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View Full Version : P-36 Hawk. Yea Or Nay



Sakai9745
12-02-2004, 08:35 AM

Sakai9745
12-02-2004, 08:35 AM
Just wanted to know - How do you guys feel on this? Been gathering some info on this bird, including photos of the cockpit of a flyable example that POF in Chino were gracious enough to let me take.

Cossack13
12-02-2004, 09:26 AM
I'm really looking forward to seeing this bird over France in 1940!

faustnik
12-02-2004, 10:43 AM
France '40 would be great with the Hawk! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

k5054
12-02-2004, 10:51 AM
French Hawks fought carrier-based Wildcats in 1942. As well as many other obscure combats. I see the AI Hawk has changed sides in the PF menus too.
Hawks fought at Pearl Harbour, in RAF service in Burma until 1943, for Finland of course, for the NL forces in Java, SAAF in Africa, and so on.It would be very handy, and an antidote to all that 1945 nonsense.

Snootles
12-02-2004, 10:57 AM
The USAAF used P-36's in the very early stage of the war with Japan. The Chinese used downrated Hawk 75M models as well.

TgD Thunderbolt56
12-02-2004, 11:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cossack13:
I'm really looking forward to seeing this bird over France in 1940! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


So are the Emils...be sure. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Ruy Horta
12-02-2004, 11:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sakai9745:
Just wanted to know - How do you guys feel on this? Been gathering some info on this bird, including photos of the cockpit of a flyable example that POF in Chino were gracious enough to let me take. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The P-36/Hawk 75A is one of my favorite a/c, not only would it serve as an early US fighter, but it was one of the main AA fighters during the Phoney War and Battle of France, it flew under Dutch flag against the Japanese, under Finnish flag against the Soviets, the Brits flew them in various theatres. Its an a/c that could be modeled on relatively short notice if the developers should choose to accept the type.

Snootles
12-02-2004, 11:23 AM
Don't forget the Chinese with 112 Hawk 75M's.

A.K.Davis
12-02-2004, 02:13 PM
Somebody is already working on the Hawk cockpit. Go to netwings.org forum. He is behind on it because of real life.

Ruy Horta
12-02-2004, 02:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A.K.Davis:
Somebody is already working on the Hawk cockpit. Go to netwings.org forum. He is behind on it because of real life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Problem is these half finished projects often lead to no a/c at all, since the original person doesn't finish it and others cannot start on it. Lot of a/c have passed the line like that.

Would be nice if they remodeled the Hawk-81 cockpit we have, which is close in scale.

berg417448
12-02-2004, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TgD Thunderbolt56:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cossack13:
I'm really looking forward to seeing this bird over France in 1940! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


So are the Emils...be sure. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


HAWKS OVER FRANCE
€œThe French campaign of 1939/40 was the Hawk's most significant combat role. It was second only to the Morane-Saulnier MS406 in numbers and was considered the best fighter in the French inventory with the exception of the Dewoitine D520 which entered service in the closing days of the campaign.

The French initially balked at buying the Hawk, considering it too expensive, but serious problems with the Bloch MB-150 gave them little option. Although the French ordered almost 300 Hawks armed with the Wright Cyclone (Hawk 75A-4) only six were delivered before the armistice, thus only Twin Wasp models saw combat.

The first delivered were 100 Hawk 75 A-1s with 950 hp R-1830-SC-G, similar to the prototype models for the USAAC. The Hawk 75 A-2, also numbering 100 machines, had R-1830-SC2-Gs offering 1,050 HP and mounted six 7.5 MM Browning machine guns, up from four in the A-1. The Hawk 75 A-3 mounted the PW R-1830-S1C3-G engine, similar to the -17 in the P-36C. Although 135 A-3s were ordered, only 60 reached France before the armistice. The A-4 mounted the 1200 HP R-1820 G205A Wright Cyclone engines, and would have been the most formidable Hawks to serve with the Armee De L' Aire, offering 323 MPH and an initial climb rate of 2820 FPM.

In all, 291 Hawk 75As reached France. Of these, 101 were operational when the Blitzkrieg began in May 1940. The Hawk's primary opponent was the Messerschmitt Bf-109E and Hawks scored the first fighter kills for France when two Bf-109s were brought down on 8 September 1939. The Hawk was not as well armed as the Bf-109 and much slower, but was more maneuverable at all speeds and could absorb more combat damage.

