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geetarman
10-12-2004, 09:24 AM
I've started to fly the 51 with the K14 sight and I'm really impressed with this thing!

I have a few questions though that maybe someone can answer.

Apparently, this sight works by setting the range you wish the sight to operate at and then adjust the size of the pipper to, more or less, fit the type of a/c you are shooting at, at the range you selected. Once the a/c fits fully into the pipper, you are at the correct range for the type of plane selected.

When the gyro sight first comes on, the pipper is at a certain size. Does anyone know the range it is set at? 200 meters, 300 meters?

Additionally, I've read that the sight operates by placing the pipper on the target for 2 seconds. At that point, the gyro should stabilize and then MOVE to the proper position on the sight to score hits. At that point the pilot must take the additional step of bringing the nose of the aircraft in line with the target, evidenced by the fact that the pipper will center back into the middle of the windscreen. At that point, open fire and score hits.

Is this correct? I think many pilots have problems with the sight because, after getting it to settle, they simply open fire. If the pipper is not centered back into the middle of the sight, with the enemy a/c framed, you'll miss.

However, if you follow these steps correctly, you can't miss with the thing!

geetarman
10-12-2004, 09:24 AM
I've started to fly the 51 with the K14 sight and I'm really impressed with this thing!

I have a few questions though that maybe someone can answer.

Apparently, this sight works by setting the range you wish the sight to operate at and then adjust the size of the pipper to, more or less, fit the type of a/c you are shooting at, at the range you selected. Once the a/c fits fully into the pipper, you are at the correct range for the type of plane selected.

When the gyro sight first comes on, the pipper is at a certain size. Does anyone know the range it is set at? 200 meters, 300 meters?

Additionally, I've read that the sight operates by placing the pipper on the target for 2 seconds. At that point, the gyro should stabilize and then MOVE to the proper position on the sight to score hits. At that point the pilot must take the additional step of bringing the nose of the aircraft in line with the target, evidenced by the fact that the pipper will center back into the middle of the windscreen. At that point, open fire and score hits.

Is this correct? I think many pilots have problems with the sight because, after getting it to settle, they simply open fire. If the pipper is not centered back into the middle of the sight, with the enemy a/c framed, you'll miss.

However, if you follow these steps correctly, you can't miss with the thing!

Chuck_Older
10-12-2004, 10:15 AM
Yes and no

The sight doesn't care where the dot in the pipper is, it's simply where the gun convergeance is set from the sight's point of view, not neccessarily where your convergenace has been set to. A related point is that the wings don't have to be 'framed', that's just how you tell the range. The point in the middle of the pipper where the dot is is still going to be your striking point, in theory, so if you want to hit the engine, you'd better be able to frame the wings, but the dot should be on the engine, not the center of the aircraft

The K-14 seems to be 'preset' to about 150 meters. A point worth noting is that the gun convergeance won't change in flight as you reset the range on the K-14. I think some virtual pilots think this is how it works, but it doesn't at all.

geetarman
10-12-2004, 10:43 AM
Rgr Chuck. So it's set for about 150 meters. I imagine moving it out a few turns will take the sight to my convergence setting of 250 meters.

As to the other point, if I'm reading you right, once the center of the pipper is on traget and stablized, the pilot can fire and score hits despite the pipper not being centered into the sight via manuevering the nose of the plane. Correct?

Thanks for the comment and assistance

Chuck_Older
10-12-2004, 12:24 PM
Yes, once the target is framed by the sight, you are at the 'correct' range, provided of course your convergence is roughly the right setting.

So let's say you are following a Bf109 from about 8 o'clock, he is in a moderate right turn at high bank, and you have approximately 30* of deflection.

You have your K-14 set, and you are at your correct range.

If you put the pipper on the target so that the dot is in the center of the fuselage, and the pipper edges frame the wings, you should hit the aircraft where the pipper dot is, ie: center of the fuselage. But, to hit the engine or cockpit, you must move the dot on the pipper to those locations.

Same thing for a bomber if you want to hit an engine: set the K-14 up so the wings are framed, and put the dot on an engine. One edge of the pipper will not touch the plane at all, but the dot in the center of the pipper still should be the real target, in this case, the engine

Once you get the K-14 set, it's a regular gunsight that predicts deflection angle to a small degree.

I think a little confusion on that point exists because visually it's similar to a modern tracking reticle, that stays centered on the target, and that seems more correct to people's eye.

