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View Full Version : 20mm on the Bf-109 G-14?



Schlum66
02-23-2005, 07:05 AM
The Bf109 G-14 had a 20mm, not a 30mm as modelled in the game. I would like to see the Bf109 G-14 with the 20mm, if the 151/20 bug is sorted out.

In online combat Bf109 pilots prefer the 30mm, because the 20mm is so undermodeled. In real life the German pilots prefered the 20mm against fighters because of the firing rate and flatter trajectory.

MOhz
02-23-2005, 07:13 AM
This has already been pointed out. You are right to the point about the Germans, but Oleg modeled the Hungarian 109G14s. They were of a better quality and since the policy is to use the best plane data, we have Hungarian G14s ie 30mm.

PBNA-Boosher
02-24-2005, 05:13 PM
My friend Gottfried Dulias flew the Bf-109G-14/AS in '44 and '45. He was a Luftwaffe pilot, not Hungarian, and his 109 had a 30mm in the hub.

3.JG51_BigBear
02-24-2005, 05:26 PM
I think the 30MM versions were produced both in German and Hungarian factories. The Germans also produced a 20MM version but since the rule always has been to go with the best available data, and the Hungarian built 109s were of higher quality than those being produced in Germany by the end of the war, we got the Hungarian ones.

butch2k
02-25-2005, 01:48 AM
Hungarian accrordig to German docs produced G-14/U4s not simple G-14s hence the MK108 in the Gyor produced a/c. I would have preferred Oleg modeled the G-14 and made the /U4 as an option.

MOhz
02-25-2005, 07:43 AM
Butch, they may have built U4 according to docs, but that is not the point. The point is that Hungarians built the best G14s (I am not saying the most) and they mainly built 30mm G14s, so inless you want a worse quality G14 then you have to take it as it comes. Anyway with BoB everything is going to be better http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif!!

jagdmailer
02-25-2005, 09:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by butch2k:
Hungarian accrordig to German docs produced G-14/U4s not simple G-14s hence the MK108 in the Gyor produced a/c. I would have preferred Oleg modeled the G-14 and made the /U4 as an option. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Welcome to this club Butch.

I also would have liked to have simply the /U4 option on the G-14, along with several other features for the whole Bf 109 lineup. ie. an early 1944 non MW50 G-6/AS, an early 1944 G-6/U2 field mod MW-50 (converted from G-6/U2 GM-1) just to name a few. Bombs and drop tanks on Friedrich would have been great too.

A 1945 G-10 & K-4 with 2000hp DB605DC would have been fun in there as well, specially with the TLD add-on (The last Days). I know about the small numbers and the generalized lack of fuel by that time, but they were there.

BTW, what should the current 1944 G-6/AS with MW50 should really have been named ? G-6/ASM ? Just want you opinion since you are the 109 Guru.

BTW2, welcome back !

Regards,

Jagd

The190Flyer
02-25-2005, 01:48 PM
I wouldn't doubt that the G-14 had a 30mm in the prop for German 109's think they had 13mm MG's, can't remember thou?

http://www.milartgl.com/HTML_3a/messerschmitt_country.htm

p1ngu666
02-25-2005, 05:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The190Flyer:
I wouldn't doubt that the G-14 had a 30mm in the prop for German 109's think they had 13mm MG's, can't remember thou?

http://www.milartgl.com/HTML_3a/messerschmitt_country.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

there was a alot of places making planes at the end of the war, hungarian ones where best quality, but fitted with mk108. hungarians had a agreement to give so much % of there production to germans i think. i think 20mm was the main cannon till k4, in german made 109's

Platypus_1.JaVA
02-28-2005, 07:54 AM
Why does anyone ever want a 20mm gun instead of the Mk-108?

VW-IceFire
02-28-2005, 08:06 AM
Despite its a-historical weakness of loadout, the 20mm can still be a potent anti-fighter weapon.

