PDA

View Full Version : Can you still use spiral climb successfully in me109 after 4.02?



HQ1
11-26-2005, 07:40 PM
To my suprise, I found that me109g6late can not over spiral clmb La5fn over 3500m now.In previous verion It can be done very easy.Firstly I found that in dog fight server.Finnally it also be confirmed by a trial that I made with a friend.Both aircraft have 50% fuel.I totally do not know how to fly this plane now.Maybe after this new patch I should relearn how to fly it. can someone give me any advice?

Chuck_Older
11-26-2005, 07:54 PM
two bits of advice

1) This is more appropriate to the General Discussion forum, I think http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

2) Consider whether or not the Bf 109 you were flying should be able to perform this manuever with success against the plane you were flying against...or not. Just because it was possible before, doesn't mean it's because it was correct then and incorrect now. Is it possible that the La5fn, which really was a very good plane, can counter this spiral climb? is it possible that with the new fm tweaks that you have to go about your sprial climb differently to acheive good results against the La5fn?

Stigler_9_JG52
11-26-2005, 09:51 PM
Good question-answer.

However, I think there's more to it than this. If there is an energy bleed problem across the board (and I still think there is), then it will be more difficult to use this maneuver since you have a much thinner margin for error in calculating how much energy the other guy has to keep his nose up for a shot at you.

VW-IceFire
11-26-2005, 10:08 PM
You can in a G-10 with MW50 engaged. No problems with that...not much can get you in a spiral climb with that variant.

p1ngu666
11-26-2005, 10:49 PM
la5fn has slats, which could be the problem
109 has slats aswell tho...

HQ1
11-27-2005, 03:29 AM
This tactic is very efficient in 3.04 & 4.01 But now it's suicide.I think the problem is 109 has been tweaked. It's energy bleeds much higher than before as turning. But lA5s are not touched just as it is before.

Kwiatos
11-27-2005, 04:00 AM
The point is that LA5FN is still like ufo plane. These plane dont stall like should even in hard slow speed turning ( like some other slots planes - Lag35 and 66 series) and its performance is very optimistic in game.
Unfortunatelly flying estern front scenarious with planes like Lagg3 and Lavochknis are mistake in these game.

TooCool_12f
11-27-2005, 04:53 AM
rather than blaming the la5FN, maybe the part of the problem is the 109...

yesteday I flew in a couple of dogfights and found out that the 109 can't turn with an LaGG3 (well, why not?) but also with a P-40 (more surprising) which gains angles easily on the 109F4... as a result, the spiral climb was the only way out (which worked against the P40, and also against the LaGG3 if you didn't wait too long before doing it)


now, maybe the 109s were too good in previous patchs, I don't kno... but now, even against planes which you could beat at most types of tactics you could choose from, the 109 pilots must pick up their manouvers with much more care

ImpStarDuece
11-27-2005, 05:14 AM
The P-40 was noted historically as being just slightly better than the 109 in the horizontal plane, particularly at lower speeds. The P-40 was actually one of the better turning US fighters of the war, generally pipped out by the F4F and F2A. In game it also appears to reverse the general trend in the game of trading turn time for more speed. The P-40M is a much better horizontally than the P-40B/C and slightly better than the P-40E.

So, it's not that suprising that the P-40 should be able to gain angles on the Bf-109 at slow speeds. All any 109 after the E model has to do though is use its superior accleration, climb and speed on the P-40 to gain an energy advantage.

JG52Karaya-X
11-27-2005, 05:18 AM
I dont know exactly about the LaGG3 but I think its perfectly okay that the Bf109F gets outturned by a P40(E that is). The Warhawk has a much bigger wingarea resulting in more lift than the Bf109s relatively small and thin wing (which however gives it advantages in several other areas such as dive, climb, speed, etc.)

I'm a bit skeptical about the LaGG3 (4,29,35) because it is a lot heavier, has about the same wing area and has less hp than the Bf109F.

p1ngu666
11-27-2005, 07:40 AM
theres less 109's about now, so maybe it is worse, but it was abit silly in 4.01

lagg/la series are really generously modeled

the laggs without slats cant outturn 109s btw. well unless u drop combat flap http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, then they outturn the messer

HQ1
11-27-2005, 08:28 PM
I can not see any tatics can be applied successfully as flying me109 in 1943 on east front. It's a dog now. Better change to use fw190. it can B&z in high speed very well.as for 109, forget it. Nothing it can do now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Stigler_9_JG52
11-27-2005, 10:12 PM
Well, let's see...