PBNA-Boosher
10-12-2004, 01:19 PM
The K-14 will not lock onto an enemy aircraft. You have to move the plane to move the pipper. The one thing the K-14 does is estimate relative to the sight itself where the bullets will go.

Chuck_Older
10-12-2004, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
The K-14 will not lock onto an enemy aircraft. You have to move the plane to move the pipper. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is 100% true, but I'm not sure where in this thread you get the notion either I or Geetarman thought that it was a case of the K-14 being a tracking computer. I mentioned that since it was visually similar to how a modern tracking computer looks, some folks may be confused about it's operation, maybe you misunderstood me, Boosher?

Resident_Jock
10-12-2004, 01:42 PM
Ah, but to lock on to a plane you would need a form of radar or IRST, which the K-14 equipped Mustang does not have. It is simply a gyro-stabilized gunsight. The pipper follows the estimated path of the bullets, not the plane in the sight.

LStarosta
10-12-2004, 02:16 PM
What you all don't know is that the K14 actually causes your bullets to home in on the enemy. True story.

Chuck_Older
10-12-2004, 04:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Resident_Jock:
Ah, but to lock on to a plane you would need a form of radar or IRST, which the K-14 equipped Mustang does not have. It is simply a gyro-stabilized gunsight. The pipper follows the estimated path of the bullets, not the plane in the sight. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is perhaps the most confusing post I have seen in some time.

You are responding to a point that was never made.

Has somebody editted a post you were responding to? Nobody has indicated the P-51 had any sort of tracking radar or the ability to lock on to a target. I think you may have misread something. I said that physically, the gunsight makes a visual effect similar to what many people might associate with a modern tracking computer, not that it had any of the features of a tracking computer. Perhaps you should re-read my post? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Howie A
10-12-2004, 06:19 PM
You learn something every day, I had no idea what the K-14 sight was, and I like it. Setting its range to my preferred convergence will take some trial and error.

I understand its not tracking radar but it does look quite sophisticated for a WWII plane. With my lack of knowledge I may have wondered http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Chuck_Older
10-12-2004, 06:43 PM
Howie-

there was radar in some late war P-51s, but it was tail warning radar.

here's more on the K-14, the most hyped and least understood aspect of Il2Sturmovik:Forgotten Battles, from an old post of mine:

************K-14 Gyro Gunsight***************

Here we go

First off:

Become familiar with how a non-gyro, standard gunsight works. I will be using some examples that assume you have an idea of how to use the gunsight, and how to set your convergence. I may tocuh on those two topics to illustrate how it relates to the K-14 gyro gunsight, but I will not go into great detail on those subjects; typing all this up is mo0re than enough typing for me.

First, assign some keys to your K-14 functions. I beleive the defaults are un-mapped, and they are for the bombsight.

Now. Take a look at the K-14. You will see something immediately: a list of planes around the perimeter of the body of the sight. Don't worry about that, we'll discuss how to select a plane, why, and when, or even if you should use the gyro feature. For now, just be aware of the ability to select plane types.

While in flight, cycle through the modes of operation for the sight:
fixed
fixed+gyro
gyro only

You will note that in fixed+gyro and gyro, there is a pattern of small diamond shapes on the gunsight glass, and it moves as you manuever. This is called your pipper. This is the gyro feature, obviously.

Remember the list of plnes from before? Cycle through them. Note that the pipper gets bigger or smaller depending on what plane you select. Note how that the bigger the wingspan of the plane selected is, the larger the pipper is. This is key. Remember that: the pipper is intended to match the visual wingspread of your target.

Now try something new: increase or decrease range on the K-14 while in fixed+gyro or gyro only mode. Note how the pipper smoothly gets bigger or smaller, similar to the function in which you select target plane type.

This is all the pipper control you have: resizing the pipper.

How does this all work?

OK. Let's say you are roughly 150 meters away from a Bf 109, on his six o'clock (directly behind him as he flies away from you). You turn on your K-14 to fixed+gyro or gyro only. At this range (150m), if you select 'bf109' from the list of targets on the sight, the pipper will frame the wings of your target if the dot is centered on the fuselage. This tells you that you are at the range that the sight is preset to: about 150m, more or less. What does this do for you? Well, if you now place the dot in the center of the pipper on his right wingtip and pull the trigger, if he does not manuever, you will get strikes on his right wingtip. Maybe not a lot, but that is also a function of convergence, which is where the bullets from your guns cross in front of your aircraft. If you set the convergence to 150m ahead of time, obviously, in this example I have given you, you will do more damage because a lot more lead will have struck the target.

