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Kuna_
09-07-2006, 06:30 PM
This poll is about best piston in combat early 1945. War in (or better) over Europe.
By some reports and available info, I consider this fighter (the latest Focke Wulf) to be one of the most serious candidates for first place.

There have been only 9 aircraft shot down by this type, but all pilots that have opportunity to fly it have expressed their positive thoughts about it.
The last kill (if I'm not mistaken) by TA-152 was against Tempest, where German pilot in fact outturned RAF fighter on deck and then shot it down (pilot report).

This thread isn't really about fastest, or in some other way most uber aircraft, but best aircraft overall. From your point of view.

Kuna_
09-07-2006, 06:30 PM
This poll is about best piston in combat early 1945. War in (or better) over Europe.
By some reports and available info, I consider this fighter (the latest Focke Wulf) to be one of the most serious candidates for first place.

There have been only 9 aircraft shot down by this type, but all pilots that have opportunity to fly it have expressed their positive thoughts about it.
The last kill (if I'm not mistaken) by TA-152 was against Tempest, where German pilot in fact outturned RAF fighter on deck and then shot it down (pilot report).

This thread isn't really about fastest, or in some other way most uber aircraft, but best aircraft overall. From your point of view.

HayateAce
09-07-2006, 06:36 PM
Cool, P51 wins. What do I get?

Kuna_
09-07-2006, 06:38 PM
Too soon to tell. Perhaps unporked 109?
http://www.trackskills.com/New-109.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

p1ngu666
09-07-2006, 06:41 PM
what, no mossie? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

mossie with 25lb boost http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

for fightery stuff, tempest/XIV (looks and performance, and looks and performance, AND to annoy the lw http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif)

p47n best american

yak9u, sexy! fly cos it makes u weak at the knees http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

german, dora.

Kuna_
09-07-2006, 06:44 PM
p1ngu fighter-bombers aren't allowed. Mosquito is in that category. Only pure twin-prop fighter in this category AFAIK was/is P-38L.

p1ngu666
09-07-2006, 06:46 PM
ah you bugger http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

VW-IceFire
09-07-2006, 07:07 PM
RE: Combat between the Tempest and Ta-152....the Tempest pilot tried to turn too tightly and stalled the Tempest into the ground (this was very low level dogfighting). I don't believe the Ta-152 ever fired a shot at the Tempest...I have yet to find a really good report on that piece of history.

I'd love to say that the Tempest is the best overall piston engined fighter...but I'd have a hard time saying that because of some of its defects and areas of weakness (high altitude especially). It was on its way to becoming the best...but it wasn't there yet.

Most of the others have their problems as well. I haven't made up my mind for voting yet...its a tough decision.

carguy_
09-07-2006, 07:14 PM
ACHTUNG SPITSFEUER!!!

LStarosta
09-07-2006, 07:27 PM
Where is P.11bis?

3.JG51_BigBear
09-07-2006, 08:49 PM
Fw 190D-9/152 series gets my vote.

The following are my opinions on the various plane types after having read a lot of books, a lot of stuff online and played a lot of flight sims. These are only opinions. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The D-9 had good range, good firepower, it could fight well at high and low altitudes, had good visibility, wide track landing gear, it was highly manueverable for a late war fighter and it had excellent control authority at high speeds. Pilot accounts also tend to show that the plane was a very smooth flying aircraft and a stable gun platform. The D-9 also benefited from simple controls and automatic systems (a realy blessing for the new pilots stepping up to fill the Luftwaffe ranks). The D-9 was also a relatively easy aircraft for pilots familiar with the Focke Wulf series to transfer into because its cockpit layout was very similar to the A series.

The Ta-152 aircraft have have always appeared to me to be specialized aircraft. Rather than one aircraft that could carry on different tasks well, the D-9, the Ta-152 series included a number of aircraft that performed specific fighter roles exceptionally.

The Mustang had excellent range, high speed manueverability, etc. but was best suited to the escort role. As a point defense fighter it was subpar because its high wing-loading and average rate of climb made it a less than stellar close in dog fighter and its inline engine and rear mounted radiator made it a poor ground attack aircraft.

The Spitfires were excellent aircraft but suited more to point defense whereas the Focke Wulf D-9 was a better multi-role.

The Tempest/Typhoon were excellent ground pounders and low altitude interceptors but they were very heavy and their high altitude performance was lacking.

The Bf109K was an excellent high altitude fighter/bomber interceptor but lacked significant ground attack capability and had limited range. Pilots also complained of a "ballooning" effect at high altitude that made formation flying difficult. The G-10 was really the best of the 109 late war models as a pure fighter.

