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View Full Version : Constant roll to the right... why and how to get rid of it?



robert135
12-27-2005, 12:27 AM
I have a problem. Playing ANY plane in this game there is a constant roll to the right when there is no input on the stick.

Things I have checked and done.. The windows centering of my brand new joystick is flawless. The centering and response in the configuration screen is also flawless, the when starting any quickstart or otherwise mission with EVERY SINGLE QUIRK in the difficulty settings turned off... there is still a constant roll to the right.

I have checked the forums here, "TRIMMING" blah blah blah, with 40 million fanbois talking about trimming with absolutely no real detailed description, nor anything else... The joystick is not the issue at all, hell I even put the dead zone at max on all the pitch yaw and roll, and it still has this contant effect.

It seems to me to be a programmers wet dream, "hey lets make a gyroscopic effect due to the propeller" "yeah, that sounds cool"... I am a programmer so I can picture how it could go, but it really doesn't serve my purpose at all.

Ya see I am trying to get my father interested and aquainted with some of these games, and in a cessna you don't constantly have to fight the stick... so how do I get rid of this???

It seems like a very very common complaint.

Kuna15
12-27-2005, 01:03 AM
Well you got to trim http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.
If your joystick is working ok than there is nothing besides trim you can do.

Now some aircraft in game lack trimming surfaces (Bf-109 for instance lack rudder trim in FB 402) so you can not trim them.

Map your desired keys for trim and take off (you'll fight the stick during the take off a bit). Now when you have achieved your desired speed start to trim elevator, aileron, rudder... basically when your aircraft is holding course and altitude without your intervention (for the most part) that is good trimmed plane.
Now when you are finished with your flying and want to land, you should (especially) watch that elevator trim since it can give aircraft nose down tendency (again on some aircraft that is bigger problem than on others) and you can crash due to that.

Also about trimming; it matters how long you are holding trim key, you can hold the trim key or you can tap it.
Also not all aircraft have tendency to 'roll right'. P-38 being example; it is really steady during take off (counter - rotating props).

zoinksu52
12-27-2005, 01:25 AM
http://airwarfare.com/mediawiki-1.4.5/index.php?title=Basic_Flying:_Trim

go to external view and watch effects of trim while you are still on the ground for better understanding. then remap your keys so it makes sense.

robert135
12-27-2005, 02:51 AM
With so many options already in the game to allow people to turn off quirky features, this should be there as well... that way for true beginners they can get used to joystick controls, then as they improve and have better control, can turn on the other quirky details to get a more realistic experience flying and fighting.

That would be my hope, and it seems as if that is the desire of the designers to begin with the the diffculty system, unfortunately they missed this setting.

And trimming, bleh, having to either do some tedius manipulations of the keyboard, or buy a 60 to 100 dollar flight control system to make it easy, just seems rather extreme.

TooCooL34
12-27-2005, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by robert135:
With so many options already in the game to allow people to turn off quirky features, this should be there as well... that way for true beginners they can get used to joystick controls, then as they improve and have better control, can turn on the other quirky details to get a more realistic experience flying and fighting.

That would be my hope, and it seems as if that is the desire of the designers to begin with the the diffculty system, unfortunately they missed this setting.

And trimming, bleh, having to either do some tedius manipulations of the keyboard, or buy a 60 to 100 dollar flight control system to make it easy, just seems rather extreme.
You can select difficulty setting easily among easy, medium, realistic IIRC.

Trimming is important fun factor in flying. You don't need $100 peripherals to operate it. $5 keyboard will do it just fine.
Do you think you really wish your WW2 plane fly like FBW F-16 falcon?

Kuna15
12-27-2005, 04:03 AM
@ TC34 is right... I'm using only Cyborg EVO + Keyboard and I have managed to shot down some of the best players online.
Also there are quite number of regular players who do not trim their planes at all and they are among top ones online, so http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif...

robert135
12-27-2005, 04:06 AM
Don't get me wrong, I like the game, I personally can deal with all the trickyness of the settings and what not. But I am specifically trying to get my 72 year old father interested... he has limited experience with computers, and some experience flying, just showing him a couple battles on this peaked his interest, he even pushed me out of the way to give it a try (Very encouraging)... BUT it seems as if I need a different game to start him off with, while he appears to really like the idea of WWII battles, but the level of this game even with everything turned off really limits some availability due to the crazyness and lack of the ability to hold the controls steady... it was very discouraging for him... and that is not good.

