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View Full Version : Real Nav At sea.WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.



RAAF-IL2_Shark
04-01-2004, 10:11 PM
On a carrier mission Nav (full Real) will rely on dead reckoning to the target and back to the carriers future predicted position for landing.
If the target is an old sighting, You will might have its course and speed, this MIGHT also even be correct!
In reality help was available in the form of radio calls from other strike and search planes, and crewmen navigators.

This could be done if the AI Radio calls included :
-Target sighting reports,including , time, Position ,speed,heading and composition

-All AI identified their flight callsign, now in online scenarios you never know which ai flight is calling.

You should be able to turn off the "GPS white plane" But leave the track lines and waypoints on your map.For a carrier mission course and speed(or time positions) of target and home carrier should be on map. (ie. the white plane and waypoints/track lines should be different selections in realism panel.)

EVEN BETTER in an online campaign Edit your waypoints if you are the flight leader.

If your aircraft has a navigator. He can update your position on the map.(Selectable in realism options.)

Hopefully this will add that "Midway Finding the target Suspence" to make FB even more challenging!!!
And you also need to wonder if you will have a Carrier to land on!!

RAAF-IL2_Shark
04-01-2004, 10:11 PM
On a carrier mission Nav (full Real) will rely on dead reckoning to the target and back to the carriers future predicted position for landing.
If the target is an old sighting, You will might have its course and speed, this MIGHT also even be correct!
In reality help was available in the form of radio calls from other strike and search planes, and crewmen navigators.

This could be done if the AI Radio calls included :
-Target sighting reports,including , time, Position ,speed,heading and composition

-All AI identified their flight callsign, now in online scenarios you never know which ai flight is calling.

You should be able to turn off the "GPS white plane" But leave the track lines and waypoints on your map.For a carrier mission course and speed(or time positions) of target and home carrier should be on map. (ie. the white plane and waypoints/track lines should be different selections in realism panel.)

EVEN BETTER in an online campaign Edit your waypoints if you are the flight leader.

If your aircraft has a navigator. He can update your position on the map.(Selectable in realism options.)

Hopefully this will add that "Midway Finding the target Suspence" to make FB even more challenging!!!
And you also need to wonder if you will have a Carrier to land on!!

F16_Petter
04-01-2004, 10:19 PM
Yes, I agree but I think that ships are spotted too late in FB 3d engine. Ships can be seen very far away if the weather is CAVOK and you have some altitude. Especially warships of size and certainly a carriergroup.

I think that ships in FB engine need another LOD to the 3d model. like it is now you can hardly see the ship, its a dot, and suddenly its a big Tirpitz.. well not really but almost!

My suggestion:
Make the ships visible longer, if the weather is ok.

http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v127/F16_Petter/sig_petter.jpg

xTHRUDx
04-01-2004, 10:49 PM
FB currently has the "ground control, give me a vector to base " command, why couldn't that be used?

Longjocks
04-01-2004, 11:07 PM
I must admit that I like the idea of being directed to target with allied sightings being radioed to me in the form of a vector or grid location.

"Thanks for the inspiration to rise above you all."

necrobaron
04-01-2004, 11:16 PM
It'd be neat to have a little pencil as a cursor(ala MS Paint) when you bring up the knee-board map to mark any locations,to make any notes,and stuff like that.

"Not all who wander are lost."

LEXX_Luthor
04-01-2004, 11:25 PM
The wakes. From high altitude the aircrew usually see the ship wakes first. If they can do some really Awsum contrails, they can do ship wakes.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif Will the contrail level for the tropics be any higher than the 7km we find over the FB? Actually, I don't know if this is true or not, but I do know the atmosphere layers in general are highest at the equator, and lowest over the poles, with intermediate levels between equator and poles.

JG7_Rall
04-02-2004, 05:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by necrobaron:
It'd be neat to have a little pencil as a cursor(ala MS Paint) when you bring up the knee-board map to mark any locations,to make any notes,and stuff like that.

"Not all who wander are lost."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Best idea I've heard all day! Please impliment this!

http://home.comcast.net/~nate.r/InGallantCompany.jpg
"Son, never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll let you know. If he isn't, don't embarrass him."
Badges!? We don't needs no stinkin' badges!

mike_espo
04-02-2004, 09:31 PM
Didnt most aircraft have df equipment? Kinda like the repeater compass we have already?

"Fatte vede che ridemo!"http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

necrobaron
04-02-2004, 10:57 PM
Bumpsy-poo

"Not all who wander are lost."

heywooood
04-03-2004, 12:05 AM
This is another really good thread !

Everyone has good practical concerns about how this is going to look.

How to get your flight to the target - ready room plotting of course and speed of the enemy fleet based on scout aircraft sparse radio comm.. sometimes unreliable.. Radio vectors once airborne based on new information or.. flying a search grid as fuel allows.

Then - successful or not - you have to get the flight back to the carrier or island base.
Obviously, this will all have to be scalable..so dead reckoning.. with brief radio contact.. search grid looking for wakes?.. or an RDF signal?..

