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jermin122
01-16-2006, 12:19 AM
It is all know that in the game Mk 5 hispano requires much smaller lead angle than MG 151. But from the statistics I collected from Internet, I found the muzzle velocity of 151 is 950m/s (15mm version, mounted on F4) and 800m/s(20mm), but that of Mk 5 hispano is only 720m/s. This indicates that 151 should has smalller lead angle than hispano, not like in the game. The same problem is with MK 108, whose muzzle velocity should be 540m/s, but the lead angle required for 108 is super big in the game.

Regardless of the fire power issue, Oleg should really check this out. It makes 151, 108 more difficult to perform a deflection hit than hispano.

If there is anyting wrong in my words, plesse rectify me.

I/JG53_jermin

jermin122
01-16-2006, 12:19 AM
It is all know that in the game Mk 5 hispano requires much smaller lead angle than MG 151. But from the statistics I collected from Internet, I found the muzzle velocity of 151 is 950m/s (15mm version, mounted on F4) and 800m/s(20mm), but that of Mk 5 hispano is only 720m/s. This indicates that 151 should has smalller lead angle than hispano, not like in the game. The same problem is with MK 108, whose muzzle velocity should be 540m/s, but the lead angle required for 108 is super big in the game.

Regardless of the fire power issue, Oleg should really check this out. It makes 151, 108 more difficult to perform a deflection hit than hispano.

If there is anyting wrong in my words, plesse rectify me.

I/JG53_jermin

Jetbuff
01-16-2006, 12:34 AM
Muzzle velocity is only part of the equation. Lighter, less aerodynamic rounds will lose speed a lot faster than heavier more 'pointy' projectiles.

Also, are you sure about those numbers? I have completely different numbers according to this source:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html

WOLFMondo
01-16-2006, 12:56 AM
The only MkV Hispano is on the Tempest AI model. All the others are MKII's. The MkV muzzle velocity is 840 m/s too. Probably the best 20mm of WW2.

jermin122
01-16-2006, 01:00 AM
Just presume your statistics is correct. 151's muzzle velocity is 700~750 and hispano's is 750. But I dont see big difference between these figures. However in the game 151 requires more than 2 time lead angle than hispano does. Is it possible?

PS: I usually fire at less than 200m in my 109.

And what's more, the 108 muzzle velocity in that page is 600-650, which is a little higher than my stats. This nuber is very close to 151, but in the game you can clearly see the diffrence.

jermin122
01-16-2006, 01:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WOLFMondo:
The only MkV Hispano is on the Tempest AI model. All the others are MKII's. The MkV muzzle velocity is 840 m/s too. Probably the best 20mm of WW2. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

MK II is much slower than 151. I dont quite familiar with spit. Then whats the cannon mounted on spitfire?

HayateAce
01-16-2006, 01:39 AM
Yes I agree with you, the 151 is much simpler to hit with than the Hispano. Luftnards were getting shot down too much online so oleg adjusted for gameplay.

G A M E P L A Y

jermin122
01-16-2006, 02:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Luftnards were getting shot down too much </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that true? One spit now can T&B 5 German fighters without any problem. Everytime I encounter a spit at the same altitude my first manuever is bound to be split-s, then dive and escape. Flying spit requies only 1/10 skills than that of German fighters. That is why so many people prefer German fighters. Balance the game like this will only make spitfire a beginner's plane.

If Marseille flew the 109 F4 in the game to fight spitfire V, He would had been dead for millions of times.

robban75
01-16-2006, 03:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Luftnards were getting shot down too much </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that true? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good heavens no! HayateAce just has a lot of biased opinions. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

csThor
01-16-2006, 04:22 AM
Small correction robban - Haya is the personification of bias http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ImpStarDuece
01-16-2006, 04:24 AM
Some figures for comparison:


Muzzle Velocity for Mk II Hispano

Ball: 880 m/sec
SAPI ammo: 870 m/sec
HEI/T ammo: 860 m/sec
AP Mk 2: 810 m/sec

M/V for Mk V Hispano

SAPI ammo: 780 m/sec
HEI/T ammo: 760 m/sec
AP Mk 4v: 800 m/sec

M/V for MG 151/15mm

AP ammo : 860 m/sec
AP40 ammo (special): 1030 m/sec
HE ammo; 950 m/sec

M/V for MG 151/20mm

AP ammo; 720 m/sec
HEI ammo: 750 m/sec
Minengeschoss ammo: 755 m/sec
Minengeschoss XM ammo: 705 m/sec

M/V for Mk 108 30mm

HEI; 505 m/sec
Minengeschoss: 500 m/sec
Incendiary: 500 m/sec

M/V for 20mm ShVAK

HEI/T ammo: 770 m/sec
API ammo: 790 m/sec

M2 Browning .50cal

Ball ammo: 890 m/sec
AP ammo: 880 m/sec
Tracer ammo: 870 m/sec
API(M8) ammo: 870 m/sec

Keep in mind these are approximates and averages, and figures sway by approximately +/- 20 m/sec per round. Sources vary, mostly y about 10 m/sec, but sometimes by up to 40 m/sec, so I have used an average of the most common figures.

The MG 151/15 and MG 151/20 generally fire a much lighter round than the Hispano, at somewhat similar M/V. The Hispano generally fired a 125-135 gram round. The Mg 151/15 fired rounds weighing between 52 and 72 grams, and the MG 151/20 fired rounds between 95-115 grams.

Given that the Hispano Mk II fires a heavier round at a similar velocity to the MG 151/15 and slightly faster than the MG 151/20, its unsuprising that the round retains its energy better and is more effective further out.

For example, without adding additional plane velocity, a MG 151/20 Minengeschoss round leaves the barrel at ~750 m/sec. By 300m out that round is doing ~485 m/sec and has taken .5 of a second to get there. A HEI round fired from a Hispano Mk II leaves the barrel at ~860 m/ses. By 300m out, that round is doing ~675 m/sec and has taken .4 of a second to get there.

nakamura_kenji
01-16-2006, 04:44 AM
japanese cannon figure comparison for

Ho-5 (Type 2)

caliber 20 x 94
round weight 96g
Rate of Fire 750-850
round speed 715m/s
gun weight 37kg

Type 99-1

caliber 20 x 72RB
round weight 129g
Rate of Fire 520
round speed 525m/s
gun weight 26kg

Type 99-2

caliber 20 x 101RB
round weight 128g
Rate of Fire 490
round speed 750m/s
gun weight 34kg

jermin122
01-16-2006, 04:53 AM
Yes, but in the game the performances vary a lot. Like I said, 151 requires more than 2 times larger lead angle than hispano. And firing at less than 300m away form the target, the distinction should be very minor. As you said, 108's M/V is about 500m/s, it's just 200m/s less than 151's. And I don't think any skilled luftwaffe pilot would fire 108 cannon out of 250m(for me, it's less than 200m), but its performance in the game is definitely awful.

WOLFMondo
01-16-2006, 05:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:


MK II is much slower than 151. I dont quite familiar with spit. Then whats the cannon mounted on spitfire? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The MkII is faster than the MG151/20, the MkV is slower than the MkII but still faster than the MG151/20 if you compare the most optimistic data from both guns. All Spitfires have MkII's, all the planes in FB have MkII's. The Tempest V series II has MkV's.

I think one very late model Spitfire had MkV's and the Meteor had MkV's too.

JG53Frankyboy
01-16-2006, 06:04 AM
here are some old dates used in game - as i said, these dates are old ! few know if they are still in use.


Hispano-Suiza Mk.I
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.129
speed = 860.0
power = 0.012

AP
mass = 0.124
speed = 860.0
power = 0

MG 151
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.057
speed = 960.0
power = 0.0019

AP
mass = 0.072
speed = 859.0
power = 0

MG 151/20
// APIT - HE - HE - MG - MG
APIT
mass = 0.115
speed = 710.0
power = 0.0036

HE
mass = 0.115
speed = 705.0
power = 0.0044

MG
mass = 0.092
speed = 775.0
power = 0.0186

tigertalon
01-16-2006, 07:05 AM
I agree with jermin. In game Mg151/20 shells seem much slower than hispano. Much.

I dunno how it affects gameplay, I want them to behave as close to IRL as it can get.

One interesting thing is observing a spitfires fire. Seems like their bright hispano rounds are overtaking red light MG tracers with at least twice the speed.

SUPERAEREO
01-16-2006, 07:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:

Given that the Hispano Mk II fires a heavier round at a similar velocity to the MG 151/15 and slightly faster than the MG 151/20, its unsuprising that the round retains its energy better and is more effective further out.

For example, without adding additional plane velocity, a MG 151/20 Minengeschoss round leaves the barrel at ~750 m/sec. By 300m out that round is doing ~485 m/sec and has taken .5 of a second to get there. A HEI round fired from a Hispano Mk II leaves the barrel at ~860 m/ses. By 300m out, that round is doing ~675 m/sec and has taken .4 of a second to get there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


It seems pretty clear to me...


S!

JtD
01-16-2006, 09:01 AM
I once did that test:

http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/fbg/range.html

Think it's still valid. 2xlead in FB is not true, even though I agree you seem to need a lot less lead with the Hispano.

Btw, I find German planes a lot easier to fly successfully, and I think they are so popular because they are so easy to master and yet have a big lobby that suggests it's so darn hard to do. Last time I seriously tried the FW I got a killstreak of 163 and last time I flew the 109 for fun I ended up with 100/1 K/D.

Like a challenge - fly US. And no, vs. Japanese is not what I meant.

Kocur_
01-16-2006, 09:04 AM
jermin122! Velocity of projectile has non-linear impact on lead angle. Even more importantly AFAIK we dont have any mean to measure lead angles. Anyway it should be noticeably easier to hit target moving agularly in your FOV with Hispano Mk.II than MG151/20.

tigertalon
01-16-2006, 09:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
Btw, I find German planes a lot easier to fly successfully, and I think they are so popular because they are so easy to master and yet have a big lobby that suggests it's so darn hard to do. Last time I seriously tried the FW I got a killstreak of 163 and last time I flew the 109 for fun I ended up with 100/1 K/D.

Like a challenge - fly US. And no, vs. Japanese is not what I meant. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed, true aces are the ones who are succsessfuly flying US planes vs Luftwaffe in 4.02.

Kocur_
01-16-2006, 09:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
I once did that test:
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

JtD! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif Great work, in both meanings! Wish I knew about it before!

Let me add two bits: as much as UB advantage is ridiculous, 12,7 x 107mm ammo was a bit more powerful than .50 BMG. And: till today you probably know all you ever wanted about "PWU", but just in case: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Polish%20Guns.htm

jermin122
01-16-2006, 09:29 AM
can't open your link, please check it out.

100/1 K/D? R u kidding? I'd like to know which server you were playing at and what planes you usually fly. Did you fly alone or in companion? and which 109 you were flying and what are the enemy aircrafts?

You can go and try F4 vs spitfire V and G2 VS spitfire VIII in Chinese server DOF:sky.dof.cn:21000. You'll see how easily the spitfire sweep off those 109s.

Anyhow, 190 and 109 shouldn't be "easy to master" planes. I'm sure you wouldn't say such words if you had read about the 190 and 109 tatics. In my opinion, it's spit that is the AC so easy to master. One of my squad mate has once alone got 11 109s/190s shot down within three flights duing a single mission at WC and turnfighted with 3 109s and 2 190s and finally shot down 3 of them and drove away the other 2. Usually, the 1050 score should take him 3 missions to get with 109.

Edit: the link is OK now

JtD
01-16-2006, 10:13 AM
I answered your questions in a PM.

VW-IceFire
01-16-2006, 11:39 AM
Bit of misinformation http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We don't have any Mark V Hispano cannons in the game. At all. Not even on the Tempest AI at the moment...something I hope changes when we do get the Tempest as a flyable aircraft.

The following aircraft were fitted with Hispano Mark V cannons.

1) Tempest Mark V Series II
2) Meteor Mark III (possibly Mark I)
3) Spitfire Mark 21
4) Seafire III (on late models)
5) Seafire XV (on some)

Virtually all other types were fitted with the longer barreled Mark II. The differences between the Mark II and the Mark V are somewhat numerous.

The Mark V was lighter, more reliable, had a shorter barrel, sacrificed muzzle velocity for higher refire rate, and fired the same shell.

The reason that the Hispanos fire in a flatter trajectory than the MG151/20 is because the Hispano shell is ALOT heavier and is fired at a more rapid muzzle velocity. Thus the trajectory is flatter before it drops. The MG151/20 to my understanding was meant to have an arching trajectory.

The other benefit of the MG151/20 is that it could store more ammo and thus give most German fighters a longer fire duration. Only the Tempest, Beaufighter, and Mosqutio really had the possibility of sustaining longer periods of fire. Tempests were able of storing upto 200 rounds per gun. The Spitfire Vb by comparison held 60 rounds and the Spitfire IXc could hold 120 rounds. The Typhoon was either 120 or 140 (can't remember).

There are tradeoffs. Compare the fire time between a Bf109F-4 and a Spitfire Vb and you see the 109 has alot of extra time (more than double) on the single easy to aim cannon than the Vb has on two harder to aim cannons.

Kocur_
01-16-2006, 12:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The reason that the Hispanos fire in a flatter trajectory than the MG151/20 is because the Hispano shell is ALOT heavier and is fired at a more rapid muzzle velocity. Thus the trajectory is flatter before it drops. The MG151/20 to my understanding was meant to have an arching trajectory. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, of the two velocity only flattens trajectory http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Projectile weight makes difference in weight of propellant, i.e. if you have X weight projectile and want to achieve Y MV, you need Z weight of propellant.

