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vanjast
11-28-2005, 06:41 AM
Following a few threads and the game. I'm sure the game is tooo easy as I've completed 9 patrols and my tonnage is sitting at 475K and historically leading, ole Kretschmer is around 160K (I'm not sure how many patrols he's been on at this stage).

I vaguely remember seeing somewhere that a 30K (5 or 6 ships) patrol was considered to be halluva good.
Maybe we should try mod to history (ie: escorts being fairly competent from the start of WW2)

Rub1.43b gun/ship damage mode is fairly good (takes about 20-30 AP shells to down a ship)

Comments or links.

Admiral-Napalm
11-28-2005, 07:12 AM
It's not a case of it being "too easy", I don't think. You're forgetting that in real life, if you lost, you died. So obviously they take less risks then we do when we play the game.
Imagine playing the game like in real life, where the first time it was game over you could never play again. I wonder if that would change the way you played?
Also, how many patrols in TOTAL have you been on. I don't mean just the 9, I mean from playing the game from the start? Hundreds maybe? Some of these guys were doing 5 patrols for their whole career. So imagine how you did on your first patrols when you bought the game...I bet you didn't sink much.
In real life you don't have the save game option, new career or time compression. That helps...a lot! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tatarjj
11-28-2005, 07:21 AM
I think the problem lies not only in the points mentioned already, but in the fact that ships are SOOO numerous in this game. Convoys are everywhere, even with RUB.

Baldricks_Mate
11-28-2005, 07:38 AM
I too shrug my shoulders at a war career of a gazillion tonnes. However, beware...fiddling with escorts is not the answer to this historical accuracy issue. AI is limited; it is artificial. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

There were way too few Allied escorts and their gear was sub standard and for a long time too. Thats why it was called "Happy Days". The answer is more along the lines of ship spawning quantities, size and type along with convoy size and frequency. I don't know if that level of code can be fiddled with accurately.

For a rough idea you could look at the monthly breakdown of the number of U Boats sunk Vs Allied shipping sunk.

If you want hard escorts, cool, its your game! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Might I suggest you also try: Turn off Gods Eye Mode & Map Contact Updates, crank up the level of difficulty another notch in the options (use only WO's solutions; get rid of auto targeting), ending your career after 10 or so patrols, then start another new one in the year you finish the previous career. Rotate your experienced crew off the boat continually. Use a pair of dice; odds, evens, multiples of 3 means do this, etc. Always go to your patrol zone and don't go off chasing ships all over. BDU did not like loose cannons. Create your own mission orders (in lieu of additional permissions/directives from BDU, that don't exist in the game parameters) in addition to the patrol grid directive. Unless its for a true tactical reason, don't pass up on a Coastal because you know the game might spawn a T3. The "accuracy" will come not only from the Mod code but way in which you choose to conduct your career. Unfortunately it is hard to brag when you play like that because the only check and balance you have is your own "honourable" intent. The next guy can say "yeah, I do that" and he don't which seems to publically devalue your efforts when exchanging stories on the forum. But the truth will out eventually..

I don't run mods as such but I have fiddled a little with some code to tweak the escorts, weather etc. I picked up the hints on the forum but I am sure any number of members can clue you in on mods like Commander, etc but then the mods have their own bias built in that doesn't always reflect accuracy, too. In the end my code fiddling did not make the game harder really, not like I hoped, just more...umm...personalised.

Its a game! Thats the best thing about it. Play it Your way

Good luck! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

B_M

vanjast
11-28-2005, 08:48 AM
yo dudes...
Nah! I realise all the bits and pieces going into the 'conflict'. I would have been trained for years prior to been given a Uboat command, so would have the escorts (AI is not that good - but this depends of the game setting).

When I'm in the middle of a Convoy battle, if I feel full of s.h.i-t, I save the game, saying I would not normally do this, but let's test the AI. I always come off second best. So essentially without been to adventurous, I have not yet 'died' as such, yet.

I think the problem that is making it easy is the escort placements, as I'm able to come in on a bearing of 45 or 315 no problem. And the escort AI settings, they should probably be set to hard from the start, so that the escorts just like to pound you into the seabed.

I would if I was an escort commander. I'd sit around for days waiting for you to pop your ugly little periscope up.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

paulhager
11-28-2005, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by vanjast:
Following a few threads and the game. I'm sure the game is tooo easy as I've completed 9 patrols and my tonnage is sitting at 475K and historically leading, ole Kretschmer is around 160K (I'm not sure how many patrols he's been on at this stage).

I vaguely remember seeing somewhere that a 30K (5 or 6 ships) patrol was considered to be halluva good.
Maybe we should try mod to history (ie: escorts being fairly competent from the start of WW2)

Rub1.43b gun/ship damage mode is fairly good (takes about 20-30 AP shells to down a ship)

Comments or links.

In all my various careers, I only reached the fabled 100K patrol once, and that was because I got good weather in an early 1940 patrol, was able to kill the lone escort of a large convoy and use the deck gun on the individual ships.

For me, a very good patrol is around 50K. I think this is because, other than shots on small/coastal freighters or escorts, I nearly always fire spreads. I want sure kills. I also don't want to be killed.

I recently started a new career (I thought I was going to swear-off after doing Altmeier) and am on patrol in a VII-B in Oct 1940. I stumbled onto a TF centered on a Revenge BB - it had 7 escorts. It was night and perfectly clear - I got good position outside the screen. However, that meant the shot would be at around 5000 meters. Naturally, I fired a spread of 4 and then turned tail. One torpedo pre-detonated and two missed - behind, I think. One detonated under the keel, far back on the stern, but it was a mortal hit. Escape was easy because of how far away I was. So, it took 4 torps to get the kill.

Some folks might have tried to get inside the screen - I probably could have - and gone for a one-shot kill. Assuming one shot did it - and I lucked out given I only got one hit - then they'd have 7 escorts all over them. How likely would escape be? In late 1940, at night, it might work but why take the risk?

For what it's worth, in this account (http://www.watersideweb.co.uk/Barham/Sunk.htm) of the sinking of the Barham by the U-331, the shot WAS made from inside the screen at a little over 1000 meters. Three of his four torpedos hit and then the U-331 was able to escape but not before it took a pounding from DC's. You'll notice that the U-331 dove to 250 meters to escape!

The_Silent_O
11-28-2005, 10:33 AM
Just from reading various books and playing this game:

1) Gamers tend to use the deck gun too much; reality was that the deck gun was too inaccurate and that it took MANY shells to sink a large tanker or cargo. Even shelled burnt out tankers were brought back into port for repair. It's easy for a gamer to coolly fire at a cargo, even though it's returning fire, but try doing under real fire and awash decks.

2) Auto targeting is a give-away. Don't get me wrong here, it's a great step in learning the game. But once you go to manual targeting in rough weather then you will miss shots, about every other one. Now throw in duds and you will be getting more realistic results. Throw in darkness and this all gets worse.

3) Even with auto targeting, human error is not represented well in the game. Launching a torpedo involved many hands and minds. Even though the captain may have perfect data, the topedomen still have to set the torpedo for depth and fuse it. The weapons officer has to manually enter all the data. And Not all C2 and C3 have the same draft or mast height. In real life much guessing was involved and I suspect it was more of an Art than a Science. (With manual targeting, I find myself using the "Art" in many situations by going to manual overide on the TDC and entering all the data by guesswork).

paulhager
11-28-2005, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by The_Silent_O:
Just from reading various books and playing this game:

1) Gamers tend to use the deck gun too much; reality was that the deck gun was too inaccurate and that it took MANY shells to sink a large tanker or cargo. Even shelled burnt out tankers were brought back into port for repair. It's easy for a gamer to coolly fire at a cargo, even though it's returning fire, but try doing under real fire and awash decks.

True enough. Although I've found that the opportunities to actually use the deck gun are pretty limited. However, since the deck gun is in the game, I'll use it.

I did enjoy playing the VII-C's without a deck gun. In any case, the deck gun isn't terribly useful after early 1941.



2) Auto targeting is a give-away. Don't get me wrong here, it's a great step in learning the game. But once you go to manual targeting in rough weather then you will miss shots, about every other one. Now throw in duds and you will be getting more realistic results. Throw in darkness and this all gets worse.

Throughout the Altmeier series, I think I probably averaged between 30K and 40K a patrol. Of course, I had homing torps and ladder-searchers in 1944. It was easy to get hits on lone merchants from in close - obviously lone merchants would have been extremely rare in reality.

In convoy attacks, I think my hit percentage runs around 50% if I can get in reasonably close.




3) Even with auto targeting, human error is not represented well in the game. Launching a torpedo involved many hands and minds. Even though the captain may have perfect data, the topedomen still have to set the torpedo for depth and fuse it. The weapons officer has to manually enter all the data. And Not all C2 and C3 have the same draft or mast height. In real life much guessing was involved and I suspect it was more of an Art than a Science. (With manual targeting, I find myself using the "Art" in many situations by going to manual overide on the TDC and entering all the data by guesswork).

Once I computing the "lead" angles for all the various speeds at 90 AOB, I had a better "eye" for making shots. Get the speed and angle, throw in a spread of 1.0 or 2.0 and Los.

I think once sonar is available, the ideal attack condition is when the weather is low visibility. Take 2 or 3 readings to get course and speed, then fire a FaT spread right into the center of the Convoy, where the Tankers are. An attack from 3000-5000 meters works nicely. The worse the wave action, the less likely the escorts will react if you limit your pings.

Don't know how realistic that is but, once again, the game does allow it.

HeibgesU999
11-28-2005, 01:52 PM
Biggest problem is overuse of the hydrophones.

In WWII, most contacts were established visually. Yet in SH3 basically you can go to sea for a couple of weeks, do 6 sound checks a day, and shoot until you run out of torps.

I guarantee, if you do not use the hydrophones for routines searching for targets, but find your targets visually, that you will have spot on historical looking careers.

This proves true in AotD, SH2, and SH3.

I have a 10 patrol career going where I have sank only 69k grt, and one third of the patrols I have not spotted anything.

If you want realistic careers, just use the hydrophones in a realistic manner.

acetoolguy
11-28-2005, 07:36 PM
Like any sim, you have to find a balance between realisim and playability. If reviewers sat in front of their 'puters for hours waiting for something to happen they would rip the game.

Dominicrigg
11-29-2005, 07:08 AM
All good points!

I would add to the above if you want realistic patrols do the following :

<LI> Only load externals when you are stationary and the sea is less then 5m/s. You cannot move throughout loading them. (some patrols this may result in going home with torps, a hint is to go near the shore and the sea gets calmer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif as they did in real life!) If you do get attacked and have to dive then count the torps as lost, as they would be lost overboard.

<LI> Dont use the external camera to increase your situational awareness (eg no checking if escorts are there or not ect, or if you missed to the front or rear with the torp, or looking out in bays for ships)

<LI> Patrol the grid you are given till time to go home, not 24 hours but the full patrol as they did in real life. If you get convoy messages of course you can go to these if they are within range.

<LI> Play on as full realism as you can cope, manual targeting brings in human error and no more ludicrous 4000 metres hits on escorts. Playing 100% makes a MASSIVE difference as you are virtually blind when submerged (and its suprisingly fun and scary !!)

<LI> Never save just before a fight, and if you are killed start a new career (this makes you more cautious and increases the tension, which for me =fun!).

<LI>Dont promote deck gun crew or flak gunners to expert levels, as they become too good and will shoot everything lol. Man the guns manually when you can. Also dont use the sight on the deck gun. Fire it from the first view (this makes shooting harder at distance, no more sniping escorts at 5000 metres)

<LI> Ignore single radio contacts as these are too numerous (or find a way to mod them out) only go to the convoy contacts.

Most of those are rules i follow, but i keep the free camera but only use it for photos, never to scout out ect.

Of course more important then all these "rules" is the fact you are here to have fun, so if you enjoy it the way you play carry on, if these rules spoil the game for you then dont use them of course.

Also dont mistake my post for thinking any less of anyone who plays any other way. Each to his own!


With these rules i have never got near a 100k patrol. Which im glad of really. Also i use a type VII so it would be very hard to sink that much tonnage. I have had an 80k patrol, but this had been done in real life, also my careers are all realistic amounts.

I seem to have careers like the gung ho submariners of the early war. Short and burning brightly, so i need to be more cautious to survive longer http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Iver1943
11-29-2005, 07:57 AM
This is very good information http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

All Sims that I have played leave much of the realisum to the player. It is up to the player if they use an ability in the game or not.

I have my limits in ability and so far I have not been able to manage manual targeting. I keep trying but I just don't get it. I've tried the helps that are out there, but...
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

My other problem is sooooo much bad weather.

Baldricks_Mate how did you mod the weather???
I have not found a file to alter, for the weather.

paulhager
11-29-2005, 08:25 AM
Originally posted by Iver1943:
This is very good information http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

All Sims that I have played leave much of the realisum to the player. It is up to the player if they use an ability in the game or not.

I have my limits in ability and so far I have not been able to manage manual targeting. I keep trying but I just don't get it. I've tried the helps that are out there, but...
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

My other problem is sooooo much bad weather.

Baldricks_Mate how did you mod the weather???
I have not found a file to alter, for the weather.

One thing I found indispensable for manual targeting is my lead-angle table. Since I like to conduct sonar only attacks once the technology becomes available (it makes bad weather your friend), the main task becomes figuring the course and the speed. Once you have those data, all you need to do is put yourself at 90 degress to the course. The offset or lead angle is unaffected by distance (though you get accurate distance information whenever you ping). The standard speeds-offsets I have memorized but the table is available for everything else. With this info in hand, you just set the torp running depth, straight run (if a ladder search), and gyro-angle zero. Then you let fly when the angle is right. Of course, you could enter the additional data into the TDC but the table works fine.

Note, when I use sonar, I start with a double ping: the estimated range first then the exact second. Otherwise, I get ranging errors which screw up course/speed calculations.

The_Silent_O
11-29-2005, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by paulhager:

Note, when I use sonar, I start with a double ping: the estimated range first then the exact second. Otherwise, I get ranging errors which screw up course/speed calculations.

Considering what the game gives you already...a gray line that gives you the distance and angle of a hydrophone contact, why would you use a sonar ping.

Unless I'm mistaken you can get the distance and angle right off that gray line without ever having to ping the sonar device.

I'm still playing with map updates...does the gray line go away if I turn this feature off?

paulhager
11-29-2005, 08:31 AM
ADDENDUM on sonar-only:

In the Altmeier story, I documented a 9400 meter shot I took. Didn't get a "torpedo impact" but, significantly, it was because one of the torps in the spread I fired was a dud and failed to go off - this in 1944! So, you can actually get long-range hits using sonar - if your torpedos don't fail you.

paulhager
11-29-2005, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by The_Silent_O:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by paulhager:

Note, when I use sonar, I start with a double ping: the estimated range first then the exact second. Otherwise, I get ranging errors which screw up course/speed calculations.

Considering what the game gives you already...a gray line that gives you the distance and angle of a hydrophone contact, why would you use a sonar ping.

Unless I'm mistaken you can get the distance and angle right off that gray line without ever having to ping the sonar device.

I'm still playing with map updates...does the gray line go away if I turn this feature off? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The gray line/red line gets turned off. Hardly seems fair... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

The other problem is that escorts WILL react to pings, as happened to me on several occasions. Bad weather attacks are least likely to attract the escorts if you limit your pings.

paulhager
11-29-2005, 08:39 AM
More on sonar-only:

I suppose that folks who like to use hydrophone/sonar (I rely heavily on it) will find that you have to pick a target and get data on it, which means ignoring potential threats, such as escorts. Make sure to get your data fast and then have your operator listen for "nearest warship". Otherwise, you'll get no reports until the DC's start dropping on you. This is a non-optimal outcome.

Admiral-Napalm
11-29-2005, 08:51 AM
Also, if you want to play more like real life: Don't wash for 2 weeks, eat really badly and sleep on the floor for a few hours every night. Then, go under the shower fully dressed and take the computer into the shed. Oh...and don't forget to invite round a big hairy sailor who winks at you all the time.
NOWlet's see you sink half a million tons.

paulhager
11-29-2005, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by Admiral-Napalm:
Also, if you want to play more like real life: Don't wash for 2 weeks, eat really badly and sleep on the floor for a few hours every night. Then, go under the shower fully dressed and take the computer into the shed. Oh...and don't forget to invite round a big hairy sailor who winks at you all the time.
NOWlet's see you sink half a million tons.

Obviously, what is needed is full VR with direct computer-neural data connection. Then you can experience all the sights, sounds, sensations, and smells of a U-boat. Might even experience your own "death". I fully expect that when this technology becomes available, it will be heavily regulated by the government - probably legal ONLY for government/military personnel. It'll be deemed "too dangerous" and "too easy to abuse" for us great unwashed to use. The precendent for such regulation will be the drug laws. For my thoughts on the constitutionality of such regulation, I recommend The Drug War and the Constitution (http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~hagerp/drug_con.html), which is a transcript of a speech I gave at Indiana University as part of a panel on that subject back in 1991. In essence, the argument is that the drug laws involve government regulation of cognitive states. VR will easily be seen as a close analogue of psychoactive drugs.

Remember where you read it first.

Baldricks_Mate
11-29-2005, 12:37 PM
Baldricks_Mate how did you mod the weather???
I have not found a file to alter, for the weather.

I was fiddling but I don't know what I did. It seemed to me that the weather was greyer actually but not as rough. Unfortunately the sea/sky colour looked off too. I was fiddling with "someones" (can't recall but there is/was one around) sky mod that was available as well as a bunch of others too. The game became quite unstable and in the end required a re install but I had made a lot of changes. I then learnt the value of backing up before changing stuff. Doh!

No "so and so's" mods now, just 1.4 & a few tweaks by me.

Although I have learnt a lot more about code/settings since owning SH3, a little knowlege is a dangerous thing indeed. I really shouldn't be allowed to do it without a minder!

Iver1943
11-29-2005, 07:26 PM
Thanksk for the response Mate... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

TheRealWulfmann
11-29-2005, 08:58 PM
I agree the tonnage is way to excessive compared to reality.

What I did was to reduce the displacement of the ships as follows
Serg€s cargo; 4,400
Serg€s Transport 3800
T3 9800
T2 5400
Small tanker 3400
C3 5500
C2 4000
small and coastal cargo as they were.
But, even with this reduction my average is still double Kretschmer€s 16,000 tons per patrol mine being about 30K ave..
My best with this method was 55K but half of that was a Revenge battleship. I recently had a 46K patrol that would have been 118,000 tons had I used the usual displacements.
I play at 100% so have no God€s eye view or outside ability to cheat.
I use the reduced gun rate so fighting even a trawler would be suicide as was real.
I edited all the escorts to 3 or 4 (veteran or elite)
I increased the number of escorts so that 5 is the least possible and as the war goues on 8-10 can appear. (Early is half trawlers with DCs)
The lack of equipment is already included so making the crews morons early is hardly accurate. Many U-Boats were lost in the €œHappy Times€ but after mid 43 the loses were staggering
Dead means start over.
Whatever makes you happy is the right way but I find this is so much more challenging.
It was very possible to be sunk early and the fact you almost can€t be is as bad as 1944 where you almost can not survive at all.
I reduced the air formation sizes so they are mostly one plane but I still can€t get past early 1944 with the once dead and I have never made it through at 100% ever.
Kaleuns retired after 15 patrols or so and most top aces survived the war. They would not have had they kept going to sea until the end.
I often hear people complain they never get good depth charging. I have survived 3 hours of constant attacks and have died in as long. Those are the most intense and satisfying part of my virtual Das Boot!!
If I had not increased the difficulty I would have been bored by now and doing something else.
Wulfmann

vanjast
11-29-2005, 11:29 PM
Well, now I'm much happier...

It seems that the game has woken up...
I've been grinded by the escorts, DC'ed for a minimum of an hour each time I sink a ship. I only have time for that first strike and must immediately dive DEEP (~150m). I been damaged 3 times, luckily all superficial. I cannot just surface around the corner and go for the convoy - I have to get away from the convoy route to escape (Ah! reality suks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). I've actually had to retire from attacking a convoy with those 'radar' sets, as it was tooo dangerooos.

I've now had to rethink my convoy attack tactics.

This is so cool
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

doug.d
11-30-2005, 04:46 AM
No no no NO! The tonnages are way too LOW, MUCH MORE IS NEEDED! Have you forgotten that Kretch and the boys (all due respect), FAILED to cut Britain's lifelines and the war was lost!

More tonnage I say, MORE TONNAGE!!!! Come on boys, we can still win this one!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif