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View Full Version : New pup in Sturmovik, anyone remember how to fly it?



sunflower1
02-01-2005, 12:38 PM
I've finally got a computer that pretty much reliably runs the game and in the first six months I've had the game I've only had time to really learn one plane, though I've flown 90% of them a bit.

I want to take Sturmovik flying to the top level before I move on and online flying has started forcing me to fly "backwards" from the rear cockpit in order to stay alive long enough to shoot somebody down or to be anything other than a huge waste of ammo. It seems like my job is to make sure Red fighters run into 109's that are out of cannon shells. Do other Sturmovik pilots do this or am I kidding myself that its a good idea?

I've also taken to using enormous amounts of rudder while in the inverted portion of hard climbing brake turn to brings guns to bear, but I can't figure out the final hook of the maneuver to end up with my E pointed in the right direction. If you fly this plane I think you know what I'm talking about- the bandit is underneath you and on the other side of the circle with his wing loaded. I keep trying to snap 180 from inverted, after the snap shot, to end up with him coming up from below for the gravy guns solution but its pretty hard to do and you always end up at about 200kph or less. Any ideas?

sunflower1
02-01-2005, 12:38 PM
I've finally got a computer that pretty much reliably runs the game and in the first six months I've had the game I've only had time to really learn one plane, though I've flown 90% of them a bit.

I want to take Sturmovik flying to the top level before I move on and online flying has started forcing me to fly "backwards" from the rear cockpit in order to stay alive long enough to shoot somebody down or to be anything other than a huge waste of ammo. It seems like my job is to make sure Red fighters run into 109's that are out of cannon shells. Do other Sturmovik pilots do this or am I kidding myself that its a good idea?

I've also taken to using enormous amounts of rudder while in the inverted portion of hard climbing brake turn to brings guns to bear, but I can't figure out the final hook of the maneuver to end up with my E pointed in the right direction. If you fly this plane I think you know what I'm talking about- the bandit is underneath you and on the other side of the circle with his wing loaded. I keep trying to snap 180 from inverted, after the snap shot, to end up with him coming up from below for the gravy guns solution but its pretty hard to do and you always end up at about 200kph or less. Any ideas?

FoolTrottel
02-01-2005, 02:14 PM
Ideas?
Stay low! Very low!
Get help!

No, I do not really remember howto fight them, other than avoid them.

Though... sometimes I startup the Original One.... and enjoy it.
And I stay low. Very low...

Tooz_69GIAP
02-01-2005, 02:33 PM
Well, how I fly the IL-2 (and I've flown it a bit) is to sneak around the edge of the map to the target while flying in the weeds.

I avoid enemy fighters as much as possible. But if I am intercepted, then I figure out where the nearest lot of Red boys are, and head there with all possible speed, generally below treetop level (makes it difficult for the blue guy to hit you, specially in 190s!!).

If I shake em, or they nosedive into the dirt trying to hit me, I turn back onto my original course, and kill my target.

civildog
02-01-2005, 07:05 PM
The shturmovik you are flying isn't a dogfighter, tovarich. It is a tank-armored, tractor-engined, ground-pounding Hitlerite meatgrinder!

You aren't supposed to dogfight with it, you're supposed to punch 23-37mm holes in panzers and drop bombs and rockets on the fleeing panzertruppen. Fly low, if you aren't mowing the grass with it you aren't low enough.

If you want to dogfight in an IL-2 use one of the early single seat jobs. The IL-2I was specifically made to dogfight, but even these are not exactly nimble. Brute force is called for when using them, lots of it.

3.JG51_BigBear
02-01-2005, 07:45 PM
Staying low is definitely the key. It also helps to have a rear gunner. If you're intercepted keep your belly as close to the ground as possible to force the bogie to attack from above putting him in your rear gunner's arc of fire. I've seen Il2s take a surprsing amount of damage, especially against early 109s, so if you find yourself getting shot at, don't give up, just keep flying to the target, try jinking but I wouldn't attempt too many abrupt manuevers because you're going to burn off a lot of speed. The jinking at the right time along with the armored bath tub that surrounds the engine and pilot will often keep you safe until an F2 or F4 runs out of ammo.

sunflower1
02-01-2005, 08:01 PM
"The shturmovik you are flying isn't a dogfighter, tovarich. It is a tank-armored, tractor-engined, ground-pounding Hitlerite meatgrinder!

You aren't supposed to dogfight with it, you're supposed to punch 23-37mm holes in panzers and drop bombs and rockets on the fleeing panzertruppen. Fly low, if you aren't mowing the grass with it you aren't low enough.