Hispano was designed to be as perfect as possible in terms of ballistics. And so was British Hispano Mk.II. Mk.V reflects conclusion that its not worth to have gun as perfect ballisticaly, since you dont fire in air at distances greater than, say 300m, if cost is overweight and lower ROF. And you are right, that in Mk.V they traded off ballistics for better mechanics, i.e. ROF, reliability and weight. The more force is transferred from cartridge (it is larger or, as here: barrel is longer, so bolt assmbly had to be heavier in Mk. II), the more difficult to produce automatic weapon for it: greater forces mean greater weights of moving parts for they must be more solid, and that means greater forces in the mechanism with increace of ROF, which is nothing but more speed for moving parts. Mk.V definately was better aerial weapon than Mk.II.

And MG151/20 was created, well accidentalyhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif As soon as they found MG151/15 not being effective enough, they decided to implement more powerful HE projectile, but fired from already existing weapon. So they took 15mm casing, necked it up to fit set of 20mm projectiles from MG FF/(M) and shortened case enough to make entire cartridge fit existing mechanism (15 x 96mm and 20 x 82mm cartridges have the same overall lenght). MG151/20 projectiles MVs are result of that process.

VW-IceFire
01-16-2006, 12:43 PM
And lots of good things were created as stopgap measures or by accident. Rubber, the Spitfire IX, and so on http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HellToupee
01-16-2006, 01:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
can't open your link, please check it out.

100/1 K/D? R u kidding? I'd like to know which server you were playing at and what planes you usually fly. Did you fly alone or in companion? and which 109 you were flying and what are the enemy aircrafts?

You can go and try F4 vs spitfire V and G2 VS spitfire VIII in Chinese server DOF:sky.dof.cn:21000. You'll see how easily the spitfire sweep off those 109s.

Anyhow, 190 and 109 shouldn't be "easy to master" planes. I'm sure you wouldn't say such words if you had read about the 190 and 109 tatics. In my opinion, it's spit that is the AC so easy to master. One of my squad mate has once alone got 11 109s/190s shot down within three flights duing a single mission at WC and turnfighted with 3 109s and 2 190s and finally shot down 3 of them and drove away the other 2. Usually, the 1050 score should take him 3 missions to get with 109.

Edit: the link is OK now </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If your going to sit around turn fighting spitfires well ofcourse your gona die. Ge has a point german planes are not hard to fly, i jump straight from a spitfire into a 190 and do even better. 109s are especially easy to fly probly most forgiving in game, no sudden snap stalls like a spitfire u can be very aggressive onthe stick to no ill effect. The only thing u need to master in the german planes is dont try and outturn spitfires. You should try the US planes if u want to see what hard to master is.

p1ngu666
01-16-2006, 05:42 PM
indeed helltoupee, its beyond me why ppl are cryin about the german planes, (apart from he111 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

109 is tricky with convergance, but 190 is current king

btw, i find the mg151/20 easier with the 190 than hispano on spitfire, probably due to the 190 being far better gunplatform.

but cheer up, the mg151/20, with its worse muzzle volcity, energy retention, and self destructive ammo, outranges the hispano (which didnt have self destructive ammo)

if u would care to answer that one, with some decent reasoning, im all ears http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

109 F's are faster and climb better, and are much less wobbly, and much more forgiving. i havent got a good convergance for 109s currenty, but use 750 for 190

Grey_Mouser67
01-16-2006, 06:01 PM
A good site

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/fgun.html

Lots of info on ROF, Velocity etc...heavy projectiles hold their energy better, but are affected by gravity more...so at the same velocity and the same projectile shape, the heavier one will drop further but have more foot pounds of energy at the other end.

anarchy52
01-16-2006, 06:02 PM
Well let's put aside clowning with 100:1 kill ratios and pingu's pathetic crying. there, there pingu, Tempest is close http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

German planes are easy to fly. All planes are easy to fly in this game. However not all are easy to score online. Here is how I see the most popular planes

Spit
+ unbeliveable manuevers (especially those sharp upward turns), e-retention, killer guns, can take multiple mk108 hits (up to 3!), 20mm hits won't cripple it too much, great low speed steep climb

- dives crappy, due to extreme manuverability gives you too much confidence for lone wolfing and just begs you to turn sharp which leads to loss of speed, alt and eventually hole in the ground, attracts less experienced players, gunnery at short ranges difficult due to widely spaced weapons

FW-190
+ fast, big guns, can't outmanuever anything really, makes you watch your 6 more then your 12 which is a good thing, also you gain an instinct to hang out in packs

- sensitive to wing hits, stalls at extremely low AoA, outtmanuvered by everything, well flown P-47 will run circles around it, terrible acceleration, crappy climb rate (can use shallow climb to escape 1942 and some 1943 planes)

P-51
+ fast, fantastic at high alt, best zoom climb in game, relatively tough (except the engine)
- no cannons, mediocre acceleration, elevators too sensitive at high speed, in low turnfight gets eaten alive by 109

P-47D late
+ fast, very tough, excellent high alt performance, firepower, dive acceleration, e-retention
- low alt performance unimpressive, acceleration, ugly

Ta-152H
+ everything
- uncomfortable throttle lever, tendency to spin, rollrate reduced compared to 190

P-38
+ almost everything
- roll rate at low/medium speed, big target, crappy all round view

Bf-109
+ relativelly fast, relativelly good manuverability at low/med speed, climb, nose mounted gun, acceleration

- high speed manuverability, overheating, terrible high alt performance, extremelly sensitive to damage

<span class="ev_code_RED">In the end it comes down to speed and guns. And focke has both even in 4.02 crippled version.</span>

Brain32
01-16-2006, 06:28 PM
Best description of current in-game situation, I ever saw...

WWMaxGunz
01-16-2006, 07:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The reason that the Hispanos fire in a flatter trajectory than the MG151/20 is because the Hispano shell is ALOT heavier and is fired at a more rapid muzzle velocity. Thus the trajectory is flatter before it drops. The MG151/20 to my understanding was meant to have an arching trajectory. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, of the two velocity only flattens trajectory http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Projectile weight makes difference in weight of propellant, i.e. if you have X weight projectile and want to achieve Y MV, you need Z weight of propellant.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You is wrong, be sure. Heavier shell has more momentum and holds velocity longer. Lighter
shell slows quicker even if it starts faster. Lighter shells are worse for long range.

A shell 10% slower with over half again the weight at 200m will get there quicker.
Flatness of trajectory is only time to range along that trajectory. All fall with the
same rate within close values at 500m or less.

Also some people would do well to look at the table Franky posted as that came from Oleg
and his primary data. Find the whole table, check the variations in muzzle velocity and
shell weights for some of the guns, esp Mk108. There are sweet ranges for those guns
where all shells cross nearly the same distance on the sight line. Otherwise some are
higher than others and that can mess up the deflection. Add a big relative velocity to
your target and that sweet ranges changes as well. So don't say "this gun is this velocity
and that one is that velocity" because the game is far more detailed and of course you just
confuse yourself and anyone who takes your post as true.

jermin122
01-16-2006, 08:29 PM
OK, leave alone the debate who is the plane more easy to fly. Back to the gunnery. Dont you think the lead angle of 151/108 is a bit too big? Like I said, skilled 109 fighters won't pull triggers at out of 300M. In fact, most of them fire at less than 200m. Regardless of long range shooting, I have to say the lead angle is too big, indeed.

VW-IceFire
01-16-2006, 08:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
OK, leave alone the debate who is the plane more easy to fly. Back to the gunnery. Dont you think the lead angle of 151/108 is a bit too big? Like I said, skilled 109 fighters won't pull triggers at out of 300M. In fact, most of them fire at less than 200m. Regardless of long range shooting, I have to say the lead angle is too big, indeed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't think anything is wrong with the MG151/20 anymore. The trajectory the shell takes seems consistent with the analysis that have been posted by WWII gun experts. I haven't measured it but it in relative terms matches up. Furthermore I find the MG151/20 to be an accurate and devastating weapon now that the MG shell has been put on it.

You may want to experiment with your convergence settings to achieve the best results for your flying style. Keep in mind that convergence also affects hub and centerline mounted guns as they will be lobbed to cross the center of the crosshair at the given convergence range (i.e. convergence is both horizontal and vertical).

p1ngu666
01-16-2006, 10:57 PM
if u mess around with convergances, then ull see how a change can throw u off, or, indeed throw u on target

anarchy, your playing a completely different game...

Kocur_
01-16-2006, 11:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:

You is wrong, be sure. Heavier shell has more momentum and holds velocity longer. Lighter
shell slows quicker even if it starts faster. Lighter shells are worse for long range.

A shell 10% slower with over half again the weight at 200m will get there quicker.
Flatness of trajectory is only time to range along that trajectory. All fall with the
same rate within close values at 500m or less.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maximum ordinates for:

.................................................. ...100.....200.......300.....400.....500
5,56 x 45 NATO: 940m/s, 4g..........0,015...0,06.....0,018...0,35.....0,69
7,62 x 39 M43: 715m/sm 7,91g........0,03....0,13.....0,34....0,71.....1,3
7,92 x 57 Mauser: 837m/s, 11,53g....0,02....0,08.....0,22...0,54.....0,74


I dont see light 5,56mm projectile trajectory less flat than 7,92mm one, even though the latter almost triples 5,56 weight and is merely ~100m/s slower, not to mention twice heavier but ~200m/s much slower 7,62mm x 43.

JtD
01-16-2006, 11:50 PM
I think the 5.56 is the sleeker round, isn't it?

I'd also like to say that it is absolutely possible and not even rare to dewing Spitfires with one single MG 151/20 round. They are not tougher than their German counterparts.

Also, while I usually shoot from inside 150 meters I have also managed to kill opponents from more than 500 meters away, with the single MG 151/20 of a 109.

jermin122
01-17-2006, 12:35 AM
Listen, buds, I introduce this topic not because I am suffering from the current gunfire speed. In fact, during about half an hour at Warcloud, I can get 6 bandits shot down and get a 14.22% hit rate with MK 108. There's nothing difficult for me to master this weapon. But I just want this sim to become more realistic and , the more important, fair.

Ratsack
01-17-2006, 12:47 AM
Not broken.

Ratsack

con1_404
01-17-2006, 01:30 AM
Ammo war "again". http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Here is german data:www.Histavia21.net/amaviapag/Lw-Ammos.htm

anarchy52
01-17-2006, 02:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
109 is tricky with convergance, but 190 is current king
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
why would you need to set up convergence on nose mounted guns is beyond me. Just set it up to max max effective range of MGs ~350m, or set it to 1000m...doesn't really matter much

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
btw, i find the mg151/20 easier with the 190 than hispano on spitfire, probably due to the 190 being far better gunplatform.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hispano has lower ROF and less tracer rounds in ammo belt. Balisticaly it's superior both in game and IRL, although IRL both were pretty similar within the effective shooting range (up to 300m). I shoot crappy with it. Usually I lead my target too much as I'm more used to MG151/20. Trick for MG151/20 is to get close.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
but cheer up, the mg151/20, with its worse muzzle volcity, energy retention, and self destructive ammo, outranges the hispano (which didnt have self destructive ammo)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not test the "disappearance" ranges, but anything above 500m is useless (at least with MG151/20) even for bombers. Yes I can score hits from much further away, but target needs to be perfectly steady.
I had hispano rounds flying formation with me, if someone wants to shoot from even further distance, fine by me. Waste of ammo.

WWMaxGunz
01-17-2006, 12:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:

You is wrong, be sure. Heavier shell has more momentum and holds velocity longer. Lighter
shell slows quicker even if it starts faster. Lighter shells are worse for long range.

A shell 10% slower with over half again the weight at 200m will get there quicker.
Flatness of trajectory is only time to range along that trajectory. All fall with the
same rate within close values at 500m or less.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maximum ordinates for:

.................................................. ...100.....200.......300.....400.....500
5,56 x 45 NATO: 940m/s, 4g..........0,015...0,06.....0,018...0,35.....0,69
7,62 x 39 M43: 715m/sm 7,91g........0,03....0,13.....0,34....0,71.....1,3
7,92 x 57 Mauser: 837m/s, 11,53g....0,02....0,08.....0,22...0,54.....0,74


I dont see light 5,56mm projectile trajectory less flat than 7,92mm one, even though the latter almost triples 5,56 weight and is merely ~100m/s slower, not to mention twice heavier but ~200m/s much slower 7,62mm x 43. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's my fault, mass alone is not a blanket rule. There's mass, frontal area, tip and
tail shapes that affect supersonic and subsonic flight.

The 5.56mm rounds are special in that the lengths of the bullets themselves are
exaggerated, therefore a much higher mass per frontal area. The bullets are also very
well shaped for high velocity flight.

See if you can find wind effects for those rounds. There's more reasons for long range
snipers to use the bigger bullets than just long range hitting power. But wth, I've
known former snipers who did use M-16's.

You compare bullets with almost twice the mass but over twice the frontal area and not
as sleek a shape then yes they lose.

I'll state it more clearly now. Same calibre, same muzzle velocity, heavier bullets will
carry farther with flatter trajectory. You trade speed for mass and you will find that
it takes a lot of speed to make up for mass at longer ranges.

Kocur_
01-17-2006, 12:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kocur_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The reason that the Hispanos fire in a flatter trajectory than the MG151/20 is because the Hispano shell is ALOT heavier and is fired at a more rapid muzzle velocity. Thus the trajectory is flatter before it drops. The MG151/20 to my understanding was meant to have an arching trajectory. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, of the two velocity only flattens trajectory http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Projectile weight makes difference in weight of propellant, i.e. if you have X weight projectile and want to achieve Y MV, you need Z weight of propellant.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You is wrong, be sure. Heavier shell has more momentum and holds velocity longer. Lighter
shell slows quicker even if it starts faster. Lighter shells are worse for long range.

A shell 10% slower with over half again the weight at 200m will get there quicker.
Flatness of trajectory is only time to range along that trajectory. All fall with the
same rate within close values at 500m or less.

