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anarchy52
02-11-2007, 05:12 PM
Why was pilot armored seat and bullet proof glass for the rear gunner omitted in Ju-88 DM? It is EXTREMELY easy to PK the crew from 6 O'clock even with 7.62mm. Offline with arcade mode it is clearly visible that armored seat and bulletproof glass are not modeled.

I like flying the Ju-88 but the guaranteed PK if shot at by fighters is really annoying. Any chance of a fix?

tigertalon
02-11-2007, 06:30 PM
+1

Observed the same problem myself, but didn't perform any extensive testing. However, it's obvious something is fishy.

Philipscdrw
02-11-2007, 06:42 PM
I've heard it said that there is a certain spot (I'm not going to say where it is here) which gives instant PK (and therefore gunner kill also) in the Ju88. A pilot who knows this can spray that area with .303 MG fire and instantly kill the pilot, allegedly. I've never tested this myself - my preferred attack pattern on a Ju88 is to dive at it from 10o'clock high, ideally with a Tempest, and see just how much of the aircraft I can break apart...

jagdmailer
02-12-2007, 11:50 AM
I had noticed that too when the Ju 88 first became flyable. Extremely easy PK/gunner kill from 6 o'clock, which made the best & most versatible bomber of the LW basically useless. I have not flown it lately however, but I was hoping that it would have been addressed by Maddox or RRG Sutdios since then. I am very disapointed to see that it has not been addressed since I am getting Ost Front very soon and hoping to play some Murmansk dive-bomber campaigns with the Ju 88.

I understand that the sim is at end of its development lifecycle, and perhaps even beyond that, but something so obvious that basically makes the Ju 88 useless needs to be addressed, please.

Thank you & regards,

JagdMailer




Originally posted by anarchy52:
Why was pilot armored seat and bullet proof glass for the rear gunner omitted in Ju-88 DM? It is EXTREMELY easy to PK the crew from 6 O'clock even with 7.62mm. Offline with arcade mode it is clearly visible that armored seat and bulletproof glass are not modeled.

I like flying the Ju-88 but the guaranteed PK if shot at by fighters is really annoying. Any chance of a fix?

IIJG69_Kartofe
02-12-2007, 01:01 PM
Try IA bombers...

They have robocop armours!

MK108 explosions right in the gunner position don't disable them!

THATS'an armour! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

PBNA-Boosher
02-12-2007, 02:36 PM
I never have a problem understanding why the Ju-88's get PK'ed often. If you have a greenhouse for a cockpit, don't be surprised if it breaks when hailing bullets.

Danschnell
02-12-2007, 02:42 PM
I understand glass breaking... but I don't understand it breaking if it isn't hit.

anarchy52
02-12-2007, 03:50 PM
Another interesting feature of Ju-88 is PK in case of landing gear breaking. Plane does not explode or anything, just break the landing gear and you die...

msalama
02-15-2007, 04:18 AM
just break the landing gear and you die...

Hey, _YOU_ try to survive with a landing gear shaft shoved up your a*se http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

OK, bad jokes aside this sounds a bit weird indeed...

Manu-6S
02-15-2007, 04:26 AM
I remember the first week after Ju88 Addon came out: In SpitsVS109 we were in 6-7 Ju88 in formation an at least half of all these planes were downed for PK... the others were rammed.

Vrabac
02-18-2007, 10:31 AM
Yes, the only protected crew member seems to be the lower rear gunner. Never had a PK in that position that I can remember to be honest. Upper rear is on one way trip every time you take off. And the pilot's Drakula seat also seems to be made of paper. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

La7_brook
02-19-2007, 11:18 AM
well i think its more then just the ju88 ,im getting PK about 70% ive the time in antons in this last patch and alot of them are from dead six , bug?

Brain32
02-19-2007, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by La7_brook:
well i think its more then just the ju88 ,im getting PK about 70% ive the time in antons in this last patch and alot of them are from dead six , bug?
No, it's not a bug, you are suppose to loose http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Viper2005_
02-19-2007, 05:15 PM
Bug or not, I would point out that it is far better not to be shot at in the first place than to trust in your armour plate (especially since the .50s may in fact have lots of AP rounds in their belting).

In my experience, if you take the time to climb to just below contrail height before crossing into enemy territory, and make sure to hit the target in a single level bombing pass, you'll be a lot safer.

Of course, on some maps where the weather is hot this is much easier said than done...

***

The trouble with DM issues is that they are much harder to test than FM issues.

I suggest that step 1 should be to find some data such as armour specifications for the Ju88 we have in game, and preferably some ballistic tests conducted against it as installed. If installed performance data cannot be found, the next best thing would be tests against equivalent un-installed armour plate and glass.