I will try other planes tonight to see if there is even one, even a transport or something that can have a easy flight path.. we will see.

Thanks.

Kuna15
12-27-2005, 04:11 AM
OK then... I wont reccomend patch 401/402 to you then, because planes are more demanding in those patches than in patch 304. Sure you wont have few maps and few planes but there is still t0n of other stuff. And planes are easier to fly on full difficulty settings... many regulars were amazed when 402 was introduced (me among them). It was quite tough but we adopted (http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

You got two option either go for easier settings or go for patch 304. If that doesn't work there is not much you can do about it.

TooCooL34
12-27-2005, 04:31 AM
I didn't know it doesn't go away even in easiest setting. That's my fault.
I think you're right. Some people need this option of removing torque & trim.

ploughman
12-27-2005, 04:47 AM
I had that for years, then I calibrated my joystick.

Feathered_IV
12-27-2005, 06:00 AM
I just popped the CD case under the right leg of my table. Works fine for me.

WWSensei
12-27-2005, 06:17 AM
Option 1) Turn off Torque in the difficulty settings.

Option 2) Also, to counter excessive roll you would first trim opposite rudder. By that I mean a roll to right will be countered by left rudder trim. Do this until the roll is gone or at least the little ball in the Turn/Bank indicator is centered when you are flying wings level.

If it is really excessive than a tap or two of left aerilon trim as well.

RS.Wedge
12-27-2005, 07:56 AM
I had this problem also. As soon as I would take off the plane would immediately roll to the right and I would have to counter with the stick by rolling to the left to keep the plane level until I trimmed enough to where I didnt have to apply the left pressure on the stick. I thought to myself that this isnt right so I recalibrated and also checked the hardware settings with in PF to make sure everything is ok.

Now when I take off I dont have that extreme roll to the right. I still have to trim, but nothing as extreme as before.

CRSutton
12-27-2005, 10:25 AM
Are you using a Saitek stick? Is the roll really pronounced or is it just a very slow roll? If it is a very slow roll, then yes, like said here before it is just a matter of adjusting trim. The new patch has made a lot of adjustment to the effects of torque and such. Do some searching here and you will find some good posts on the subject.

Now, if your plane is rolling to the left so that you can barely control it and you have a Saitek Evo stick then you may have to load the latest drivers for it. There was a bug with the older driver and you had to recalibrate your stick every time you booted up. The new driver calibrates the stick automatically every time you use it.

Freelancer-1
12-27-2005, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by robert135:
I have a problem. Playing ANY plane in this game there is a constant roll to the right when there is no input on the stick.

It seems like a very very common complaint.

This was also a common complaint in WWII. Only they didn't have lightly sprung game controllers to expend a few ounces of force on. They were fighting Baseball bat size sticks that took two hands just to keep centered.

That being said, the fix really depends on what planes you're flying. Many early planes would drop the other wing as the prop turned the "wrong" way. Some plane have adjustable trim on all three axis' and some have none.

Almost all planes have rudder trim and you can use this to correct a wing drop to the point where it's not going to interfere with your dogfighting. If you trim, in your example, so that the skid ball is just to the left of center in level flight, it will relieve most of the problem.

Cheers

SS_Bubblehead
12-27-2005, 05:51 PM
You can easily rule out your stick input by verifying its center position under the hardware input section of the options menu. You can also verify and adjust the filtering and deadband.

One other thought is your power setting and propeller pitch setting. Since the new flight model was added these things are much more critical.

If you are not flying with complex engine management I recommend that you do. Much more interesting and fun. However, you will need a good joystick and rudder pedals, those twisty sticks just dont cut it.

So power and pitch are critical. If you are cruising in level flight at full throttle you will have tons of torque, that is just the physics behind a big prop moving lots of air, it will knock around your rear vertical stab.

At cruising speeds or econo cruise, 50% throttle is all that is needed. Also knock back your prop speed to around 80 to 95% depending on the AC. With this power setting you should fly straight and level with nearly all the planes in this sim. You should nt need to trim at all, maybe some nose down pitch but little else.

At high power settings, watch your turn and bank indicator, watch the ball for sideslip, and remember to "Step on the ball" (if you have pedals), with your rudder pedals, this will eliminate side slip and adverse yaw.

If you are a casual flyer or just dont have pedals you can always adjust your level of complexity for an arcade style flight model.
Thank god we have options.

robert135
12-27-2005, 10:15 PM
Ok each plane seems to have its own input quirks, and my generalization was based on like 3 aircraft and they all pull right... especially the freeking seafire or something, that thing has an insane roll right, others don't but that one definately does... no idea why it's so bad.

I think perhaps just the regular mustang, or a 1g-60 or what ever that semi bomber is to get him started will work. Fairly stable fligh characteristics... and he can even see the more familiar steering wheel style assembly.

Still wish I could just turn off that annoying roll though. Tell me does everyone get that on the seafire?

The corsair and F4F seem to have reasonable flight as well. Thanks.

Infamous_Troll
12-27-2005, 11:41 PM
And about a cessna trying to roll, actually, they do. Much more than you might think. Especially on the pitch and yaw axis. The first thing on almost every single emergency checklist for those planes are, you guessed it, trimming your aircraft for a certain airspeed and heading. Smaller planes don't usually have yaw or roll trim, but they need them sometimes. I've had it when I've been flying a cessna by myself and every 20 seconds or so you'd have to yank the stick to the left and push down a hair just to stay on your VOR radial. and that's after pitch has been trimmed. That's why twins with counter rotating props are really superior airplanes to any single. They are much easier on the pilot (provided he knows emergency manouvres) and if the vibrations are calibrated, they pilot will have much greater stamina than if not.

That's an airplane with a 160 to 300 horse engine. Imagine the roll torque of an engine 10 times more powerful. Also those planes will have a higher wing loading and that will also change their performance. That's one of the reasons why most mustang pilots enjoyed flying the P-38 more than the mustang.

Roll trim is something that is a real (and really annoying) part of aviation that most people don't know or care to know.

I'll be honest, In my years of flying, it's been a real hassle.

Lingo

HotelBushranger
12-28-2005, 02:30 AM
What joystick do you have? I went through the exact same thing you appear to have. What I did (and still do - stupid Logitech), is go to Control panel, Game Controllers, pick the controller, Properties, then Calibrate. Should work, depends. Again, it matters what stick you have.

Chuck_Older
12-28-2005, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by robert135:
I have a problem. Playing ANY plane in this game there is a constant roll to the right when there is no input on the stick.

Things I have checked and done.. The windows centering of my brand new joystick is flawless. The centering and response in the configuration screen is also flawless, the when starting any quickstart or otherwise mission with EVERY SINGLE QUIRK in the difficulty settings turned off... there is still a constant roll to the right.

I have checked the forums here, "TRIMMING" blah blah blah, with 40 million fanbois talking about trimming with absolutely no real detailed description, nor anything else... The joystick is not the issue at all, hell I even put the dead zone at max on all the pitch yaw and roll, and it still has this contant effect.

It seems to me to be a programmers wet dream, "hey lets make a gyroscopic effect due to the propeller" "yeah, that sounds cool"... I am a programmer so I can picture how it could go, but it really doesn't serve my purpose at all.

Ya see I am trying to get my father interested and aquainted with some of these games, and in a cessna you don't constantly have to fight the stick... so how do I get rid of this???

It seems like a very very common complaint.

Hi Robert.

I am sorry you're having trouble, however, your description of the effects of the aircraft ("It seems to me to be a programmers wet dream, "hey lets make a gyroscopic effect due to the propeller" "yeah, that sounds cool"... I am a programmer so I can picture how it could go, but it really doesn't serve my purpose at all.") really tells me your knowledge concernign the phenomena you describe

To hear you tell it, the rotational force you're experiencing is an afterthought, perhaps conjured up by two 17 year old PC nerds who think airplanes are kewl, who toss this effect in sight unseen because they forgot it might be nice to have.

Fighter aircraft are high response-high gain machines. They are built to be operating at inherently unstable and perhaps dangerous levels of their flight envelope. Did you know, for instance, that in real life, if you were at slow speed in a P-51 and you opened the throttle too quickly, you could actually roll the aircraft about it's front to back axis ("roll axis")? With often deadly results?

I can appreciate your concerns (fun should be fun after all) but may I suggest that you investigate these things a little closer, with an more eye towards actual technical data and effects, and less towards the "I'm a programmer" realm? I mention this because the man who oversees and OKs all the stuff you see in this sim is himself an accomplished, honest-to-baby-Jesus Aeronautical Engineer, a talented one at that. The effects you're experiencing are not just tossed in blindly.