Also some people would do well to look at the table Franky posted as that came from Oleg
and his primary data. Find the whole table, check the variations in muzzle velocity and
shell weights for some of the guns, esp Mk108. There are sweet ranges for those guns
where all shells cross nearly the same distance on the sight line. Otherwise some are
higher than others and that can mess up the deflection. Add a big relative velocity to
your target and that sweet ranges changes as well. So don't say "this gun is this velocity
and that one is that velocity" because the game is far more detailed and of course you just
confuse yourself and anyone who takes your post as true. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And to add a bit of theory to reality of maximum ordinates I wrote above.

Do not confuse flatness of trajectory with maximum range. Only in case of the latter weight per se matters, i.e. if we had two projectiles of EQUAL momentum and the same shape, than the heavier one, despite its lower MV would fly further, yes, because of more inertia. Still however the lighter one will have its (shorter) trajectory flatter.

Shape of trajectory depends on two factors only: muzzle velocity and ballistic coefficient (C). The latter incorporates weight too, but only to present sectional density or energy loading of crossection - NO weight per se! C is basically w / i x d&lt;2&gt; or: weight / shape factor x squared diameter (not caliber!). To be more specific we should add also to the equation " x weight of 1m&lt;3&gt; of air", but that is usually dropped.
The key factor for flatness is velocity. We can see that in the simpliest method of finding height of trajectory, i.e. Sladen equation: Y = 1,3 t&lt;2&gt;, where t is time of projectile flight. Thus height of trajectory depends on how fast the projectile is - of course t depends of aerodynamical features of projectile, which are presented in C, the most in i - the shape factor. Unfortunately it is very difficult to calculate i, so its value is determined via calaculating back RL shooting results. Standard military rifle projectiles like: .30-06, 7,62 x 51 NATO, 7,92 x 57 Mauser 'Ss' or 8 x 50R Lebel 'D' have i=~0,3.

Fact that weight per se does not affect flatness of trajectory make many confuse internal and external ballistics. If you had one casing + propellant and one barrel, than any change in external ballistics would have be made by changing features of projectile only. If also shape was constant, you would be left with changing projectile's weight only. And that works both ways: it you had one projectile of certain maximum ordinate, and wanted to make another one, heavier, have as flat trajectory (with i const.) - you would have to increace muzzle velocity. The only was to achieve that is giving more propellant (and/or making barrel longer).

OldMan____
01-17-2006, 12:15 PM
heavier would not fly fartehr tue to more inertia. Heavy stuff flies further ecuase it has a Smaller deacceleration from drag (same shape= same drag force, same force bigger weight means smaller deacceleration). 2 bodies with samem momentum of inertai have same inertia...

Kocur_
01-17-2006, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:


It's my fault, mass alone is not a blanket rule. There's mass, frontal area, tip and
tail shapes that affect supersonic and subsonic flight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You compare bullets with almost twice the mass but over twice the frontal area and not
as sleek a shape then yes they lose. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have two words: ballistic coefficient http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">See if you can find wind effects for those rounds. There's more reasons for long range
snipers to use the bigger bullets than just long range hitting power. But wth, I've
known former snipers who did use M-16's. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maximum ordinates are one thing, and muzzle energy is another. It is obvious that projectile of MV ~3500J (~8mm rifle) will have more energy to trasfer to the target, than intermidiate one of 1800J - at any distance. 5,56 x 45 NATO sniper weapons are useful in police, i.e. urban conditions, where distances to target rarely exceed 100m. Lets not confuse military "full snipers" with 7,62 x 51 NATO, .338 Lapua Magnum etc. rifles and "para snipers" with standard 5,56mm weapons with scopes.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'll state it more clearly now. Same calibre, same muzzle velocity, heavier bullets will
carry farther with flatter trajectory. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same dimentions too? If so - agreed, such a projectile will have better C.

Kuna15
01-17-2006, 03:05 PM
I personally find MG151 as one of the easiest to use cannons in game. Hispano is not on that list for me.

Few are reasons for that, some of them are related to other things than weapon itself, but nonetheless I find 'field' use of MG151 easier than Hispano.

p1ngu666
01-17-2006, 03:32 PM
indeed kuna

anarchy, the convergance ingame effects vertical, not just horizontal, thats why its important for "feel"

mg151/20 has a higher rof, its on better gun platforms, and oleg put in 3 mine shells (which was the highest in the belting)

Kocur_
01-17-2006, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
indeed kuna

anarchy, the convergance ingame effects vertical, not just horizontal, thats why its important for "feel"

mg151/20 has a higher rof, its on better gun platforms, and oleg put in 3 mine shells (which was the highest in the belting) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

MG 151/20
// APIT - HE - HE - MG - MG
APIT
mass = 0.115
speed = 710.0
power = 0.0036

HE
mass = 0.115
speed = 705.0
power = 0.0044

MG
mass = 0.092
speed = 775.0
power = 0.0186

anarchy52
01-17-2006, 04:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
indeed kuna

anarchy, the convergance ingame effects vertical, not just horizontal, thats why its important for "feel"

mg151/20 has a higher rof, its on better gun platforms, and oleg put in 3 mine shells (which was the highest in the belting) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you ever know what you're talking about or check the facts? Wanna bet?

p1ngu666
01-17-2006, 05:40 PM
last i heard, it probably had 3, but maybe 2. ppl wherent sure, probably cos it blows stuff up quickly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

if u dont belive me about convergance, then take out a p39, or a yak9t or k. set the convergance for the cannon too 1000, or 250

go shoot at things

now try 125 to 100, ull probably hit more.

try out b25, its hard to hit fighters with its machine guns, cos they are a fair bit below you

190 should and is a better gunplatform than a spit which are the 2 ur most likely to come across.
for me, 190 is just point and shoot, spitfire its more like surgery, haveto aim very carefully (which is difficult)

mg151/20 spits out about 13 rounds per second, hispano mk2, about 10.

faustnik
01-17-2006, 06:05 PM
Hispanos fire slower but, hit hard even at long range. Some of my most memorable shots were long range Hispano hits. Give the French credit for designing an excellent weapon.

WWMaxGunz
01-17-2006, 06:08 PM
Kocur, the chart from Oleg comes from back in the IL2 days.
151/20's have changed since as we have the gunpod and non-gunpod varieties.

It shouldn't be hard to find out how many MG shells using the same techniques that
Tiger Talon did to make the screenies showing the ammo mixup finally fixed this year.

Why do we get people who want to compare 151/20 MG shell to Hisso AP or HE and come
up with 151/20 as equivalent, even expecting the same ballistics? Must be blurbs
from websites being taken as knowledge.

jermin122
01-17-2006, 08:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
last i heard, it probably had 3, but maybe 2. ppl wherent sure, probably cos it blows stuff up quickly http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

if u dont belive me about convergance, then take out a p39, or a yak9t or k. set the convergance for the cannon too 1000, or 250

go shoot at things

now try 125 to 100, ull probably hit more.

try out b25, its hard to hit fighters with its machine guns, cos they are a fair bit below you

190 should and is a better gunplatform than a spit which are the 2 ur most likely to come across.
for me, 190 is just point and shoot, spitfire its more like surgery, haveto aim very carefully (which is difficult)

mg151/20 spits out about 13 rounds per second, hispano mk2, about 10. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Setting the convergance to 1000 will make the cannon point a bit upward to let the procjetiles hit the LOS in 1000m ahead when you fly level. but this will make &gt;90 degree deflection shooting very difficult though you will find 6 o'clock shooting much easier( cause the lead angle becomes smaller ). But it is NOT the solution for the unfair gunfire speed.

"190 is just point and shoot"-----You really think so? You must be shooting at a steady target, otherwise, you must be daydreaming, bud. That you can perform a hit more easily with 190 is because it has 4 151/20 cannons, but it demands very good caculation (190 is not a turn fighter and his speed is usually very high when shooting). But anyway, I'd like to see you how to make it. You can try BnZ 4 ACE AI LA7 with 25% fuel in 109 AS or G10 with 100 fuel in QMB. I'm looking forward to see your track. BTW, its one of the basic trainings of our squad.

Finally, I dont see any difficulty in aiming with spit. Contrarily, it is very easy.

I/JG53_jermin

p1ngu666
01-17-2006, 11:44 PM
ill get onto that tomoz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

spitfire is a horrible gunplatform, 190 is smooth, much easier to aim..

anarchy52
01-18-2006, 01:33 AM
I checked the convergence, took I-16 with machineguns only set convergence to 1000m and went on to shoot bombers at 250-300m distance.

If you were correct (which you are not) rifle caliber would have to arc a lot to hit the sight line at 1000m therefore if I line up my sight on target at 250m with convergence set to 1000, my shots should all go over the target.

They don't. Setting convergence does exactly that - sets the convergence and nothing more.

Abbuzze
01-18-2006, 02:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:

mg151/20 has a higher rof, its on better gun platforms, and oleg put in 3 mine shells (which was the highest in the belting) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Three mine shells were the official recommendation of the High Command of the Luftwaffe against all planes, except 4-engined bombers.

http://www.sturmovik.de/wiki/index.php?title=Schiessfibel

jermin122
01-18-2006, 03:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
I checked the convergence, took I-16 with machineguns only set convergence to 1000m and went on to shoot bombers at 250-300m distance.

If you were correct (which you are not) rifle caliber would have to arc a lot to hit the sight line at 1000m therefore if I line up my sight on target at 250m with convergence set to 1000, my shots should all go over the target.

They don't. Setting convergence does exactly that - sets the convergence and nothing more. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To shoot at a target at 250m With 1000m convergence, you should aim a little lower to the target in order to perform a hit because the cannon is pointing a little upward.

stathem
01-18-2006, 03:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
ill get onto that tomoz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

spitfire is a horrible gunplatform, 190 is smooth, much easier to aim.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just wanted to back P1ngu up on that, those are my sentiments also.

Just so you don't think he's the only one.

jermin122
01-18-2006, 04:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
ill get onto that tomoz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

spitfire is a horrible gunplatform, 190 is smooth, much easier to aim.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just wanted to back P1ngu up on that, those are my sentiments also.

Just so you don't think he's the only one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Easy to aim doesn't mean esay to master. Of course 190 is easy to aim, its due to its good instantaneous turn.

carguy_
01-18-2006, 05:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
ill get onto that tomoz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

spitfire is a horrible gunplatform, 190 is smooth, much easier to aim.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Spitfire has one of the best elevator authrities based on best balance of elevator authority:smoothness.

Especially visible in small inputs where FW190 jumps around whereas Spitfire denies to make smaller inputs until more strenght is given on the stick,then it goes smoothly.

Spitfire is worse gun platform when firing straight because two cannons never give the same spread compared to four cannons.Straight shooting almost never happens though.

The Spitfire is one of the best planes ingame to make deflection shots because of elevator smoothness nad last but least a clear gunsight without no bar blocking it.


Elevator characteristics of FW190 are close to P51 though FW190 feels a lot heavier.

AustinPowers_
01-18-2006, 05:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:


spitfire is a horrible gunplatform, 190 is smooth, much easier to aim.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just wanted to back P1ngu up on that, those are my sentiments also.

Just so you don't think he's the only one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed.

FW is a great firing platform. Deflection is a tad tuffer, but you got 6 guns and that's alot of ammunition in the air.

p1ngu, czech your PT's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Brain32
01-18-2006, 05:50 AM
Due to wobbles and general instability some people are expiriencing, we don't play the same game, for me Spitfire is completely stable through all manouvers and at shooting, I usually don't need more than 2 hits at any plane to blast it to pieces or atleast mess it up that the pilot doesen't have any other option than to bail. My only problem in a Spit is that I get too cocky flying it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

carguy_
01-18-2006, 05:58 AM
Yup,too cocky.One could do wonders with Spitfire/La5 in B&Z but noooo they T&B and get killed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

IIJG69_Kartofe
01-18-2006, 07:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
ill get onto that tomoz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

spitfire is a horrible gunplatform, 190 is smooth, much easier to aim.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As already said in another threads regarding the wobblings, do a clean install of FB+aep+pf, do some tunigs on your joystick settings and you must forget the wobblings forever!

Personally i swap my 4.02 conf ini with an old one from the V 3.0 and ... No more wobblings! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Ratsack
01-18-2006, 07:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
Yup,too cocky.One could do wonders with Spitfire/La5 in B&Z but noooo they T&B and get killed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You should see the No76 squadron guys do it, then. They keep their height, they keep their speed, and the b@stards fight in pairs...

...it's almost Germanic. In Spitfire IXs they are evil.

Ratsack

WWMaxGunz
01-18-2006, 07:34 AM
Setting convergence to 1000 and firing at 250 probably provides a bit of lead itself.
Not a huge amount, but something effective.

jermin122
01-18-2006, 08:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ratsack:

You should see the No76 squadron guys do it, then. They keep their height, they keep their speed, and the b@stards fight in pairs...

...it's almost Germanic. In Spitfire IXs they are evil.

Ratsack </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Totally agreed!

Maggi_4
01-18-2006, 08:11 AM
Im just wondering will we ever have back those 4.01 Mg151s?http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Or maybe allied planes's textures got stronger?http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jermin122
01-18-2006, 09:10 AM
Actually, 4.01 MG 151 is stronger.

berg417448
01-18-2006, 10:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
I checked the convergence, took I-16 with machineguns only set convergence to 1000m and went on to shoot bombers at 250-300m distance.

If you were correct (which you are not) rifle caliber would have to arc a lot to hit the sight line at 1000m therefore if I line up my sight on target at 250m with convergence set to 1000, my shots should all go over the target.