If you want to dogfight in an IL-2 use one of the early single seat jobs. The IL-2I was specifically made to dogfight, but even these are not exactly nimble. Brute force is called for when using them, lots of it."

Roger all of that, I understand. I don't pick fights, ever, of course, but they come to me!

As in real life, its good to shoot down a Sturmovik. Keeps your side's ground targets alive and feels really good, too. I get that.

I just want to be the Sturmovik pilot who will kill you anytime and everytime you make one mistake after you've started chewing on me. I want to make you miss with as many rounds as possible until you've seen all my tricks because that runs you lower on ammo and allows help to come in time. I am becoming a good enough shot with those amazing guns so that if you're dealing with any support I might have and you happen to get within 1km of me you're going to see those tracers going by fairly close, at least.

I'm taking the attitude I'd take if I had to fly one of these into combat- I will not go quietly into that good night. I understand that still buys me a coffin most of the time, but that's not the point! Its a Cr@plane attitude.

Another issue about Sturmoviks to throw out: is it conceivable that a Sturmovik can be accused of vulching? Its a ground attack aircraft, after all, and its natural habitat is circling over helpless targets.

I pushed the limits of vulching on GG with the Sturmo. I let a 109 get his wheels up and then I let him have the "little green lasers in the engine treatment" from about 500-600m. Nobody screamed at me. I was a little surprised. It felt right and sportsmanship is important to me.

You are right that brute force works well with this plane. In fact, the dynamic yaw problems can be turned into an asset because the rate at which the nose can be turned in certain regimes goes through the roof. Also, this plane can shed 190kph in one snap roll without losing control. That's a pretty neat trick if somebody in a UFO isn't expecting it!

I prefer the Series 3, but most planesets feature the 37mm armed version. The only upside to that one seems to be that the rear gunner doesn't often run out of ammo!

I don't want to dogfight in one, I want to fight in one and survive. In real life that was a bit of a trick. I'm just trying to find all the options and trolling to see if people will give up some secrets....

Friendly_flyer
02-01-2005, 11:41 PM
I would say marksmanship is what you need to concentrate on. In the Sturmovik, you usually only get a brief chance for a shot at an enemy fighter. But with those cannons, one hit will mostly do.

Breeze147
02-02-2005, 08:51 AM
I fly the Sturmo a lot. There's is nothing like taking out an entire column of tanks with the 37mm. I love coming in down in the weeds over an airfield and taking out an entire row of parked aircraft in one pass. Ground fire is a big problem, but the biggest problem is those @#*&^% exploding trains. I've been blown in half more times than I can count.

109's, 190's, 110's cannot possibly out turn a Sturmo. Just keep turning until you end up with a shot. Boring but very effective. AI 110 pilots are the dumbest sonsa*****es in the Luftwaffe anyway. I think the AI gives all of the prospective fighter pilots an IQ test and the one's who score the lowest get to fly AI 110's. Get behind them and they always try to pull straight up. I feel sorry for fools.

Anytime I'm being chased, I head for the deck and jink like crazy. Many times, they give up and turn around.

Tooz_69GIAP
02-02-2005, 09:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sunflower1:
I let a 109 get his wheels up and then I let him have the "little green lasers in the engine treatment" from about 500-600m. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's your first mistake. When in a Sturmo, and you are hitting a base, as soon as you see ANYTHING on the ground spawning, you pounce on it!!! That's one secret. You hit anything and everything you can, and you do it quickly, and you get the heck outta dodge sose you can come back and do it again!!

But here's the best "secret": fly with a wingman on comms who loves to blow stuff up as much, or even more than you do. If you do that, you will be able to wreck entire maps with few deaths, and get some great enjoyment out of seeing those 109s buzzing around looking for ye when you are away off below some ridge, or flying through the streets of a city, or summit.

It's a great feeling to really get people screaming at you for wrecking their bases. It may suck, but it's war, and you are flying an aircraft which was designed to do exactly what you were doing!!

Heavy_Weather
02-02-2005, 09:27 AM
well as you can clearly tell by now, keeping this bird low is the solution to staying alive. making the opponent dive down on you gives you the advantage of a clear engine shot if not, a pilot kill. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Mort-Fauchante
02-02-2005, 09:28 AM
Right on buddy, I like your style! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

What I used to do when I flew the IL-2 offline, was staying low, letting the attacker getting close (0.6, no closer), then

1) throttle fully back

2) prop settings to 0,

3) flaps fully out

4) and sign along with The Byrds: "Turn, turn, turn..." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

After doing a three-sixty, you go after the attacker and whack him over the head real well!

I started doing that after getting bored with my flight leaders tactics:

Attack once, then go home!

