navy flyer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

The Blacksheep will be holding sessions to teach CV NATOPS to anyone, or any squadron that wishes to learn it. If you can't talk to us, you won't be allowed in the pattern for obvious reasons, so Teamspeak will be needed.

www.teamspeak.org (http://www.teamspeak.org) Load the client version. The IP and pw will be issued to interested parties.

Here's our CQ/Formation Guide if you wish to look it over: PRACTICE your Form flying now! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

http://www.blacksheep214.com/cq/cq.htm

CQ is the most fun and demanding flying you'll have without pulling the trigger... Trust me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

BSS_Vidar
Blacksheep CO

[This message was edited by BSS_Vidar on Fri April 09 2004 at 01:55 PM.]

VMF-214_HaVoK
04-09-2004, 04:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
Please only let planes with tailhooks land on carriers, and please allow us to toggle the hook's position so we can do touch and goes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~nate.r/357AndersonandYeager.jpg
_"Son, never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll let you know. If he isn't, don't embarrass him."_
Badges!? We don't needs no stinkin' badges!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im with Rall 100% on this idea. Glad you posted these points.
=S=

http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/images/hellcat_head_short.jpg

BSS_Vidar
04-09-2004, 05:36 PM
Double ditto on that one.
I agree with Rall. The last thing I want to see is someone trying to trap in a B-24 like some do in CFS2.

BSS_Vidar

Aeronautico
04-09-2004, 07:09 PM
But, do you really doubt the hook will be implemented 100%? Com'on... we're talking about IL-2 here!

The other planes can try, and am sure some could and will still land in one piece. Not a B-24 though... [http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif]

A.

--------------------
Airplanes are now built to carry a pilot and a dog in the cockpit: the pilot's job is
to feed the dog, and the dog's job is to bite the pilot if he touches anything...

- Arlen Rens, Lockheed Martin test pilot

Ruy Horta
04-10-2004, 06:29 AM
never mind

[This message was edited by rhorta on Sat April 10 2004 at 05:37 AM.]

SKULLS_Exec01
05-27-2004, 01:57 PM
On this carrier elevator issue - Why its not the same as everyone getting a ride, but what about this:
First all planes at the beginning of the mission start below deck, then the #1 plane taxi's into an area in front of the elevator(a painted box on lower deck) once the plane stops there for a length of time (say 30 seconds or a minute) the elevator lowers and this #1 plane taxi's onto the elevator as all other pilots watch from their planes.
Then once the elevator stops at the top - Bingo ALL planes are moved(magicly)above deck to their take off positions and fly off normally.

Same thing on lands, once all down the last plane (or who ever is closest to the elvator) moves on to the elevator and waits same amount of time, then that plane is brought down to the lower deck by elvator. Once it stops at the bottom, then all planes are brought below deck -
AND after this is all done - maybe they are refueled and rearmed (just an optional, everyone always wants this)
anyway - not a perfect solution, but all pilots can watch one bird go up and down and still not have to wait 30 minutes till all get the slow ride to the top... just my 2 cent!!!
~S~
PS- Sorry if this was brought up already

ucanfly
05-27-2004, 02:52 PM
Lot of good suggestions.

My concurrence:


1) On deck plane is AI controlled so many seconds after landing (ike Janes F18) and till before takoeff position.

2) Can spawn with elevator start so that you are already in elevator on hangar deck and then use elevator to move up to flight deck (AI controlled). No waiting in hangar.All may spawn from elevater or flight deck. First come first serve. Elevater animation should take no more than 10 seconds till plane(s) is disembarked. More than one plane on elevator possible.

3) Tailhooks must be used or plane will not catch wire. This will prevent any planes without tailhooks from landing on carrier, also adds realism.

4) Animated LSO on deck would be very cool. Idea for LSO visibility enhancement: How about toggleable icon symbols so that the LSO commands can be seen from far away? Simplified graphics in the icon would be used until within a certain distance.

e.g. in bright red overlaying LSO position on deck . Doesn't have to be ascii characters BTW.

o *
|/
/|
*

*
\o
|
|\
*


* *
\o/
|
|


X
/o\
\|/
|

Aah heck I can't get this thing to accept space characters. Well you all get the idea I hope.

[This message was edited by ucanfly on Thu May 27 2004 at 02:05 PM.]

GT182
05-27-2004, 03:47 PM
Maybe AI could automatically unfold wings at the start of a Coop or DF if on the hangar deck and AI'd to takeoff. But players should have keys set for it too once they land.

"GT182" / "vonSpinmeister"
www.bombs-away.net (http://www.bombs-away.net)
"Fly to Survive, Survive to Fly"

Tater-SW-
05-27-2004, 04:34 PM
Lancelot's ideas are great, along with a few of the other ideas in here.