Also, the dismissal of the "fanbois" who tried to help you with trimming...is a big mistake. These are not fly-by-wire aircraft. In many cases, they had to be constantly trimmed when speed, direction, or altitude changed. I can confidently say this, after 30 years of reading, researching, and learning about WWII aviation. When they say a plane was "easy to fly", that was in their historical context. When they said it, it was the 1940s; to them, that *was* easy to fly- it was all they knew because their "easy to fly" and what we may think of as "easy to fly" are 60 years apart. Explianing all the hows and whys of trimming...is pointless, it would take a scholarly effort to explain all the factors and situations. happily, we can ignore that and just point out you've got to trim. In a nutshell- if you increase speed, you should (as a broad rule) increase lift (to a point). the other side of that coin is more obvious- slow down too much, and you can't fly (you lose lift by slowing down too much). Now, wing loading and area can effect this, as can drag coefficient and angle of attack, angle of incidence, anhedral or dihedral, wing chord, blah blah blah I'm getting bored with myself. but all you really need to know is:

Triiming is needed to counter those effects and keep the plane straight and level

Look in a P-40B's cockpit. See the instrument, dead center, that looks like a needle in the verical plane, and a groove with a ball in it in the (vaguely) horizontal?

Well that's exactly what it is, actually, your needle and ball. When that ball is in the middle of the track, and the needle is straight up and down, you're straight and level (or trimmed!). Real USAAC cadets had the mantra "Needle, ball and airspeed!" drilled into their heads. They used the rudder pedals, control stick, and throttle to keep the needle and ball centered- now that is a heavy workload, granted. Trimming takes that work away from you. Trimming is not a hindrance, it's a valuable tool- highest performance will be seen in a plane trimmed properly

Hopefully, all this trouble can be sorted out, and the sim can be enjoyable for you and your Dad..isn't there an option to turn off the gyroscopic effect, anyway?

In any case, take a look around, say, a P-51's cockpit. On the left hand side, behind the throttle...the trim dials are right here. They were there because they were needed, and they needed to be easily accessed...what can I say? real pilots needed them..lucky for you, the weight of two drop tanks aren't modelled apart from the rest of the fuel load and you don't have to select fuel tanks, and neither is having one drop tank 'hang up' and remain on the plane while the other falls away! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Imagine fighting the stick in THAT aircraft! It could, and did, happen

Even though these are old aircraft, they are still complex machines. As the sim has evolved, it has taken greater advantage of available technology.

In my opinion a good HOTAS (Hands On Throttle And Stick) setup is a must now for sophisticated flight sims. Saitek makes one, called the X-45 that personally I like a lot. It was about 70 bucks when I bought mine two years ago, prices must be less now, since they have released their newer model, the X-52. Although it doesn't have rudder pedals (rudder is, after all, a primary control input, just like the joystick) but instead uses a 'rudder rocker' under the throttle handle, it does the job well enough. With a HOTAS, you can trim constantly if need be, with small inputs, without using the control stick (this simulates actual pilot workload to a point), and without taking your left and off the throttle

But all I'm trying to say is, that unfortunately, a certain amount of torque-roll is to be expected from a high power engine (This is why your Seafire seems particularly bad!) in an airplane. "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction"...this is a known Law http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

the problem REALLY lies with the planes that have counter-rotating props (P-38), that still suffer from this...and absolutely shouldn't. This is a weakness in the sim engine, I think, but after all, it should be present-in one form or another, or in varying amounts- in a single propellor aircraft.

later on, efforts with "contra props" were experimented with- the single engine plane had two props on the same engine, one after the other. This is the same reason a helicopter has an anti-torque rotor, or else has two, counter-rotating rotors http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Hopefully, this is a bit more informative than the other 'trim your plane' posts you've read http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

VW-IceFire
12-29-2005, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by robert135:
Ok each plane seems to have its own input quirks, and my generalization was based on like 3 aircraft and they all pull right... especially the freeking seafire or something, that thing has an insane roll right, others don't but that one definately does... no idea why it's so bad.

I think perhaps just the regular mustang, or a 1g-60 or what ever that semi bomber is to get him started will work. Fairly stable fligh characteristics... and he can even see the more familiar steering wheel style assembly.

Still wish I could just turn off that annoying roll though. Tell me does everyone get that on the seafire?