The la-7 lacked high altitude performance and range. As a low-mid altitude point defense fighter it was terrific. The plane could still break up high speeds and had an uncomfortable cockpit (very important in real life, not a sim).

Yak-9U, I don't really know much about this one. From the game it seems to have many of the same attributes of the la-7...good low-mid altitude point defense fighter.

The P-38L was very fast, had an excellent rate of roll with the power boosted ailerons, great range, could carry a very heavy payload, tricycle laninding gear, twin engine reliability and an excellent cockpit setup. It was heavier than most fighters, its shape made it easy to identify, and it didn't have any serious performance edge over its German advesaries.

The P-47 was quite possibily the best fighter in the ETO overall throughout the entire war but as the war drew to a close the D models were relegated to ground attack and the high performance P-47s found their way to the Pacific. By the end of the war the P-47D model was in a similar class with the P-38.

R_Target
09-07-2006, 08:51 PM
190D, F8F, F4U-4, P-38L.

faustnik
09-07-2006, 09:34 PM
Looking at that list makes me think a lot of airforces were reaching the peak of piston a/c development by then. The only thing seperating the planes on that list is the pilot.

LEXX_Luthor
09-07-2006, 09:37 PM
Kuna:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This thread isn't really about fastest,... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh yes indeed! Advance Google this phrase ~&gt; faster than the luftwaffe , and read the cache'd article.


P51H:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The Mustang was 50 mph faster than the Luftwaffe. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The P-51 was faster than the Luftwaffe. So There! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

ElAurens
09-07-2006, 09:52 PM
P51H for the win.

BBB_Hyperion
09-07-2006, 10:09 PM
Do535 missing .)

p1ngu666
09-07-2006, 10:20 PM
p47 was 100mph faster than the luftwaffe lexx http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Jaws2002
09-07-2006, 10:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
RE: Combat between the Tempest and Ta-152....the Tempest pilot tried to turn too tightly and stalled the Tempest into the ground (this was very low level dogfighting). I don't believe the Ta-152 ever fired a shot at the Tempest...I have yet to find a really good report on that piece of history.

I'd love to say that the Tempest is the best overall piston engined fighter...but I'd have a hard time saying that because of some of its defects and areas of weakness (high altitude especially). It was on its way to becoming the best...but it wasn't there yet.

Most of the others have their problems as well. I haven't made up my mind for voting yet...its a tough decision. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


In the words of Ofw. Reschke:

"Two enemy fighters were spotted some eight kilometres to the south-west of the field, making low-level passes over Ludwigslust railway yards. Three Ta 152 took off at once, piloted by the Oblt. Aufhammer, the Ofw. Sattler and myself. We were immediately in contact with the enemy fighters, which turned out to be Tempests. Flying in n?3 position, I witnessed the Ofw. Sattler ahead of me dive into the ground seconds before we reached them. It was hardly possible for his crash to have been the result of enemy action, as the Tempest pilots had clearly only just registered our presence. Now began a fight at two against two at the ground-level, which was never to climb above 50 metres. At this altitude neither could afford to make the slightest mistake. And for the first time since flying the Ta 152 I began fully to appreciate exactly what this aircraft could do.

"Pulling ever tighter turns, I got closer and closer to one of the Tempests, never once feeling I was even approaching the limit of the Ta€s capabilities. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside me had failed. My first burst of fire caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage; its pilot immediately engaged its aircraft in a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapons fell silent and refused to fire another shot. However, the Tempest, which had already taken hits continued desperately to twist and turn, and I positioned myself so that I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually, inevitably, it stalled. The Tempest€s left wing dropped and he crashed into the woods immediately below us, about one kilometre of the site from Sattler€s crash. The Tempest pilot, the W/O O.J. Mitchell was buried side by side with the Ofw. Sattler next day in Neustadt-Glewe cemetery with full military honours".


But this doesn't mean the TA-152 was superior to the Tempest.

LEXX_Luthor
09-07-2006, 10:52 PM
okay pingu so P-47 could out dive the luftwaffe and the US NAVY too but only because it weighed more than the luftwaffe and NAVY.

msalama
09-07-2006, 10:58 PM
t3H $tüRm0v1K w0N T3h w4R. B sür3.

p1ngu666
09-07-2006, 11:05 PM
nah, i saw it on video luthor, was 100mph faster than anything the luftwaffe had.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

was the ta152 withdrawn from service?

BBB_Hyperion
09-07-2006, 11:33 PM
Wow 100 mph faster ? 540 mph +100 mph not bad for a prop plane .)

leitmotiv
09-07-2006, 11:45 PM
P-47 <span class="ev_code_RED">M</span>

HellToupee
09-07-2006, 11:55 PM
ild say tempest + spitfire xiv http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif, tempest very fast low to mid level fighter with good controls and heavy firepower. SPitfire xiv excellent high alt fighter speed topping out over 440mph as fast as p51 while having superior firepower climb and turn.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
The Spitfires were excellent aircraft but suited more to point defense whereas the Focke Wulf D-9 was a better multi-role.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

d9 was less of a multirole plane than the antons it was a fighter, it had no more roles than the spitfire did bomb capacity range all pretty similar.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
The Tempest/Typhoon were excellent ground pounders and low altitude interceptors but they were very heavy and their high altitude performance was lacking. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

but they also had a lower wingloading and morepowerful engine than the 190s, while they high alt performance was lacking that was where the spitfire xiv took over.

Xiolablu3
09-08-2006, 12:36 AM
For pure Dogfighting I would say Spitfire. Also for all altitudes low and high, its good in all situations.

For pure air to air I would say FW190D, its a bit faster than the Spitfire and still pretty manouvrable. Having the option to choose whether the fight happens at all, is just such a huge advantage. ALthough Tempest comes close, I think the 190 just shades it thx to being better up high.

La7 gets a 'highly commended'. As does the Ki84.

Unfortunatly the US fighters lose out a bit here because they are all hybrids and not meant just as short range dogfighters. If it was best multirole fighter-bomber then the US planes would be high up in the ratings.

BiscuitKnight
09-08-2006, 01:07 AM
Why are the 190D and Ta-152 listed the same? They looked similar, but they were more different than the 190D to the 190A.

BBB_Hyperion
09-08-2006, 02:12 AM
df is a dying discipline since ww1 .)

For d9 it should only be placeholder until ta152 is ready bur i would agree it is indeed a complete overhauled design.

mynameisroland
09-08-2006, 03:28 AM
Fw190 D9 and P51 D at proper boost

Joint 1st for the best fighter.

D9 edges it on straight fighter to fighter combat, Mustang has the ability to fly all day and disengage and re engage without worrying about fuel and it also peforms better up high.

So it averages out really. Difference was there were thousands of P51s in service at anyone time and there were only a few hundred operational D9s at any one time. Thats the deciding factor. Had the D9 been in production from mid 1943 like it could have/ should have been ( Jumo 213 engines were being used in Ju 88s even in 1942 IIRC and 1st trial Fw 190 D9 flew in 1942! ) The devastation of the Jagdwaffe would not have occured in 1944.

Kuna_
09-08-2006, 04:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BiscuitKnight:
Why are the 190D and Ta-152 listed the same? They looked similar, but they were more different than the 190D to the 190A. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Because they've served in their designated units only for fragment of period compared to FW-190A series service in LW, and are coming from the same series of aircraft. P-47D/N were also different aircraft as almost all of them are, from series to series. Tempest/Typhoon, this version that version etc. etc., Mustang Mk.III (in P-51C body) Mustang Mk.IV in (P-51D body) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif etc. lol. I've choosen to put them together.

I've put them together out of convenience, nothing more. So we will get the answer on latest serving aircraft series more accurately, rather than precise model.

WOLFMondo
09-08-2006, 04:43 AM
Kuna, please delete the Typhoon after the Tempest. Typhoon was once quoted as a cart horse compared to the race horse which the Tempest was.

Typhoon and Tempest are not the same plane and have vastly different performance and different roles. The Hurricane is about as similar to the Typhoon as the Typhoon is to the Tempest. They used the same engine and forward fuselage, thats about it.

Kuna_
09-08-2006, 04:46 AM
Didn't know that; anyhow I would do that, but that will erase all voting so far. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
They look quite similar... that I suppose, confused me.

BiscuitKnight
09-08-2006, 04:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna_:
Because they've served in their designated units only for fragment of period compared to FW-190A series service in LW, and are coming from the same series of aircraft. P-47D/N were also different aircraft as almost all of them are, from series to series. Tempest/Typhoon, this version that version etc. etc., Mustang Mk.III (in P-51C body) Mustang Mk.IV in (P-51D body) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif etc. lol. I've choosen to put them together.

I've put them together out of convenience, nothing more. So we will get the answer on latest serving aircraft series more accurately, rather than precise model. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Works for me. You probably already know, but the D used an anular radiator, whereas the radial Fw-190A had no need for any radiators. The differences between the Fw-190A and D are so large it's almost suprising the D model wasn't named the Ta- something, then the Ta-152 was so different from the Fw-190 they only retained a basic fuselage shape, and that's even quite different.