This brings us to "why change the range on the K-14?" Well, maybe you don't like 150m convergence. You prefer 100m, or 300m. Well, now you set your convergence-there are several ways to find your convergence, including shooting at an enemy without the K-14 in fixed+gyro or gyro only, pausing the game, and then using the 'enemy view' to see if you are getting hits at the point where the bullet streams cross- and you fly a mission. Let's say you are in the same situation as the example previosuly mentioned, and you find that 300m is a good convergence for you.

You are behind a Bf 109 on his six. You now remember more or less how big the enemy plane looked when you determined that 300m was a good point for your convergence. You flip on the K-14 to fixed+gyro mode. You determine that you are approximately 300m away, based on your experience while setting convergence, and now you resize the pipper to roughly the correct size to frame the enymy's wings, when that enemy is selcted on your gunsight selector. Sounds harder than it is. You are using standeard techniques to determine convergence, the same for any other aircraft without the K-14. But now, you can make the pipper the right size. Once you know that size for that distance and for just one enemy plane, you can start to make very good estimated judgements on other sizes for the pipper for other aircraft. Let's say you don't run into a Bf 109, but instead it's a FW 190. Well, flip on the K-14 to a gyro equipped mode. You know that the FW 190 is slightly larger than the Bf 109, and has a wider wingspread. All you do is set the range for the pipper as above, Now select "FW 190" on the selector, and your are very close to being properly ranged for that aircraft, and at your convergence.

It is important to remember a few things:

1) all you ever do is change pipper size.
2) try to set range first. Sounds hard, but it's actually easy. It does take a little effort though. You will simply be cahnging the sight to this size automatically after a while.
3) the gyro pipper needs a second or two to 'settle' this is why you also have a fixed mode. Fixed+gyro is a great compromise if you can deal with the two recticles
4) do not try to constantly reset the K-14's pipper in combat for a 'perfect' frame of your eney's wings whwnever range changes! This is extremely hard and is not how the sight works. Set the pipper to the right size for your convergence, and then fire at the convergence. If you want, you can try to get some lucky hits on aircraft that are far way by increasing the range, but remember: you are now out of your convergence range. The rule of thumb is: fire only at convergence range, and set the pipper size to convergence.

One more thing: How can you use the K-14 to fire at targets not on the selector list?

Simple. Select a similarly sized aircraft. For example, if I wanted to size the pipper, at my convergence, at a P-47, I would think about the P-47's size. First, I'd switch on a gyro mode on the K-14. Next, I size my pipper to range (another good trick is to set your range in fixed+gyro, because you can compare the wingspread of the target in the regular recticle with the pipper), and after I am confident that the pipper is the right size for my range, I would select "FW 190" on the list: that is approximately the right wingspan for the P-47.

One good thing to always bear in mind: the sight will never tell you waht the range is. You tell the sight what the range is first. But you don't need to know range. All you do is compare sizes. First you recognise what size the pipper will be at what you beleive to be your convergence range. Then, set the pipper to that size by changing range. Now select the target aircraft, if you have done your homework and know how to tell ropughly how far an enemy is from you, when you resize the pipper manually by changing range to the proper size (so that the pipper's outline will frame the wings of the target), when you then select the target type, the pipper will be properly sized.

Sounds confusing. Let's look at it the other way around.

You should be able to set the pipper to the correct size to match your convergence range without a target nearby. The, by selecting a target from the list, the pipper will be the correct size for that target. It's not magic, it's just a little time spent setting a convergence range that works for you, and then remembering how big the target was when you did that. Then you change the pipper size to match that.

For example, you are flying a P-51D with the K-14. You see a Bf 109 and are on his six, directly astern. Select fixed mode. You close in. At your convergence range, whatever that may be, you open fire. You see many hits, and he catches fire and crashes.

Now, what you do is recall where his wings were in the fixed sight when you clobbered him. Were the wings just a tocuh shy of tocuhing the edges of your sight? Were they past the edges of the sight so much that the fixed sight's edge was in the middle of the wing? Whatever, doesn't matter, just remember that. Then turn the K-14 to a gyro mode, and manually change the pipper by changing range, so that the pipper mimics the size of the target's wings when you clobbered him. Remember that one tip about setting the pipper first with range.

Notice how I call changing the range "manually" changing the pipper sometimes? Setting the pipper size by changing range can be thought of as manually changing the pipper, while the aircraft selection feature is an automatic function:

set the pipper size for your convergence. I suggest using a Bf109 as the aircraft to learn this on, simply because it's the default setting on the K-14 and it makes things easier.