Four Groupes De Chasse operated the Hawk throughout the campaign, while a fifth replaced its MS-406s with it in early June. The Hawk was the most successful fighter flown by the French during the campaign. Two-Hundered thirty victories were claimed, with GC 1/5 leading with 85 confirmed and 26 probables. There were six aces in this unit alone, with the great Marin La Meslee leading with 20. The elderly MS-406 suffered heavy losses while the MB-152 -an impressive-looking aircraft with its sleek contours and wing-mounted cannon - was the least successful in combat and suffered the heaviest losses.

There has been mixed opinion on the Hawk's performance over France. While some have pointed out that it was flown by elite units, it should also be noted that the majority of Hawks in action over France were the early A-1 and A-2 models. Relatively few of the more capable A-3s, and none of the A-4s, were in service. Had the Luftwaffe had to start the war with its initial BF-109B production model, the jagdflieger would have been outclassed by the Hawk 75A-1, let alone the later models. In addition the Hawk was older in design and prototype than any of the French types, including even the MS-406 which first flew three months after the Hawk.

In a 1995 interview with World War II magazine, expatriate Czech pilot Frantisek Perina recalled the Hawk's outstanding maneuverability. It could "outmaneuver any German aircraft. If one got on your tail in one 360-degree turn you were behind him." Perina regarded the Hawk as superior to the Hurricane, which he felt was heavier on the controls.
In late 1942 Vichy-operated Hawk 75s fought US Navy Wildcats from the USS Ranger in North Africa. The Vichy Hawks came out on the short end of the stick, losing 15 for the loss of seven Wildcats. €œ

http://curtisshawk75.bravepages.com/#france

horseback
12-02-2004, 05:09 PM
I'd love to see the Hawk 75/P-36. Francis Gabreski reported that they were a delight to fly in his autobiography, his squadron transitioning from P-36s to P-40s when he was stationed at Wheeler just before the Pearl Harbor attack. He had some interesting things to say about the differences between the faster (but slower climbing) P-40 and the late model P-36s.

The RAF inherited a number of Hawks that had originally been ordered by France, and evaluated them for squadron use just prior to the Battle of Britain, finding the A-4 models more maneuverable than the Spitfire or Hurricane Mk I, but less heavily armed (the French had ordered 6x7.9mm for the armament) and slower in the dive, thus unsuitable for bomber interception. The French standard (backwards compared to US and British practice) throttling setup may also have been a factor.

Barrett Tillman's excellent work, 'F4F Wildcat in World War II', states that the Wildcat pilots who were involved in the Torch operation were already aware that the P-36/Hawk 75 was more maneuverable than the Wildcat from 'hassling' with USAAC pilots in the States, and were apprehensive about facing combat experienced French pilots in Hawks.

Fortunately, the Naval aviators appear to have had the edge in skills if not combat experience.

In any case, it'll be a hoot to fly, and a real prime candidate for a starring role in a Finnish campaign.

cheers

horseback

PB0_Roll
12-02-2004, 05:12 PM
in fact it's my most awaitied arircraft, i keep harassing the french modeler for it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

KGr.HH-Sunburst
12-02-2004, 05:18 PM
YES we need it, after the Ju88 and Me410 its on top of my list mainly because it flew for the Dutch against the Japs
and i must admit its such a nice fluffy bird http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

3.JG51_BigBear
12-02-2004, 07:10 PM
There are so many planes I want for this sim but right now I would settle for some torpedo planes. Those would round out the Pacific set a little better.

Snootles
12-02-2004, 07:14 PM
#1 priority IMO- giving the IJAAF some of their level bombers! Right now all they have is three fighters and a recon.

thegoose001
12-02-2004, 07:52 PM
YAY... OF COURSE YAY...
Ive been waiting sooooo long for the Hawk-75/P-36. Talk to the guy at Netwings who is doing the cockpit he probably could use your data and pics. especiall for the P-36 i think he said the Hawk cockpit was pretty much done

JR_Greenhorn
12-02-2004, 07:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by berg417448:
...Morane-Saulnier MS.406...Dewoitine D.520....Hawk 75A... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Its hard to say which one I want most! D.520 would probably be most wanted by me, but most work. MS.406 has been largely ignored since FB came out, but it would be nice to have flyable. Hawk 75 is the best bet for flyable and fits the most roles. I'll take whatever I can get!