I do see where you're coming from, neither did serve for anything like the periods of the other planes listed. But why not just list the Ta-152? Curiosity.

WOLFMondo
09-08-2006, 06:20 AM
I'd say the Ta152C, Tempest V Series II or Spitfire XIV.

tigertalon
09-08-2006, 06:25 AM
Voted the 152C/190D for the exact reasons Boemher, Icefire, Xiola and BigBear stated.

tigertalon
09-08-2006, 06:28 AM
Kuna, is this poll only for ETO? Because I miss USN and Japanese fighters here... but my voting wouldn't change. Maybe it would be interesting to create new poll with PTO?

MEGILE
09-08-2006, 06:29 AM
Mustang IV

Kuna_
09-08-2006, 06:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
Kuna, is this poll only for ETO? Because I miss USN and Japanese fighters here... but my voting wouldn't change. Maybe it would be interesting to create new poll with PTO? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah mate this is about ETO crates. You can start another one with PTO rides... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'll probably vote P-38L or N1K2-J, something in that direction.

Kuna_
09-08-2006, 06:59 AM
I see some posts about P-51H. Googled it a bit and here it is:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> http://home.insightbb.com/~p51h/p51h.htm (http://home.insightbb.com/%7Ep51h/p51h.htm) wrote:
By mid 1944, Mustangs were taking control of the skies over Europe and the Army began to plan ahead to the invasion of the Japanese home islands. Taking the research results from the experimental Mustangs, N.A.A. developed the P-51H design featuring higher speed, better maneuverability, and longer range. The "H" model was essentially the same as the XP-51G with a smaller canopy, lengthened fuselage, improved visibility from a raised cockpit, and the new Packard-Merlin V-1650-9 engine with water injection giving the new Mustang a top speed of 487 mph. The P-51H became the fastest production piston engine fighter produced during WWII.
...
With the end of hostilities, the Army Air Force promptly cancelled many orders for aircraft, including the P-51H. Production was allowed to continue until all of the pre-built sub-assemblies were used up, resulting in a final production total of 555 P-51H Mustangs.
The British, at whose request the development program had been initiated, apparently never received any of the new Mustang. No order was placed as the war in Europe ended, as did the RAF requirement for the new fighter.
Produced too late in the war, the P-51H did not see combat. During the Berlin crisis and subsequent Berlin Airlift, the Air Force deployed P-51H's to the only direct front the USA had with the Soviet Union. "H" Mustangs were deployed to the harsh environment of Alaska to guard this distant frontier, but no conflict developed there. In addition, P-51H Mustangs served as long-range escort during the initial development of the new Strategic Air Command. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It appears that those beasts never saw ETO service.
About Thunderbolt, it seems that aircraft was a nightmare to LW FW-190 units. I've read Osprey's FW-190 aces on western front and many, arguably majority of killed/shot down wurger known/famous pilots, because of invading P-47s. I didn't count them, I've got that impression after reading the book.

stathem
09-08-2006, 07:05 AM
Ta 152.

Isn't that the Focke-wulf variant that served in miniscule numbers, and had a 50% chance of bursting into flames every time you tried to do a sortie in it?

Does the expression, 'rushed into service in deseperation before it was really ready' mean anything? It saw service in a combat zone becuse the only bit of sky left to the Germans in 1945 was all combat zone.

To my mind it doesn't really belong in a list of WW2 fighters. Generationally, it's (ETO) competitors are Spitfire F.21 and 22, Tempest II and VI, Fury, P51H.

Ratsack
09-08-2006, 07:22 AM
There's not much in it, but for my money it's the Spitfire XIV: no Dora or 109 would be out running it. Ta 152, maybe. Its excellent turn, climb, speed and respectable dive (at long last), all add up to one extraordarily capable air-to-air killer.



Ratsack

Abbuzze
09-08-2006, 08:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:


P51H:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The Mustang was 50 mph faster than the Luftwaffe. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


The P-51 was faster than the Luftwaffe. So There! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who would doubt this! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I think the P51H was even "more" faster than the personalised Luftwaffe.

http://www.cancerbox.com/cancerblog/wp-images/goering.jpg

Brain32
09-08-2006, 08:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Isn't that the Focke-wulf variant that served in miniscule numbers, and had a 50% chance of bursting into flames every time you tried to do a sortie in it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Produced in low numbers yes, but the bursting into flames thing is rather ridiculous, a standard procedure for starting a for example Tempest engine included one guy with fire extinguisher, somebody biased might add any kind of failure precentage he likes based on that fact but would that actually mean anything? Not to me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> To my mind it doesn't really belong in a list of WW2 fighters. Generationally, it's (ETO) competitors are Spitfire F.21 and 22, Tempest II and VI, Fury, P51H. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And yet unlike Ta152 neither of those saw ANY kind of action in ANY numbers in WW2. They don't even fall in the category of WW2 fighters, more like post WW2 fighters http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

stathem
09-08-2006, 08:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Isn't that the Focke-wulf variant that served in miniscule numbers, and had a 50% chance of bursting into flames every time you tried to do a sortie in it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Produced in low numbers yes, but the bursting into flames thing is rather ridiculous, a standard procedure for starting a for example Tempest engine included one guy with fire extinguisher, somebody biased might add any kind of failure precentage he likes based on that fact but would that actually mean anything? Not to me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suppose the Smithsonian (http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/focke_ta152.htm) are just some biased set of know-nothings.

When I looked at this ages ago, I found some serviceablitly rates which is why I said "50% chance" How ever you read them (if you can find them) they don't make pretty reading. No allied piston fighter would be cleared for use with those kind of problems or servicabilty rates.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> To my mind it doesn't really belong in a list of WW2 fighters. Generationally, it's (ETO) competitors are Spitfire F.21 and 22, Tempest II and VI, Fury, P51H. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And yet unlike Ta152 neither of those saw ANY kind of action in ANY numbers in WW2. They don't even fall in the category of WW2 fighters, more like post WW2 fighters http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said they did, I said the Ta shouldn't either. If the allies were prepared to cut the corners the Germans had to, they could have been operational.

WOLFMondo
09-08-2006, 08:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brain32:
To my mind it doesn't really belong in a list of WW2 fighters. Generationally, it's (ETO) competitors are Spitfire F.21 and 22, Tempest II and VI, Fury, P51H. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And yet unlike Ta152 neither of those saw ANY kind of action in ANY numbers in WW2. They don't even fall in the category of WW2 fighters, more like post WW2 fighters http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif[/QUOTE]

The first Tempest II rolled of production lines in April 1944. It didn't see any action though.

The Spitfire Mk21 did fly operationally in WW2. It probably flew as many sorties as the Ta152.

FYI to the original poster, the Tempest II was not an ETO fighter and never was meant to be. It was designed for the far east.

tigertalon
09-08-2006, 09:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
When I looked at this ages ago, I found some serviceablitly rates which is why I said "50% chance" How ever you read them (if you can find them) they don't make pretty reading. No allied piston fighter would be cleared for use with those kind of problems or servicabilty rates. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, please. If allies were loosing the war, defending last unocupied territory from axis attackers, they'd also throw everything at the enemy...

stathem
09-08-2006, 10:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
When I looked at this ages ago, I found some serviceablitly rates which is why I said "50% chance" How ever you read them (if you can find them) they don't make pretty reading. No allied piston fighter would be cleared for use with those kind of problems or servicabilty rates. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, please. If allies were loosing the war, defending last unocupied territory from axis attackers, they'd also throw everything at the enemy... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course..which is why i said later in the post

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
If the allies were prepared to cut the corners the Germans had to, they could have been operational. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

*bold for emphasis.

WOLFMondo
09-08-2006, 10:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
When I looked at this ages ago, I found some serviceablitly rates which is why I said "50% chance" How ever you read them (if you can find them) they don't make pretty reading. No allied piston fighter would be cleared for use with those kind of problems or servicabilty rates. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, please. If allies were loosing the war, defending last unocupied territory from axis attackers, they'd also throw everything at the enemy... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Merlin with 36lbs boost please.

tigertalon
09-08-2006, 10:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
When I looked at this ages ago, I found some serviceablitly rates which is why I said "50% chance" How ever you read them (if you can find them) they don't make pretty reading. No allied piston fighter would be cleared for use with those kind of problems or servicabilty rates. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, please. If allies were loosing the war, defending last unocupied territory from axis attackers, they'd also throw everything at the enemy... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course..which is why i said later in the post

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
If the allies were prepared to cut the corners the Germans had to, they could have been operational. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