Man - what a huge job to programm all of this and to fit all the code as best as possible and compromise as little as possible to please us easygoing understanding highly sympathetic fans.. oooh.

I will buy it out of respect for the effort alone.

necrobaron
04-03-2004, 12:11 AM
That'd be cool,Heywooood. I like the idea of more stylized and detailed mission briefings and plotting courses and such.

"Not all who wander are lost."

heywooood
04-03-2004, 12:19 AM
Yes.. I'm not sure too much can be added to the briefings - since this is an "enhanced" engine - but a good characterization of the plotting room -glass map wall- etched range grid on it - some grease pencil lines representing enemy's approx. or "last known" position, strength etc.. then the usual text laying out the objective and arming/strength of your squad etc.. hmmm

RAAF-IL2_Shark
04-03-2004, 05:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xTHRUDx:
FB currently has the "ground control, give me a vector to base " command, why couldn't that be used?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To avoid giving away their position the carrier wont transmit. (emcon)
Its there in fb to make nav easier, even though its a bit unrealistic.( Radar wasnt that good then and nobody had transponders!!)

mike_espo
04-03-2004, 01:06 PM
I know the Zeros did'nt have RDF equipment, the Kates had to navigate and the zeros followed, So some form of RD equipment existed at that time. Otherwise, how could you find a carrier group that would be changing course, and moving at 25+knots unless radio was used?

I do agree, that using a radio call to get a vector to the carrier is unrealistic, but a beam riding device like the repeater compass would be OK.

"Fatte vede che ridemo!"http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

RAAF-IL2_Shark
04-03-2004, 04:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mike_espo:
I know the Zeros did'nt have RDF equipment, the Kates had to navigate and the zeros followed, So some form of RD equipment existed at that time. Otherwise, how could you find a carrier group that would be changing course, and moving at 25+knots unless radio was used?

I do agree, that using a radio call to get a vector to the carrier is unrealistic, but a beam riding device like the repeater compass would be OK.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As i understand it when earley War USN strike packages launched they were given a location and course/speed for their Carrier at the time of their predicted recovery.I think this was called "Point Option".
Earley on Carrier groups operated under electronic blackout and would not transmit ANYTHING as RDF was used by everyone.
Once they were located and later in the war cap fighters were radio directed, and homing beacons may have been used when necessary.

Anyone one have more details?

heywooood
04-03-2004, 04:21 PM
Espo ? as in Esposito? Tony and Phil's brother?

Sorry - just another OT hockey reference..

Yes - The Japanese had two choices - A really crappy radio or.. no radio at all.!

Our radio's were better than theirs.. who these days would beleive it.

Many times their fighters without radios would become separated from the bombers which I beleive only the commanders plane had a radio?.. and they would be lost.. literally.

At least - in Daniel Fords book Flying Tigers - he refers to this and something else strange - he says that during combat.. it seemed that the Japanese radio operator on the radio equiped plane would call out in english to the american pilots "Go Home Return to your base please" over and over.. Sandy Sandell and
R T Smith both claimed to have heard it.

heywooood
04-03-2004, 04:34 PM
As i understand it when earley War USN strike packages launched they were given a location and course/speed for their Carrier at the time of their predicted recovery.I think this was called "Point Option".
Earley on Carrier groups operated under electronic blackout and would not transmit ANYTHING as RDF was used by everyone.
Once they were located and later in the war cap fighters were radio directed, and homing beacons may have been used when necessary.

Anyone one have more details?[/QUOTE]

I like the "Point Option" but what if the task force hase to evade a sub (or just has a sighting).. Now the chances of them being at the rendezvous is slim.
And how do the returning squads plot the rendesvous after combat and without a GPS?..
I like the idea of an RDF set to blink at a specific time for a specific length of time as an acceptable method - but as to the actual recovery process unless someone knows what it was and unless it can be modeled in such a way that it works in the sim..whatever works will have to do.

huggy87
04-03-2004, 04:48 PM
Hellcats actually had a "desk" that would fold down in the cockpit with a maneuvering board plotting device for navigation.

heywooood
04-03-2004, 05:10 PM
Well - there you go - Good stuff Huggy..

Anybody else have anything like that?..
Ilove this place.

mike_espo
04-03-2004, 08:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
Espo ? as in Esposito? Tony and Phil's brother?

Sorry - just another OT hockey reference..

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Esposito is correct. Yes, I do know the Esposito brothers. No relation though. Its a common Neopolitan name. I live in Chicago. You must be in your 40s to remember the Esposito's!! LOL. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Fatte vede che ridemo!"http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

heywooood
04-03-2004, 11:32 PM
Just an old goalie that emulated Tony Esposito's style or borrowed one or two things from it.. hahaha


Yeah there are many Espositos - knew a few in Ontario when I lived there, all very good friends.

and I'll be 39 for another 5 or 6 years yet dammit.

mike_espo
04-04-2004, 08:53 AM
LOL! me too!!
"Fatte vede che ridemo!"http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg