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View Full Version : The "money throwing"-ability and the AI..



Acharel
09-11-2009, 03:06 PM
Don't you all think it seemed just a "little" akward they way that worked in the Florence demo shown a while ago? I mean, judging from clothes and whatnot, the people who were mindlessly stooping towards the ground for the coins Ezio threw looked like upper class citizens, which was weird. You'd think that well-clothed, well-fed people like that would atleast take a moment to reflect on why this man just flinged coins all over the ground rather than swooping down on the money like some starved beggar.

Furthermore, their reaction to the coins is just as rabid even when they're thrown into action after a man has just been mown down by a poisoned bodyguard who's still swinging his axe wildly around (saw this in some blurry off-screen footage from the demo held at the PAX). I mean, what the heck? Nothing made sense with that scenario. All in all, Ezio's blatant coin throwing looks like it would attract more attention to himself than to avert attention -if the crowds would've seemed like they had atleast half a brain, that is.

In my opinion, if you're not going to have the AI behave somewhat believably in response to these sorts of gameplay mechanics, it's better to just leave them out. Thoughts?

SBRedFlag
09-11-2009, 03:08 PM
I don't know if you've been welcomed yet, but just in case, welcome to the forums http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm gonna post now so I don't get ninja'd

Edit: Ok, you may or may not have noticed, but he threw the coins after his target had been killed, so I imagine that the onlookers were a little more focused on the dead guy than the guy throwing coins at the ground. However, coins are shiny and valuable, so the peasants would want some.

I admit, some kinks need to be ironed out ("I died because my guard grazed my knee with a halberd") and the peasant reaction was a bit too immediate, but hey, it's not out yet, they can still fix it.

thekyle0
09-11-2009, 03:11 PM
Eh, I can accept the flaw as long as the tool still entertains me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

This seems a little bit off topic...

But does anyone think that if you're in a street where there aren't thick crowds but a few individuals walking by you could throw the coins down to draw the people into one crowd and give yourself a temporary hiding spot? I guess this would depend on how long the people will keep looking for coins. But then you could always just keeping throwing some down.

moqqy
09-11-2009, 03:13 PM
It, along with some other new features, seemed a bit forced, yes.

I don't think the coin throwing really adds anything to the game. It'll just become lame after you've done it a couple of times.

Especially since, as you said, the people don't seem to care about their environment at all (Woah, that guy with a halberd just killed a dude! And now he's swinging his halberd around randomly! How ter- wait! Someone threw coins near the halberd-dude! Go get 'em!)

SBRedFlag
09-11-2009, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by thekyle0:
Eh, I can accept the flaw as long as the tool still entertains me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

This seems a little bit off topic...

But does anyone think that if you're in a street where there aren't thick crowds but a few individuals walking by you could throw the coins down to draw the people into one crowd and give yourself a temporary hiding spot? I guess this would depend on how long the people will keep looking for coins. But then you could always just keeping throwing some down.

I guess that would work, but most of them would be on their knees, and you would be standing up, so it wouldn't really make sense.

LaurenIsSoMosh
09-11-2009, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by sbredflag:
I guess that would work, but most of them would be on their knees, and you would be standing up, so it wouldn't really make sense. Isn't the landing animation for Ezio to drop to one knee now though? Minus the fact that he just fell out of the sky and probably landed on top of someone, he'd blend right in.

Besides, if random citizens aren't going to pay attention to a mad man swinging a weapon around in front of them, I don't think guards are going to catch onto your presence simply because you're standing while everyone else is grabbing for money.

The AI routine will probably go like, "Crowd... more than ten citizens in close proximity? Check. Cannot see assassins."

SBRedFlag
09-11-2009, 03:40 PM
I didn't say it wouldn't work, only that it wouldn't make sense.

Edengoth
09-11-2009, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by sbredflag:
but most of them would be on their knees, and you would be standing up, so it wouldn't really make sense.
*stifles courtesan joke* http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

thekyle0
09-11-2009, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by sbredflag:
I guess that would work, but most of them would be on their knees, and you would be standing up, so it wouldn't really make sense.
Since we've only seen Ezio blend with a crowd that is just standing around then we can't assume that is all he will do while blending.

Lol, at Edengoth.

Acharel
09-11-2009, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by sbredflag:
I don't know if you've been welcomed yet, but just in case, welcome to the forums http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Thanks.. As you can see, I've been registered here for quite long but I've only felt like contributing on rare occasions.


Originally posted by sbredflag:
Ok, you may or may not have noticed, but he threw the coins after his target had been killed, so I imagine that the onlookers were a little more focused on the dead guy than the guy throwing coins at the ground. Not totally sure if you've seen the version of the demo I was referring to, but onlookers threw themselves at the coins in such a manner that they got themselves killed (I think) by the mad knight. Didn't seem like the dead guy or the madman that killed him was on their minds at all. You'd think that the fear of being slaughtered by a stray axe-swing would've taken precedence over the chance to grab some spare change from the ground.. Just looked weird.

I mean, you can just opt not to use stuff like the coins when you don't have to if it feels immersion-breaking, but it would be cool if using them played out a little more realistically. Ideally, you shouldn't be able to use them completely indiscriminately to distract people.. Sometimes, using them should be a bad move stealth-wise, such as throwing them in an akward setting like the one in the demo.

We'll see how it feels when the game is out, I guess.

Edit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQMOyp1Mr7E

Saw this video of the demo/interview with Patrice, and I had to chuckle when he cited the money pouch as a means of finally giving the player a tool to shut those annoying beggars up.. I thought the hidden blade was a pretty damn effective tool to shut them up with in the first game, myself!

thekyle0
09-11-2009, 04:01 PM
You're a little late for that joke. I lay claim to having said it first. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Cornik22
09-11-2009, 04:14 PM
Guys guys guys. The problem here is that they have shown us the "coin throwing" system in a stupid way (but fun as hell!). Seriously, it can be really useful. Just imagine you are being chased by a group of guards. They are getting closer and you are unable to find a safe spot. As you run throw some coins. The civs trying to get the money will collide with them, giving you enough time to dissapear.

Realjambo
09-11-2009, 04:22 PM
Obviously...

thekyle0
09-11-2009, 04:23 PM
hhmm, I wonder how disoriented the people and guards will become if you through the coins and then a smoke bomb. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

bladencrowd
09-11-2009, 04:43 PM
How about you first poison a guard, run a short distance away, get some guards to chase you, run back to the poisoned guard, throw down coins to attract the puzzled crowd, then chuck a smoke bomb http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

MartaVasques
09-11-2009, 04:52 PM
Have you forgotten the rule that tells you not to harm the innocent? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">@bladencrowd: that’s sadistic! :)</pre>

thekyle0
09-11-2009, 04:57 PM
We didn't harm them, the guard did. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

MartaVasques
09-11-2009, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by thekyle0:
We didn't harm them, the guard did. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

That’s the Assassin equivalent excuse for “the dog ate my homework”. One of these days you’ll be expelled from the brotherhood… http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

thekyle0
09-11-2009, 05:03 PM
Alright, alright. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Desmond made me do it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

MartaVasques
09-11-2009, 05:13 PM
These young assassins... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Actually, this would make a pretty good Kaxen comic. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Losk_
09-11-2009, 05:27 PM
It could also be that they have disabled the crowd AI in that area for the demo.

Even in AC1 the crowd reacts to death even if they do not see who killed the person (Eg throw an archer off the roof and he lands dead in the street, everyone starts screaming and runs off).

I can't imagine they would take this out of the game, BUT, I could see them dumbing down the crowd for a demo, so that the audience can clearly see what was going on. If every NPC in the vicinity was to panic and run around, it would look like chaos. They might not have as good of a demo on the new poison feature.


Also you could still do what Patrice did in the demo if you had good timing. Poison the guard, throw the money at the right time, everyone rushes in and is collecting right when the guard starts attacking, and you have the same effect, but more realistic.

sacredmoon101
09-11-2009, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by bladencrowd:
How about you first poison a guard, run a short distance away, get some guards to chase you, run back to the poisoned guard, throw down coins to attract the puzzled crowd, then chuck a smoke bomb http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Oh, that is evil! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

DogenzakaSMASH
09-11-2009, 06:48 PM
I think enemy AI has gotten smarter.
But crowd AI has gotten stupider.

Seriously you can bump into people like that and steal money, and they don't even shrug?

You throw coins in front of a flailing guard with a weapon, and you think people are stupid enough to get the money without being careful?

Or how about when you walk up and ***** the guard and everyone's just staring at you like it's nothing.

>_>

The crowd has become meaningless, from what I've seen.

Hopefully it was just not the focus of the demo.

Edengoth
09-11-2009, 07:05 PM
Yes, because the crowd in AC1 was sooooo much smarter by comparison. All your standard crowd character in AC1 could do was walk around or run screaming if they witness a murder.

This is a whole new set of functions that may not have been ironed out yet.

thekyle0
09-11-2009, 07:10 PM
Hey now that's not all they could do. Beggars have thrown rocks at me. And people complain when you punch old ladies. They also commented when they found a dead body. I was intrigued by how the crowd would run away if they saw someone die but would only react with curiousity when they only found a dead body.

SBRedFlag
09-11-2009, 07:17 PM
They probably dumbed down AI for the purposes of the demo. It wouldn't have been as fun if Patrice got detected every time... or if no one got killed by the crazy guard.

Edengoth
09-11-2009, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by thekyle0:
Hey now that's not all they could do. Beggars have thrown rocks at me. And people complain when you punch old ladies. They also commented when they found a dead body. I was intrigued by how the crowd would run away if they saw someone die but would only react with curiousity when they only found a dead body.

Yeah there were special crowd AIs in AC1 but I think dog was talking about the common crowd AI and how he thinks it's devolved.

Jaridz
09-11-2009, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by DogenzakaSMASH:
Seriously you can bump into people like that and steal money, and they don't even shrug?


uv never seen a good pickpocket in action b4 then have u?

Edengoth
09-11-2009, 10:44 PM
If you've seen him in action, then he's not a very good pickpocket. lol

FifthGeneration
09-11-2009, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by bladencrowd:
How about you first poison a guard, run a short distance away, get some guards to chase you, run back to the poisoned guard, throw down coins to attract the puzzled crowd, then chuck a smoke bomb http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

i think if i did that my xbox would explode... seriously

EmperorxZurg
09-11-2009, 11:49 PM
stop burning people so much Edengoth! Besides, how do u know it wasn't HIM that was the pickpocket?http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif*quickly looks behind and pats wallet, then turns away and doesn't care that someone is walking up to me with his hand reaching out slowly towards my wallet*

Jaridz
09-11-2009, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by d1sturbedme_468:
stop burning people so much Edengoth! Besides, how do u know it wasn't HIM that was the pickpocket?http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif*quickly looks behind and pats wallet, then turns away and doesn't care that someone is walking up to me with his hand reaching out slowly towards my wallet*

too late. ur wallet was gone b4 u checked it

LaurenIsSoMosh
09-12-2009, 02:17 AM
A dumbed-down or work-in-progress AI sounds like it could very probably be the case.

AC II is being built on top of existing code rather than from scratch, meaning that the the developers would have to go back and deliberately erase the crowd's reaction to death in order for them to stand around like so.

I expect that the crowd in the final version will react appropriately to typical scenarios.

Drakonous505
09-13-2009, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by bladencrowd:
How about you first poison a guard, run a short distance away, get some guards to chase you, run back to the poisoned guard, throw down coins to attract the puzzled crowd, then chuck a smoke bomb http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

No no no, You poison the guard, throw money, then kill one of the other guards, get chased and run towards the crowed who is just finishing picking up the money, throw more money, drop a smoke bomb, begin cilimbing a building and throw another smoke bomb, throw more money (which if you're high enough might kill them >8P) then whip out your hidden gun and have some target practice on the helpless coughing victims http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Cpt_Yanni
09-13-2009, 09:46 AM
I had the opportunity to watch the E3 demo of Assassin's Creed 2 (in Venice) and the ubisoft guy told me that they always make "ultimate" settings for demo's so they can't fail... He gave me the example that they had infinite life, smoke bombs, couldn't crash with the flying machine and the crowd didn't have the proper AI to warn guards or react if they saw someone who got killed... So I think they also did something like that with the new demo so the presentation couldn't fail...

EmperorxZurg
09-13-2009, 09:59 AM
but Remember Patrice almost got killed at PAX

thekyle0
09-13-2009, 10:02 AM
They probably turned off the unlimited health in that case. Or maybe made it so that while the synchornization went down and he reached the critical state it wouldn't drop an farther.

But now that you mention this, I didn't see anything other than the street doctors that had to do with the re-done health system. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Cpt_Yanni
09-13-2009, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by d1sturbedme_468:
but Remember Patrice almost got killed at PAX

I don't say that this "rules" also count for the GC and PAX demo... But I just mention what I know about the E3 demo and what the ubisoft worker told me. But I'm pretty sure that the AI wasn't finished at the PAX demo or that it wasn't the FULL one...

EmperorxZurg
09-13-2009, 10:12 AM
ya, I was just thinking they used the same thing for PAX, maybe they had him go down on purpose to show the new critical state perhaps?

Cornik22
09-13-2009, 10:15 AM
But I'm pretty sure that the AI wasn't finished at the PAX demo or that it wasn't the FULL one...
Of course it wasn’t! A crazy guard have just killed like 5 or 6 people and the other civilians around keep watching the scene with a smile in their faces. Hilarious, but unbelievable.

Cpt_Yanni
09-13-2009, 10:17 AM
It's possible (and plausible) ... hmm 66 days left until it... :-/ (I really want it now ! lol...)

SBRedFlag
09-13-2009, 11:45 AM
Who on this forum DOESN'T want it?

Cpt_Yanni
09-13-2009, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by sbredflag:
Who on this forum DOESN'T want it?
Assassin's Creed haters ...

Ezio555666
09-13-2009, 12:36 PM
AC2 is coming out 17th november US
20th november UK

FROGGEman2
09-14-2009, 03:34 AM
Originally posted by MartaVasques:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thekyle0:
We didn't harm them, the guard did. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

That’s the Assassin equivalent excuse for “the dog ate my homework”. One of these days you’ll be expelled from the brotherhood… http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad the brotherhood decided to go stuff itself.
I'm looking forward to killing innocent civilians!

OT: I don't care whether it is realistic or not, it makes no difference. At all.

PlagueDoctor357
09-17-2009, 02:34 AM
Originally posted by Jaridz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DogenzakaSMASH:
Seriously you can bump into people like that and steal money, and they don't even shrug?


uv never seen a good pickpocket in action b4 then have u? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No doubt! That's how real pick pocketeers work! The way Altair stole things, was just stupid. Heatscore to the max!