*bold for emphasis. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oops, sorry for not reading it through. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Abbuzze
09-08-2006, 10:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
Wow 100 mph faster ? 540 mph +100 mph not bad for a prop plane .) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not only 540mph but 562mph@ 19685ft, thats Mach 0,935 in horizontal flight.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif Yeah thats impressive! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

p1ngu666
09-08-2006, 10:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Between October 1944 and February 1945 when production ended, Focke-Wulf managed to roll 67 completed Ta 152 aircraft (H-0, H-1, and C-1 models) off the line but these fighters put on a disappointing show. Some aircraft were lost to engine fires while a variety of other engine problems and spares shortages grounded most of the fleet. By April 30, 1945, only two Ta 152C-1s remained operational. The Luftwaffe had grounded all H-models--an ignominious end for combat aircraft with great potential. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wow, thats twice as good as my working record, maybe http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

btw i think its normal procidure to have a chap with a fire extinguisher ready. ofcourse some engines are more likely to ksplode than others http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

p1ngu666
09-08-2006, 10:38 AM
nah the same video gave topspeed as 432mph i think. so infact the lw was speed limited to 330~mph for all aircraft.

/extends away in his spit vb http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Monty_Thrud
09-08-2006, 10:41 AM
Good lord is it that time again...

As i said before and shall say forever more, as it was in teh beginning so it shall be in teh end... the Spitfire and nipping at her heels the Tempest...Halleluiah brothers and sisters...AMEN! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

faustnik
09-08-2006, 10:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by p1ngu666:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Between October 1944 and February 1945 when production ended, Focke-Wulf managed to roll 67 completed Ta 152 aircraft (H-0, H-1, and C-1 models) off the line but these fighters put on a disappointing show. Some aircraft were lost to engine fires while a variety of other engine problems and spares shortages grounded most of the fleet. By April 30, 1945, only two Ta 152C-1s remained operational. The Luftwaffe had grounded all H-models--an ignominious end for combat aircraft with great potential. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wow, thats twice as good as my working record, maybe http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

btw i think its normal procidure to have a chap with a fire extinguisher ready. ofcourse some engines are more likely to ksplode than others http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where did that come from P1ng? Operational C-1s?


EDIT: Nevermind I see it. I don't think C-1s were ever operational, from everything else I've read.

Vike
09-08-2006, 10:52 AM
Considering the fact that the Yak9-U was one of the best fighters of the end of WW-II with good weaponry/agility characteristics AND considering the fact that a Yak9-U was shot down by Erich Hartmann in his Me109K4 the May 8th 1945 (yes,THAT day http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif),i would consider the K4 as one of them if not the best,as long as an experienced pilot flies it.

Moreover,the K4 performs better than P-51D at most altitudes,including the sea-level (590 vs 607km/h) IRL. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

"The Bf 109 was flown by Erich Hartmann, the top scoring fighter ace of all time with 352 confirmed victories. <span class="ev_code_yellow">Hartmann refused to fly any other airplane in combat throughout the war.</span>
(...)
The Bf 109 K-4 was the fastest 109 of WWII reaching ~715 km/h (445 mph) at 7,500 m altitude; improved propellers were being developed when the war ended which would boost the speed to 727 km/h (452 mph), or even 741 km/h (460 mph). Rate of climb was outstanding, up to 24.5 m/s at sea level. With such improvements in performance, the Bf 109 remained <span class="ev_code_yellow">comparable to the highest performance Allied or Soviet fighters until the end of the war.</span>"

(here (http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Me109))

"Though the Me 109 had some weaknesses, the most important of them a rather short range, it stayed competitive until the end of the war, with the last variant, <span class="ev_code_yellow">the Bf 109K-4, matching or outperforming even the Mustang at most altitudes</span>"

(there (http://experts.about.com/e/m/me/Messerschmitt_Bf_109.htm))

To summarize,
If experienced/skilled,if engine in a good conditions and if not "too much" out-numbered,i'd take the "K4" in a 1945 scenario.

BTW,this is exactly what i do in the game for the End of War scenarios (who said obviously? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif )

@+

Brain32
09-08-2006, 10:52 AM
Well first of all I never heard of 50% of all TA152's being damaged due to engine failure and even this article says "...some aircraft were lost to engine fires..."
While I was actively searching for data on SabreIIb engines I realized that every design initially suffers from "childhood diseases" that are often solved in practice, like during the operational activity. Ta152's whole operational history is not more than few months, it indicates nothing... If we would apply the same criteria for all planes, only those developed before the war weren't rushed into service, all others were http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> btw i think its normal procidure to have a chap with a fire extinguisher ready. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Me too, like I said that fact means nothing to me...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Merlin with 36lbs boost please. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
SabreIIb with 36lbs on a TempestMkV http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif, F15 eat my dust http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

faustnik
09-08-2006, 11:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vike:
"Though the Me 109 had some weaknesses, the most important of them a rather short range, it stayed competitive until the end of the war, with the last variant, <span class="ev_code_yellow">the Bf 109K-4, matching or outperforming even the Mustang at most altitudes</span>"

