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View Full Version : Flightsims will never die, everyone get in here and give your honest oppinion!



CD_Turbo
10-17-2004, 06:27 AM
Hello!

I know the policy of this board on Pacific fighters concerning piracy but please let people post their oppinions in this thread.
I would like some input from people who can honestly speak their mind on piracy without being flamed by other users as "thieves" and lower lifeforms.
Please post your oppinions, be polite to others.

I've seen alot of issues about piracy and depressing words from Oleg that its jepardising future projects.
To be honest ive downloaded games and music through peer to peer programs and still do.

The problem now i think in the games industry is that games are so market orientated and have to appeal to big crowds to make money.
I think Wing commander was one of the first games made with a big budget and put to the market to sell in big numbers.
Most game developers in their short existence in the games buisness must make decisions of cutting down some of their artistry and dreams to make a game that is well rounded to appeal to publishers.

Flightsims have generally been different because they appeal to a smaller crowd and that generally means sim developers will make less money.
Realistic flight sims are often made by programmers that are pretty much heroic and dedicate their time into making their vision come true and not thinking too much about the mainstream side of game developing.

Todays sims seem to be the first person shooters.
What is different about IL-2 is that it's made by a team who really want to try and emulate realism in the expense of appealing to the main gaming communities thirst for quick thrills and action.

Most people who have downloaded pacific fighters are not scum or thieves in my oppinion but fellow simmers that burn for the dream of flying.
I don't think it's right to judge other because frankly i think 99% have breached copyright laws willingly or without knowing it.

What really matters is everyones personal values of giving something back to the IL-2 crew.
I think it's a good idea to buy pacific fighters because when i play il-2 it gives me the feeling of being part of the dream that all we simmers share of really being up there flying.
And i had a look of the games on my harddrive, the conclusion was that all the games i've downloaded have been on the harddrive for about 1 day and then discarded.
All the games that ive liked and kept playing i have bought.
I feel that im doing the right thing buying games that i continue playing.

As long as people dream of flying there will be sims of varying realism made by programmers that dream of emulating their vision of reality.

Proof:
A link to a crew who are fans of IL-2 and really dedicate all their time into making a jetsim.
It's got a great article on the process of making a jetsim: http://www.thunder-works.com/news.htm

F19_Orheim
10-17-2004, 06:36 AM
I see no relevance or connection between "pirate software" and supporting flightsims, or believing in the genre. It is up to the developer to produce a DEMO (!!!) so that people can play the game and after that decide wheather to buy a game or not,

Piracy is no good however you look at it, period.

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
10-17-2004, 07:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Todays sims seem to be the first person shooters.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ever wonder why there are so many different first person shooters out there when they are all basically the same game concept?

No? well I believe that its because they are relatively 'Easy' money for the developers and they don't lose so much in terms of time spent on development when they do get inevitably pirated.

Think about most of the first person shooters out there.

They are pretty much all the same format ,with maybe one or two exceptions, run shoot kill with maybe a story line if your lucky and a different set of skins.

It takes ballz to push a new game concept or experiment outside of the consumer ball park but fewer and fewer developers will risk it if they think that an already niche market is simply going to be pirated into extinction.

Long and short of it is if you want developers to push the envelope of gaming you have to pay. If you don't then consign yourself to a bleak future with yet another bloody FPS variation.

FPS are in my opinion the tabloid press of the game's industry and unless you are prepared to reward developers for their efforts that is all you can expect them to churn out.

I am thinking of this from the point of view of someone who has watched the games industry develop since the days of Space Invaders right up to what we have today.

In the early days all manner of weird and wonderful (and admittedly crӞp) games would surface this has become less and less common every year (more so of late) with maybe one or two truly innovative titles being released per annum.

I think back in the day piracy was something most people ignored as generally it meant you had to go talk to some cheesy guy down at some market corner in order to obtain a non-legitimate product. How ever with the advent of broad band and peer to peer software we have essentially become our own dealer and no longer have to feel like we are doing something wrong because we feel secure in our own homes.

It is only really now that finally the old adage of piracy kills software houses has been proven to be true. Its kinda like gun control people you have the tools its up to you to use them responsibly. You will always find those that do and those that don't. The question is which group do you wan't to belong to ?

jjohnson24
10-17-2004, 07:30 AM
See my reply in the "Oleg is losing Money" thread. The axiom is: without profit, there is not business. FPS' among other genres generate the maximum profit and that's why we see the market flooded with that genre. Apparently, the thought process of the publishers includes a price point for games that they feel will be competetive in the marketplace. Again apparently, that price point is set by the known/anticipated size of the marketplace. IMO, the price point for Oleg's product is set too low and/or the size of the marketplace has been overestimated, I assume by the publisher.
The result: Oleg and crew are not making money. Whether UBI is making money on the deal is a good question at this point.
I think the future of quality flight sims is very much in doubt if the formula for pricing is not changed to be in line with the real core market.
I'd pay a "realistic" price for 1C's product. The question is how many others would also.

pourshot
10-17-2004, 07:37 AM
I dont know anything about the game industry but ther was a hell of alot of people asking for PF servers tonite on hyper, and that cant be a good thing.The realy sad part was how they argue that piracy is ok http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
10-17-2004, 07:40 AM
Your probably right but my point is maximum profit minimum effort.