Before folks whine too much about torpedo bombers, they should wait and see what the finalized patch contains. There have been several aircraft hinted at, a few confirmed, and the remaining PF planes that we were told wouldn't fit two CDs. So I'm sure there is a lot coming soon. Testing 3.02b for bugs and reporting will make the patch come faster, so get to work!

I would bet money that we won't see D.520 and MS.406 flyable in the patch, but at least Hawk 75 is a possibility.

LeadSpitter_
12-02-2004, 07:58 PM
Its a significant plane at pearl harbor and also for the battle of france both the p36 and h75. The were very good turn fighters but slow compaired to thier foes.

I been hoping these become flyable for awhile and seen progress of the pit works on netwings before they ruined that site and il2center with the stupid nda agreement not allowing to show the development process which was one of the things im sure we all enjoyed seeing. Its also let us know who modeled and textured each aircraft.

So heres to hoping for some earlywar planes planes to shootdown in emils and vice versa. Im hoping they decide to make the d.520 also which is another great modeled ai only.

duffys_tavern
12-02-2004, 08:09 PM
One big problem: we've been waiting a month, now, for the first add-on flyables, so I would imagine the Hawk might not be available until sometime mid year. But I agree I'd love to have her. Seems to me their was a beta version being tested a few months ago using a P-40 cockpit & panel.

Sakai9745
12-02-2004, 08:30 PM
Interesting that Duffy brought up a version using the P40 cockpit/panel... let's use the real one instead:

http://guardiansjustice.fcpages.com/P36C.jpg

Other pics from that day. Enjoy.

http://guardiansjustice.fcpages.com/P36A.jpg

http://guardiansjustice.fcpages.com/P36B.jpg

ElAurens
12-02-2004, 10:04 PM
I think my sig says it.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

A.K.Davis
12-02-2004, 10:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
Its a significant plane at pearl harbor and also for the battle of france both the p36 and h75. The were very good turn fighters but slow compaired to thier foes.

I been hoping these become flyable for awhile and seen progress of the pit works on netwings before they ruined that site and il2center with the stupid nda agreement not allowing to show the development process which was one of the things im sure we all enjoyed seeing. Its also let us know who modeled and textured each aircraft.

So heres to hoping for some earlywar planes planes to shootdown in emils and vice versa. Im hoping they decide to make the d.520 also which is another great modeled ai only. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

bluestone is not under any NDA contract that I'm aware of, he simply has not had time to work on it.

And his work on it does not prevent anyone else from having a go. The chance they would get anywhere near his progress before MG is no longer adding aircraft to FB/PF is very slim, however.

Best would be if there was a good modeller who wanted to collaborate with him, but egos are the main barrier there.

JR_Greenhorn
12-02-2004, 11:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sakai9745:
Other pics from that day. Enjoy.
http://guardiansjustice.fcpages.com/P36A.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Look at that F-86 in the background!

There was a Sabre at the local air musem for a short time last year. I even visited on a day when it was there. However, I ran out of time before I could see it. The curator has since told me it would be a long time before I'd ever get to see an F-86 in town again. So I'm jealous of you!

Sakai9745
12-02-2004, 11:30 PM
Believe me JR, no envy is solicited. Imagine being surrounded by those wonderful birds and not being able to climb in, hit 'I', and take one for a spin around the block. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

cam_bluestone
12-03-2004, 01:06 AM
hello!

as i said on netwings,
i still working on it on my spare time..
i will try to hurry to send it to Oleg as soon as... (but it will not be in the next patch)
if you have hires pictures sure it could be interesting (better view angle are always welcome!) and i search pictures of the new Fighters collection'hawk so..

you can send it to my mailbox :
eric.delemer@caramail.com
thanks a lot!

faustnik
12-03-2004, 01:15 AM
Thanks for your work on this Bluestone. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sakai9745
12-03-2004, 03:10 AM
Sure Blue. They were nice enough to let me on the wing, but I was still rushed. Expect that pic plus one other, both cockpit photos.

woofiedog
12-04-2004, 02:31 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif P-36... YES!
Great Picture's