I wanted points, ranks, medals http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif, so I started going after the fighters, either when they bounced me on my way to the target, or after I had already done my ground-job.

Online flying, I expect, is different. Especially when there are Ki-84s or La-7s around...

What I like is co-op dogfights, so you can man your tail-gun with someone else on the net, and you have friendly fighter-support, too.

But hey, if you dog-fight successfully in a Sturmovik, no-one can say it's not suited for that - just proved them wrong, eh? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Keep flying the Sturmovik, it's a GOOD plane!

Cheers,

LMF (Beaufighter-fan)

sunflower1
02-02-2005, 07:11 PM
"Online flying, I expect, is different. Especially when there are Ki-84s or La-7s around..."

Whoa Nellie is that an understatement!

With AI I never bother to lighten the load before engaging anymore, spoils the fun at the target. Online these little dots blur past one direction and then the other!! My standard warmup is to put 4 ace 109's in QMB and then spank them hard with even the heaviest Sturmovik. When you go online you realize you were living in your own little world.

Online you don't really even get any shots with the forward firing guns unless somebody has made a mistake. At least I haven't yet though I expect to...working on some new tricks after having seen how the world works. Friendly Flyer is right, you have to be able to shoot straight to become dangerous in this plane. I'm not possesed with great innate shooting talent but I've worked at it until I'm no longer surprised when I blow up a blue fighter at well over .5km. Not that its common, I'm just not surprised anymore....

The late model Sturmovik cannot out turn anything online after the initial brake turn and I'm not even sure about that. I haven't had the pleasure of using the Series 3 or field mod in a tight situation yet but I seriously doubt you can put the guns on him after about 300 degrees of turn unless he's moving really fast. Even in a Sturmovik you think twice about spending your E that way.

Does nobody else fly from the rear cockpit? If you've flown RC models you should find the transition from one cockpit to the other to be no problem in terms of handling the plane. I still don't aim very well with the mouse while flying this way, but I can tell when the tracers are about to start flying and try to be where they're not. This seems to be a great way to go, do 110 pilots do this?

"That's your first mistake. When in a Sturmo, and you are hitting a base, as soon as you see ANYTHING on the ground spawning, you pounce on it!!! That's one secret. You hit anything and everything you can, and you do it quickly, and you get the heck outta dodge sose you can come back and do it again!!"

Some servers say vulching is a kickable offense and in heat of the moment I couldn't remember what the policy was so I figured I'd wait until his wheels were up. For my troubles he left the game before his plane or freefalling pilot hit the ground. LOL Watching that was the best entertainment of the day.

I am on dialup so I'm typing comms, but I do press "S" and start gabbing with other ground pounders to try to dig up some comradery but it hasn't quite happened yet. I have also had zero support from fighters, even after giving basic position reports (leaving base bound for X, halfway to X, starting attack, etc.) That's ok, but it would sure be fun to see the cavalry ride in and take advantage of the E state in which I've put the blue fighters. I'm good bait. A person could score some points following me around, I think.

"and you get the heck outta dodge sose you can come back and do it again!!"

I love flying low, really, really low, so I have that part down but I have not been up to snuff on the escape plan and executing it. Good advice. I need to learn to expend all my ordnance in one pass with a higher degree of accuracy with the bombs. Offline teaches you that you can take aim and come back. Online kills you for that.

Thanks for the comments

civildog
02-02-2005, 07:34 PM
In real life the rear gunners sometimes even carried a PPSH SMG so they could lean over to hit enemy planes under the tail. There was also an aerial greande launcher that allowed grenades on 'chutes to be dropped behind and below the plane to further discourage attackers.

BUT....in the game if I am going to hit a base and can carry napalm or cluster bombs with me I kill an awful lot of those poor dumb pilots (A.I. especially) who follow me down into the weeds when I just drop the load at full speed and they fry in the blast. The 'vic has enough heavy ammo to shoot up a base anyway, especially with wingmen.

And any 109 following you so low is giving up his best advantage because if he gets bounced by a friendly he will find it a lot harder to escape without some altitude to trade for speed.

Getting bounced in a 109 at such low and slow speeds is like getting trapped by a gale on a lee shore.

So always fly with others. Like the real life pilots did, set up the famous "Wheel of Death" and take turns making runs at the ground targets while covering the eachother's tail.

Also, because of the 'vic's low speed manuverability you can make so pretty tight turns and hammerheads to keep the pressure up on the targets below.

Badsight.
02-02-2005, 10:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sunflower1:
If you want to dogfight in an IL-2 use one of the early single seat jobs. The IL-2I was specifically made to dogfight, but even these are not exactly nimble... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
IL2-I was made to hunt bombers , but being so slow , why they even bother ?