You can't spiral climb because planes won't lose E enough to keep their noses down; so they blast you when you're slow and nose up, like a big fat grape...

You can't do a good, sustained B&Z attack because, even if you throttle back before diving in, you lock up so bad that, unless you get a clean unseen bounce, the enemy will just loop up into you, and you can't follow quick enough to keep your advantage; plus you blow all kinds of energy advantage just getting the concrete elevator out of the dive. You're co-E or at a energy disadvantage within a couple of passes; quicker if you turn any.

So, really, the only hope you have in a 109 anymore is by turning, which it seems they do almost too well. Not very historical....

HQ1
11-27-2005, 11:56 PM
Stigler,
Do you still think 109 turn very well? I think even at low speed the turnning 109 losses energy much more quickly than other AC.I mean you can feel that like she dose not want you drive her to turn.But I donot mean that she should turn well.She just can do nothing.

x__CRASH__x
11-28-2005, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
...has a much bigger wingarea resulting in more lift than the Bf109s relatively small and thin wing ...
By that theory, a B-17 should out-turn a Bf-109.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

JG52_Cyanide
11-28-2005, 05:07 AM
If the B-17 weighed like a busload of tons less yes........

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

JG52Karaya-X
11-28-2005, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
...has a much bigger wingarea resulting in more lift than the Bf109s relatively small and thin wing ...
By that theory, a B-17 should out-turn a Bf-109.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Wingloading m8, wingloading...

mortoma
11-28-2005, 11:44 AM
The 109G6 and G6Late are probably the two worse
109s out there, aside from early Emils. But above 3500m, even an old Emil should be able to outclimb an LA-5FN, as far as I know. I may be incorrect, but the LAs were optimized for low altitudes, not high ones. All 109 were decent at high altitudes above 3500 meters. Some better than others but they all should have a better climb above 3500m than an LA. Even IL2 compare tells me ( if it's correct ) that at 110% power for both planes, the 109G6 late should climb at 19 meters per second, while the LA-5FN should only be able to muster 14 m/s!!! So if IL2 Compare is right, then there's something seriously wrong or you are not climbing at optimum rate of climb (Vy). Like I said, I may be wrong and IL2 Compare might be too. But I don't think I am.

gthgrrl4game
11-28-2005, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by mortoma:
The 109G6 and G6Late are probably the two worse
109s out there, aside from early Emils. But above 3500m, even an old Emil should be able to outclimb an LA-5FN, as far as I know. I may be incorrect, but the LAs were optimized for low altitudes, not high ones. All 109 were decent at high altitudes above 3500 meters. Some better than others but they all should have a better climb above 3500m than an LA. Even IL2 compare tells me ( if it's correct ) that at 110% power for both planes, the 109G6 late should climb at 19 meters per second, while the LA-5FN should only be able to muster 14 m/s!!! So if IL2 Compare is right, then there's something seriously wrong or you are not climbing at optimum rate of climb (Vy). Like I said, I may be wrong and IL2 Compare might be too. But I don't think I am.

Where do you get "IL2 Compare"?

BTW 109's are nice to fly, but we hate the flap alarm buzzer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif gives me a big headache

Kuna15
11-28-2005, 12:37 PM
Someone has related track?

mortoma
11-28-2005, 12:44 PM
I don't remember where to download the latest version of IL2 Compare. The latest does not have the 4 or 5 most recently released planes included. It stopped becoming available about the time they added the Spitfire Mk. VIIIs or so. Will not have the new Jug, the newest P-38Late, the latest Buffalo or the new 1942 version of the Yak7B. Maybe a few others I can't think of right now. The last version was right after the release of PF, which was version 2.5 I think. Does anyone remember where to get it at??
I think it's too big for me to email it to you.

Kocur_
11-28-2005, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Stigler_9_JG52:
Well, let's see...

You can't spiral climb because planes won't lose E enough to keep their noses down; so they blast you when you're slow and nose up, like a big fat grape...

You can't do a good, sustained B&Z attack because, even if you throttle back before diving in, you lock up so bad that, unless you get a clean unseen bounce, the enemy will just loop up into you, and you can't follow quick enough to keep your advantage; plus you blow all kinds of energy advantage just getting the concrete elevator out of the dive. You're co-E or at a energy disadvantage within a couple of passes; quicker if you turn any.