Step 2 should be to work out from this data how the aircraft should behave under fire.

Step 3 should be to work out a test methodology capable of validating the DM in the game

Step 4 should be to test and record tracks of the results

Step 5 should be to analyse, and if the game fails to behave as your source data suggest it should, start a thread on the subject to allow for constructive criticism of your data, test methodology etc.

Finally if afer a few thousand views of your thread you are still convinced that there is an error, step 6 is to email the bug reporting address. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

leitmotiv
02-19-2007, 08:47 PM
From my experiences I have noticed the PKs occur from lateral fire, not from 6 o'clock, and this never disturbed me because the 88 pilot was exposed to the sides. The armor glass "beetle's eye" for each of the rear-firing machine guns was not a survival guarantee. Ju 88s had armor added to the sides of the plexiglass at the rear of the canopy. There were plenty of entry ways for bullets in that big glasshouse.

anarchy52
02-20-2007, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by leitmotiv:
From my experiences I have noticed the PKs occur from lateral fire, not from 6 o'clock

No, by examining in arcade mode I found the following to be true (tested using 7,92 from Emil and 7,92 on the ground from another Ju-88):

a) hit on the left gunner position "armoured" glass ALWAYS results in pilot kill. Round will go through "armoured" glass and pilot seat.

b) hit on the right side gunner position "armoured" glass ALWAYS results in top gunner kill (graphically gunner is shown on the left side, while the player controls the right gun)

c) I was unable to kill the lower gunner

leitmotiv
02-20-2007, 02:58 PM
That is pretty ridiculous; what a screw up.

anarchy52
02-20-2007, 05:45 PM
left side = PK
right side = Gunner down
shot by 7,92 from another Ju-88
Armoured glass does not exist
Armoured seat does not exist

http://marvin.kset.org/~riddler/grab0012.jpg
http://marvin.kset.org/~riddler/grab0022.jpg
http://marvin.kset.org/~riddler/grab0027.jpg

leitmotiv
02-21-2007, 12:06 AM
Evidence in spades. Great work! I've never seen a photo of an A-4 without the heavy pilot back armor, although I've seen A-1s without it. The RAF Museum's R night fighter has the early, unarmored A-1-type seat (pilot might have dumped the armor for greater speed).

Tipo_Man
02-21-2007, 01:58 AM
Hehe.. want to know what armour means?

Here is a Pe-2 hit by 12,7 Brezin MGs on MiG-3(2xUB)

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b128/TipoMan/PilotKill.gif


Or maybe they wore some special helmet?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

mynameisroland
02-21-2007, 02:55 AM
Russian pilots are modelled with Delta Wood skulls.

Can someone test with 20mm Hispanno ? Today I shot down 3 or 4 Ju88s online and the only way to kill them was dewing them. 96thNightshifter was there too and the 1st bandit I alone hit with 48 Hispanno rounds and Nightshifter ended up finishing him off. Very tough plane - yet I have had numerous pilot kills when flying it against Hurricanes/P40s ect.

anarchy52
02-21-2007, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
Russian pilots are modelled with Delta Wood skulls.

Can someone test with 20mm Hispanno ? Today I shot down 3 or 4 Ju88s online and the only way to kill them was dewing them. 96thNightshifter was there too and the 1st bandit I alone hit with 48 Hispanno rounds and Nightshifter ended up finishing him off. Very tough plane - yet I have had numerous pilot kills when flying it against Hurricanes/P40s ect.

Ju-88 was very tough aircraft, it was built to withstand high G forces during pull out when dive bombing. In game it is extremely easy to kill:
- aim at wings: if it doesn't get dewinged you will set it on fire, it will break up in no time on it's own.
- aim at cockpit from 6 O'clock level (I usualy kill Ju-88s with a single burst with Mustang III both offline and online)

mynameisroland
02-21-2007, 10:48 AM
I was attacking from high and low 4/8 oclock to avoid the gunners hitting cockpit area and smattering the wings with explosive bursts. No WW2 2 engined bomber could take 48 rounds of Hispanno. The Mustang III is armed with .50 cals and has lots of AP rounds so maybe thats why you are getting pilot kills?

KG26_Alpha
02-27-2007, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by mynameisroland:
I was attacking from high and low 4/8 oclock to avoid the gunners hitting cockpit area and smattering the wings with explosive bursts. No WW2 2 engined bomber could take 48 rounds of Hispanno. The Mustang III is armed with .50 cals and has lots of AP rounds so maybe thats why you are getting pilot kills?

Take on the Beaufighter the same way with Mk108's DM is way off also.