& the best DogFighting IL2 isnt a single seater (& it used to be even better than it is now , & when it was really good , the lucky VVS flying bastages in the VEF had free run with it)

FB v1.22 *sigh* , them were the days

read all their stats in the Object Viewer & do some testing , id be interested to see what you would have to say after that

Badsight.
02-02-2005, 10:14 PM
i should qualify the above with the fact that the IL2 is my all time favourite Coop ride , bar none

no way in hell do i ever turn down a Sturmovik coop

killed heaps of them in the VEF too , not to be under estimated

sunflower1
02-03-2005, 10:54 AM
hmm, let me guess, I'm going to find that the 2m is the best dogfighter? Thanks, I'll read up!

I don't want to dogfight with the IL-2 per se, I just want to be able to fight as well as possible with it, and survive. Actually engaging and staying engaged isn't what I am trying to to, but to be able to have a full bag of tricks so that when the opportunity arrives I can play "whack a mole."

I had two such opporunities last night, one I saw coming but didn't have enough elevator skin left to raise the nose for a gravy head on, the other I realized the fighter was going to give me his six as he passed and I missed the shot badly because 1)I didn't see his mistake in time and 2) I haven't worked on that angle snap shot at all because AI never gives you the chance to practice this one. Not that its too smart, they just never hold enough E to be able to do it. I want to be able to reliably turn those mistakes into flaming blue wreckage.

The other thing I've noticed, related to the different E states between live and AI, is that the AI has trained me to think aggressively. As soon as I have their angle jammed I'm thinking about how to put the guns on him by getting a proper firing solution. Online this is a mistake. It seems like the correct attitude is to leave the defensive mindset in play and work for the longer range shot as the bandit extends after a pass.

Badsight, I hope to end up flying a Coop with you sometime.

F19_Olli72
02-04-2005, 01:50 AM
Sunflower I have to disagree with Badsight on the singleseater. I much prefer to dogfight in that rather than the twoseaters, of course on the servers i play on theres yearspecific planesets so i take whats available. But i wont be up against K4's in it. And besides i like early planesets more. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The single seater is lighter, faster has better climb and its more agile. The only possible advantages of twoseaters in a fight to me is superior rearview and slightly bigger cannons (23 mm instead of 20 mm except in the 1941 serie 3 model that has 23 mm too). Note that otherwise i dont think the reargunner is an advantage, any halfdecent 109 pilot will use his better agility to avoid the reargunner. Even if he doesnt, hes usually so close he'll either kill the reargunner or just get minor damage. Id avoid jumping into the reargunnerseat for the purpose of shooting down the enemy, i rather jink and make him miss. But as i said the reargunner provides a very good rearview which helps to keep a high SA.

Also remember that IL-2I is a 1943 model, in that year i prefer to to have a twoseater. The earlier 1941 models 1,2 and 3 has a better chance against earlier fighters (in 43 most 109 pilots will have 30 mm cannons also). They also are lighter than the IL-2I and is faster (even if marginally) has better climb etc.

Of course as with all planes teamwork is a huge advantage. And as been said good deflection shooting is too, your mg's and cannons has a great range.

Im sure Ob would have some points too, we've flown IL-2s a lot together.

Hendley
02-04-2005, 04:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sunflower1:
Does nobody else fly from the rear cockpit? If you've flown RC models you should find the transition from one cockpit to the other to be no problem in terms of handling the plane. I still don't aim very well with the mouse while flying this way, but I can tell when the tracers are about to start flying and try to be where they're not. This seems to be a great way to go, do 110 pilots do this?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spending a lot of time in the rear seat of the Bf110 can be, I've found, a pretty good way to survive, although I usually pull up a little from the deck if I expect to be shooting for a while becuase of the small hills you can sometimes plow into...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

The Bf110 is actually a great plane to fly from the back; the twin fins give you a great field of view, the double MGs pack a punch, and the plane has enough speed to give you a lot of time to line up the target. I still lose the one-on-one's more often than not, but the attacker usually ends up with at least a smoking engine...

With the Stuka, on the other hand, I have more success staying in the pilot's seat and concentrating on jinking. The rear gun is a bit weak, and the AI gunner doesn't do a bad job sometimes.

Still haven't decided what's best with the B25... Sometimes I have success in the back, sometimes I'm shot and killed there the moment I switch seats http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Interesting posts, by the way sunflower; I've been wondering about a lot of the same stuff myself, since starting my online mudmoving career in earnest http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Badsight.
02-04-2005, 04:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
The single seater is lighter, faster has better climb and its more agile. The only possible advantages of twoseaters in a fight to me is superior rearview. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>well unless you have tested them back to back extensivly , you wouldnt be saying that

but then again , i dont think that we are thinking of the same Sturmovik here
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
Note that otherwise i dont think the reargunner is an advantage, any halfdecent 109 pilot will use his better agility to avoid the reargunner.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>well Olli , one burst is all you need to kill a Bf109s motor , using gunner positions isnt that easy in FB , but with the AI being as useless as it is right now , its pays to pratice
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
Id avoid jumping into the reargunnerseat for the purpose of shooting down the enemy, i rather jink and make him miss. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>yes & i bet you get shot down a lot un-necessarily too

fact is you are more capable than the AI with the AI the way it is right now , sure leave the gunnery up to the AI in FB v1.x , but not now

as i said before , im a big big fan of this plane & its the plane that i get the most stick time in coops

back in the day i got interested in it only because there is so many models of it & i only wanted to include the best ones to cut the plane list down when i hosted DF rooms

read the object viewer info on all models , then fly them back to back against another person , then youll see

Badsight.
02-04-2005, 04:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
the best DogFighting IL2 isnt a single seater (& it used to be even better than it is now , & when it was really good , the lucky VVS flying bastages in the VEF had free run with it)

FB v1.22 *sigh* , them were the days <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
oh yea they were , the best ever FB patch ever imo

p1ngu666
02-04-2005, 05:12 AM
shame the il2 has been dulled down http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

fly it like u stole it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

sunflower1
02-04-2005, 09:25 AM
Thanks for the conversation, all. I feel like I missed the best years of the IL-2....

"fly it like u stole it"

YEEEE HAAWWWW!!! Yeah, it reminds me of stealing cars!

I will look (again) for that mysterious PDF file that's on these disks somewhere. I've had this game 6 months and I still can't find them. I'll do some flight testing with a stop watch and pad of paper too. My impressions are in agreement with Ollie's but impressions can be misleading and Badsight's suggestion that I have it wrong is intriguing.

I agree with Badsight that the AI gunner is currently not effective enough to be left to his own devices. I've seen him smoke one engine in about 25 missions. I've smoked one just hopping back there and giving it a go.

Flying from the backseat doesn't hinder my ability to jink at all, but my nervous system got used to flying backwards when I was 12. You cannot overestimate the usefullness of knowing how to fly R/C models, in my humble opinion, for all forms of aviation. I was surprised to find that it translated in this way, but it did. I can fly backwards just fine, but I still can't reliably use the mouse pointer on my X-45 to track the bogey from the front seat. Go figure.
I am going to map the C key to something on the stick.

I guess I should learn to shoot from the backseat. That lead angle from there isn't natural at all for me.

I should try my hand at the 110, thanks Hendley, that sounds like a fun plane.

Ob has great ideas for the IL-2, looking forward to him getting his machine up again.

Flying the IL-2 is like swinging two bats. When the map changes and I take a fighter the smarter options for manuevering seem more obvious.

F19_Olli72
02-04-2005, 10:43 AM
Sunflower, remember theres always two sides of the coin. Badsight can believe that i get killed unnecessarily a lot if he wants to. Ill disagree, and im sure Ob will too. Not only cos hes my squadmate but for the simple reason that we've flown together since the release of FB (close to 2 years?). But i dont think i've ever been on the same server as Badsight. He's free to disagree with me of course, but it doesnt mean he's right http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

And contrary to what Badsight seems to think i never said my words was the gospel. Thats my flying style, it works well for me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif In the end, only you can decide what suits you best. And the best way to do it is to fly the plane a lot. Lastly, Badsight completely missed another point why i prefer the singleseater; yearspecific planesets. 1941 is simply more fun than 42 - 43 and beyond. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
The single seater is lighter, faster has better climb and its more agile. The only possible advantages of twoseaters in a fight to me is superior rearview. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>well unless you have tested them back to back extensivly , you wouldnt be saying that but then again , i dont think that we are thinking of the same Sturmovik here <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Badsight if its indeed so you realise that its either A) singleseater is undermodelled. or...B) twoseaters is overmodelled. Have you reported this to Oleg or 1C?

How is the twoseater better? Is it lighter? Is it faster? Does it climb better? Does it turn better?

Tell me the specific twoseater model that has better performance ill see if i can test it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

sunflower1
02-04-2005, 11:47 AM
So far my opinion is that if I'm flying on a server alone I need the tailgun and rearview to survive. I wish the non-37mm was more common in the planesets because it seems to be more agile and I don't hang around to plink tanks with the 37's very often. Those 23mm's just aren't fair and if you can hang out for awhile you can knock out tanks with them, so I find the 37's to be just an encumbrance.