They don't. Setting convergence does exactly that - sets the convergence and nothing more. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try it with Mk 108 set at 1000 and then set it at 100. There is a very visible difference in the arc of the round.

crazyivan1970
01-18-2006, 10:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
Actually, 4.01 MG 151 is stronger. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You guys are really good at making stuff up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Aaron_GT
01-18-2006, 01:37 PM
I find the 190D is a good gunplatform but the 190A seems more wobbly to me, and I'd prefer the Spit IX over the 190A any day. It's a shame there is no 4 cannon IX, and no Tempest or Typhoon. I'm sure a lot of it comes down to personal preference and control set up. I can see that if you turned the roll axis down a bit the 190A could be a good, stable gun platform too. I just don't like the way it flies in IL2 - for some reason it doesn't suit me for A2A. Great ground pounder, though.

Kocur_
01-18-2006, 02:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:

mg151/20 has a higher rof, its on better gun platforms, and oleg put in 3 mine shells (which was the highest in the belting) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">WWMaxGunz:
Kocur, the chart from Oleg comes from back in the IL2 days.
151/20's have changed since as we have the gunpod and non-gunpod varieties.

It shouldn't be hard to find out how many MG shells using the same techniques that
Tiger Talon did to make the screenies showing the ammo mixup finally fixed this year.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


So I checked and Pingu is right: all MG151/20 mounted internally have APIT-HE-MG-MG-MG.

Btw:
Hispano
HE-AP

ShVAK
AP-HE-HE-HE

Type 99 looks funny, like
HE-HE-MG

I tested also if elevation changes with convergence - I put Bf-109K4 and fired at statue put on strip in front the plane. At both 100m and 1000m shells were hitting the top of statue, I didnt notice changes exceeding dispersion.

Kocur_
01-18-2006, 02:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Abbuzze:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:

mg151/20 has a higher rof, its on better gun platforms, and oleg put in 3 mine shells (which was the highest in the belting) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Three mine shells were the official recommendation of the High Command of the Luftwaffe against all planes, except 4-engined bombers.

http://www.sturmovik.de/wiki/index.php?title=Schiessfibel </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And taken from that document:
http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/6381/ammocounter6dh.png (http://imageshack.us)

See? Fw-190 A6 and obviously further versions, have ammo counter modelled wrong! All four counters were showing MG151/20 ammo, no counter for mgs!

p1ngu666
01-18-2006, 05:15 PM
yeah http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

btw kocur, thanks for the czechup on the belting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

and, if u have wobbles, then spit is horrid, without wobbles its wubbly..

think one of the 109's has both mg guns on the counters, but not the mk108 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Maggi_4
01-19-2006, 07:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
Actually, 4.01 MG 151 is stronger. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You guys are really good at making stuff up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, something has been changed really in Mg151 since 4.01. It wasn't a big deal to clip a LaGG-3s wing with a short burst in a 109. Now Mg151 is only effective against 109, and 190 (I haven' tried out Heinkel). That's why Im guessing something happened with the textures. Of course you can shot down a Spit too, but it takes much more bullets now.

carguy_
01-19-2006, 08:11 AM
One thing is for sure,we didn`t have so many DM "blanks" in 4.01 with MG151/20.If you hit a La5 in the angine it went down,if you struck the cockpit with a 70deg deflection shot the plane was destroyed.

4.02 MG151/20 came back to normal 3.04 destructiveness with added two MG shells in belt which were fiddled with.This will tell anyone who got beta 4.01.In first beta patch the MG shell was a feckin bazooka.The 2nd beta version of the patch has clearly a more powerful MG shell then the final beta patch candidate.

Online players and wars adapted this 2nd beta for like 3 days.Everyone thought it`s gonna be alright from then.The LW community got cheated again because beta testers who I know really were screaming these days and put pressure to change MG151/20 MG shell.

As a result we now have a MG shell with power taken from a normal HE shel whereas HE shell can be easily mistaken for a tracer round in destructive power.

Xiolablu3
01-19-2006, 10:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Luftnards were getting shot down too much </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that true? One spit now can T&B 5 German fighters without any problem. Everytime I encounter a spit at the same altitude my first manuever is bound to be split-s, then dive and escape. Flying spit requies only 1/10 skills than that of German fighters. That is why so many people prefer German fighters. Balance the game like this will only make spitfire a beginner's plane.

If Marseille flew the 109 F4 in the game to fight spitfire V, He would had been dead for millions of times. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cant believe it when I read things like this... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Just how long have you been playing the game for? 2 weeks??

The 109F4 is a slightly better fighter than the Spitfire Vb in the game, if you cannot beat a SPitfire Vb then you need to learn more about flying, not just turning, if you are just turning then the SPitfire will beat you 90% of the time.

Ukded1 Server Stats 109F4 beats Spit Vb 1.1:0.9 KD. (and thats over 10's of thousands of kills) Interestingly this stat has stayed constant over the 5 or 6 months I have been flying on the server.

ImpStarDuece
01-20-2006, 01:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
One thing is for sure,we didn`t have so many DM "blanks" in 4.01 with MG151/20.If you hit a La5 in the angine it went down,if you struck the cockpit with a 70deg deflection shot the plane was destroyed.

4.02 MG151/20 came back to normal 3.04 destructiveness with added two MG shells in belt which were fiddled with.This will tell anyone who got beta 4.01.In first beta patch the MG shell was a feckin bazooka.The 2nd beta version of the patch has clearly a more powerful MG shell then the final beta patch candidate.

Online players and wars adapted this 2nd beta for like 3 days.Everyone thought it`s gonna be alright from then.The LW community got cheated again because beta testers who I know really were screaming these days and put pressure to change MG151/20 MG shell.

As a result we now have a MG shell with power taken from a normal HE shel whereas HE shell can be easily mistaken for a tracer round in destructive power. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I have both 4.01 and 4.02 loaded on my system, mostly because I have been tuning my controls and working out the differences, but also because I tend to enjoy 4.01 a little more (again controller issues http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif ).

As far as I can tell, there is [ <span class="ev_code_RED">0</span> difference between the belting or firepower of the MG 151/20 in the two versions. This is offline only, as I don't fly online very much. I'm currently flying a Bf 109F4 4.02 camapign and a Bf 110G2 4.01 campaign, and there is no discernable difference, for me, between the cannon effectiveness in the game.

Using arcade mode = 1 you can plainly see that the MG round is FAR more powerful than a regular HE round. I consider the MG 151/20 to be a slightly better gun than the Hispano, mostly because of its higher RoF.

jermin122
01-20-2006, 04:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

I cant believe it when I read things like this... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Just how long have you been playing the game for? 2 weeks??

The 109F4 is a slightly better fighter than the Spitfire Vb in the game, if you cannot beat a SPitfire Vb then you need to learn more about flying, not just turning, if you are just turning then the SPitfire will beat you 90% of the time.

Ukded1 Server Stats 109F4 beats Spit Vb 1.1:0.9 KD. (and thats over 10's of thousands of kills) Interestingly this stat has stayed constant over the 5 or 6 months I have been flying on the server. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I recommend you go to sky.dof.cn:21000 for a try. One thing you should note that that's not only my opinion. Don't just look at the KD rate, the spits might be just T&B on the deck. Go and find it by yourself.

p1ngu666
01-20-2006, 04:14 AM
id disagree slight imp, mg151/20 may have been a hair better in 4.01, or they could land hits better in that patch..

but if i hit stuff with mg151/20, said stuff has a strong tendancy to die, in the face often.

jermin, if 109 fliers cant use better speed and climb, more stability and fire time (and roll rate) then dont blame us http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

carguy_
01-20-2006, 04:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImpStarDuece:
I have both 4.01 and 4.02 loaded on my system, mostly because I have been tuning my controls and working out the differences, but also because I tend to enjoy 4.01 a little more (again controller issues http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif ).

As far as I can tell, there is [ <span class="ev_code_RED">0</span> difference between the belting or firepower of the MG 151/20 in the two versions. This is offline only, as I don't fly online very much. I'm currently flying a Bf 109F4 4.02 camapign and a Bf 110G2 4.01 campaign, and there is no discernable difference, for me, between the cannon effectiveness in the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

I`m talking about 4.01 beta 2,4 and 5 IIRC.Beta 4 presented best MG151/20.Not too strong or weak,just optimal.Beta 5 was a 3.04 MG151/20.The difference between HE and MG is marginal now.

The only reason Oleg withdrew 4.01 beta 4 are beta testers rants.I don`t have any info on exact squad of beta testers and how allied/LW proportions go but I know of two beta testers who ALWAYS say the LW got it`s Wunderwaffe "this time".

That resulting in a "compromise" final patch denying the realism.


You guys should view Russian forums some time.You`d know what impact they have on the game.

p1ngu666
01-20-2006, 04:42 AM
its probably slightly better than the hispano, while most stuff would put it being slightly worse. like that famous gun website with all the stats..

OldMan____
01-20-2006, 05:20 AM
I just don't agree with the statements that current 151/20 has its MG ONLY SLIGHTY stronger than HE. It is MUCH MUCH stronger.

I would find hard to beleive in a cannon any dtronger than what we have now. In fact I really think it is now stronger than Hispno ans Shvak, QUITE stronger.

OldMan____
01-20-2006, 05:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Maggi_4:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
Actually, 4.01 MG 151 is stronger. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You guys are really good at making stuff up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, something has been changed really in Mg151 since 4.01. It wasn't a big deal to clip a LaGG-3s wing with a short burst in a 109. Now Mg151 is only effective against 109, and 190 (I haven' tried out Heinkel). That's why Im guessing something happened with the textures. Of course you can shot down a Spit too, but it takes much more bullets now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No it didn't changed. I re-made all the test I made at 4.01 release , sooting down more than 120 planes and result was the same. Unfortunatelly I don think I stil have them since I erased my Il2 folder several tumes to reinstalll trying to get rid of woobles.

MG 151/20 is still the stronger 20 mm in game.

p1ngu666
01-20-2006, 06:17 AM
oldman, any luck getting rid of the wobbles?

OldMan____
01-20-2006, 07:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
oldman, any luck getting rid of the wobbles? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In fact I was not talking about " THE wobbles" that all talk about. I had a very different issue, related to strange invalid input on roll and yaw axis even without even touching controls.


I recently discovered that although in 4.01 all were OK, in 4.02 whenever I add my rudder set into the computer, I have this problem (weird inputs even in axis that are not controlled by the rudder). Now I dropped the rudder usage and am back to X45 rocker swithc, with no problems.

Other controls problems I had (more weord physics) were related to when using the improved Dll to NV cards I think I renamed the P4 ones to the usage name (So i was using wrong dll).

p1ngu666
01-20-2006, 11:32 AM
ah right http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

crazyivan1970
01-20-2006, 11:49 AM
@Carguy:

Sure, when Mg was every second round, which is incorrect, hitting power of MG151 is by far greater. In that regard, yes MG151 was changed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif In other words corrected http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif to approapriate ammo belt loadout

p1ngu666
01-20-2006, 12:07 PM
oh it was api Mine he mine in 4.01?

crazyivan1970
01-20-2006, 02:55 PM
In one of the beta`s it was... forget which version.

VW-IceFire
01-20-2006, 02:59 PM
So are we still saying that the MG151/20 is harder to hit with than the Hispano? Because that is true and that also has been said historically...so is there a debate going on anymore?

Or are we just talking shop? Because I'm good with that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

carguy_
01-20-2006, 03:24 PM
Yes,Ivan it could be so but how do you explain armored surfaces being totally blown away by MG shell???

Beta 2 blew planes apart,wherever it hit.

Come to think of ammobelts I think that anything can be excused with ammobelting.So when I hit a VVS plane in the cockpit and the pilot still lives it MUST have been a MG shell and when I hit the wing yet it stayes intact it MUST have been the AP shell http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

p1ngu666
01-20-2006, 08:57 PM
its a 20mm, u often need more than 1 hit u know...

faustnik
01-20-2006, 10:13 PM
4.02 Mg151 & Hispano are both great. Really no reason for complaining about either.

Carguy, our current Mg151 loadout is historic and very effective.

jermin122
01-20-2006, 11:44 PM
Have you completed that track I ask you to, Pingu?

carguy_
01-21-2006, 03:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
4.02 Mg151 & Hispano are both great. Really no reason for complaining about either.

Carguy, our current Mg151 loadout is historic and very effective. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You aint flying eastern front obviously http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Due to red complaints MG has been toned down.Before patch there was AP round instead of MG round.The AP round got substituted and SUDDENLY the MG151/20 seemed too powerful for some.

The fact stays - they swapped AP with MG but they didn`t like the power new ammobelt had after the change.So previosly powerful MG shell got toned down. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Test ammobelts

Try 3.04 and see what damage a single MG round causes

then

try 4.02 and see what damage a single MG round causes.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
ts a 20mm, u often need more than 1 hit u know... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I SEROUSLY doubt that more than one MG151/20 round was needed to disable the pilot/plane if hitting the cockpit(from above).I`m talkin bout obvous cases where the pilot should be a bloody mess.Or when a wing got hit in a L andle realatively to the wing.


Yah,I got many tacks,but they durate through 20minutes.

p1ngu666
01-21-2006, 07:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
Have you completed that track I ask you to, Pingu? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i havent yet, sorry http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

been busy, and my pf time was spent fiddling with the german rockets, which seem mostly useless http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif, compaired to guns.

mind they sound cool when they wizz past the camera http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

p1ngu666
01-21-2006, 09:06 AM
http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//pingbeatsla7s.TRK

there u go http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

while 2 of them collide, i carried on, also i flew full real untill the end, then u see me dance around the sky and crash http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

last one ran out of fuel, that was actully my orginal plan, circle climb till they ran out of fuel, but given the roc advantage i was able to df abit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

my wobbles have recently gotten worse, spit is still worse than that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Maggi_4
01-21-2006, 09:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
4.02 Mg151 & Hispano are both great. Really no reason for complaining about either.