HeinzBar
02-28-2005, 10:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
Why does anyone ever want a 20mm gun instead of the Mk-108? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

S!,
If the documents being thrown around are correct in regards to the 20mm, then I would gladly take the 20mm of the 30mm fighter vs fighter. Being an A6 jockey for the most part, the 4x20mm should be as scary as the 30mm to most bandits. However, I understand why most people take the 30mm over the currently modeled 20mm. The option to have the 20mm in the 109 should be a given. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

HB

JG54_Lukas
02-28-2005, 01:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jagdmailer:
BTW, what should the current 1944 G-6/AS with MW50 should really have been named ? G-6/ASM ?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

G-14/AS. The G-14 series, in short, was a modification of the G-6 to use the MW-50 boost.

BlackStar2000
03-01-2005, 10:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Despite its a-historical weakness of loadout, the 20mm can still be a potent anti-fighter weapon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

jagdmailer
03-25-2005, 11:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by butch2k:
Hungarian accrordig to German docs produced G-14/U4s not simple G-14s hence the MK108 in the Gyor produced a/c. I would have preferred Oleg modeled the G-14 and made the /U4 as an option. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know it is not going to change at this point in time but bump for historical accuracy when modelling WWII aircrafts anyway.

Jagd

NorrisMcWhirter
03-25-2005, 11:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlackStar2000:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Despite its a-historical weakness of loadout, the 20mm can still be a potent anti-fighter weapon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it's a serious and believable comment. The 151/20 is very effective on Zeros. Not much else but that's enough to make the statement true http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Norris

p1ngu666
03-25-2005, 12:27 PM
its deadly vs il2 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

BenQ-the-Hawk
03-27-2005, 12:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
its deadly vs il2 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


good joke


i would use the right modeled 20mm cannon quite often because it hast many advantages:

-good fire rate
-much ammo
-better ballistics ( sorry don't know the englisch word)

and if it was modeled correct, it would be quite easy to shoot a fighter! Just think that with Mk 108 you hit very seldomly but if you hit he is almost downed. With the MG 151/20 you hit more often but less effektive. So if the MG 151/20 was modeled correctly i would use it almost always against fighters in the 109 up to the G-6 /AS

TheGozr
03-27-2005, 12:30 AM
MOhz Wrong ,false the policiy is not ...

Hristos
03-27-2005, 12:37 AM
With things as they are now, I'd rather have MG FF over MG151/20.

Vipez-
03-27-2005, 04:44 AM
Oleg replied to mail of my friend, saying he will add Minegrenade-shells in hub MG151/20.. so there is still hope to get a realistic german 20mm http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

let us hope so..

JG52Karaya-X
03-27-2005, 08:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jagdmailer:
BTW, what should the current 1944 G-6/AS with MW50 should really have been named ? G-6/ASM ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Our Bf109G6/AS in game should actually be renamed to Bf109G14/AS as it has a DB605ASM engine that uses MW50 and develops about 1800hp at 1,7ata

A "real" Bf109G6/AS is simply a Bf109G6 with DB605AS engine (1550hp) using C3 fuel IIRC - as a result it has superior performance to a standard G6, especially at high alts

JG52Karaya-X
03-27-2005, 08:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hristos:
With things as they are now, I'd rather have MG FF over MG151/20. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


So true! It's really ridiculous how the MGFF/M is so much more deadly than the MG151/20 in FB/AEP/PF... this is because our MGFF/Ms DO have mineshells whereas our Mauser 151/20 DOES NOT have mineshells.

If the Mauser had the correct belt-load it would be completely superior to the Oerlikon - in destructive power, in V0, in ballistics and of course ammo supply

p1ngu666
03-27-2005, 09:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BenQ-the-Hawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
its deadly vs il2 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


good joke


i would use the right modeled 20mm cannon quite often because it hast many advantages:

-good fire rate
-much ammo
-better ballistics ( sorry don't know the englisch word)

and if it was modeled correct, it would be quite easy to shoot a fighter! Just think that with Mk 108 you hit very seldomly but if you hit he is almost downed. With the MG 151/20 you hit more often but less effektive. So if the MG 151/20 was modeled correctly i would use it almost always against fighters in the 109 up to the G-6 /AS <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no, really it is effective vs il2. or maybe its the mg guns on the 109 that do all the damage? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

jagdmailer
03-27-2005, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jagdmailer:
BTW, what should the current 1944 G-6/AS with MW50 should really have been named ? G-6/ASM ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Our Bf109G6/AS in game should actually be renamed to Bf109G14/AS as it has a DB605ASM engine that uses MW50 and develops about 1800hp at 1,7ata

A "real" Bf109G6/AS is simply a Bf109G6 with DB605AS engine (1550hp) using C3 fuel IIRC - as a result it has superior performance to a standard G6, especially at high alts <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not do any tests with the in-game G-6/AS so I was just speculating initially. Do you know for a fact that the in-game performance of the G-6/AS is equivalent to a real life G-14/AS ?