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the Bf109K might have matched the Mustang in speed at some altitudes but, it sure couldn't maneuver with the P-51 at those speeds. P-51s combined performance with superior high speed maneuverability.

p1ngu666
09-08-2006, 11:55 AM
the 109 is kinda like the boy racers nova, pushed abit too far http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

HayateAce
09-08-2006, 12:49 PM
Is it that time of year again already? The "we lost the war" blues are in full swing. Pssst, these german aircraft lost the war for a reason. They were average.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/i/bush_darthvader.jpg

HayateAce
09-08-2006, 12:52 PM
Some additional Ta152 features:

"Critical components suffered quality-control problems. Superchargers failed, pressurized cockpits leaked, the engine cooling system gave trouble, the landing gear failed to properly retract, and oil temperature gauges gave false readings."

waffen-79
09-08-2006, 12:57 PM
Ta-152 by far

p1ngu666
09-08-2006, 12:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HayateAce:
Some additional Ta152 features:

"Critical components suffered quality-control problems. Superchargers failed, pressurized cockpits leaked, the engine cooling system gave trouble, the landing gear failed to properly retract, and oil temperature gauges gave false readings." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

indeed, few western allied aircraft could claim such features, let alone all of them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Vike
09-08-2006, 01:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pingu:
the 109 is kinda like the boy racers nova, pushed abit too far </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe,but this characteristic is absolutely necessary when escaping/willing to survive,whatever monstruous the engine was.IRL,Speed was life.I prefer to go faster than my pursuer with a less maneuverable plane with good shields than in a light,more maneuverable aircraft.

I thought about this example:
You're about to fight with an unfavourable ratio 10 vs 1,objective:
=&gt;attack if possible,hit if possible and moreover survive.

What situation would you prefer?

Alone in the 109K4 vs 10 P-51D?
Or
Alone in the P-51D vs 10 109K4?

Make your choice! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
I think i made it enough clear. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by faustnik:
Well, the Bf109K might have matched the Mustang in speed at some altitudes but, it sure couldn't maneuver with the P-51 at those speeds. P-51s combined performance with superior high speed maneuverability. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maneuver isn't the purpose,especially when making a BnZ,especially when using a MK108 and/or escaping.

Moreover,at high alt,a standard and well maintened "K" was up to 30km/h faster than a "D",even polished http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

@+

Jaws2002
09-08-2006, 01:08 PM
BF-109 should have been retired at the end of 1942 to let room for newer aircraft. To much time and resources wasted in upgrading the old dead horse. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Was an obsolete design for mid war and should have been replaced http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

tigertalon
09-08-2006, 01:13 PM
In my opinion PF is influencing your opinion a bit here Vike. Yes, K4 was fast as hell IRL, as fast as D. But it's controls were rock solid at that speeds, while P-51 was dancing around. In PF this is irrelevant because you drain your speed so quickly in P-51 at high speed maneouvering, that in a matter of few seconds fight becomes a low-speed one, where, historically correct, Bf109K should eat P-51 alive.

In my opinion at high speed maneouvering IRL planes were bleeding speed WAY less than they do in PF, compared to low speeds. Still, that's just my opinion.

Xiolablu3
09-08-2006, 01:15 PM
I really suck in the late 109's after the G6 late.

The 109G2 is the latest I feel comfortable in.

Unless the enemy is vulching the base at take off I will always take a FW190.

The late 109's are just too poor at high speed manouvres for me.

But the 109F4? Now THERES a plane. Best plane in the game in 1941.

faustnik
09-08-2006, 01:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vike:

Maneuver isn't the purpose,especially when making a BnZ,especially when using a MK108 and/or escaping.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would argue that maneuver is critical for B&Z at high speed. The P-51 had the high speed elevator authority to adjust aim at high closure speeds, the Bf109 didn't. 6x.50 cal does plenty of damage to a bounced fighter too.

lrrp22
09-08-2006, 02:04 PM
Spitfire XIV/21, P-51D/Mustang IV, and Fw190D-9/11/13 in no particular order. All three did most things well and some things exceptionally well.

LRRP

GBrutus
09-08-2006, 02:09 PM
Spitfire XIV/Mustang IV.

Kuna_
09-08-2006, 03:50 PM
FW-190D/TA-152 are currently leading with 47% of total votes. No other aircraft (series) have more than 10%. I think we may have a winner...

faustnik
09-08-2006, 03:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kuna_:
FW-190D/TA-152 are currently leading with 47% of total votes. No other aircraft (series) have more than 10%. I think we may have a winner... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure proffesor Tank would have been glad to know his design was king of the flight sim forum opinion. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Viper2005_
09-08-2006, 04:03 PM
Spitfire 21 for teh win.