Carguy, our current Mg151 loadout is historic and very effective. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes, very effective on Uk dedicated http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

So, it has been changed than?http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p1ngu666
01-21-2006, 10:35 AM
oh, just realised, ive made americans AND kurfy happy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

range, i actully used my longer range/endurance of my 109 to win http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

faustnik
01-21-2006, 10:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
4.02 Mg151 & Hispano are both great. Really no reason for complaining about either.

Carguy, our current Mg151 loadout is historic and very effective. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You aint flying eastern front obviously http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do fly Ostfront in the online wars. Most of the time I'm stuck in a Bf109 with a single Mg151. It's been plenty to get the job done against Yaks, Sturmos, whatever.

carguy_
01-21-2006, 10:53 AM
That`s wheere you and most of naysayers make a mistake.You don`t care if it was a compromise.And the fact is that reducing MG shell power was a compromise made against historical accuracy.

We have aces with 39 missions/47 kills saying that MG151/20 is a joke.Nobody has trouble shooting stuff down.

It`s not the point!

The MG shell was there and its power was not changed through entire series until the ammobelt got two MG shells.So why did someone decide that destructiveness of a single MG shell should be reduced?

Ok so maybe if 50cal gets unsynched we should reduce power per round because unsynched 50cal is ultimate ace maker then.

VW-IceFire
01-21-2006, 11:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
That`s wheere you and most of naysayers make a mistake.You don`t care if it was a compromise.And the fact is that reducing MG shell power was a compromise made against historical accuracy.

We have aces with 39 missions/47 kills saying that MG151/20 is a joke.Nobody has trouble shooting stuff down.

It`s not the point!

The MG shell was there and its power was not changed through entire series until the ammobelt got two MG shells.So why did someone decide that destructiveness of a single MG shell should be reduced?

Ok so maybe if 50cal gets unsynched we should reduce power per round because unsynched 50cal is ultimate ace maker then. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm still not convinced that it was a compromise at all. So far nothing indicates that it was. Just one persons word against another.

This whole thread is completely silly...I'm very sorry to say.

carguy_
01-21-2006, 11:59 AM
I know *there was no such thing as leaked beta patches* there was no such thing as leaked beta patches*

I see many ppl let their mantra get to them.


Beta leaked patches are proof that this sim could have been better in many ways.

WWMaxGunz
01-21-2006, 03:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
Yes,Ivan it could be so but how do you explain armored surfaces being totally blown away by MG shell???

Beta 2 blew planes apart,wherever it hit.

Come to think of ammobelts I think that anything can be excused with ammobelting.So when I hit a VVS plane in the cockpit and the pilot still lives it MUST have been a MG shell and when I hit the wing yet it stayes intact it MUST have been the AP shell http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can find out by doing the same and making a track at the end of the mission. You can
play full tracks back with arcade set on and see what hits made shrapnel. And you have
your evidence to send to Maddox Games.

Kocur_
01-21-2006, 04:19 PM
I tried MGs shooting from front station of He111H6, i.e. with MG FFM at another He111H6. I was aiming at wing tip and both in 3.04 and 4.02 it took the same amount of MG hits to cut the wing off (beltings are different - in both cases I fired API and HE in the air).
Now, could someone please post those pictures of He111 on which they tested MGs? For: guess how many MG hits it takes to dewing He111! No less than 8 (eight)!

jermin122
01-21-2006, 08:26 PM
Clearly you don't know how to fly 109 properly, ping. You were doing too many level turns, just turn to death. Perheps you should learn about Enegy Air Combat. You just flew 109 like a spit. I dont see any advantages between you and those 2 la7. All your maneuvers were just energy-bleeding. You should know how to keep your enegy and convert your energy among altitude, speed, and angles, not just waste. You even dont know how to perform a B&Z, maybe you just fly spit by turning and turning, and yes, turning is totally enough for spit to kill 109. To perform a onn-pass-kill during B&Z, you should use more powerful 108 cannon, not 151, and you should be skilled at deflection shooting. Dont you know how to get out of stalling. BTW, you shold use smolensk, not okinawa, cause the initial range between you and the enemies in okinawa is longer, you have more time to climb before encoutering enemies. Dont you know the bug in TRK file? After your first shot, I just saw you were shooting at the air. Convert it to ntrk before post next time.

Here is one of my tracks: 109G10_full_B&Z_4LA7_ACE_25.ntrk (ftp://ijg53:cnsamren@61.142.209.250/109G10_full_B&Z_4LA7_ACE_25.ntrk)

109 is not like you said that easy. It took me one and a half year to reach this level.

p1ngu666
01-21-2006, 09:04 PM
*shrug*
so, i aprently turned and burned against la7's, and won. ****.

and ****, i didnt take the n00b cannon.

i was circle climbin, a standard 109 tatic

i bnz in most planes, heck ive bnz'ed in bombers.

and yes i know howto get out of stalls.

i hardly ever fly the 109 either

perhaps we should whine at oleg, because a la7 should be leagues ahead of 109 in turn and burn, and with 4 ace i should be dead

and no, i cant be bothered to redo the track or redo it all again

jermin122
01-21-2006, 10:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:


i hardly ever fly the 109 either


</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then never say 109 is an easy A/C. Zedong Mao has once said that what determins the result of a war is not the weapon, but the men who use it. So however 109 is balanced, I wont switch to any other plane else.

The quantity of posts wont make you an Ace pilot. Go and learn something useful.

p1ngu666
01-21-2006, 11:22 PM
quite, i dont proclaim tobe a ace pilot, am indeed pretty useless, but i do know the strengths and weaknesses of aircraft. yes your a better 109 pilot, but uve spent 1.5 years learnin that, ive spent, perhaps 1.5 weeks.

oh, and that track was my 2nd attempt, i aborted the first when i realised i had unlimited ammo and invunrability on, from when id been playing about with the rockets, so i didnt spend forever respawning http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

109 IS easy too, i mean the lack of torque makes takeoff and landing a simple affair, the performance is good too, the stalls are very easy, and its a stable gun platform relativly, especialy if u have wobbles.

you just need to point out a few things to new pilots and they can do well.

it takes more time, effort and skill to fly a bomber, i fly bombers alot, and your crying over nothing.

many months ago, slickstick i think raised a topic here, pointing out the guns on the b25, the bullets go somewhere else to where they should, u cant really use the gunsights. its actully true, and it got moved to general discussion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
thats on the waist guns btw.

the he111 is waaay too slow but u hardly ever hear about it.

sorry, just fed up of wannabe heros of the luftwaffe crying over absolutely nothing.

oh i found it rather amusing that while u didnt use icons, u have the la7's using the void skin so they stick out http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

jermin122
01-21-2006, 11:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:

oh i found it rather amusing that while u didnt use icons, u have the la7's using the void skin so they stick out http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif Yes, at that time I was using a 17' CRT and hadn't tested the video settings on dot vision. Now I switch to a 19' LCD and work out how to make dots biger by adjusting video settings.

carguy_
01-22-2006, 06:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
quite, i dont proclaim tobe a ace pilot, am indeed pretty useless, but i do know the strengths and weaknesses of aircraft. yes your a better 109 pilot, but uve spent 1.5 years learnin that, ive spent, perhaps 1.5 weeks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cool,go back to flying the Spitfire then.It takes one week to be ace in this plane.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
109 IS easy too, i mean the lack of torque makes takeoff and landing a simple affair, the performance is good too, the stalls are very easy, and its a stable gun platform relativly, especialy if u have wobbles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is you who has wobbles flyin the Spit.I have none.Yes,the 109 is easy.Compared to th Spitfire,it is a veteran`s plane though.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">you just need to point out a few things to new pilots and they can do well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They do well for two missions then they get killed.Congrats if by your definition that is what you name doing well.

Spitfire pilots have shocking K/D,M/D ratios for a plane that outclasses most of his equal year enemies.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">it takes more time, effort and skill to fly a bomber, i fly bombers alot, and your crying over nothing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup,if there`s anyone I admire it`s the bomber pilots.

Oh and wobble in the Spit is what you`re crying about = nothing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">sorry, just fed up of wannabe heros of the luftwaffe crying over absolutely nothing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LW players are crying about, one of whole two fighters they got,being severly hurt by the game code(FW190 - wing loading,diving,energy) and visibility issues(inability to perform classic B&Z).You have proven to be nothing more than a guy who seeks glory online.You don`t care if actually your advantages are historical or not.You care about having those advantages,regardless if they were therer in the real WWII.


If you call LW fighters being unable to protect their bomber formations(based on B&Z tactic) nothing then I rest my case.

From my perspective it`s the RAF guys who want to be "heroes".RAF saved UK,the Lufwaffe had their share in losing the war.A Luftwaffe pilot is not a hero by definition.
I dunno bout anyone lse flying LW,I`m one of the bad guys.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">oh i found it rather amusing that while u didnt use icons, u have the la7's using the void skin so they stick out http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tastes.I use void skins in QMB too,because I don`t like my canopy looking like a fecking HUD(numbers on planes).You seem to accept the LOD/dot problem which is because your natural advantage is not altitude.

anarchy52
01-22-2006, 06:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
*shrug*
so, i aprently turned and burned against la7's, and won. ****.

and ****, i didnt take the n00b cannon.

i was circle climbin, a standard 109 tatic

i bnz in most planes, heck ive bnz'ed in bombers.

and yes i know howto get out of stalls.

i hardly ever fly the 109 either

perhaps we should whine at oleg, because a la7 should be leagues ahead of 109 in turn and burn, and with 4 ace i should be dead

and no, i cant be bothered to redo the track or redo it all again </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Give ME an La-7 vs you and a couple of your friends on G10 and I'll let you choose which wing you want to lose.

Anyone can win a turnfight against AI anytime. Just don't ease up on the turn and don't get bounced.
Ocassionaly Spitwhiner takes the challenge and goes against 109 driver in Spitfire. Needless to say result is always the same.

Situation is like this:
We have the arcade planes: most russian + Spit ( depending on how much the opposition is porked in the actual patch)
We have so-so planes (USAF, German, some russian)
We have **** planes (Cr42, Japanese, Fiat G50)

But there is nothing funnier watching russians trying to fly P-51s http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG53_Blwidow
01-22-2006, 06:25 AM
If anyone regard the bf109 is easy than the spitfire.

Come to I/JG54 ts:xgjx.3322.org pass: jackgh

we can test 1 vs 1 or n vs n with teamwork.

jermin122
01-22-2006, 06:28 AM
If you guys who still think F4 is superior to Spit V, go and try F4 75% fuel vs 4 ace spits v 50% fuel (this time 50% is enough) smolensk map and then post your ntrk here.

carguy_
01-22-2006, 06:33 AM
Fighting enemies with 75% fuel is a mistake.You should have 22-20% when you encounter enemies.

WWMaxGunz
01-22-2006, 06:49 AM
Discussion of cannon is over. Crying babies need fed and put to sleep again.
Then please be quiet so they can stay asleep.

jermin122
01-22-2006, 07:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
Fighting enemies with 75% fuel is a mistake.You should have 22-20% when you encounter enemies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then I should use what to land? And I ofen encouter enemies with 75% fuel in WC.

carguy_
01-22-2006, 07:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Discussion of cannon is over. Crying babies need fed and put to sleep again.
Then please be quiet so they can stay asleep. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Everytime someone whines bout allied cannons,the demons of compromise are awaken http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

p1ngu666
01-22-2006, 07:52 AM
heh, no ones whined about the effectiveness of the hispano, or shvak for ages.

last was range, but ofcourse the mg151/20 with its less muzzle vocity, and self destructing rounds should have a longer range http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

jermin, against better judgement i tried out your suggestion.

the 109F4 has the advantage in climb, speed, and dive. not a huge advantage, but its pretty handy.

if i remmber correctly, 109F drivers would try to get the height advantage (helped by radar) then would bnz, but wouldnt hang about. makes sense to me, due to the small advantage.

i did record a track but only shot down 1, then crashed into another. AWFUL AWFUL pingu pilot skills strike again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

anarchy, yes a human la7 is rather more scary, but a alcholic 109 can outclimb it, drag it high and then the odds are better.

carguy, yep ive done well in a spit, with wobble it makes gunnery, well rather hard.

its *not* just me who has wobbles flying the spit, plenty do.

109 is abit harder cos u cant just tnb, as other planes turn better..

190 severly hurt? easily the best plane in the game atm.

and yeah i deal with the visility issues too.

You have proven to be nothing more than a guy who seeks glory online.You don`t care if actually your advantages are historical or not.You care about having those advantages,regardless if they were therer in the real WWII.

thats almost kurfy like http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif
well, i dont fly in a squad, i fly mostly coops, and i normaly do ground attack. im a pretty awful pilot, and i really dislike doing ****

bnz escort isnt as effective as before, ive flown a few very high alt ones, and the p51 isnt as good as it was before up high.

lw fliers always want to shoot down lots and lots of enemy fighters. many dont even have there bomb key set...

