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View Full Version : IL-2 Series vs real life experiances - thoughts from a good friend of mine.



crazyivan1970
06-22-2005, 08:26 PM
Since the inception of the original IL-2 flight sim, Oleg and the 1:C team have continually striven to advance the series with the addition of Forgotten Battles, the Aces expansion pack, Pacific Fighters and now the revolutionary 4.01 patch. This flight model is a bold step forward in realism, and much that the average sim pilot thought he knew is now out the window.
First off, a combat loaded World War II fighter plane is a pilot killer, plain and simple. This is an undeniable fact, historically borne out and indisputable. Losses incured by training, accident, and mechanical failure exceed combat losses by at least 2 times in all airforces involved 60 years ago. The warbirds the you see flying today are radically lightened, governed, and aerodynamically modified both to tame them down and to protect someone's multi-hundred thousand dollar investment. Let's discuss the reasons behind the lengthy and demanding military pilot training, and conversely the consequences to an airforce that shortened or neglected it. It takes an educated aviator, with relatively high hours, who is also a physical specimen screened for the best vision, fastest reflexes, best overall health, and soundest overall flight judgement through training to be assigned to fly a fighter plane.
Previous sims had settable or aided Flight Models which attempted to make up for a lack of aerodymic education and proper maneuvering techniques. An automatic trim feature of all previous sims is not represented in the IL-2 series. If I remember correctly back to the 1970's proper trim application encompassed two weeks of groundschool. Many in the IL-2 community are not utilizing aircraft trim correctly and are thus disappointed in different areas of flight performance. Trim characteristics of the the New Flight model are very fluid and now change radically with throttle pitch and speed settings, which is absolutely proper if u want realism but must be researched and applied. Take-offs and landings now must be approached with a little planning and proper caution. Any one of the planes in this sim will have no mercy if an impatient pilot does not have his "lock tailwheel" button configured or lets the tail rise too soon with no aiflow over the rudder. Again this is proper.
I'm a retired light commercial pilot with fairly high hours. I owned and flew a Cessna 401 for 22 years. I also have alot of hours in my father's Stearman and Citabria aircraft, along with ultra-lights. I've even done some mild stunting in my care-free youth. So, with that in mind, let me tell you the story of the Buchon 109. I flew over to Oshkosh for the airshow feeling like a big-time sky-pilot. Longingly I watched as the warbird pilots happily flew. Well, it so happens that a friend of my father's owns a Buchon 109, which is a Spanish-built 109e series aircraft with a Merlin X up front. Sort of like if a P-40 raped an Me-108. I knew there was no chance on the blue side of hell to even sit in someone's 1.2 million dollar Mustang or Spit, but the Buchon was parked right next to the Stearmann, silently but cruelly beckoning. After much begging and cajoling, the guy finally announced that I could take the Buchon up. Hoooray!! The only thing that made me feel uneasy was that he damanded to hold the Title and manifest for my 401 before he'd let me in it. He said, "Be careful, this isn't like anything you've flown before". Well, maybe just over-cautious..... So, here I am taxiing in an "almost 109", quarter-mile smile... I line up, get clearance, pop the stick to lock the tailwheel and meekly grab a little throttle. She rolls smoothly, the tail comes up and I grab about 90 percent. The thing roars deafeningly and rattles my teeth as the tail swings starboard about 40 degrees and the entire works becomes airborne that way. The aircraft is out of control, full right rudder and it's still swingin right. Terrified, puckered up, barely can think.. I manage a skidding pylon turn to the left and enter the pattern, declaring an emergency. I can see my ma on the front porch waving my insurance policy. Somehow I line up by thinking to throttle down, not quick enuff on letting the rudder out and almost fall off on the left wing, throttle on and land it about 90mph, skidding wildly and burning up $960 worth of bendix airplane brakes. Meekly I crept away to cry. The very next day, with new brakes in place, the owner of the aircraft took it up and stunted it with the greatest of ease in staged mock dogfights the next day. I guess the moral of the story is, are you the pilot u think you are? Do u have enough stick-time to get all your aircraft's performance? Are u getting into situations that your aircraft doesn't react to well then thinking it's "porked"? After testing with the rest of the official beta team, I was duly convinced that the aircraft in this sim are properly relative within the new flight model when flown correctly, and used properly tactically.
About the 4.01 FM itself- I am a very definite fan. With a goodly amount of torque modelling, inertia feel and weight dampening, it feels very real to this sim pilot, but still a little easier than it truly ought to be. This is a trade-off of a sort to promote gamemanship, and made utterly difficult would be little fun to compete within. I feel like all planes gained alot in capabilities through the 4.01 patch and it's gonna take a little sticktime to get the skill level everyone desires. My counsel as some research, sticktime, gunnery practice,convergence theory and deflection radians and patience. Make sure u check in yer pre-flight for a "loose nut on the stick" ;o)
Jv44<~Boelcke/Kyo*78th*Sentai/VFC*F.Luke