So, really, the only hope you have in a 109 anymore is by turning, which it seems they do almost too well. Not very historical....

Agreed! Seems also thats its not "fighters sim" but merely "turn'n'burners sim" now. I mean the game is very generous for tnbrners: planes with lower wingloading bleed VERY little energy - no matter how tightly they manouver. They should lose less E than higher wingloaded planes - but in similar manouvers, not ALWAYS. Now even having huge E advantage in bnz-er, like P-51 or Fw190 does not give you advantage it should: if you attack bnz-er, he will make tigh turn, evade you but still will be able to complete loop or turn and having almost E almost unchanged will be able,if not follow , than at least remain pointed at you for time enough to spray you.
OTOH heavy wingloaded planes lose very large amounts of E even at high speeds and in very gentle manouvering, i.e. keeping low AoA.

danjama
11-28-2005, 01:40 PM
I never read the whole thread, but to the title question, i never could spiral climb in a BF109 against anything successfuly in this game. Only got me shot down when i tried.

alert_1
11-28-2005, 02:04 PM
Had interesting fight with LaGG 3 serier 1 (1941) onine some nights ago...I was over enemy base about 3000m high and watched two LaGGs climbing through clouds cover, trying to get on me.I said myself "heck I really wonder what they are going try" and start spiral climb (in Me109F2= 2890kg take off with full fuel, I had approx 50-60%, 1200hp). They (LaGGs 3, series 1=3346kg take off, 1080hp) started gaining on me! I continued climbing at optimal rate (at 260km/h) up to 7000m AGL.At that time one of them (clearly very good pilot, we both were on verge of stall) was on my lever ready to turn on my six! LOL! Both of us were trying hard to get in position for attack, finally he evaluate situation as not too much favourable (but I was overheating and almost out of fuel) and spiraled down. I went after him but had to separate due to low fuel level and then his wingan enter the scene and hunt me down (you know LaGGs were faster at low level then Me109...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Nice Olegworld we have here, really nice...

jugent
11-28-2005, 02:44 PM
Maddox has changed aircrafts this way before.
The I-16 has become much better since some earlier patches.

The funny thing is that if they change an a/c its characteristics is true before the change, and after the change it is true as well.

In IL2 the Me couldn run on 100% power more than thre minutes, and that was according to how it was...

Kuna15
11-28-2005, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by danjama:
I never read the whole thread, but to the title question, i never could spiral climb in a BF109 against anything successfuly in this game. Only got me shot down when i tried.

Funny thing I play the sim for years yet I don't really know what "bf109 spiral climb" is when one say it. It isn't precise term IMO.

I mean shallow, sharp or vertical spiral climb? Even that isn't precise enough to understand the situation.

I'm not asking you Dan but for the sake of clarity one should say I go in vertical 90?spiral climb on 450kph IAS and LA-5 too; LA-5 distance 500m at the moment I go in climb. Now he catches me but in 401 he can't.

That is why track is needed to show the situation, otherwise conversation is quite futile.

mortoma
11-28-2005, 03:21 PM
I just tried outclimbing an AI controlled LA-5FN
in QMB starting at 3000 meters and was able to do it sucessfully.
I climbed at a speed of 260KPh to do it, with a slight 10 degree bank so as to spiral upwards.
I was flying the 109G6 Late model at 110% thottle most of the time with the rad set on auto, full CEM. I made a track of it. I also was able to defeat the AI controlled LA in the end by tightening up on him and taking a few diving passes while managing my energy carefully. Although I got him, it was not pretty flying I did or anything fancy. If I attempted to speed up to 280Kph, then he gained on me. Same thing happened if I tried to climb more slowly at 240Kph or lower.

From my experience, an AI controlled anything should be able to outclimb a human flying the same thing, since the AI seem to get some kind of performance "cheat" boost and do not overheat. So in all probability, if it were even an experienced human pilot, I still should have had the same results. Maybe even better?!?!

Kuna15
11-28-2005, 03:26 PM
I agree as far as energy is concerned I think that in several cases (perhaps most of the cases) ai does better job than any human.
Turning and most of other manouvres are another matter.

Xiolablu3
11-28-2005, 06:15 PM
I use spiral dive a lot more in most planes, If a plane goes into a climb when I am on his tail, I find it quite easy to hit him, even if he is spiralling.