Jagd

JG52Karaya-X
03-27-2005, 11:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jagdmailer:
I did not do any tests with the in-game G-6/AS so I was just speculating initially. Do you know for a fact that the in-game performance of the G-6/AS is equivalent to a real life G-14/AS ?

Jagd <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What kind of "proof" do you need? It has the more aerodynamic late war MG cover (which was introduced after the Bf109G14, it has a DB605ASM and it has the Erla Haube...

And a Bf109G6/ASM as you mention really IS a Bf109G14/AS - because the

G6/ASM (which as such doesnt exist IIRC) means G6 with AS engine that's run with higher boost and MW50 (as anti-detonant)
G14/AS means G14 (which originally uses DB605AM boosted engine and MW50) with DB605ASM engine instead

result: Bf109G6/ASM = Bf109G14/AS

VW-IceFire
03-27-2005, 12:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vipez-:
Oleg replied to mail of my friend, saying he will add Minegrenade-shells in hub MG151/20.. so there is still hope to get a realistic german 20mm http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

let us hope so.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That'd be nice if it were true...

I'll cross my fingers. I'll be back to 4 cannon FW190s before you can say wurger! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
03-27-2005, 04:43 PM
Hi,

Well, he did say that it would be present in hub firing 151/20s. I wouldn't be at all surprised, because I'm a cynical b*stard and I know how things work around here now, that he PURELY meant the hub firing 151/20.

What's the betting that the 190 cannons somehow find themselves singled out? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And yes, I do hope this is just a wind upt...

Norris

Ruy Horta
03-28-2005, 05:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MOhz:
Butch, they may have built U4 according to docs, but that is not the point. The point is that Hungarians built the best G14s (I am not saying the most) and they mainly built 30mm G14s, so inless you want a worse quality G14 then you have to take it as it comes. Anyway with BoB everything is going to be better http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oleg's claim that Hungarian Bf 109 G-14s were superior is arguable, perhaps they were (at least some of them) delivered with a higher standard of final finish, compared to the mass produced German crate, but just remember where the bulk of sub parts in those Hungarian a/c came from. Did the engine originate in Hungary, did any of the major systems?

There might even be a chance of a simple misinterpretation of data (the G-14 although an attempt at standardization of production was still a perrty varied type).

Again, I have found Oleg's claim arguable at best. Personally I take the whole issue with a grain of salt. And I agree with Butch, any G-14 should simply have been the most produced anyway, ad with a U4 option on the side.

Wrote so before, but after a while everything sounds negative, so yeah for FB+AEP+PF.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

WWMaxGunz
03-28-2005, 07:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BenQ-the-Hawk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
its deadly vs il2 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


good joke


i would use the right modeled 20mm cannon quite often because it hast many advantages:

-good fire rate
-much ammo
-better ballistics ( sorry don't know the englisch word)

and if it was modeled correct, it would be quite easy to shoot a fighter! Just think that with Mk 108 you hit very seldomly but if you hit he is almost downed. With the MG 151/20 you hit more often but less effektive. So if the MG 151/20 was modeled correctly i would use it almost always against fighters in the 109 up to the G-6 /AS <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no, really it is effective vs il2. or maybe its the mg guns on the 109 that do all the damage? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It really should considering that when the 2nd version 151/20 to make AP ammo mix for gunpods
was added, it was to add the mix called out for attacking IL2's on the East Front and 4 engine
bombers also, according to Oleg when he posted about how there is 2 different 151/20's. MG
is not good against armor like IL2 it seems. AP is and currently all non-gunpod 151/20's have
extra AP and heavier fragment HE shells in place of thinwall MG shells.

So for DF players the thing to do is get the Allieds to fly IL2's..... yes, I joke!