Yog_Shoggoth
06-22-2005, 08:32 PM
Good story. I still want an I-16 though.

VW-IceFire
06-22-2005, 08:55 PM
Excellent.

blakduk
06-22-2005, 08:56 PM
Good story- i've never had the joy of watching any of the 109 series in flight, let alone flown one.
I do recall the first time i saw a Spitfire takeoff- i was stunned at the degree of rudder the pilot cranked in as he gunned it!
I also recall them removing the cowling on the Merlin- it was then that i realised that almost half the airframe was engine.
What i like about the games is the challenge that is thrown up by seemingly mundane matters such as taking off. Most other sims just let you wind up the throttle and zoom away. I believe Il2 is the only series of sims that has given any sense of three dimenions, and allowed me the luxury of yawing into a landing at low speed totally collapsing the undercarriage. It made for a cool track that reminded me of B&W footage i'd seen on old documentaries.
Regarding these old warbirds, we take air safety so much for granted that we sometimes forget that heavier than air machines are unnatural and the margin for error in the last 60 years has increased enormously. There's a very good reason they 'dont make 'em like they used to'- they were killers!

Bearcat99
06-22-2005, 09:53 PM
Im no real pilot but I was saying the same thing to some squadmates of mine tonight. I love the fact that now I have to fiddle constantly... trim for different speeds.. different altitudes.... the works... and also different planes. The same trim I set for my Jug wont work on my Pony... All I know is that with each sucessive patch this sim gets more and more like the things I read about from Sakai,Yaeger,Anderson,Kirkpatric,Archer,Knocke,For tier,Boyington,Loving,and so many many more.... I am just lovin it.... and I cant see why for the life of me any real simmer can find fault with this FM..... It isnt perfect... but as usual.. it is more perfect (read closer to reality) than anything I have ever seen. Typical 1C fare.... if you look at the bar... for flight sims that just keeps being raised higher and higher.... it amazes me that the last what..... 4-6 notches at least on that bar were all set by 1C. Gotta love it.....

vocatx
06-22-2005, 10:23 PM
Ivan, we can only hope that some of the loudest whiners will read this. I for one feel embarrassed to some extent for the lack of respect shown to you, the other moderators, Oleg, and the development team. We have been given a FREE GIFT in the form of patches and add-ons.

I have said it before: this is without a doubt the BEST flight SIM on the market bar none.

My thanks to all the moderators for the misery you have to endure, and to Oleg and the rest of the development team for all their hard work.

If there's going to be a paid add-on coming, I'll gladly pay in advance, and I will be buying BOB when it comes out.

Once again, thanks to all of you. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

P.S. Thought about making a sticky out of your post?

deathping---
06-22-2005, 11:34 PM
... I am just lovin it........

What like McDonalds?!?

Fanboy.

Enforcer572005
06-23-2005, 12:08 AM
man, that buchon pilot must've been hammered....they selling beer at oshkosh back then?

