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falco_cz
08-17-2004, 05:36 AM
Hi all,

while I'm new to the board I do have *some* online flying under belt mostly in me109 pit. But I still don't know how to fly Me109 in online combat.
When trying hgigh speed B&Z tactic I'm not able to handle it in high speed (heavy elevator&delayed trim) and also MG151/20 seems to require some "parking" time on enemy's six to deliver some damage.So B&Z while recommended is very hard in Me109 and T&B against those Yaks/LaGGs is not option too.
What's left? Any *other* tactic for getting kills?
Thanks for advice/suggestions!

falco_cz
08-17-2004, 05:36 AM
Hi all,

while I'm new to the board I do have *some* online flying under belt mostly in me109 pit. But I still don't know how to fly Me109 in online combat.
When trying hgigh speed B&Z tactic I'm not able to handle it in high speed (heavy elevator&delayed trim) and also MG151/20 seems to require some "parking" time on enemy's six to deliver some damage.So B&Z while recommended is very hard in Me109 and T&B against those Yaks/LaGGs is not option too.
What's left? Any *other* tactic for getting kills?
Thanks for advice/suggestions!

Tooz_69GIAP
08-17-2004, 05:39 AM
being sneaky is good. Mostly when I get kills in a 109 it's coz noone saw me, and I sneak up on the "tail end charlie", or an isolated aircraft, and park for those precious couple of seconds, and blast him, then bugger off. It works a treat!!! Just swoop down with some speed into his low 6, and come up to about 150m, and slightly below him and just blast away at his engine and/or wing root. Then zoom away as he spirals downward minus a wing, or in flames.

Not that I do this often, but it's sooooo good when it happens!!!!

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)
Executive Officer, 69th GIAP
Za Rodinu!
Petition to stop the M3 motorway through the Tara-Skryne Valley in Co. Meath, Ireland (http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/petition.html)

Xnomad
08-17-2004, 05:57 AM
Some people make tracks of their online play and host them on the web here is a link to one of them from Hart_Dreyer who has loads of tracks for you to watch:

http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

jeroenrepk
08-17-2004, 06:06 AM
I'm rather new to online flying too, but the BnZ tactic is one thing that does realy work quite well for me.

Normaly I zoom in on an ennemy with about 600km/h, hit him and climb again. Usualy I need to repeat this proces about 4 or 5 times before the ennemy actualy goes down, but It can be done in one pass, if you can aim good enough. And if the ennemy turns away (they usualy do because I fly with padlock, externals and icons because full realism is just too hard for me at the moment) I simply just get hight and dive on him again, if he keeps turning he will lose all his speed and eventualy he can't turn or he will stall, this is when you can hit him hard.

JG14_Josf
08-17-2004, 07:14 AM
Falco_cz,

I think the best advice for you is to be patient. What you describe is normal and when that situation occurs during my flying (often) I say to myself: be patient.

Also: Don't think about getting kills. That will come. Think about tag. If you tag someone with one hit you win. Don't let him tag you back.

The current version may have changed the damage model from the last version. If so the following may not now apply.

Often the target will end up going down as a kill even though it didn't explode on your first pass.

Here is an example:


http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Cut%20the%20corner.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Looks%20high.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/Just%20a%20little%20late.jpg

http://mysite.verizon.net/res0l0yx/30mm%20love.jpg

My wingman Scott and I followed this P-40 while playing on the Warclouds server. He saw us approaching in time to make a fade to the left and then a hard break turn to the right.

Maybe I'm just getting better but I didn't lead his left, I did lead his right with this shot.

I told my wingman Scott to let that one go.

He said: OK, I saw the hit.

It went down.

P.S. The same patient game of tag can be played with the MG151/20s. Tag them and don't let them tag back. Be patient. Kills are not as important as learning how to be patient. You will find this to be true, even with the MG141/20s, even if the game doesn't tally any damage with the current 20mm cannon. The next version, or the next flight sim game will be more accurate. Learning how to be patient is the way to fly the Messer, unless you are a reincarnation of Hemlut Lipfert http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by JG14_Josf on Tue August 17 2004 at 06:25 AM.]

dshazel
08-17-2004, 08:58 AM
Falco_cz,

Best tactical advice in flying a 109 online... Get a wingman! This will allow you more time to refine your Energy work. One on one I fear no Western Theater AC with my late war 109. We usually stick with the G14 and/or the G6ASM. As far as early/mid war The Franz and G2 pretty much out class both Eastern and Western AC.
You are going to have to learn to "anticipate" the control stiffness when engaging at high speeds. Once you get used to the compression characteristics, you'll have a much better understanding of what you can do and not do. Depending on your HOTAS setup I would highly recommend trying to get your elevator trim on a rotary tip dial.
Personally, I never use flaps when fighting, I will try and use the verticle to cut turns, and work the elevator trim. It's amazing how many folks just stay in a flat turn and then are amazed how the 109 out turned their Spit/LaLa/Yak.
Gunning with a 20mm is tough because very rarely will you drop an AC with one pass. This is were the wingman in indespensible ( lets you concentrate on the kill and give you time to work on your shots). I recommend you learn how to shoot the 108, it's almost required in the late war DF servers to survive. And finally, http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif always assume your target has more E than it appears to you.

Cheers,

JG14_Scot

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2004, 09:41 AM
Another track to check out:

109E Track File (http://www.naysayers.com/HurrisMalta.zip).

If overspeeding is your only B&Z problem, it's likely that you're not managing your throttle. Watch this track and listen as the engine spools down and up, depending on what I'm doing. If you're going to commit to a dive, throttle well back; gravity will get you back the speed you "lose" by cutting back. Fire it back up as you climb out again.

The biggest problem most people have with B&Z is lack of patience. They start turning with their targets. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif No, the correct thing to do is climb back out, reassess your overall situation and dive back in on the enemy.

Anyway, have a look at this track and keep on practicing.

NippleCorn
08-17-2004, 06:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Another track to check out:

http://www.naysayers.com/HurrisMalta.zip.

If overspeeding is your only B&Z problem, it's likely that you're not managing your throttle. Watch this track and listen as the engine spools down and up, depending on what I'm doing. If you're going to commit to a dive, throttle well back; gravity will get you back the speed you "lose" by cutting back. Fire it back up as you climb out again.

The biggest problem most people have with B&Z is lack of patience. They start turning with their targets. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif No, the correct thing to do is climb back out, reassess your overall situation and dive back in on the enemy.

Anyway, have a look at this track and keep on practicing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just Checked Out your track file. Some good kills there. Is that a 109 E series? I think I remember seeing squared off wingtips.

One thing that always confounds me in a furball is trying to positively ID the bad guys. I always end up having to get into point blank range before I can really see who I'm tailing/crossing.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2004, 07:12 PM
Yep, an E7, if I remember correctly.

Visuals are hard in this sim, and unrealistically so. That's why some form of icons are really necessary if you want a more realistic experience (but that's another debate for another thread). But, you can often make your decisions based on the situation. It is *sometimes* pretty obvious that a plane headed in the same direction as you, and not diving, is friendly, etc., etc.

OldMan____
08-17-2004, 07:15 PM
Id a plane is very easy after you know a few tricks.

1- know what planes are in the server!!

2- Notice that bf109 does have a different LOD setting than other planes.. it changes LOD in different distances. In far distances even later gustave have square wings.

3- P51 are almost always silver (sicne almost noone play with earlier ones). They appear most against forest.. contrary to other planes

4-Very round wings from far distance means an Spitfire o P47 (between these two is easy to ID)

5- Have in memory GUN pattern for each plane!!! Single blue tracer means 109, double blue tracer means 190 (this plane is hard to ID positive against P51) lots of red dots.. american planes... etc... don´t even need to speak about green lasers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

6- watch their behavior.. if it turns tightly probably is a P51 not a 190.. If make full stop while in hammerhead is a 109 not spitfire (they bend sideway before reaching 80 km/h)

7 If it is outrunning, outmaneuvering, outclimbing everyone.. it is an LA7.. get the hell out of there.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

Zatorski
08-17-2004, 09:15 PM
Don't be afraid to use combat flaps to pull out of a fast, not blisterring, dive. The 109 will really spin the altimeter with the flaps, pulling back hard on the stick is not required. release the flaps after hitting 200 km/hour, you should have shot up at least 800 meters.

The 109 will accelerate hard during negative g's. What I mean by that is perform barrell rolls going level, you will pick up speed faster than flying staight and level.