I would think that flying online with other Sturmovik afficianados would be pretty fun in single seater.

Offline they are Uber, particularly in their year's planesets.

sunflower1
02-04-2005, 12:46 PM
Here's a refinement. Reading Tully's post about mapping flaps to an axis was a minor revelation for flying the IL-2.

Since flying the IL-2 without elevators for a bit is just a routine part of most missions, why not map the flaps to an axis and get some pitch control? I have seen a few people foolish enough to go head on with me after I've been chewed on for a while and just a little more up or down would have brought guns to bear....

On the X-45 an available mode could be employed to change the rotary from elevator trim to flap deployment, right?

Badsight.
02-04-2005, 12:55 PM
this Sturmovik has always been the best , Maddox Games made it this way , as you go later , they become more useless in the Air , especially the 37mm 3M

as for the 23mm cannon , they are just about the best DFing cannon in FB . they hit super hard & have excellent shell speed

& yes Olli , its early planes the i like & fly the most too
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
Badsight if its indeed so you realise that its either A) singleseater is undermodelled. or...B) twoseaters is overmodelled. Have you reported this to Oleg or 1C?

How is the twoseater better? Is it lighter? Is it faster? Does it climb better? Does it turn better?

Tell me the specific twoseater model that has better performance ill see if i can test it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
well my personal opinion is that plane performance info knowledge is won thru testing & im pretty sure we see this particular Sturmovik in different ways

Atomic_Marten
02-04-2005, 01:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FoolTrottel:
Ideas?
Stay low! Very low!
Get help!

No, I do not really remember howto fight them, other than avoid them.

Though... sometimes I startup the Original One.... and enjoy it.
And I stay low. Very low... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. I agree with that. That reduces BnZ tactic of enemy fighters a bit, but in the long run IL2 is not going to survive if escort do not make an intervention.

If you fly 'realistic' vs. humans, get yourself nice camo http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, then fly very low (but be carefull not to dust trail yourself). That way you will hopefully avoid majority of the high alt BnZers.

sunflower1
02-04-2005, 02:03 PM
Yes, the Sturmoviks do seem to have very good camoflauge. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Tully__
02-04-2005, 06:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sunflower1:

On the X-45 an available mode could be employed to change the rotary from elevator trim to flap deployment, right? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not using direct axis assignment, axis outputs are not subject to mode changes unless they're banded.

F19_Ob
02-11-2005, 06:47 AM
Oh goodie...an il-2 thread http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I'm not keen on taking sides in any discussion and Olli and I have discussed tactics for years and we do not always agree on everything.
While I in this case agree with most of the things he says, especially the part "In the end, only you can decide what suits you best. And the best way to do it is to fly the plane a lot", I have to also agree with Badsight that the reargunner in a two seater can infact do real damage to a fighter.

With this said I again agree with olli that the chance to survive increases if u avoid manning the gunnerseat and let the ai handle it in most cases.
The only exeption for me is when I have maneuvered to get an enemy slow and in such a position that good hits are likely, but even in most those cases the ai does a good job, not because of skill but the high rate of fire and the flat trajectory of the rear mg.
Personally I try keep my distance to chasing 109's especially when on the deck wich disables the 109 to stay below my reach and is forced to lag behind if he wants to avoid my gunners spray. Then I fly in slow wavy moves and in a slight turn wich makes the 109's closure slow and gives my reargunner good shots at longest range while I'm as hard as possible to hit. When or if the range is great enough I turn back for a headon.
So like Olli I prefer to concentrate on maneuvering to the absolute edge of performance
wich is especially hard in the twoseater because its almost a ton heavier than any singleseater and therefore loses energy fast. In that situation all moves are critical to get the best of it (my opinion).

In a way Olli and I fly the il2 wrong since we fly it offensively like a fighter with freedom, and balancing and calculating our energy for fighting airtargets instead of groundtargets.
In real life only few dogfighted in the il-2, not because it was unable but because of orders.
Sometimes a pilot could get reprimanded for taking evasive actions and thus breaking formation wich was forbidden.
The performance of especially the lighter singleseat il-2s was so good that a portion were made to serve as escort and these escorts shot down fighters.
The germans were used to il-2's as easy pickings and were very surprized to see il-2's breaking formation and attack them.
Unfortunately the aircombat training for il-2 pilots was scarse but a few skilled pilots showed that even an alone il-2 could take on fighters in aircombat.
So in a way it was the rules of engagement and orders to not break formation that got many il-2's killed. (This is atleast how I understand it so far.)