Thats the reason there are so few of them flying, they all wind up ground looping or mushing in etc. everytime theres one featured in the magazines as recently restored (again usually), it will be on the cover of the same magazine in a couple of months as being on its belly with a pranged prop. 109s were among the worse killers, and hardly anyone flies any version of them. this is what happened to Black-6 i think, which shouldnt have been kept on the airshow circuit that long anyway.

the same is true wiht the 2 109Es that have just been restored...i hope the owners get really qualified guys to fly those things.

At the Confederate Air Force show in texas in 89, thier last buchon (of four purchased after the filming of battle of britian) was parked in the back under a PBY. they sold it shortly afterwards.in the movie, they were flown mostly by high time spanish air force pilots who had time in them...lots of time.

My ride in a B-25 was enough to show me that these things were all death traps, which increases my admiration for those guys that was already high. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

F19_Ob
06-23-2005, 02:21 AM
Good post.

Indeed the FM feels more real now and also looks so from the outsideview in many situations. The swaying and bouncing when aiming and correcting looks very much the same as in real guncams when one dampens the rudder with filtering in the ingame settings.

A little tuning of stalls and spins on some planes and it will be as good as anyone resonably could hope for.

SeaFireLIV
06-23-2005, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
......With a goodly amount of torque modelling, inertia feel and weight dampening, it feels very real to this sim pilot, but still a little easier than it truly ought to be. This is a trade-off of a sort to promote gamemanship, and made utterly difficult would be little fun to compete within. I feel like all planes gained alot in capabilities through the 4.01 patch and it's gonna take a little sticktime to get the skill level everyone desires. My counsel as some research, sticktime, gunnery practice,convergence theory and deflection radians and patience. Make sure u check in yer pre-flight for a "loose nut on the stick" ;o)


Is Oleg speaking through you? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I had no idea you had had so much flight time/experience. I`ve had none, but I also felt that while realistic, the FMs fell slightly short of what I`d read and heard of in R\L. Still it`s an excellent FM and I don`t believe you need to be a pilot in R\L to appreciate it. Most player pilots just need to approach the new 4.01 fms with an open mind, rather than that `brainwashed- what I`m used to, what I think` attitude.

Great post, Ivan, but a few spaces between those lines would make it a little easier to read. But even with that, those who don`t want to know the reality (and live with the fantasy) will probably still whine rather than just set the FM difficulty to easy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Flakenstien
06-23-2005, 02:53 AM
Great stuff Ivan!

But you do know that the majority of people here are the real experts! You cant deny the knowledge of those that never flew a real airplane http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

anarchy52
06-23-2005, 02:59 AM
Excellent post Ivan.

For all those who whine that 4.01 is too hard because they can't become Hartmann, Johnson or Closterman in a day - so obviously FM is wrong (virtual ace pilot is never wrong) - I say give them *AUTO-CENSORED* version (I know, not supposed to have one), although not perfect it gives far better representation of how WWII fighters REALLY behaved compared to 4.01.

I hope for BoB full real will be as real as it can be with no compromises (screw the whiners), and for those who think it's too hard there is (already in THIS sim) the option to turn off torque, stalls etc.

P.S. I enjoy *AUTO-CENSORED* version offline, for the sheer joy of flying, thrill of takeoff and landing.

anarchy52
06-23-2005, 03:01 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
But even with that, those who don`t want to know the reality (and live with the fantasy) will probably still whine rather than just set the FM difficulty to easy.

Bullseye!

Zentaurus
06-23-2005, 03:16 AM
Very nice story indeed ! I agree that the 4.01 FM is a step in the right direction. But still i am disappointed that they didnt have the guts to make it as difficult as it seems to be in real life or as difficult as in the betas...if you compare the intense and heavy reactions of teh "Buchon" to what we have i think it doesnt really compare at all.

I actually dont think that the FM now is difficult at all or so much different from 3.04m. It does take about an hour or so to get used to it. Even the most noobish pilots in our squad which still had difficulties taking off and landing in 3.04 a few weeks ago adapted to the new FM in basically no time. So i disagree with the notion that 4.01m is such a big step. Actually it feels to me like "the mountain was breeding...a mouse..". A cute little mouse though.