Oh yeah and IBTD

(in before the delete) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Bearcat99
10-17-2004, 08:17 AM
Flight sims will never die. Quality flight sims like this one may if it is seen that to take the steps that Oleg and 1C have taken in terms of customer support and devotion to craft are unprofitable. That is why we must do the right thing and buy the sim if we are using it. Im not even saying that you should buy more than one copy.. but if you fly it..... buy it. That alone will keep the ball rolling. There will always be someone to throw some piece of $hite with wings together for the die hards but developers and products like Oleg& 1C and the IL2 franchise are not the norm. It would have been far more profitable for him to make something more appealing to the general public.. even with his FPS I am willing to wager that it will be a cut above the others out there. I see FarCry and Halo on the PCs in the store running and they are a joke.. well Farcry isnt too bad.. but Halo and Doom are a joke IMO of course.. but then I never was big on FPS.

Maverick--GER--
10-17-2004, 09:15 AM
First off i am against piracy!
To F19_orheim: To try out games there are demos and video Rentals out where you can rent the game for a day!!!

And I really think we dont have to worry about losing good flightsims!
Especially with Pacific Fighters there will be a lot more people purchasing, because i think the Pacific theater is just much more popular then the IL2 scenery!

But I also think there should be a bit more advertising of those games! I never heard anything of IL2 before i "accidently" found it in the video rental! While you always see advertisements of for example battlefield or counterstrike or stuff like that!
I would just say much people dont know there are such good combat flight sims out!


To the point of the piracy:
I just think a game that is good needs to be purchased! Especially a game you can play over years! And I also dont understand why that people can spend thousands of dollars for hardware but not 50 bucks for the game!!!

Von_Zero
10-17-2004, 09:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maverick--GER--:
i think the Pacific theater is just much more popular then the IL2 scenery! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
just curious, what makes u think that?

Maverick--GER--
10-17-2004, 09:28 AM
I just think that people saw for example the movie "pearl harbor" (even if it was ****)
Or for example everyone heard of kamikaze!

For myself i can say i am german but i really didnt know so much about the german fights then i knew about "japan vs. USA"

might also be only in germany that way because here you dont hear much about the germans in the second world war! I dont know how it is in other countries but here the only thing you learn for example in school about the second world war is that Hitler was a bad bad person and that is about it!

-HH-Quazi
10-17-2004, 11:55 AM
Bottom line, priacy is wrong. There's no way to sugar coat it to make it seem alright. This," if I like it I'll buy it" bs is ludacrist. Someone knows someone who knows someone that gets a new game for review, be it a magazine review or whatever. I believe that is how allot of this stealing starts. Then it ends up on the computer of a squadron member and before you know it, the whole squad is sharing it. And you can't convince me that if someone likes it, they will buy it. $40 is allot of money to most people, me included, and no one is going to go buy the sim if they already have it for free. (Well, a few might) If you believe that, you give humanity too much credit. People that are playing PF, before it's official release, from file sharing are thieves. There's no other way to say it. This post can't be personal because I have not mentioned any names. But lets be honest. If you are playing PF before it comes out, you are a thief. Now, go ahead and dress it up so it doesn't make it sound so bad, so you can feel better about it. But bottom line, if you are playing PF now, you are a thief. If you can live it that, well, I guess you can live with it.

adlabs6
10-17-2004, 12:14 PM
I agree with Bearcat, flight sims or any other games aren't going away. They will evolve to more and more aggressive anti-piracy if push comes to shove though. At least those developers/publishers who are serious will evolve.

And if I had to venture a guess, it would be that the current "free addons forever" format that we enjoy with this series will never become mainstream. Even Eagle Dynamics won't add any content to LockOn for free. New planes and such WILL be paid addons. Its an effort to keep things profitable. I'm not even sure Maddox will continue this into BoB.

If over the course of 2005, 2006, and 2007 BoB takes the path of IL2, it will wind up as a multi-theater blend of many aircrafts and maps much like we have now with IL2/FB/AEP/PF. I personally would not be bothered to see free "patches" that fix code issues, and most addon content moved to paid "addons" to help put credit (profit) where it's due... in the developers hands.

Still there are issues with this. The current PC game business model wants nice $39.99 products for the shelves. A non-stand alone addon with 4 maps and 14 planes does not fit this model. I seriously doubt that you'd ever see such an addon boxed at Wal-Mart priced more appropriately at $14.99 MSRP because it's not as profitable for that shelf space.