Brain32
01-22-2006, 08:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> 190 severly hurt? easily the best plane in the game atm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You must be playing a completely different game, or you play on places where allied players fly unaware of it's planes abilities.

p1ngu666
01-22-2006, 08:23 AM
what allied plane is better then?

maybe la7 and yak3p but there uber and stupidly overmodeled. theres the corsair too

Brain32
01-22-2006, 08:28 AM
Sig.(Yours)http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

jermin122
01-22-2006, 08:36 AM
Ping, over 6000, 109 has no advatages over spit, none! If you cannot defeat those 4 spit all, then dont say pretty handy, cause real luftwaffer pilot only has one chance to survive. You even dont fly spit? Then how do you conclude 109 is easy than spit?

p1ngu666
01-22-2006, 09:17 AM
handling, stall. firepower (sometimes) and roll rate

normaly ull have VIII's and IX's against late war alcholic 109s. they (109s) have 30mph or so top speed advantage, and a similer advantage in climb, 190s are faster still, but abit worse in climb (depends on speed)

also my american friends constantly moan about the limited ammo, even on the IX's. its one of the best 43 planes tho, along with the 190
against the late 44 stuff, its lacking tho

jermin..

http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//spitvbvs109f4.jpg
no advantage at all? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://premium1.uploadit.org/pingu666//spitvbvs109f2.jpg
that is much closer, vb probably better than f2, but f4 is better.

u can use the speed advantage to run away jermin, and if u had a wingman u could do much better.

its pretty unlikely irl to come across a lone 109 or 190, with a flight of 4 aces.

ud probably need some teamwork to beat lots of them, which is pretty realistic, and why your in a squad isnt it? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

im not in a squad, to avoid BS that happens, but i fly with a fair few squads. a 190 squad, a mixed one, and a american squad regularly, i could join any of them if i wanted http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Grey_Mouser67
01-22-2006, 09:39 AM
If some of you guys would bother to test the Spitfire Vb and its varients, I think you would find some very suprising things....first off the 41 Vb is quite slow and the Vc 2 cannon and 4 cannon variety have the same FM...short cut. Some say that it climbs too fast...don't know about that because I've never seen a generally accepted climb test regime so I dont test for climb rates. The Lf Vb...42 versions are best, down low but their critical altitude is verrry low. Don't know if it correct or not, but it is what it is. The most dissapointing Vb of them all is the 43 version...it is basically a 41 version with clipped wings..maybe Merlin 45? I don't know what Oleg was trying to model, but I believe the 43 Spit MkV's...the ones that saw service through 43-44 had Merlin 61's...not sure on the engine types....but it should have performance very close to the Spitfire Mk IXc...the first one with round rudder and I think it was a Merlin 61.

There is a huge hole in late 42 to mid 43 where we don't have the proper Mk IXc or the proper MkVb.

The Spit MkV 41 is a good match if not dominant over the Bf109F2...the F4 is a completely different and better aircraft and while it can't and shouldn't out turn the Vb, it can do everything else better...climb, roll, speed, dive, climb etc....It probably should, but the speed thing should be much closer, especially at higher altitudes.

Now having said that, I find it not difficult to kill Bf109F-4's if I start with an altitude advantage or draw the Bf109 into a knife fight...sometimes, this used to be better before instant elevator trim, I could get a B&Z'r to follow me down...the high speed elevators of the Spit are better and could turn the tables on the 109....A fun fight and there are a couple of maps where I fight with both 109F4 and Spit MkVb...and I win with both if I fly to my strengths.

Someone nicely correct me with my engine designations as I'm sure I don't have the exact numbers correct, but I do know that it was the engine upgrades through the life of the Spitfire MkV that allowed it to stay servicable through D-Day...that wasn't the 1941 Spit flying around in 1944, be sure!

carguy_
01-22-2006, 10:02 AM
IL2 compare by Youss(IL2 Pacific Fighters 3.02) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

p1ngu666
01-22-2006, 10:20 AM
grey, i dont think mkv's ever got 2 stage superchargers, they had a mid, high or low setting single stage, thats one of the weaknesses, cannon ammo is the other.

the allies kept them in service because they where still reasonable, but also because numbers count, but they would be used for less demanding tasks, close escort, ground attack.

we have the speed of a 9lbs boost spitvb, and the climb of a 16lbs one, which is rather odd..

JtD
01-22-2006, 12:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
If you guys who still think F4 is superior to Spit V, go and try F4 75% fuel vs 4 ace spits v 50% fuel (this time 50% is enough) smolensk map and then post your ntrk here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I don't think so I only tried but won't post here. Lots of fun blowing up those Spits. Would be even more fun if the leaders wingman didn't ram you almost every time in the head on.

Hetzer_II
01-22-2006, 02:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and a similer advantage in climb, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Thats a joke.. or not?
That might be the case if the Spit-pilot forgot to activate the anty-gravity pods...

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

p1ngu666
01-22-2006, 03:49 PM
erm nope, k4 outclimbs anything in the game, bar me163

g14 is probably the cloest to the spit, and probably abit better..

looking at il2c (yes i know its old etc) seems like the alcholic 109s are faster, and climb better at low alt, 2000 to 2500metres, after that we can cast aside the g14, its done well for a g6 thats hit the bottle.

the g6as outclimbs the LF IX too 5000metres, then the supercharger cant keep up with the 2 stage merlin, and it wilts

g10 goes a extra 500metres higher

the k4, the climbin daddy ingame, maintaims 29+metres a sec too 4,500 metres, its abit overmodeled in climb at around those heights by a decent margin, maybe 50% (the roc climb doesnt decay like it should, as the air gets thinner)

at 6000metres it runs out of breath and the spit overtakes it.

g14 is faster till 6000metres~
g10 till 7500, after that it matches the spit
g6as till 6750m
k4, at all heights, be a decent margin too

given the average combat heights, ie 3000metres and below late 109s have better performance, at higher alt they suffer from single stage supercharger, remmber the spit has the same war winning (tm) engine as the p51.

the spitfire and the 109 where always close in performance, but a 109 gives u the best chance to push off home when u want too.

the worst 109s are the g6's, which are worse than the IX spit. even me with my wobbles and awful piloting skills can latch onto a decent 109 driver and stay there, probably take me ages to kill him tho http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

anarchy52
01-22-2006, 04:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
erm nope, k4 outclimbs anything in the game, bar me163

g14 is probably the cloest to the spit, and probably abit better..

looking at il2c (yes i know its old etc) seems like the alcholic 109s are faster, and climb better at low alt, 2000 to 2500metres, after that we can cast aside the g14, its done well for a g6 thats hit the bottle.

the g6as outclimbs the LF IX too 5000metres, then the supercharger cant keep up with the 2 stage merlin, and it wilts

g10 goes a extra 500metres higher

the k4, the climbin daddy ingame, maintaims 29+metres a sec too 4,500 metres, its abit overmodeled in climb at around those heights by a decent margin, maybe 50% (the roc climb doesnt decay like it should, as the air gets thinner)

at 6000metres it runs out of breath and the spit overtakes it.

g14 is faster till 6000metres~
g10 till 7500, after that it matches the spit
g6as till 6750m
k4, at all heights, be a decent margin too

given the average combat heights, ie 3000metres and below late 109s have better performance, at higher alt they suffer from single stage supercharger, remmber the spit has the same war winning (tm) engine as the p51.

the spitfire and the 109 where always close in performance, but a 109 gives u the best chance to push off home when u want too.

the worst 109s are the g6's, which are worse than the IX spit. even me with my wobbles and awful piloting skills can latch onto a decent 109 driver and stay there, probably take me ages to kill him tho http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What a load of cr@p that's all I can say

p1ngu666
01-22-2006, 04:14 PM
well, i would go and test it all, but its a whole load of work just to prove u guys wrong, and ull probably argue about anything i do anyways.

if u wanna fight and dominate spits then use seafires cos they suck.

u may wanna make them carry rockets/bombs too

gx-warspite
01-22-2006, 04:44 PM
Pingu may be a Spit pilot, but he's right.

109s generally hold the speed and climb advantage over same-year Spitfires (the ****-tastic G-6 excepted).

Neither Spit5 will catch either of the F-model 109s, and any 109 with MW50 will easily outrun Spit9s. I wouldn't recommend getting into pitched dogfights with Spitfires, but the 109 is maneuverable enough to stay on a Spit's tail for a while and still have the E to escape if the pilot is smart. Granted, the situation sucks if the Spit has an E advantage, but that's true in all fighter match-ups.

If you guys are really complaining about Spits that much, maybe you should fly them?

Brain32
01-22-2006, 05:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If you guys are really complaining about Spits that much, maybe you should fly them? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well I do fly them, I use SpitfireMk9HF, and I can tell you that if there is something I'm not afraid off, it's the late 109, only G6AS and G2 can give me those creepy feeling, but I was never shot down by them, so far(if we exclude a few bounces), Ta152 can worry me because it's tough but not a real problem... All in all, just check six often and if in doubt, pull your joystick, because German fighters loose energy so quickly that there is no way you can get shot down unless unaware or outnumbered. I said it before and I will repeat it again, I don't think Spit is uber I think the problem is on another side...

p1ngu666
01-22-2006, 05:18 PM
thanks warspite, ingame that is certainly true.

irl with the various versions of both, boost settings, heights, mods, loadouts etc means there is some variation in straightline performance (speed and climb), it swaps between the two.

i dont often fly the spit actully, been flying more recently cos of wobbles, its a challange http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

i mostly fly american planes, 190s, japanease stuff and bombers. Im by no means dedicated to any one plane in the game, and i dont think i ever have been. its what i like about teh sim, i could fly a p47, then a zero, then a 109, then a b25, then a betty, then a 190, then a corsair, then a il2 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

if u fly the other guys planes then ull know his strengths and weaknesses, and fly accordingly.

thats what those real life comparative tests where done for http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

VW-IceFire
01-22-2006, 08:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
erm nope, k4 outclimbs anything in the game, bar me163

g14 is probably the cloest to the spit, and probably abit better..

looking at il2c (yes i know its old etc) seems like the alcholic 109s are faster, and climb better at low alt, 2000 to 2500metres, after that we can cast aside the g14, its done well for a g6 thats hit the bottle.

the g6as outclimbs the LF IX too 5000metres, then the supercharger cant keep up with the 2 stage merlin, and it wilts

g10 goes a extra 500metres higher

the k4, the climbin daddy ingame, maintaims 29+metres a sec too 4,500 metres, its abit overmodeled in climb at around those heights by a decent margin, maybe 50% (the roc climb doesnt decay like it should, as the air gets thinner)

at 6000metres it runs out of breath and the spit overtakes it.

g14 is faster till 6000metres~
g10 till 7500, after that it matches the spit
g6as till 6750m
k4, at all heights, be a decent margin too

given the average combat heights, ie 3000metres and below late 109s have better performance, at higher alt they suffer from single stage supercharger, remmber the spit has the same war winning (tm) engine as the p51.

the spitfire and the 109 where always close in performance, but a 109 gives u the best chance to push off home when u want too.

the worst 109s are the g6's, which are worse than the IX spit. even me with my wobbles and awful piloting skills can latch onto a decent 109 driver and stay there, probably take me ages to kill him tho http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What a load of cr@p that's all I can say </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well seeing as you seem to know more I'd love to hear your well reasoned approach with data to back yourself up?

Fact is that the 109 and the Spitfires are very evenly matched. The 109s tend to have the advantage in speed comparatively while the Spitfires generally have the advantage in turn. Climb goes back and forth. Nothing...nothing except perhaps a few rocket powered aircraft have the climb rate of the Bf109K-4 which is the most uber of coventionally propelled aircraft available. Nothing wrong with that either. Additionally, the Spitfire has the energy retention advantage...historically and in simulation. To what extent that advantage is or is not I don't know...but its fairly well written about.

The way that the Luftwaffe pilots beat Spitfire V's in 1941 and 1942 was diving in, attacking, and leaving. Thats how you should do it...surprisngly or unsurprisingly that tactic works.

The FockeWulf (all variants) is also in my opinion the best fighter, bar none, available in the low to medium altitude range, by year of any fighter currently available for flying. Its not easy to fight effectively in but it is the best in the most categories.

WWMaxGunz
01-22-2006, 10:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Discussion of cannon is over. Crying babies need fed and put to sleep again.
Then please be quiet so they can stay asleep. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Everytime someone whines bout allied cannons,the demons of compromise are awaken http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Compromise? Crud, I'd like to see something real about the guns whine instead of the usual
someone coming in with half their 'facts' wrong and the rest just missing.

And if that doesn't 'work' then it's time to make FM claims as if that proves anything about
the cannon.

Yeah, I can see compromise at work. Whiners build up a stack of manure and expect some kind
of 'deal' perhaps? AKA something for nothing, or cry until things go the desired way.
Only problem is the only one who can say what changes isn't here for some reason.

Hetzer_II
01-23-2006, 04:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the worst 109s are the g6's, which are worse than the IX spit. even me with my wobbles and awful piloting skills can latch onto a decent 109 driver and stay there, probably take me ages to kill him tho Wink2 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


First to this quote..
At the beginning of the SpitVs109 Server on most maps blue just had the normal g6late available.. But guess what... red lost more maps than they won... Funny or not? I mean... it is not easy to be defeaten by a g6 in a 43IX.... just as a side-note.. ;-)

The question of if the 109 can outclimb the IX is closely connected to the situation. Yes, the k4 outclimbs the IX. But only if contact was not to tight.. i mean no k4 can use this advantage in a combat-situation. And this because the Spit can climb and hold very very steep angles during the climb.. no 109 will climb fast enough to outrun the guns... and in 90% of the cases the Spitfire has a very good opportunity to get some very accurate slow-speed shots at the climbing 109... After the first pass the spit will swing aroung with very little energy-loss and in the first time if the 109 did any maneuver gain ground... I would never try to outclimb the Spit in Combat because thats more than a 50% chance of doing suicide...

WWMaxGunz
01-23-2006, 08:14 AM
That must be why in reality in combat if you would climb out, you used a climbing spiral.
And not just in 109's either but any 'better climbing plane' than the other. I think
that this is known in Russia as 'combat climb' but I'd like to be sure. Relative ability
of a plane to do this is one of the big measures Russians used to rate planes and decide
on tactics.

Hint: if you turn as well as climb they have to pull even more lead and won't be able to
hold it on you unless they can also fly while holding that lead.

Can it be that the word advantage doesn't just mean 'do only this and you're safe'? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

p1ngu666
01-23-2006, 08:16 AM
yeah if the guys close, then yep you are abit stuck, unless u have a huge advantage in something

and yes a g6 can shoot down a spit, id say the spit is better, but ofcourse 109 shoots u, then ull die

jermin122
01-23-2006, 08:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gx-warspite:

Neither Spit5 will catch either of the F-model 109s, and any 109 with MW50 will easily outrun Spit9s. I wouldn't recommend getting into pitched dogfights with Spitfires, but the 109 is maneuverable enough to stay on a Spit's tail for a while and still have the E to escape if the pilot is smart. Granted, the situation sucks if the Spit has an E advantage, but that's true in all fighter match-ups.