The ideal firing solution is you diving straight down, with opponent struggling to gain altitude or falling off a prop hang, rake them along the fusilage and if there isn't a kill, recover, climb and wait until they have lost directional authority.

You are doing bnz right if you feel safe.

The best guide I have ever read for flying the 109 was by a fellow named Vulgar, I apologize I cannot find his guide right now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/2/24/Mosquito.inflight.250pix.jpg

WaffenKatze
08-17-2004, 10:11 PM
I have another stupid/newbish question

while in limited icon server. essential parts of important thing for driver of Luftwaffe plane is.. spot enermy first capability.
but my problem is... enermy dot just disappear about 1~1.5km distance when I stay high than him cause background of grass, forest, etc etc making him invisible! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif but (I guess) he would easily see me with my white/blue background.

And 70% my fight was start with being attacked first. (is this why I swiched 109 to 190. more durablity and Agil with roll!! oh other 20% is zoomed tracer 5% is co alt head-on and other 5% is Rtb with out combat)

well.. my question is which setting would help spoting dot?

My graphic card is Gf4Ti4200, Any comment is great for me

ps. Sorry for crappy engilsh.

falco_cz
08-18-2004, 01:04 AM
Thank you all for your suggestions! Yes I'm too often unpatient, ending in furball following by fireball in short time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. I will take better care about my energy state next time. Also thare is big room for impovement in my gunnery, still sucking with Mg151/20 (it seems that Mg151/15 is better?).

jurinko
08-18-2004, 02:16 AM
ahoj falco

MG 151/20 is 20mm size and MG 151 is 15mm size. 15mm has higher muzzle velocity but reduced effect and has almost no effect on Russian planes.

When taking 109 I fly usually with 20mm gunpods and I climb to 6-7km to be 2km above the highest enemy. I select targets flying only in reasonable altitude, never go under 3000-4000m. Those guys in 4000m think nobody is above them and they scan the area only bellow, and then I come http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ak si z ceska, pozri si nase forum:

http://www.scitech.sk/svz

---------------------
Letka_13/Liptow @ HL

WaffenKatze
08-18-2004, 02:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jurinko:

When taking 109 I fly usually with 20mm gunpods and I climb to 6-7km to be 2km above the highest enemy. I select targets flying only in reasonable altitude, never go under 3000-4000m. Those guys in 4000m think nobody is above them and they scan the area only bellow, and then I come http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ahhh.. that make sense. I've often cruise around 3k~4k http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

OldMan____
08-18-2004, 05:17 AM
Remember to put you VGA drivers quality settings up. Ans test with different FSAA settings. Too much aliasing is bad.. but too much AA also blur small points.

Always use at least 2x Anisotropic Filtering. Anisotropic Filtering makes gounnd textures at far distances more accurate.. so easier to ID something against them.

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

LStarosta
08-18-2004, 09:39 AM
Stick to boom and zoom, and get a wingman, and don't be afraid to try out the "Swinger's Lifestyle". What I mean by that is that it is a good idea to not only fly with your own wingman, but to fly with another pair. For this it may be a good idea to use the finger four formation, while always ready to split into two pairs if enemy aircraft are spotted.

It's best if one Rotte (pair of aircraft) peels off and the second Rotte covers as the first pair attacks from considerable altitude advantage. If your force consists only of your own Rotte, you should REALLY carefully pick your fights. Again, from an altitude advantage, dive, shoot, extend upwards. Your wingman should be closely observing you and the surroundings, intervening to clear your six if needed. Try not to fly alone. You are an easy kill for a pair of airplanes, and flying alone gives you no offensive or defensive advantage in a fight. Therefore, find a wingman, a good friend who you know and have voice communications with during your flights.

Practice various defensive tactics such as "drag and bag". If someone gets on your six, maneuver in such a way that your wingman can easily shoot the enemy down and clear your tail. Once you get good at this, you can use this defensive technique in an aggressive and offensive way.

Remember, just because you see an enemy aircraft does not mean you HAVE to go after it. When in doubt, chicken out. Attack only when you know that you will succeed, and when you do, have your wingman with you in case something goes wrong.


Best of luck, and good hunting!!

http://home.comcast.net/~l.starosta/sig2.jpg
Spacer nad Berlinem!

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2004, 01:08 PM
In case you need an introduction, here's an article on the Drag and Bag (http://www.naysayers.com/9jg52/dragandbag.htm).