--------------------------

As someone earlier mentioned I also think that good deflectionshooting is a nescessity in the il-2.
The speciality of the yva 23mm cannon is its hard punch on the impressive range 1000m (and slightly beyond)and the mg's reach almost 1000m aswell. The thing with the 23mm round is that it is quite a lot heavier than the 20mm and thus the great punch.
Compared, the german weapons reach about 800m but at that range its almost impossible to hit with the 30mm cannon due to the great deflection wihle its possible to score a hit with the dense bulletstream of the il-2.

In my opinion the il-2 has the best air to air armament in the sim because of its high rate of fire and extremly flat trajectory and the great ammoload but perhaps the worst plane to put it in.

Many Lw fighterjocks have no clue that they fairly easily can be taken out on 400-600m wich is my prefered range to fire. Why?
Because on closer ranges most planes can get out of the il-2 double seaters envelope but on greater ranges I have enough time to aim on a spot wich the foe will pass and since the bulletstream is so dense its very likely to score a hit and atleast damage the enemy. With greater range I have more time for adjustments.
While to hit on 1000m range is rare even in the il-2 its fairly possible to hit on 5-700m and thats better than any other plane.
So firing and aiming is a totaly differnt matter compared to fighters wich in most cases must use short bursts on closer ranges within 300m to have a likely chance to score a hit.

As example A yak wit a single mg and a nose cannon must come close, otherwise a great portion will miss and the rate of fire expends the small ammoload fast.
--------------------------------

Olli and I flew the 109 solely earlier and later adopted the tecniques for combat on the il-2, mostly because we didnt know any other way in the beginning.
In the il-2 we fly in such manner that when one of us is attacked the other quickly can convert to a spraying firing position.
Although we both are excellent deflectionshooters the clumsiness of the twoseater is sometimes the cause of hitting the enemy a few seconds too late leaving the wingman damaged or dead.
So concentration on maneuvering is very important.
Since the twoseater bleeds energy fast it needs plenty of altitude to enable highest level of E to be able to maneuver in tight spots.
Although it doesnt turn aswell as a 109 it absolutely can do successful evasions with high E.
Flying low ,hugging the ground can be justified in some cases but it also means that u have very limited Energy when attacked and have no further means to obtain it and thus only have one or two good turns before u are out of E ( = sitting duck).
-----------------------------------------

The singleseater is ofcourse much better in maneuvering and I also prefer the 3variant of the 1941 il-2 like Olli.
The reason for its success in my oppinion is not so much its turning ability but its armorplates wich enable it to take a fair ammount of hits. the other thing is that the 30mm cannon isnt available for the germans.
So the slightly better performance enables it to
bring the guns on the enemy and the ammo is the same of the standard twoseater wich is optimal for aircombat.
it would be very different if the germans had the 30mm.
Many belive its because the singleseater has better turning than the 109 but thats not right.
it has a good initial turn but cant keep it up as long as the 109.
So far no il-2 have outmaneuvered me in my 109 when I have descided to stay on his six, but then I feel that very few il-2 pilots uses it maximumperformance and I also know its disadvantages.
-----------------------

there is a lot more to be said but as u see even a short explanation is long.

Anyway The il-2's are very challenging planes to fly and very fun to fly in groups.
The drive for me is to survive against grim odds.
I like that kind of stuff http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif
To land a heavy twoseater with elevators out and serious damage after have shot down one or several superior enemies in dogfighting is very amusing and something I dont get tired of
since I constantly have to improve my tactics and push the limit. Very interesting.

I even enjoy to get shot down nowadays.
When surrounded by enemies and knowing I cant win I try to keep in the air as long as possible using all means and tricks I know.
That sometimes is like winning a victory.


Most important is to have fun. Having fun with mates is even better.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

sunflower1
02-11-2005, 09:07 AM
Ob, did you spend all day editing that or is your english really getting that much better?!

S!

I don't know if the rear gunner's AI model has changed but flying online with the a rear gunner, for me, hasn't been too helpful and I'm very aware of trying to leave him with good shots. Perhaps not skilled, but aware.

I only hop in the back seat if the bandit(s) are at a low angle and don't have a lot of energy and I'm low.

I agree with the idea of having altitude but I'm not good enough yet to really make that play, I'm better off trying to blend in probably, but flying offline I do exactly that.

Well Rats, Tully. hmmm. I am one of the few who like the rudder rocker so I don't have that available for flaps.

The few times I have company it make an huge difference. Setting up your ground attack passes so that the Sturmoviks can take head ons at anyone on their buddies six as they pass seems to scare the bejeezus out of guys who are trying to run up their score. Simply flying aggressively seems to have caused good pilots to simply view me as a bad risk attack on some occasions and that helps. Usually they blow my wing off, but sometimes they have other things on their mind and have left for a dogfight rather than concentrate on downing me and leave themselves open to attack. Or at least that's what it looks like.