However, when I am being B&Zed, if I go into a spiral dive and then turn UNDER the attacking plane, he has a very hard time to follow me,90% of the time aborting the attack. 10% he may try and turn violently with me ,and at his high speed sometimes blacking out, or other times shooting and scoring tiny lucky hits.

danjama
11-28-2005, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I use spiral dive a lot more in most planes, If a plane goes into a climb when I am on his tail, I find it quite easy to hit him, even if he is spiralling.

However, when I am being B&Zed, if I go into a spiral dive and then turn UNDER the attacking plane, he has a very hard time to follow me,90% of the time aborting the attack. 10% he may try and turn violently with me ,and at his high speed sometimes blacking out, or other times shooting and scoring tiny lucky hits.

Or even snapping his wings! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Seriously though, no real BnZer who is good and experienced at it will follow anyone who dives/spiral dives/turns.

Stigler_9_JG52
11-28-2005, 07:14 PM
Man, against early LaGG-3s climbing up into you, I sincerely hope you were simply doing something majorly wrong, because it shouldn't take a climb of anything nearly resembling 7km before you can engage them.

Just so everyone has a proper frame of reference, here's how to "properly" execute a climbing spiral:

1) You see an enemy plane in your rear hemisphere. Preferably he is lower than you, AND has less energy/speed than you AND your plane in general climbs better. IMPORTANT:Keep in mind that altitude is potential energy, and even though he may be closing in on you, and seemingly "faster", your altitude advantage, plus the fact that he must keep climbing to get you, means you actually have more total energy than he does. You must correctly judge your planes' relative energy states and conclude that you have a nice advantage to exploit, otherwise try something else.

2) As the enemy closes in for what he thinks will be a shot, you begin a climb, shallow at first, with not too much turn element to it. Turn INTO the enemy; if he's to your 5:00, you'll be turning to the right. It is IMPORTANT that you deceive your prey into thinking he will get a shot. If you just turn tightly right away, he may give up on the gunpass and stop following you.

3) As the enemy gets closer and closer, both steepen the climb and tighten the turn, little by little. You want to keep him low and at your 5:00 or 7:00, near gun range. This is where it gets interesting. Because you don't want the enemy to pull out of the trap, you must keep up the illusion that he may get you, so you let him get closer; sometimes uncomfortably close. If you do this to perfection what happens is, he will be just below you, but lack the energy/speed to raise his nose far enough to shoot you. You have to judge his energy and his [lack of] climb rate properly, and tighten the turn/steepen the climb when needed to keep denying him the shot. At some point, his energy will be so low that he can't get the shot, and he can't easily get away. If you do it just right, you can almost smell the fear in his cockpit at the instant you both realize that he's been had.

At this point, the enemy's nose will drop (he may be fighting stall at this point), he will noticeably "sag", and that's when you hammerhead down on him for a nice planform or canopy shot at a high angle of attack. You may need to flap up a bit to keep from stalling out yourself; be careful. And be sure to pull in those flaps quick, so you don't jam or damage them in the ensuing combat.

That's how you do it. There is no hard and fast "pitch angle" or "turn rate". You simply do enough to deny the shot while maintaining the illusion that there is a shot possibility. Depending on how great the disparity between your relative climb rates, the intial energy difference, and relative turn rates, you decide to vary the climb and turn rates. The important thing is to 1) deny the shot and 2)close the trap.

Stigler_9_JG52
11-28-2005, 07:21 PM
Caveat to the above:

This works like a charm with good flight and physics modeling. I'll leave it at that.

mortoma
11-28-2005, 07:32 PM
I think part of what's happening is that the 109 is possibly just not climbing in a turn as well as it should. If you look at my prior post, you can see that I was able to outclimb the LA-5FN over 3000mts by using a very slight turn, a very wide spiral in other words. Maybe the climb in a turn is the problem, not a straight forward climb or a very minor turn during climb. Maybe per a given, equal ( or near equal turn ) the LA is not losing as much energy as the 109. But I guarantee you the 109 I flew was able to outclimb easily it easily in a slight turn. I do have the track and remember, usually the AI can climb a given plane better than a human can. Anyone wants to see my track I'll email to them....

HQ1
11-28-2005, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Stigler_9_JG52:
Man, against early LaGG-3s climbing up into you, I sincerely hope you were simply doing something majorly wrong, because it shouldn't take a climb of anything nearly resembling 7km before you can engage them.

Just so everyone has a proper frame of reference, here's how to "properly" execute a climbing spiral:

1) You see an enemy plane in your rear hemisphere. Preferably he is lower than you, AND has less energy/speed than you AND your plane in general climbs better. IMPORTANT:Keep in mind that altitude is potential energy, and even though he may be closing in on you, and seemingly "faster", your altitude advantage, plus the fact that he must keep climbing to get you, means you actually have more total energy than he does. You must correctly judge your planes' relative energy states and conclude that you have a nice advantage to exploit, otherwise try something else.

2) As the enemy closes in for what he thinks will be a shot, you begin a climb, shallow at first, with not too much turn element to it. Turn INTO the enemy; if he's to your 5:00, you'll be turning to the right. It is IMPORTANT that you deceive your prey into thinking he will get a shot. If you just turn tightly right away, he may give up on the gunpass and stop following you.

3) As the enemy gets closer and closer, both steepen the climb and tighten the turn, little by little. You want to keep him low and at your 5:00 or 7:00, near gun range. This is where it gets interesting. Because you don't want the enemy to pull out of the trap, you must keep up the illusion that he may get you, so you let him get closer; sometimes uncomfortably close. If you do this to perfection what happens is, he will be just below you, but lack the energy/speed to raise his nose far enough to shoot you. You have to judge his energy and his [lack of] climb rate properly, and tighten the turn/steepen the climb when needed to keep denying him the shot. At some point, his energy will be so low that he can't get the shot, and he can't easily get away. If you do it just right, you can almost smell the fear in his cockpit at the instant you both realize that he's been had.

At this point, the enemy's nose will drop (he may be fighting stall at this point), he will noticeably "sag", and that's when you hammerhead down on him for a nice planform or canopy shot at a high angle of attack. You may need to flap up a bit to keep from stalling out yourself; be careful. And be sure to pull in those flaps quick, so you don't jam or damage them in the ensuing combat.

That's how you do it. There is no hard and fast "pitch angle" or "turn rate". You simply do enough to deny the shot while maintaining the illusion that there is a shot possibility. Depending on how great the disparity between your relative climb rates, the intial energy difference, and relative turn rates, you decide to vary the climb and turn rates. The important thing is to 1) deny the shot and 2)close the trap.
As for G6late VS L5fn I think this scene can only happe before 4.02.

HQ1
11-28-2005, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by mortoma:
I just tried outclimbing an AI controlled LA-5FN
in QMB starting at 3000 meters and was able to do it sucessfully.
I climbed at a speed of 260KPh to do it, with a slight 10 degree bank so as to spiral upwards.
I was flying the 109G6 Late model at 110% thottle most of the time with the rad set on auto, full CEM. I made a track of it. I also was able to defeat the AI controlled LA in the end by tightening up on him and taking a few diving passes while managing my energy carefully. Although I got him, it was not pretty flying I did or anything fancy. If I attempted to speed up to 280Kph, then he gained on me. Same thing happened if I tried to climb more slowly at 240Kph or lower.

From my experience, an AI controlled anything should be able to outclimb a human flying the same thing, since the AI seem to get some kind of performance "cheat" boost and do not overheat. So in all probability, if it were even an experienced human pilot, I still should have had the same results. Maybe even better?!?!
I think this theory is correct before 4.01 You should try it again with a human drived L5FN.

mortoma
11-29-2005, 01:33 PM
Well I don't think the AI advantage has changed, not ever. I find it hard to believe a human pilot would do any better against me. In all the offline campaigns I've flown lately, the my AI controlled buddies still outdive me, out turn me, and out climb me, flying the exact same aircraft. There are several reasons for this. One being that their planes do not overheat like ours do, they have no penalty for flying full throttle and can do it all day until they run out of gas. They also feel no G forces and don't
"virtually black-out". Also their planes do not fall apart in dives, I have seen this happen recently. I was diving in a Mig and lost surfaces but my AI buddy winged by me in his dive ( after the same enemy ) as if I was standing still!!! And he didn't lose anything, plus was able to turn so hard his vitual eyes should have popped out.

The no overheat is what helps AI most in climbs. If I climb after the same enemy, they ( my AI squadies ) eventually leave me behind since I have to reduce power to cool off while they do not. Since a human controlled LA-5FN will overheat if left at full power in a climb, even with the radiator fully opened, I find it hard to believe a human pilot can do any better. And I guarantee you the AI virtual pilot that was chasing me in my test was not having to reduce power to prevent overheat. I'm sorry but you'll have to prove it to me. I don't play online so it would be impossible right now to try this scenario against a human opponent. But I would if I could.