Most of the time the pilots showed up at the flight deck, I'd expect the plane to be spotted on deck already. I think a hanger ride is for the crew chief on a ww2 CV.

tater

LuftLuver
05-27-2004, 05:49 PM
Animated, working LSO is a must just like the tailhook and folding wings.


Ucanfly wrote:

o *
|/
/|


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
"All your bases are belong to us."

Latico
05-27-2004, 08:31 PM
Here's an idea I haven't heard anyone mention.

How about the Dev's make the carriers operatable by a human player. That way he can cordinate all flight ops around the Carrier Group. Give the human player a radar scope he can watch to moniter all air traffic within 50 miles.

By allowing a human "skippers/flight ops officers" for carriers this could get quite interesting. They could possibly do the following task;

A) Manage all ATC in carrier airspace and on deck, including in/out going strike forces and CAP.

B) coordinate all Launch and recoveries.

C) Vector CAP to bogeys for intercept.


D) Make evasive manuevers in the face of enemy attacks.Just an idea anyway.

I don't think we need workable lifts. And I as for coordinating ops around the carriers, the main thing is good communications between pilots with voice comms. Players can do allot on thier own in regard to Carrier ops (or any flight ops for that manner) with appropriate communications and practice.

BSS_Vidar
05-28-2004, 10:17 AM
Now with that idea^^^^^^
That would be the perfect platform to teach from. As new members of my squadron come in, I have to fly them around the pattern to demonstrate it a few times. After that, I'm on the deck watching, directing, and critiquing their progress. To actually have an Airboss/Flight Officer possition to direct and "teach" from would be awesome.

BSS_Vidar

Latico
05-28-2004, 10:55 AM
Vidar,

Are you aware of VATSIM (Vertual Air Traffic Simulator) for MS FS2K and up? There is a vertual USN and USAF that uses this add-on for what I suspect are extremely realistic Operations.

VATSIM (http://www.vatsim.net) is a program that you can install on your computer that truns it into a a real time ATC radar screen that will cover a specific area. You then can manage the online traffic of all traffic that passes through your "center". MS FS users install a client version so that they can make use of the ATC service as they fly cross contry online.

I listened in on one of the commercial (vertual) centers one night (Atlanta Center) with RW to see what it was like. If I hadn't known better, I would have sworn that I had tapped into the real thing. All communications were very professional and realistic. If I'm not mistaken, I think they have an additional program for runway traffic control such as what you would have from the tower.

VATSIM was created for the vertual commercial airlines and vertual private pilots of MS Flight sim for online flying. The vertual military/paramilitary units are concidered special ops and generally use their own ATC system. BTW, they also have a vertual Coast Guard.

I don't know if VATSIM can be used with CFS2 or not, but I doubt it.

ucanfly
05-28-2004, 12:29 PM
[\QUOTE]Originally posted by LuftLuver:
Animated, working LSO is a must just like the tailhook and folding wings.


Ucanfly wrote:

o *
|/
/|


LOL I knew someone would poke fun at my ascii graphics. I was just trying to suggest an enhanced visibility option to overlay in addition to the animated LSO. The concern is that the animated LSO would not be seen at approach distances and that Luthier said they would not use the CFS2 method (LSO in a window). My thinking was that this icon would be a simple animated icon graphic for the LSO that would be visible at the necessary distances.

Of course another alternative is to just use the nav lights animation attached to the animated LSOs paddles. That might do it is well.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

[/QUOTE]

Baco-ECV56
05-28-2004, 02:34 PM
DF servers Take Off and landing Porcedures:

It is very simple: Leave it almos as it is in FB.
No I´m not crazy...

now on FB when in a DF server you allways respawn in the excat same place right?
Well, have 6 slots fordward of the Con Tower, and have a script that asigns a number in order to each pilot that has chosen that carrier for take off. When full have a sign display (simmilar to "please choose your base") That says "Carrier full please wait or select another spawn point."

When one of those 6 points is free, alow to recive new pilots on that carrier .

You start on the deck redy for take off, engine Off.

Now for landings: place some kind of barrier (it should not be har to do. Kind of a gigant wire taht stops the plane to 0 speed.instantlly.

Parking space: well thats the complicated part, jeje, but have it in the midle of the carrier. Between the landing and take off zones.

It is that simple.
you dont have pilots landing on each other now on runways right? And if it happens you kick´em rigth away and thats it.

Have a message by default (and you can allways add it yourself in the 10 slots we allready have in FB´s comms interface) that states that you have an e,mergency, and other pilots should let you land... No nned to enforce this by scripts, if a pilot doesn´t comply with an emergency call, you kick him and bann him. aggain simple and using the features FB allready has..