Once you set that pipper size, selecting another aircraft automatically makes the pipper the right size for that target's wingspan at your convergence range.

Next: "How can I use the K-14 if the target is broadside to me?" Well, the K-14 isn't perfect. It can't calculate high deflection well. That's why you have other modes of operation other than just the pure gyro only feature. But- if the target is not perfectly in front of you it doesn't matter if the wings don't look their full size because of your depth perception. The sight uses wingspan as an easy reference, not as a need to properly function. If you know your range, set the pipper to it, and select the correct aircraft, you will know already if the target is at the proper range, that's all you need. In a medium to low deflection shot, the gyro feature, if trained on the target for a breif moment, should accurately calculate lead for you, and where the pipper dot is on the enemy is where bullets will land if he doesn't manuver.

Do not rely on the K-14 in gyro mode. Many pilots in real life didn't care for it and used the fixed mode only. There is no rule that says you must use it, but a couple say don't use it in some situations. The K-14 is a good tool that produces results when used properly. It cannot do everything and needs to be properly set up to function. These is a certain amount of hype regarding this gunsight, and if used in the correct circumstances, will live up to that, in my experience. But if you have a 90* deflection shot, turn it off and use the fixed mode. Most of the time, I use it in fixed or fixed+gyro.

The Golden Rule of the K-14 in gyro modes is this: match sizes- pipper to wingspan, and at your convergance range.

Resident_Jock
10-12-2004, 11:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
This is perhaps the most confusing post I have seen in some time.

You are responding to a point that was never made.

Has somebody editted a post you were responding to? Nobody has indicated the P-51 had any sort of tracking radar or the ability to lock on to a target. I think you may have misread something. I said that physically, the gunsight makes a visual effect _similar_ to what many people might associate with a modern tracking computer, not that it had any of the features of a tracking computer. Perhaps you should re-read my post? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Beats me. Somebody said they thought the pipper locks on to planes and I said that's impossible.

WOLFMondo
10-13-2004, 04:06 AM
Thanks Chuck. Much useful info and probably should be added to the sturmovik essentials.

Bearcat99
10-13-2004, 06:30 AM
I set mine up to match my converence.. my convergence is set to 200m.

Chuck_Older
10-13-2004, 08:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Resident_Jock:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
This is perhaps the most confusing post I have seen in some time.

You are responding to a point that was never made.

Has somebody editted a post you were responding to? Nobody has indicated the P-51 had any sort of tracking radar or the ability to lock on to a target. I think you may have misread something. I said that physically, the gunsight makes a visual effect _similar_ to what many people might associate with a modern tracking computer, not that it had any of the features of a tracking computer. Perhaps you should re-read my post? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Beats me. Somebody said they thought the pipper locks on to planes and I said that's impossible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who? Could you quote the post? I can't find that part in the thread. Maybe somebody editted it out?

Chuck_Older
10-13-2004, 08:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
Thanks Chuck. Much useful info and probably should be added to the sturmovik essentials. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No sweat, glad to help

geetarman
10-13-2004, 11:54 AM
The sight is very usefull for dead six shots and those with a small degree of deflection. Not very good with servers having externals and the like as the enemy can "spot" you and start flipping across the sky.

That said, I did use it on a high speed pass from the front quarter of an enemy plane recently. The gyro stabilized quickly enough so that my snap shot partially hit home and I got him smoking!

That was enough to permanently move the initiative to me and I soon finished him off on a dead six shot.

Overall, though, it's not very useful against a hard manuevering aircraft.

f.ip2
08-02-2007, 04:01 PM
Hi Chuck

thank you so much for putting up the time to write everything down.

However I am still confused, well new to this game.

I understand what the convergence is. After reading maetrial about the Revi I assume in case you would be doing bomber hunts you want to set it at around 300, because the the plane beging inside the Revi from left to right means it is 300 meters away.

if you are on fighter hunt you can set it to 100
when the plane fits into the Revi it is 100 meters way. That I all get.

I assume you cannot change the convergence inflight.

What throws me off now is where can you find the list of the k-14 plane types. i only have keys to switch through the modes and incease decrease the pipper size bu hand. 50% pipper to the fixed ring means a 10 meter wing span fighter would be 200 meters away but than my convergence is off because I set it to 100 before (example).

I hope you can see know where my confusion lies. Same is with how to set it onto the bomber. In case the pipper is to 50 % as well the bomber when fittin ginto the pipper would be 600 meters away.


some litle push in the direction would be very much appreciated.


if i set my convergence than to 200 and set the pipper to 50% i can aim at the fighter from 200 meters cause when the fighter fits in te fixed ring 2 times it is 200 meters away, right ???