This makes me think of the business model that I've seen in the world of 3rd party MS Flight Simulator addons. I've bought a single GA plane for $25, the RealAir SF260. Kind of high for one plane, but still a really nice product. I've bought the FSGenesis USA terrain mesh at 76 meter resolution for $15, well worth the money IMO. These purchases were all made online, and either downloaded or in the case of the 500MB of terrain, I orded a CD.

Perhaps a similar system, selling not 3rd party content but official first party addons, could work for a combat sim?

Chuck_Older
10-17-2004, 12:16 PM
What are we panicking about now?

owlwatcher
10-17-2004, 12:32 PM
Fightsims may not die but alot of flight sims makers will come and go.

Old_Canuck
10-17-2004, 12:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by owlwatcher:
Fightsims may not die but alot of flight sims makers will come and go. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is true. Oleg is an artist par excellance surrounded by very talented people. Highly talented people can be volatile and if he gets angry enough at how people are abusing his creation he could pull the plug and I wouldn't blame him. Sure hope he stays with it though because he's setting standards for our favorite sim genre that will be hard to beat even long after he's gone.

Shifty101
10-17-2004, 12:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I'd pay a "realistic" price for 1C's product. The question is how many others would also. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. I would be willing to pay $100 for Pacific Fighters if it helped ensure future projects such as BoB. When BoB came out I would again be willing to shell out big dollars for it, heck I already spend a bundle on computer parts and joysticks for this game what is an extra $50?

willyvic
10-17-2004, 01:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maverick--GER--:

But I also think there should be a bit more advertising of those games....... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We've(IL2/AEP/PF)come a long way in the advertising arena. From virtually nonexistent with the original IL2 to a side bar in most PC mags to full blown articles in newspapers, mags and on line. True, the television media hasn't been tapped to its potential but I believe that is because of the small niche market we flight simmers occupy. But we HAVE come a long way.

WV

tsisqua
10-17-2004, 01:39 PM
This is a subject that I have avoided, but here goes:

This is the internet. It is a very dark place at times because it has always been such a free place. FTP protocol is the reason that an internet even exists. It was all about sharing data.

Now, that being said, this thing of a leaked gold master is pure BS. Whoever did it should be sued, SUED SUED.

I wouldn't download this. Ever.

Now, a confession. I tried out the first IL2 as the full game version was available at Kazza. If it weren't for Kazza . . . I would not have heard of IL2 in the first place. I was actually looking for files that pertained to CFS series from MS. I downloaded the image file, installed the game and nearly peed myself when I saw the graphics, the FM's, and the DM's. In my mind, this was a demo. A demo! You better believe that I own the retail version of every IL2 related release: IL2 Sturmovik/IL2 Sturmovik The Forgotten Battles/AEP, and I don't even need to see PF . . . I am going to buy it. I went out and paid for what I knew was a worthy product. IL2 had already been out for awhile, and the pirated copy had been floating around awhile. 1C owes whoever put the file up for download for every copy of every product that I have purchased. Quite honestly, this was the way that file sharing was supposed to work. If, however, 60% of the peeps playing at the moment are using pirated copies, we are talking about a sizable chunk out of the pockets of those who spent so much time developing this great piece of artwork.

I have shared files since I bought my first machine, and would like to think that I have done so responsibly. I never continue to use dl'd files, unless they are free liscense. If a game is not good, I am going to trash can the file. If the game is worth having, I will be buying a copy.

"But, Tsisqua, not everyone is like you, though." Well, apparently not. But I would like to say that I do not believe that everyone sharing files is a thief. On the other hand, it has arrived at the point where most are http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif .

One more time: Anyone leaking a gold master final version of ANY game should be prosecuted, especially pre-release. I am already aware of what the quality of this title will be because it is 1C. Every previous release stands as a demo.

Yes, I know that the original IL2 had, and still does, a free demo up for dl, but that isn't how I first was introduced to IL2, and I didn't know about the demo at the time. I would have gone that way first if I had been directed there. The bottom line is I went out and paid for the game.

Well, hopefully you all won't think any less of me for my opinions or actions, but finding this game/sim has been one of the best things to happen to me in recent years . . . thanks to Kazza.

Tsisqua

icrash
10-17-2004, 05:02 PM
Heck I never knew there was a demo for IL2. I saw the box, did some looking online for screenies & video clips, then bought it and a joystick. True it would have been nice to try it but I'd still been out the $ for a joystick (I already knew flying IL2 keyboard would not do it justice and would be a pain at least for me). The piracy thing is nothing more than theft of goods/service of Oleg and company. They have put in a lot of hard work and deserve every penny in return for their effort.

space invaders http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif fond memories there, now I have new ones thanks to Maddox and 1C. I'd like them to stick around & not call it quits over a bunch of people who are nothing more than a pack of thieves.