Yours,
II/JG54_Zent

ednavar
06-23-2005, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by Zentaurus:
Very nice story indeed ! I agree that the 4.01 FM is a step in the right direction. But still i am disappointed that they didnt have the guts to make it as difficult as it seems to be in real life or as difficult as in the betas...if you compare the intense and heavy reactions of teh "Buchon" to what we have i think it doesnt really compare at all.

I actually dont think that the FM now is difficult at all or so much different from 3.04m. It does take about an hour or so to get used to it. Even the most noobish pilots in our squad which still had difficulties taking off and landing in 3.04 a few weeks ago adapted to the new FM in basically no time. So i disagree with the notion that 4.01m is such a big step. Actually it feels to me like "the mountain was breeding...a mouse..". A cute little mouse though.

Yours,
II/JG54_Zent

Allow me to disagree. You always have to keep in mind the great disadvantage the virual pilot has always to struggle with: not being there.

The risk of overdoing it is there: making all the different forces exactly equal to RL can make a SIM vastly harder than real thing: it would be like placing a half blind and apathic pilot in a warbird, without the chanche to feel the torquee, the speed, inertia etc.

S!

E.

TX-EcoDragon
06-23-2005, 04:55 AM
Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
man, that buchon pilot must've been hammered....they selling beer at oshkosh back then?


Hehe. . . that's what I thought first time I heard the man of many names (Boelcke,Sentai,F.Luke and probably more!)mention it to me!

:-D

WWSensei
06-23-2005, 05:25 AM
Originally posted by Yog_Shoggoth:
Good story. I still want an I-16 though.

Nah, you don't. :-) There is a flyable one near my home (about 40 miles away) and the owner has only flown it about 4 times. His 3 main complaints are 10 The tremendous torgue on initial rollout, 2) the amount of opposite rudder you have to apply almost the instant the tail comes up otherwise you groundloop very easy, 3) The nearly 10 hours of maintenance required for every one hour of flight.

He also owns an I-153,I-15bis, a Po2, P-40, Avenger, AD-4 SkyRaider, Spit IX, Hurricane, P-51, PBY, T-34, T-28D, Stearman, SNJ-4, Chipmunk, Tiger Moth, Storch, Messerchimdt 108, 208 and Corsair. They even have a V1 rocket!

He flies the P-40 all the time and uses it for his personal travel. He says it is by far the most pleasent and easiest handling to fly.

He is currently restoring a 109E7, MiG-3, P-39, B-25J, YaK-3, Yak-18 and Ki-61.

http://www.fighterfactory.net/about-fighter-factory.php

AerialTarget
06-23-2005, 06:24 AM
IT'S NOT FAIR!!

crazyivan1970
06-23-2005, 06:48 AM
Originally posted by TX-EcoDragon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
man, that buchon pilot must've been hammered....they selling beer at oshkosh back then?


Hehe. . . that's what I thought first time I heard the man of many names (Boelcke,Sentai,F.Luke and probably more!)mention it to me!

:-D </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eco, it would be nice if you would add something. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

F19_Ob
06-23-2005, 06:50 AM
Me thinks me wants my 109 in the sim to have those described difficulties of the Buchon That Crazy Ivans friend described.
I wouldn't care if I crashed a 100 times before I got her up. Me wants anyway.

It could be an extra difficulty setting called "Cry mode" after Boelcke's frase "Meekly I crept away to cry".

I admit I'm not always the brightest flame But don't deny that this idea takes off like a rocket!

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Woof603
06-23-2005, 07:47 AM
Each FM patch brings this wonderful sim closer to R/L. When I fly the 4.01, regardless of the aircraft, the memories flood back. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

KarayaEine
06-23-2005, 07:55 AM
Interesting that if he had stick time in a Stearman he couldn't handle the Buchon 109. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Johann

crazyivan1970
06-23-2005, 08:53 AM
Maybe because they are totally different planes Eine?

TacticalYak3
06-23-2005, 09:00 AM
Ivan one word "paragraphs" where are they? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Very interesting information indeed. I like the new FM too. For me, I enjoy the extra work with regards to take-off and landing (though landing doesn't seem too different).

However, the new FM and constant tweaking has me really thinking about a better stick and getting into some peddles. This is how some here will really address the laziness towards torque.

Perhaps others will just continue to whine. Hopefully folks won't get discouraged and stop flying, but I do think that's a real possibility (and probably has already happened).

Regards,
TactS!

JG7_Rall
06-23-2005, 09:00 AM
Holy cr4p sensei!!!! You are one lucky guy to be living so close to all of those planes, and it seems that you know the owner as well!! Does he let you view/sit in/fondle/carress the airplanes at all? I wish we had some warbirds around here...there is a P51 that I know of, but the owner never takes it out.

Airmail109
06-23-2005, 09:31 AM
Ivan all i can say is...you lucky lucky bastard....you lucky jammy bastard. Its my life long dream to become professional pilot and fly a warbird . The road to my goal is going to be difficult though. I can only get my commercial in the USA with my eyesight! Ive got my own plans on how to get into the warbird world.

anarchy52
06-23-2005, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by F19_Ob:
Me thinks me wants my 109 in the sim to have those described difficulties of the Buchon That Crazy Ivans friend described.
I wouldn't care if I crashed a 100 times before I got her up. Me wants anyway.

And to think...we almost had exactly that...but the whines from online 'aces' would be unbearable.

crazyivan1970
06-23-2005, 09:39 AM
Aimail... not me the lucky one... Boelcke is. I am in the same boat with you... dreaming http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Airmail109
06-23-2005, 09:40 AM
ahhh now i see LOL. Keep on dreaming mate....those who dont succeed are those who lose sight of their dreams.

WWSensei
06-23-2005, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by JG7_Rall:
Holy cr4p sensei!!!! You are one lucky guy to be living so close to all of those planes, and it seems that you know the owner as well!! Does he let you view/sit in/fondle/carress the airplanes at all? I wish we had some warbirds around here...there is a P51 that I know of, but the owner never takes it out.

56K warning... Here some pics of a road trip I took a couple of months ago to his hangar. You tell me how close he let me get. :-)

http://www.wingwalkers.org/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=2762&h...ight=fighter+factory (http://www.wingwalkers.org/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=2762&highlight=fighter+factory)

Airmail109
06-23-2005, 11:20 AM
Closest ive got was sitting in the cockpit of a Spitfire MK V! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif SO far so good.....

Shame i never did take a photo http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

PlaneEater
06-23-2005, 12:26 PM
40 degree swing at 90% throttle, huh?

Wow, sounds like a lot more than what the 109s in 4.01 do.

4.01 is pretty darn good, but I honestly think the torque in the mid betas was better. If you didn't set your trim beforehand and stay sharp on the rudder, it'd roll you right over.
Sounds like it was very close to dead-on (pardon the pun) at that point.

I'm guessing Oleg ran calculations to figure out the actual numerical torque forces generated by the various engines at different power levels and speeds, but in 4.01 they still feel very mild. They just don't give you the impression that they'll wrench your plane out of the air if you screw up, like with that Buchon.

JV44Boelcke
06-23-2005, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by KarayaEine:
Interesting that if he had stick time in a Stearman he couldn't handle the Buchon 109. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Johann
That Stearmann was like riding a tricycle compared to that buchon...easy-peasy
Boelcke

crazyivan1970
06-23-2005, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by JV44Boelcke:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KarayaEine:
Interesting that if he had stick time in a Stearman he couldn't handle the Buchon 109. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Johann
That Stearmann was like riding a tricycle compared to that buchon...easy-peasy
Boelcke </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Welcome aboard B and enjoy your stay. Don`t read too much tho... might ruin your day http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JG54_Arnie
06-23-2005, 02:43 PM
hehe http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Cool stuff. Tnx Ivan! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

VBF-83_Hawk
06-23-2005, 03:39 PM
I have no problems with the F4U in this sim. I dont even use the tailwheel lock. Does this mean I am ready for a real one?

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2005, 05:33 PM
I have a video of a guy checkriding a p51 and theres a quote that he says everytime i see whiners going off........ imagine a 12 foot propeller acting as a gyroscope in front of you, any power or pitch change that you do, you need to trim out the airplane to fly it right, also the three rules to flying a p51 is...

Rule 1, dont go too slow
Rule 2 dont go too slow
rule 3 dont go too slow


bottom line is noone can say anything about the fm's of the flight sim unless they flew the actual airplane

HerrGraf
06-23-2005, 09:06 PM
Good topic Ivan.
Great pictures Sensei. You should "loan" your friend 4.01 to test fly, then post his responses to the new FM on a thread. Looks like he has more experience on different birds than most folks will.



Five thousand years of technological advancement, but not one iota of advancement in human nature.

horseback
06-23-2005, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by VMF-214_Prop:
I have a video of a guy checkriding a p51 and theres a quote that he says everytime i see whiners going off........ imagine a 12 foot propeller acting as a gyroscope in front of you, any power or pitch change that you do, you need to trim out the airplane to fly it right, also the three rules to flying a p51 is...

Rule 1, dont go too slow
Rule 2 dont go too slow
rule 3 dont go too slow


bottom line is noone can say anything about the fm's of the flight sim unless they flew the actual airplane

The gyroscope reference reminds me of that experiment/demo we did in grade school; the teacher would put you in an office chair that pivoted but was not wheeled, and have you hold on to a bicycle wheel with handles attached at the hub. Then he'd spin that bicycle wheel, and that chair would spin you around like a top, direction depending on which way you tilted that wheel (which was why they took the wheels off the chair).

What was the name of that kid who puked? Billy something...

cheers

horseback

drose01
06-23-2005, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by Aimail101:
Ivan all i can say is...you lucky lucky bastard....you lucky jammy bastard. Its my life long dream to become professional pilot and fly a warbird . The road to my goal is going to be difficult though. I can only get my commercial in the USA with my eyesight! Ive got my own plans on how to get into the warbird world.

Aimal- get LASIK treatment and your eyes will be better then perfect. Not cheap, but either is the rest of your dream, I imagine.

And great story, Ivan, it really drives home the differences between flying a computer and flying a high powered disaster waiting to happen- no refly button, and those crashes are probably painful in the real thing. The closer to real life the sim is the better as far as I am concerned.

WWSensei
06-24-2005, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by HerrGraf:
Good topic Ivan.
Great pictures Sensei. You should "loan" your friend 4.01 to test fly, then post his responses to the new FM on a thread. Looks like he has more experience on different birds than most folks will.

Five thousand years of technological advancement, but not one iota of advancement in human nature.

Tried. He has a low opinion of computers and even less of an opinion of flight sims. :-)

CyC_AnD
06-24-2005, 07:36 AM
What this topic proves? It is same opposite trolling of fanboys to me, take some story that match into sim, and you have perfect excuse for flaws being in sim...

crazyivan1970
06-24-2005, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by CyC_AnD:
What this topic proves? It is same opposite trolling of fanboys to me, take some story that match into sim, and you have perfect excuse for flaws being in sim...

You are off to rough start here fellow. You must me WW2 ace with 10000 hours of combat time. I see...

faustnik
06-24-2005, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by CyC_AnD:
What this topic proves? It is same opposite trolling of fanboys to me, take some story that match into sim, and you have perfect excuse for flaws being in sim...

This topic demonstrates how a lot of actual pilotsare impressed with the new FM of 4.01. The main complainers about the new FM are purely PC gamers.

Capt._Tenneal
06-24-2005, 11:44 AM
take some story that match into sim, and you have perfect excuse for flaws being in sim...

And just because some WW2 pilot or other has critical recalls than what is in IL-2 game, then we must also all believe him and say the game is false ?