Waldo.Pepper
08-02-2007, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">my convergence is set to 200m. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow Bearcat is that ever close. Are you able to restrain yourself to shooting only at that distance?

XyZspineZyX
08-02-2007, 04:19 PM
'Chuck_Older' will not be replying to this or amy other thread.

However, that was my post http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I retired that username when the real Charles H. Older died

I am confused by your issues

Firstly, It doesn't matter what a Revi does, in regards to the K-14 at all

The slashed 'lines' around the perimeter of the 'pipper' on the K-14 move in relation to the type of plane you select on the sight or how you manually re-size them. You may see a list of the planes on the graphical representation of the K-14, in the cockpit

Not every plane is listed. If for instance you wish to shoot at a P-47, you choose a plane with a similar wingspan, such as the FW 190

To change the pipper settings and therefore size of the pipper, you must refer to the game manual and readmes. My install of the sim is gone and I cannot check settings for you. You must assign keystrokes for this

You don't change your physical distance to the target, so you can make the target fit the pipper. You re-size the pipper

To know how big or small say a B-17 should be when in the pipper, when sized right, is something partially up to you; you still need to recognise range to target

You need to use the same principles for this as with any other, non-gyro sight

Know how big a typical target is when at for instance 200 m. Let's assume your convergence is 200m. Then when you fly, re-set your pipper to that size, for that target. Now, don't manually re-size the pipper; change the target type on the sight

The only control you have is changing pipper size

f.ip2
08-02-2007, 04:32 PM
ok i seem to get it.

Maybe I missed the key binding for plane types.
I did not see a binding of that in the preferecences before.

Talamir
08-02-2007, 05:09 PM
So is the default convergence for the K-14 150m?

Also what are the increments that the sight distance increases and decreases for each tap of the key?

stalkervision
08-02-2007, 05:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Resident_Jock:
Ah, but to lock on to a plane you would need a form of radar or IRST, which the K-14 equipped Mustang does not have. It is simply a gyro-stabilized gunsight. The pipper follows the estimated path of the bullets, not the plane in the sight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it is not a radar guided site, The F-86 had one though and it was very accurate . http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

berg417448
08-02-2007, 05:29 PM
I think you might be wasting your effort responding to a post made almost 3 years ago! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

crucislancer
08-02-2007, 06:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by f.ip2:
ok i seem to get it.

Maybe I missed the key binding for plane types.
I did not see a binding of that in the preferecences before. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The K-14 uses some of the same keys that the bomb sights use in the game.

Toggle Bombsight Automation - toggle K-14 (fixed, fixed+Gyro, Gyro)
Increase and Decrease Bombsight distance - I think this handles the sight distance
Adjust Sight to Right/Adjust Sight to Left - This handles the plane presets (bf109,FW190, etc)

I think that's the ones to use, but you should play with it a bit. It's been a while since I had to set it up.

I don't fly the P-51 much, but if I use the D-20NA model I'll set my convergance to 150m so I don't have to worry about it adjusting the sight to my convergence. But, whatever is most comfortable for you.

Akronnick
08-02-2007, 06:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crucislancer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by f.ip2:
ok i seem to get it.

Maybe I missed the key binding for plane types.
I did not see a binding of that in the preferecences before. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The K-14 uses some of the same keys that the bomb sights use in the game.

Toggle Bombsight Automation - toggle K-14 (fixed, fixed+Gyro, Gyro)
Increase and Decrease Bombsight distance - I think this handles the sight distance
Adjust Sight to Right/Adjust Sight to Left - This handles the plane presets (bf109,FW190, etc)

I think that's the ones to use, but you should play with it a bit. It's been a while since I had to set it up.

I don't fly the P-51 much, but if I use the D-20NA model I'll set my convergance to 150m so I don't have to worry about it adjusting the sight to my convergence. But, whatever is most comfortable for you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm pretty sure (95% sure) that those commands are right to control the K-14. The are nott mapped by default so you will have to set them yourself.

MrMojok
08-02-2007, 07:09 PM
Crucis is right about the controls to use for the K-14.

And Chuck- nice post from 2004. I realize I am a bit late thanking you for it but I only got the sim in February 2005 so I missed it originally!

Nonetheless, very informative, and useful to me.

Akronnick
08-02-2007, 07:43 PM
Wow, I've acually been flying this sim for over three years now...

Tempus Fugit!