- 4 cannon wing.
- ~455 mph top speed at +18 (with potential to increase boost to +25 in the medium term, and +21 in the short term)
- In service with 91 Squadron in January 1945

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-21.html

Ta-152H might do slightly better up in nose-bleed city, but only with MW50+GM1. Once the boost runs out the Spitfire has the upper hand by a fair margin.

Vike
09-08-2006, 04:07 PM
Probably TigerTalon,you may be right...But,finally i don't think so http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Have a look at this american Mustang pilot story:

-<span class="ev_code_yellow">Lawrence Thompson meets Hartmann's G-14</span>-


".... this was my first major dogfight I had in the war, in January 1945. I was flying a P-51D and we were supposed to meet with bombers over Romania. Well, the bombers never showed up! And we kept circling and wasting our fuel. When we were low on fuel the squadron leader orders us back to base, with the top group at 24,000 feet and the four bait Mustangs ordered to 15,000 feet. Now you might not really think about it, but the difference in altitude, 9,000 feet, is almost two miles, and assuming that the top flight could dive and rescue the 'bait' airplanes, it might take a full sixty seconds or more for the top group to come to the rescue. A heck of alot can happen in sixty seconds. Earlier, I requested to fly in the bait section believing that I'd have a better chance to get some scores (at that time I had no victories either) and this was my seventh mission. I have to say now that I grew up in Kansas City, Kansas, and my older brother flew a Jenny biplane in the late 1930s, so I learned the basics of flying even before joining the Army.

So we're all heading back to Italy when, all of a sudden, a dozen or so Me109's bounce us. From one moment it's a clear blue sky, next moment there are dozens' of tracers passing my cockpit. I'm hit several times and I roll over to the right, and below me is an P-51, heading for the deck, with an Me109 chasing him. I begin to chase the Me109. All this time I believe there was another Me109 chasing me! It was a racetrack, all four of us were racing for the finish line! Eventually I caught up with the first Me109 and I fired a long burst at about 1,000 yards, to no effect. Then I waited until about 600 yards, I fired two very long bursts, probably five seconds each (P-51 has ammo for about 18 seconds of continuous bursts for four machine guns, the remaining two machine guns will shoot for about 24 seconds). I noticed that part of his engine cowling flew off and he immediately broke off his attack on the lead P-51. I check my rear view mirrors and there's nothing behind me now; somehow, I have managed to lose the Me109 following me, probably because the diving speed of the P-51 is sixty mph faster than the Me109. So I pull up on the yoke and level out; suddenly a Me109 loomes about as large as a barn door right in front of me! And he fires his guns at me, and he rolls to the right, in a Lufberry circle. I peel off, following this Me109. I can see silver P-51s and black nosed camouflaged painted Me109s everywhere I look, there's Me109 or P-51 everywhere! At this time I cannot get on the transmitter and talk, everyone else in the squadron is yelling and talking, and there's nothing but yelling, screaming, and incoherent interference as everyone presses their mike buttons at the same time. I can smell something in the cockpit. Hydraulic fluid! I knew I got hit earlier.

.... I'm still following this Me109. I just got my first confirmed kill of my tour, and now I'm really hot. I believe that I am the hottest pilot in the USAAF! And now I'm thinking to myself: am I going to shoot this Me109 down too?! He rolls and we turn, and turn; somehow, I cannot catch up with him in the Lufberry circle, we just keep circling. About the third 360 degree turn he and I must have spotted two Mustangs flying below us, about 2,000 feet below, and he dives for the two P-51s.

Now I'm about 150 yards from him, and I get my gunsight on his tail, but I cannot shoot, because if I shoot wide, or my bullets pass through him, I might shoot down one or both P-51s, so I get a front seat, watching, fearful that this guy will shoot down a P-51 we're approaching at about 390 mph. There's so much interference on the R/T I cannot warn the two Mustangs, I fire one very long burst of about seven or eight seconds purposely wide, so it misses the Mustangs, and the Me109 pilot can see the tracers. None of the Mustang pilots see the tracers either! I was half hoping expecting that they'd see my tracers and turn out of the way of the diving Me109. But no such luck. I quit firing. The Me109 still dives, and as he approaches the two P-51s he holds his fire, and as the gap closes, two hundred yards, one hundred yards, fifty yards the Hun does not fire a shot. No tracers, nothing! At less than ten