If you guys are really complaining about Spits that much, maybe you should fly them? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Come to JG54 TS:xgjx.3322.org pass: jackgh. Lets do a 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 test.

p1ngu666
01-23-2006, 08:31 AM
dueling isnt the answer jermin, flying side by side in comparison is the best way to judge relative performance.

duels favour the better climber, and the better turn fighter too, espicialy if there close in performance

VW-IceFire
01-23-2006, 03:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hetzer_II:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the worst 109s are the g6's, which are worse than the IX spit. even me with my wobbles and awful piloting skills can latch onto a decent 109 driver and stay there, probably take me ages to kill him tho Wink2 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


First to this quote..
At the beginning of the SpitVs109 Server on most maps blue just had the normal g6late available.. But guess what... red lost more maps than they won... Funny or not? I mean... it is not easy to be defeaten by a g6 in a 43IX.... just as a side-note.. ;-)

The question of if the 109 can outclimb the IX is closely connected to the situation. Yes, the k4 outclimbs the IX. But only if contact was not to tight.. i mean no k4 can use this advantage in a combat-situation. And this because the Spit can climb and hold very very steep angles during the climb.. no 109 will climb fast enough to outrun the guns... and in 90% of the cases the Spitfire has a very good opportunity to get some very accurate slow-speed shots at the climbing 109... After the first pass the spit will swing aroung with very little energy-loss and in the first time if the 109 did any maneuver gain ground... I would never try to outclimb the Spit in Combat because thats more than a 50% chance of doing suicide... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is true. Too many pilots (myself at one time included) thought that "X plane outclimbs Y plane" means that X plane can just point its nose up and leave the other one behind. I've sinced learned that this is not represented historically...any outclimbing done in combat was done with significant separation and not as a close in defensive manuever.

jermin122
01-23-2006, 08:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
dueling isnt the answer jermin, flying side by side in comparison is the best way to judge relative performance.

duels favour the better climber, and the better turn fighter too, espicialy if there close in performance </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just want to show you how powerful the spit is. Even I seldom fly spit, I can shoot you down, whether you are in a spit or 109. Before you guys discussing the plane performance, are you sure you have flown your ride to its max? If a 109 pilot switchs to spitfire, he can do much better than those spit drivers. 109 is a tougher (or more demangding) A/C than spit. If you are shot down by a 109, dont whine about the plane itself, complaint about your skills first.

WWMaxGunz
01-24-2006, 12:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
yeah if the guys close, then yep you are abit stuck, unless u have a huge advantage in something

and yes a g6 can shoot down a spit, id say the spit is better, but ofcourse 109 shoots u, then ull die </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The kind of advantage so many seem to expect would take at least the kick of a modern twin
engine jet fighter on afterburners plus a handful of seconds lead.

p1ngu666
01-24-2006, 05:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
dueling isnt the answer jermin, flying side by side in comparison is the best way to judge relative performance.

duels favour the better climber, and the better turn fighter too, espicialy if there close in performance </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just want to show you how powerful the spit is. Even I seldom fly spit, I can shoot you down, whether you are in a spit or 109. Before you guys discussing the plane performance, are you sure you have flown your ride to its max? If a 109 pilot switchs to spitfire, he can do much better than those spit drivers. 109 is a tougher (or more demangding) A/C than spit. If you are shot down by a 109, dont whine about the plane itself, complaint about your skills first. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

and this contradicts history how? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

carguy_
01-24-2006, 07:47 AM
It doesn`t.In a way at least.

If you think that doesn`t reallt say anything than stop giving duel pilot accounts as a proof of P51 being a better maneuvering plane,faster,etc.

Duels do matter in a plane vs plane topic.

Lets see here,there is a rather wide "current" of posters saying thet FW190 is the best plane cuz it easily handels situations in pairs/four.OTOH there is a "current" of players whining because some P51 wiseguy described as he can easily aoutmaneuver the 109.

In this matter the FW190 doesn`t need any tuning but the P51 is an undermodelled plane ofcourse.

The fact is,the Spitfire can do far better in numbers because individuals have a big safety margin.The only problem is that the majority of Spit drivers can`t understand SA and teamwork.

mynameisroland
01-24-2006, 08:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
indeed helltoupee, its beyond me why ppl are cryin about the german planes, (apart from he111 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

109 is tricky with convergance, but 190 is current king

btw, i find the mg151/20 easier with the 190 than hispano on spitfire, probably due to the 190 being far better gunplatform.

but cheer up, the mg151/20, with its worse muzzle volcity, energy retention, and self destructive ammo, outranges the hispano (which didnt have self destructive ammo)

if u would care to answer that one, with some decent reasoning, im all ears http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

109 F's are faster and climb better, and are much less wobbly, and much more forgiving. i havent got a good convergance for 109s currenty, but use 750 for 190 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pingu you need to get your joystik sorted. You have to be the only pilot on these forums who have difficulties shooting down Bf 109's in the Spitfire.

JtD
01-24-2006, 09:24 AM
I have difficulties hitting anything smaller than a battleship in a Spitfire.

faustnik
01-24-2006, 10:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
I have difficulties hitting anything smaller than a battleship in a Spitfire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was flying on the Spitfires vs. 109s server, nice server BTW, and got a really memorable shot in a Spit V. A Bf109 was trying to escape by diving. I backed off my prop pitch and trimmed the Spit nose-down. The dive was about even and he still had 500+ meters on me. He was going straight so I lined up a shot and tapped the cannon only. The tracers interesected perfectly with the 109 and his wing popped right off. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif There was a lot of luck involved in that one but, it was still really fun. Hispanos are good guns! (But for those with wobbly Spits...good luck... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif )

WWMaxGunz
01-24-2006, 10:25 AM
Gotta love a nice steady target.

Let's see now... even with the current FM favoring slats planes, the Spitfires are all
overmodelled because the 109's should pwn them but don't and that is why the 151's are
wrong.

Where is this history of 109's having it over the Spitfires? Hurricanes, I can understand
but now it's the Spitfires too? Well, okay the 109's often had an edge in speed. IIRC
that is why they hit and ran in the cross-channel fights and why the 190's staying to fight
was such a big surprise.

faustnik
01-24-2006, 10:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:


Let's see now... even with the current FM favoring slats planes, the Spitfires are all
overmodelled because the 109's should pwn them but don't and that is why the 151's are
wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

?????????????

AustinPowers_
01-24-2006, 10:52 AM
He is being sarcastic, Faust.

Brain32
01-24-2006, 11:00 AM
Nobody(or very few) claim a Spit is overmodelled regarding FM, OK it's energy retention is awsome but nothing that can not be countered. The only remaining thing that bothers me about the Spit is it's funky DM, it seems that it does not suffer from initial hit(2x20mm) I 've shot and been shot at but the damage caused by mg151/20 can be ridiculous, I was hit in wings/tail with a good burst but I could still manouver like nothing happened, I get pis*** when flying blue constantly, yesterday it took me 8 bursts(combined 13mm and 20mm) to finally stop a Spit, OK that was the extreme example, and I most certainly do not expect them to fall apart from one shot, but they don't suffer from damage until you stuff 'em up with lead and that is a bit annoying. I can handle it(especially when I fly them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif) but I don't have to like it or accept it as realistic.

faustnik
01-24-2006, 11:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AustinPowers_:
He is being sarcastic, Faust. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I get that, I'm just don't understand the reason for the sarcastic comment.

JtD
01-24-2006, 11:42 AM
Mate, I got two Spit Vb within a few seconds with a single hit of MG 151. Dewinged both. Set another one on fire just a few seconds later with a long distance salvo. Stats told me I scored 7 hits altogether.

There is certainly no way to seriously suggest Spits should take less damage.

Brain32
01-24-2006, 11:57 AM
Well mate, since I fly on WC almost exclusively I mostly meet mk8 and mk9, and I can only dream of getting two Spits with 7 hits. If you want I'll record it to show it to you...

p1ngu666
01-24-2006, 11:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mynameisroland:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
indeed helltoupee, its beyond me why ppl are cryin about the german planes, (apart from he111 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

109 is tricky with convergance, but 190 is current king

btw, i find the mg151/20 easier with the 190 than hispano on spitfire, probably due to the 190 being far better gunplatform.

but cheer up, the mg151/20, with its worse muzzle volcity, energy retention, and self destructive ammo, outranges the hispano (which didnt have self destructive ammo)

if u would care to answer that one, with some decent reasoning, im all ears http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

109 F's are faster and climb better, and are much less wobbly, and much more forgiving. i havent got a good convergance for 109s currenty, but use 750 for 190 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pingu you need to get your joystik sorted. You have to be the only pilot on these forums who have difficulties shooting down Bf 109's in the Spitfire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

its not my joystick http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
its "the wobbles" that some ppl have

gunnery in some planes becomes very hard, espicaly against a small moving target like a 109 or 190

109s can often take a surprising amount of hits, but if i can hit them then they die http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

sometimes planes are tough, sometimes they fall apart. ai stuka's are tough and have a uber gunner, human ones fall apart and have a ****** in the back seat http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

HellToupee
01-24-2006, 02:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Well mate, since I fly on WC almost exclusively I mostly meet mk8 and mk9, and I can only dream of getting two Spits with 7 hits. If you want I'll record it to show it to you... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well i dunno what im flying but it rarely survives the first hit, yet i witness 109s soak up bullets like a sponge and fly as if new.

p1ngu666
01-24-2006, 03:25 PM
109s tend to have less random wingdrop that other planes get with damaged wings, ive seen lots of guys fly back with big holes in the wings asif well trimmed.

the dms are screwy, i mean abit of damage to a zeros wing makes it all horrible, despite there being tons and tons of wing actully being left.

theyve made it subjective imo, thats why we get odd stuff..

il2s are the most easily damaged aircraft ingame, near certain that 1 pass will leave u with a jammed gun and/or missing controls

WWMaxGunz
01-24-2006, 06:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:


Let's see now... even with the current FM favoring slats planes, the Spitfires are all
overmodelled because the 109's should pwn them but don't and that is why the 151's are
wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

????????????? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh cripes don't take that last part personal Faustnik! I'm just remarking from a had it
up to the eyes with the trend of the last few pages which has gone 'whiner cliche', if
they can't make a point one way then stir the next closest thing up like it bears on the
thread subject.

Gee, the 190 cockpit view is restricted and Plane Z's is not. Please, add radar and
guided missiles to the 190's! The good Russian missiles, not the so-so NATO missiles.

JG53Hunter
01-24-2006, 11:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
109s tend to have less random wingdrop that other planes get with damaged wings, ive seen lots of guys fly back with big holes in the wings asif well trimmed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi there,

I think the above is a myths created out of the texture that is used for wing dammage on the 109.
Yes, i have flown the 109 home with big holes in its wing. But on enougth occations i had trouble holding the bird in the air and there was no option to land because on lowspeed i could not hold the wing up.

crazyivan1970
01-25-2006, 01:00 AM
Ok...this topic is going nowhere.... moved to GD. You guys are amazing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

anarchy52
01-25-2006, 01:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
109s tend to have less random wingdrop that other planes get with damaged wings, ive seen lots of guys fly back with big holes in the wings asif well trimmed.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is no randomness just like with 190. Any hit on the wing will cause signifficant "wing drop" and a tendency to roll towards the damaged wing.
Many if not most allied planes can continue to fightafter recieving 20mm hits on the wing. This is not red vs blue thing, it's just facts. You get 20mm on the wing of 109 you're crippled, quite unlike LaGG, Spitfire, P-38. Yaks however do get hurt by 20mm hits.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
the dms are screwy, i mean abit of damage to a zeros wing makes it all horrible, despite there being tons and tons of wing actully being left.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The things I'm looking forward to in BoB is really complex DM and engine modelling. Not eye candy or double deckers driving around the streets of London. You are correct about Zero, single .50 cal hole in the wing will cause disproportionate loss of manuverability and performance.

It seems as if wings have a simple formula if hit by weapon.
level_of_damage = (weapon_power * number_of_hits)/strength_of_wing_section

with Zero's strength coeficient being modelled very low. The truth is that wing damage would affect heavily wingloaded aircraft more then the light wingloaded planes with a lot of wing area to spare. Also cannons should really hurt and machine guns even the heavy ones won't do much damage in terms of aerodynamics (You wouldn't even feel being hit).

IMHO the aerodynamic effect of hits on the wing should be calculated simply by removing wing area and adding drag from and to the affected wing. So single MG or even AP cannon round hit will take rather small piece of the skin while HE cannon round would cause a big gaping hole and be felt in the aircraft handling.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
il2s are the most easily damaged aircraft ingame, near certain that 1 pass will leave u with a jammed gun and/or missing controls </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
[/QUOTE]
On the other side to reliably kill IL-2 you need an obscene amount of hits. B-25 is even worse as it can take about 200 hits from D-9 in good long concentrated bursts. It will die EVENTUALLY, but still...

WOLFMondo
01-25-2006, 02:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
Well mate, since I fly on WC almost exclusively I mostly meet mk8 and mk9, and I can only dream of getting two Spits with 7 hits. If you want I'll record it to show it to you... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but some Spits do come apart all to quickly after a very short burst. I don't fly them, don't even like them but there one of the easiest kills to get when you connect with a shot.

stathem
01-25-2006, 04:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
109s tend to have less random wingdrop that other planes get with damaged wings, ive seen lots of guys fly back with big holes in the wings asif well trimmed.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is no randomness just like with 190. Any hit on the wing will cause signifficant "wing drop" and a tendency to roll towards the damaged wing.
Many if not most allied planes can continue to fightafter recieving 20mm hits on the wing. This is not red vs blue thing, it's just facts. You get 20mm on the wing of 109 you're crippled, quite unlike LaGG, Spitfire, P-38. Yaks however do get hurt by 20mm hits.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
the dms are screwy, i mean abit of damage to a zeros wing makes it all horrible, despite there being tons and tons of wing actully being left.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The things I'm looking forward to in BoB is really complex DM and engine modelling. Not eye candy or double deckers driving around the streets of London. You are correct about Zero, single .50 cal hole in the wing will cause disproportionate loss of manuverability and performance.

It seems as if wings have a simple formula if hit by weapon.
level_of_damage = (weapon_power * number_of_hits)/strength_of_wing_section

with Zero's strength coeficient being modelled very low. The truth is that wing damage would affect heavily wingloaded aircraft more then the light wingloaded planes with a lot of wing area to spare. Also cannons should really hurt and machine guns even the heavy ones won't do much damage in terms of aerodynamics (You wouldn't even feel being hit).

IMHO the aerodynamic effect of hits on the wing should be calculated simply by removing wing area and adding drag from and to the affected wing. So single MG or even AP cannon round hit will take rather small piece of the skin while HE cannon round would cause a big gaping hole and be felt in the aircraft handling.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
il2s are the most easily damaged aircraft ingame, near certain that 1 pass will leave u with a jammed gun and/or missing controls </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

On the other side to reliably kill IL-2 you need an obscene amount of hits. B-25 is even worse as it can take about 200 hits from D-9 in good long concentrated bursts. It will die EVENTUALLY, but still... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, look, Spits do suffer badly when hit in the wing - I daresay other ppl can vouch for the other allied a/c. I have lots of experience of being shot whilst flying the Spit.

p1ngu666
01-25-2006, 04:48 AM
indeed they do for me, on some u really haveto fight the aircraft just to stay in the air, the 109 isnt one of those..

maybe its cos of slats, or something else too

p38 and p47 remain reasonable to handle, especialy if u use the all axis trim http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

and yes i know about how the damage effects are just "fixed". thats when u crash a perfectly fine plane, often itll look like u have been shot up http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

mynameisroland
01-25-2006, 05:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
I have difficulties hitting anything smaller than a battleship in a Spitfire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the problem with the Spitfire is hitting targets from dead 6, from all other angles even head on I find them quite easy to hit with.

The best scenario for the Spitfires guns is when you are in any sort of a turn, instantaneous or sustained, as soon as you see the planform of the enemy scoring hits is so easy. The velocity of the Hispanno is very different from the Mg 151 maybe you are over leading the target. I know that when I fly Fw 190 in one mission then switch to the Spitfire I have to readjust how much I lead targets and how I go about setting up shooting opportunities completely.

Nubarus
01-25-2006, 05:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
On the other side to reliably kill IL-2 you need an obscene amount of hits. B-25 is even worse as it can take about 200 hits from D-9 in good long concentrated bursts. It will die EVENTUALLY, but still... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bwahahahaha.

Or are you not joking?

If not then I suggest you learn how to aim better because I only need one pass at a B25 in a FW190D9 and the flimsy little bomber has at least one engine on fire....at least. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

p1ngu666
01-25-2006, 05:15 AM
he just has wobbles

http://files.filefront.com/spit1avi/;4630889;;/fileinfo.html

http://files.filefront.com/spit2avi/;4630906;;/fileinfo.html

some planes are worse than others, 109, 190 get off lightly, i16 does wobble but only a small amount

spits, p51's, corsiars are all pretty bad

if u dont have wobbles, then planes fly like on rails.

mynameisroland
01-25-2006, 07:22 AM
I fly CW all the time Pingu, the problem its seems is that you are putting in short sharp rudder inputs. Do you have pedals? Twist rudder or do you use keyboard? When you apply rudder in your track it shows you almost jabbing at it with no smooth beginning or end to the movement. Like wise all of your aerilon movements seem to be short and sharp. If you treat the Spitfire like this it wobbles terribly. If you are smooth and gentle in your inputs you will have no problem.

When flying the Spitfire I have no problems executing turns that are tighter than the Bf 109 can follow, I can climb, dive and roll with no departure unless I really try and I find it extremely easy to dogfight in.

I can replicate your problems by using your style , If you try flying with more gradual inputs you should feel and see a difference.
The only type in the game that wobbles for me with absolutely no control input is the Corsair.

Xiolablu3
01-25-2006, 07:39 AM
DOes the p51 have no wobble issues for you Bo?

As I have put in another thread my top three wobblers are :

1:P51D
2.Corsair
3.Hellcat

I dont find the SPit to have wobbles, its one of my fav planes.

Jumoschwanz
01-25-2006, 07:47 AM
The shot terminology is off a bit.

A lead shot, is when the plane firing is following the target on a curved path and fires ahead of it to hit it.

In a deflection shot, the plane firing is not following or on the same path as the target, merely firing a stream or rounds where he estimates the target will fly in the future.

Both are tough to make in real life or on a full-real server, where you have part of the plane blocking your line of sight, or the target is actually hidden from view under the nose of your own plane.

I don't use lead shots if I can help it, I think the deflection shot is a much more useful and effective tool to have, and it negates having to pull lead at all, just fire straight and let the target fly through.

That said, to make deadly deflection shots, you have to have a lot of rounds strike the craft, and that is tough to do in a 109 with one cannon in the nose, and a weaker hitting cannon than the Hispano in this sim to boot.
That is why I always fly with gunpods when in a 109 if I can. No it does not handle that well with them on, but I am not turning with anyone anyway right? I have lots of tracks of opponents flying through deflection shot while they are doing fancy turns in front of me while I am NOT following them.

Jumoschwanz

mynameisroland
01-25-2006, 07:48 AM
The P51 D has wobbles but only when Im flying very fast ( circa 700km/h ) very low - sub 500m; this might even be down to the map and if turbulence is modelled. If I fly it conservatively around 2000 to 5000 m I experience no wobbles at all. Ive got a few kills in the P51.

Saying that I like the Corsair too and I dont let the wobbles put me off. Against Japanese fighters its awesome on Sunday night I literally blew up a Ki84 and ended the map with 7 kills in one sortie in it, and I would gladly take it up to fight Luftwaffe fighters, the only thing is that the Mustang is faster than the Corsair so makes better sense.

Kocur_
01-25-2006, 07:48 AM
Regarding taking hits from MG151/20. Large difference is made by which projectile hits. If its API or HE, than the target is happy, because those two have very, very little effect. OTOH if its MG the result is much bigger. It took me 44 API/HE hits at He-111 wing tip, to cut outer wing off, and 8 MG to achieve the same (firing from nose of another He-111). 44/8 = 5,5... (btw: another proof, that bombers DM is greately ovemodelled, or... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif)
Another issue is distance. The game has a serious flaw concerning effectiveness of explding projectiles. It is obvious that they lose way too much of their efectivness over distance. IRL there would be little, to no difference in efectivness of explosive shell if hit was from 50m or 250m. But game's modelling of damage as it seems multiplies, projectile "power" factor and KE, which decreaces over range. So one may have very different observations depending on usual distance of firing.
At short distance shortest burst from Fw190A will de-wing/de-tail( http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif) any plane. Yesterday I hit with a good, 1s-like burst a La-7 at like 350m. Lots of explosions on it, enough to have it exploded at short distance, but no effect but minor holes in one wing.

Jetbuff
01-25-2006, 08:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Ok...this topic is going nowhere.... moved to GD. You guys are amazing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It took you 9 pages to realize this? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

p1ngu666
01-25-2006, 08:15 AM
im not jabbing the stick really hard, or moving it like a ludite.

they just wobble about even if im very very gentle.

sure it looks like im flying like a caveman, but im not...

mynameisroland
01-25-2006, 08:57 AM
But when the track goes in to cockpit view I can see your rudder pedals move sharply, its like a jabbing movement at the pedals. This would cause the aircraft to wobble laterally.

horseback
01-25-2006, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jermin122:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Luftnards were getting shot down too much </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that true? One spit now can T&B 5 German fighters without any problem. Everytime I encounter a spit at the same altitude my first manuever is bound to be split-s, then dive and escape. Flying spit requies only 1/10 skills than that of German fighters. That is why so many people prefer German fighters. Balance the game like this will only make spitfire a beginner's plane.

If Marseille flew the 109 F4 in the game to fight spitfire V, He would had been dead for millions of times. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Not if the Mk Vc with the big performance ******ing filter was what he was flying against (and he was-Marseille NEVER faced enemy aircraft with equal or better performance than his own in North Africa).

As for the in-game Spit, it handles beautifully until you pull the trigger. It then shudders and bounces all over the place, so that if you don't disable or destroy your target with the first few rounds, you have to re-establish firing position after clearing your six.

By and large, I find the contemporary 109s just as fast or faster, with a better climb and equal handling, and when you fire your guns, you can keep them on your target long enough to destroy it, unless you miss and he's just better than you, once he knows you're there.

LW fighters are by far the easiest to fight in in-game.

cheers

horseback

Kocur_
01-25-2006, 10:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:
LW fighters are by far the easiest to fight in in-game.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean: of the western world planes...? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

jugent
01-25-2006, 11:31 AM
I wrote about this before and stated

"When I fly german I am surprised that I miss, and when I fly red I am surprised that I hit"

And the effect of the HE is bigger the closer u get.
Lets face the fact, this game is not in favour of the LW-A/C.
Three separate tests states that the Spit V, Spit IX and FW-190 A4? got equal climbrate to 5k, and that spit got bad acceleration.

anarchy52
01-25-2006, 11:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nubarus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
On the other side to reliably kill IL-2 you need an obscene amount of hits. B-25 is even worse as it can take about 200 hits from D-9 in good long concentrated bursts. It will die EVENTUALLY, but still... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bwahahahaha.

Or are you not joking?

If not then I suggest you learn how to aim better because I only need one pass at a B25 in a FW190D9 and the flimsy little bomber has at least one engine on fire....at least. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not joking, I did several passes he was smoking, shot up, missing an engine, lost controls but still flew (for a while at least). number of hits comes from user STAT command. That happened on your favourite DF server which seems to be the etalon for everything on this forum. Before engagement i have scored 240 something, after that B-25 it was 430 something hits.

I took out Pe-8 with an emil, single head on pass. I also took out Pe-8 with F4 single pass. i average about 25%-28% hits for bomber targets doing high speed passes. On the other hand if you parked a B-25 and shot rounds into it so that they spread out evenly, I doubt it could take 100 20mm cannon rounds.

p1ngu666
01-25-2006, 12:05 PM
if u park on the 6 of a b25, its a bad idea cos of the 2 turrets, and the rounds are ineffective.

curiously, b25 have engine fire extinguishers, engines hardly ever flame, fuel tanks do tho

Nubarus
01-25-2006, 02:23 PM
The B25 cannot soak up 100 20mm rounds as anarchy52 claims.

Unless he manages to shoot every round into an invulnerable spot that all planes in this sim have, but I seriously question his claim since I have flown against B25's plenty of times and have flown them enough to know they are not build to withstand large amounts of damage.

Besides, from his little story about the user STAT it's pretty obvious he cannot have shot over 100 20mm rounds into that B25 since the FW190D9 only has two 20mm cannons and the other two are the crappy 13mm HMG's.

Shooting the fuel tanks on fire on a B25 is pretty easy and once they are on fire it will spread all over the wing and it will go down quickly.

anarchy52
01-25-2006, 02:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nubarus:
The B25 cannot soak up 100 20mm rounds as anarchy52 claims.

Unless he manages to shoot every round into an invulnerable spot that all planes in this sim have, but I seriously question his claim since I have flown against B25's plenty of times and have flown them enough to know they are not build to withstand large amounts of damage.

Besides, from his little story about the user STAT it's pretty obvious he cannot have shot over 100 20mm rounds into that B25 since the FW190D9 only has two 20mm cannons and the other two are the crappy 13mm HMG's.

Shooting the fuel tanks on fire on a B25 is pretty easy and once they are on fire it will spread all over the wing and it will go down quickly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

~200+ hits, both 20mm and 13mm are synched to fire through prop. I estimated that half of the hits were 20mm. Maybe it was 99 or 85 or 105 who knows, but yes B-25 can take a lot.

Nubarus
01-25-2006, 02:29 PM
Sure, now if you really believe that I suggest you make a track of it and send it to pf@1c.ru and maybe they will tell you what you are doing wrong........

anarchy52
01-25-2006, 02:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nubarus:
Sure, now if you really believe that I suggest you make a track of it and send it to pf@1c.ru and maybe they will tell you what you are doing wrong........ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll check for the track. If I post the track will you admit being an a$$?

p1ngu666
01-25-2006, 02:46 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

ive had b25s take alot of hits, suffer damage but carry on, and ive had a few hits give terminal damage.

and its fairly easy to PK bomber pilots, due to there need to man the guns themselves for anything but tiny chance of effective defense

Nubarus
01-25-2006, 04:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nubarus:
Sure, now if you really believe that I suggest you make a track of it and send it to pf@1c.ru and maybe they will tell you what you are doing wrong........ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll check for the track. If I post the track will you admit being an a$$? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do I care about your track?
I said send the track to pf@1c.ru if you are oh so sure there is a severe issue with the B25 DM.
Besides, online tracks don't really show what is going on with the game engine anyway since it add's packet loss and lag.

And name calling already? I guess it hurts your feelings when someone thinks your full of it.......... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

HellToupee
02-08-2006, 12:13 AM
i was flying a b25 once and lost a wing to a D9 in a single pass, once i was flying a D9 and exploded a B25 with a 2 sec burst coming from above and infront, occasionally they take many hits, the he111 i notice takes even more hits than a b25 more consistantly. But 200? unless u are completly hopeless it should be dead by that stage.