I am amazed at the ability of my foe to deflection shoot and I would guess that I am killed this way 85% of the time. SA to make those shots more challenging is the challenge I'm working on.

"When surrounded by enemies and knowing I cant win I try to keep in the air as long as possible using all means and tricks I know."

Did Steve Largent play for the Raiders? "He's not fast, but he's slow." Making a lot out of a little has a sort of elegance.

F19_Ob
02-11-2005, 10:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sunflower1:
Ob, did you spend all day editing that or is your english really getting that much better?!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He he...thnx mate. I guess I slowly improve but I can mess up badly when tired. For some years now most of my litterature have been in english, and I even dream in english on occasion.
I guess I'm a bit of a anglofile. Songs in english are almost as beautiful as those in romani. I cant stand swedish songs....well a few. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

--------------

Another thing. The reargunner have often warned me so I have been able to avoid getting hit by an unseen attacker so that way a reagunner also can be of help.

When it comes to firing it took me quite long to get used to firing long bursts to let the enemy fly through, instead of short bursts like fighters do.
I belive this is the secret of hitting on ranges close or beyond 400m.
When I watched my own tracks I noticed that too many of my longdistancebursts came so close but just missed or that infact I aimed correctly but with a slightly too short burst wich ended just before the enemy reached it.
I descided to learn to start firing earlier than what I thought was nescessary and to stop firing a bit later.
This waste of ammo is neglible if it results in a hit.
This improved my hitratio quite a bit but it was difficult to get used to and still is initially.
This also improved my hits on semi-headons (headons at a slight angle) wich are one of the hardest angles to score hits on (my opinion) and where the majority of burst are too late.
These are so dificult because of the closure speed in combination with deflection.


There are many reasons to fire besides killing or hitting.
On ranges beyond 500m its difficult to hit but the burst often comes close enough to stress and/or keep the enemy occupied.
Many times I have seemingly wasted bursts with small chanse to hit but that way I have allowed my wingman or another friendly fighter to gain a favorable position to attack.
Experienced enemies often keep cool when fired at but even they may instinctively take evasive action when they feel strikes from the dense firing mg's even if the damage is light, and thus maneuver in a way that allows me closer or that results in Energy loss wich might Improve my situation and spoil his eventual attack on me.


Online I sometimes try to get someone to fly a fighter and I in a il-2. Not as an escort but as a team.
The best firing position for an il-2 that I know of is to shoot away enemies from friendlies tails. The enemy wont make evasive action and thereby makes a favorable target for me.
And a foe that takes me as target will soon be targeted by my nimbler fighterfriend, and I am able to take a few hits without going down and thus am able to, for example, loose my speed and thereby force my foe to do that too if he wants to stay with me, giving my wingman a slower target.

An interesting fighterpair with extensive possibilities.

sunflower1
02-11-2005, 12:34 PM
So when are we going to fly together?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(I think I'm GMT - 6)

msalama
02-11-2005, 02:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>shame the il2 has been dulled down <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Did this happen in PF? I mean, I just recently upgraded my FB 1.22 to AEP 2.04, and at least the early 1940 IL-2 still seems OK! I just took her for a spin as a matter of fact, after reading all these alarming posts - and noticed absolutely nada...

F19_Ob
02-12-2005, 05:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>shame the il2 has been dulled down <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Did this happen in PF? I mean, I just recently upgraded my FB 1.22 to AEP 2.04, and at least the early 1940 IL-2 still seems OK! I just took her for a spin as a matter of fact, after reading all these alarming posts - and noticed absolutely nada... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have flown the il-2 quite frequently since fb and They feel about the same to me.
I cant be absolutely sure though since Oleg doesnt report all and/or minor tweaks.

Without exact data on climb and turnrate it only becomes guesses.
Its difficult to test both online and offline
since the ai have been altered a bit and online u never can determine the exact level of the foes skill and thus cant determine if one of the planes have changed flight model or if it depends on the pilots skill, or if its just U having a bad day.

Best thing is to forget it and play on , or why not ask Oleg himself. Sometimes he finds time to answer.

F19_Ob
02-12-2005, 06:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sunflower1:
So when are we going to fly together?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(I think I'm GMT - 6) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm still occupied for atleast a week with other matters http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif but I'll notify U as soon as I'm done.
Look forward to it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

msalama
02-12-2005, 06:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Sometimes he finds time to answer. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah man, don't wanna disturb an already busy guy. Because as you said & what's important, they _do_ feel the same as in FB v.1.22! I just flew a couple of simple home-cooked Sturmo missions & nothing wrong with the vulture at all...