The corsair and F4F seem to have reasonable flight as well. Thanks.
Spitfires do have quite a bit of torque roll...particularly on takeoff. This was a real problem experienced by Spitfire pilots and it was never truly solved. For instance the Seafire XV was banned from carrier use because its 2000hp (the Seafire III develops about 1300hp FYI) was causing torque rolls with inexperienced pilots. The game doesn't even fully model this...so be thankful http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I would turn off most of the features if you can. Turn off torque, wind, turbulence, and stalls to get started.

I would suggest flying aircraft that are more forgiving...as this game does model that. Try the:

P-38 Lightning
F4F Wildcat
F6F Hellcat
A6M Zero
Ki-43 Oscar
B-25J
A-20C
Beaufighter Mark 21

The P-38 is actually a great place to start if you're having trouble with the roll from torque. Why? Because the P-38 has two engines that spin in opposite directions to each other. This was part of the design of the aircraft (thank the designers at Lockheed for that) and it meant that the P-38 was very difficult to stall, needed virtually no rudder trim to counter the engine rotation, and could pull some incredible moves for an aircraft of its size.

This is not true of some of the other twins as they had two engines that spun in the same direction which did cause rolls to the right or left. But you can still have a go at aircraft like the Beaufighter Mark 21 as its very docile and stable...so it doesnt' roll much and it may be a great place to learn as its very forgiving (except if you seriously snap stall it) and fairly docile so it doesn't manuever very fast but its gentle when it does.

I'd say you and the people you're teaching could have alot of fun just flying aircraft like the Beaufighter on torpedo and strafing runs or the P-38 to learn some basic air combat without being subjected to some of the more twitchy single engine aircraft.

SeaFireLIV
12-29-2005, 09:20 AM
Tell me about it. Spits and seafires do have a bit of a pull. It never bothered me much with a twist stick, but when I got rudder pedals I couldn`t take off. But with a bit of trim and care on the rudder it gets easier...

But once you consider it`s the engine `torque` and the fact that the plane wants to spin against the engine it starts to make some sense... (I think that`s what it is).

Try an I16 for a shock too!

Chuck_Older
12-29-2005, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by robert135:
Ok each plane seems to have its own input quirks, and my generalization was based on like 3 aircraft and they all pull right... especially the freeking seafire or something, that thing has an insane roll right, others don't but that one definately does... no idea why it's so bad.

I think perhaps just the regular mustang, or a 1g-60 or what ever that semi bomber is to get him started will work. Fairly stable fligh characteristics... and he can even see the more familiar steering wheel style assembly.

Still wish I could just turn off that annoying roll though. Tell me does everyone get that on the seafire?

The corsair and F4F seem to have reasonable flight as well. Thanks.
Spitfires do have quite a bit of torque roll...particularly on takeoff. This was a real problem experienced by Spitfire pilots and it was never truly solved. For instance the Seafire XV was banned from carrier use because its 2000hp (the Seafire III develops about 1300hp FYI) was causing torque rolls with inexperienced pilots. The game doesn't even fully model this...so be thankful http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I would turn off most of the features if you can. Turn off torque, wind, turbulence, and stalls to get started.

I would suggest flying aircraft that are more forgiving...as this game does model that. Try the:

P-38 Lightning
F4F Wildcat
F6F Hellcat
A6M Zero
Ki-43 Oscar
B-25J
A-20C
Beaufighter Mark 21

The P-38 is actually a great place to start if you're having trouble with the roll from torque. Why? Because the P-38 has two engines that spin in opposite directions to each other. This was part of the design of the aircraft (thank the designers at Lockheed for that) and it meant that the P-38 was very difficult to stall, needed virtually no rudder trim to counter the engine rotation, and could pull some incredible moves for an aircraft of its size.

This is not true of some of the other twins as they had two engines that spun in the same direction which did cause rolls to the right or left. But you can still have a go at aircraft like the Beaufighter Mark 21 as its very docile and stable...so it doesnt' roll much and it may be a great place to learn as its very forgiving (except if you seriously snap stall it) and fairly docile so it doesn't manuever very fast but its gentle when it does.

I'd say you and the people you're teaching could have alot of fun just flying aircraft like the Beaufighter on torpedo and strafing runs or the P-38 to learn some basic air combat without being subjected to some of the more twitchy single engine aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure that the torque is gone from the P-38? My recollection is that it does exhibit torque roll, through some error