All you need is to implement the spawn places fordwar of the Conn tower, and a working barrier, and thats it.

Normally every DF pilot clicks refly seconds after he has landed... So there is no need for parking space in DF servers...

And if you want to teach or see your buddys, just stay in the air and watch them from there.

Or if devs have the time they can implement a spectator feature that places you in thae conn tower. kind of like a static camera.

No need for complex methods to regulate trafic or patterns... We have the tools we just need to learn to use them right.

Woodrow79
05-28-2004, 07:19 PM
Laticos idea is a great one. A dedicated onboard FCO.


The elevators should work, you should be able to taxi in the hangar deck, onto the elevator, and as Luthier said, see yourself come up to the flight deck. Preferrably at dawn as the sun is coming up! For U.S. carriers, no vasi or IFR landing system, as U.S. ships didn't have them. The Japanese did have a crude vasi system, so put it on their carriers. If you can't model something similar to the LSO in CFS2, but one that works well, then just leave it to the pilot's skills to land. In CFS2, once you get a feel for the glide slope and speed, carrier landings are not that difficult.

In other words, if you CAN do something, put it in the game. Give options to use or not use things like the elevator or hangar deck, but put them in. There is a line here between a simulator and an arcade game that is trying to be walked. Put in options to tweak the game either way. I think the whole point of having dynamic carrier battles is to sink the other guys carrier and/or other vessels, and defend your own. Online furballs should be handled as defend the flag, (or an option for such), except your are defending your carrier. After it is sunk or too heavily damaged, you lose.

Having furball respawns on the deck so you can just take off and dogfight aren't any different than respawning on the ground. What purpose does the carrier serve? It is just a floating airstrip rather than a land-locked airstrip. To do a carrier battle you need to have some reason to land, like repair your aircraft, re-arm, re-fuel, get another type of aircraft, etc... using carriers in furball dogfights isn't going to add much. You just get to take off from a 70ft cliff floating in the sea rather than from the ground or respawning in the air.

I think PF ought to concentrate more on making the experience of carrier ops and carrier based attacks and defense as it really was.
Put in the options for respawning as others have mentioned here, but include the detail that a SIMULATOR ought to have. If it is too much to get in the box on launch date, then patch it so those of us who prefer as close to reality as possible will have a reason to keep the game on our pc's. The videos I've seen of PF look incredible. If the game is too much like an arcade redundancy, something designed more for XBox or Playstation, I'll pass.

If you can do it Luthier, put it in the game and allow players to choose which details they want and which ones they don't want.


Woodrow

Tater-SW-
05-28-2004, 09:43 PM
woodrow speaks truth.

While I don't see a reason to taxi on the flight deck anywhere pilots didn't do it ALONE, I'm all for making as many things options as possible.

At any time, if you have the ability to do 2 options equally easily, and it's just a matter which to keep in, make them something we can get to in the FMB, or in a config type file. Even if it's some arcane vale, someone will make a guide, next thing you know the community has made a GUI to control it. Options, options, options.

tater

PS-I really think having to taxi, possibly blowing your own planes and ship up when in RL there would be crews moving it by hand with no chance of blowing things up is silly. But it'd be a cool option for making movies, etc.

PPS-I keep seeing shows over and over on the history channel, and on discovery wings with the crappiest animations I've ever seen. It strikes me there's a market for making virtual movies of engagements in IL-2/FB/AEP/PF/BoB for TV shows since they obviously strain for new material, and oleg's products can do a better job already, think what we could do with more tools...

Woodrow79
05-29-2004, 12:17 AM
I agree that taxiing on the hangar deck is something real pilots never had to do. I mentioned it as something that ought to just be in the game as Luthier had made reference to it. AI should handle moving planes around as they would have been by a crew, but if you've got a hangar and a usable elevator, I'd like the option of doing the whole bit from the cockpit every now and then.
As you mentioned Tater, my whole purpose is to get them to include all the things they are working on, at least as options.

Laticos suggestion of an onboard real human FCO could even be carried to a human LSO. Give the FCO the ability to move stations and get the view off the stern that the LSO has, and verbally guide planes in or use keyboard commnands to indicate too high, or to low etc...

I say it again though Luthier, put it in the game if you have it.

Woodrow.

IV_JG51_Razor
05-30-2004, 08:01 AM
I wonder if they couldn't impliment an outsideview of your aircraft only, as long as you're on the ground(deck), that would be available even if the host has "no outside views" selected. This would allow you to taxi on the deck as needed, unfold your wings without worry of striking another plane, or the island, and best of all, you could take screen shots of your landings!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif This could be just like the outside view you get when you bail out.

Razor
IV/JG51 Intelligence Officer
www.jg51.net (http://www.jg51.net)

"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgement"