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View Full Version : POll: The UBI Zoo...but are we ... I mean really?



Bearcat99
10-03-2007, 10:20 PM
I hear so often on other forums guys refer to this forum as the UBI Zoo. It got me to thinking.... I guess at one time we were kind of like that... but frankly I think that the title is undeserved.

I think this forum is one of the most helpful, knowledgeable and friendly places in cyberspace. We always welcome newcomers .. for the most part anyway.. even ones that we may fell are trolling... but we help them just to be on the safe side.... to err on the better side of valor. I think that many of the people who refer to us as the UBI Zoo either got banned from here one time too many and either voluntarily or involuntarily no longer come here ... or they just got bored... and after several attempts to bring back the "glory days" of the wild frontier.. when we actually were more like a Zoo..
I frequent several other forums... and on each and every one of them I read the references to this place as the "UBI Zoo"... and I kind of resent it.... I would love to be able to meet 80% of the people I have met in here in person before I shuffle off this rock... and share a beer and hear how you laugh. I think qwe are hardly a Zoo..... and perhaps , just perhaps, folks could take a fresh look at this forum and come up with a more descriptive handle...

I know we have our share of jerks. Can't help that.. they are everywhere.. even on some of these other boards. Even some of the folks who aren't jerks per se... have flashes of jerkitis.. I have put my foot down my throat on more than one occasion over the past 5 years on these boards.. but I think we have a good bunch here.. and i think the name is undeserved and no longer appropriate...


But hey... thats me....

Bearcat99
10-03-2007, 10:20 PM
I hear so often on other forums guys refer to this forum as the UBI Zoo. It got me to thinking.... I guess at one time we were kind of like that... but frankly I think that the title is undeserved.

I think this forum is one of the most helpful, knowledgeable and friendly places in cyberspace. We always welcome newcomers .. for the most part anyway.. even ones that we may fell are trolling... but we help them just to be on the safe side.... to err on the better side of valor. I think that many of the people who refer to us as the UBI Zoo either got banned from here one time too many and either voluntarily or involuntarily no longer come here ... or they just got bored... and after several attempts to bring back the "glory days" of the wild frontier.. when we actually were more like a Zoo..
I frequent several other forums... and on each and every one of them I read the references to this place as the "UBI Zoo"... and I kind of resent it.... I would love to be able to meet 80% of the people I have met in here in person before I shuffle off this rock... and share a beer and hear how you laugh. I think qwe are hardly a Zoo..... and perhaps , just perhaps, folks could take a fresh look at this forum and come up with a more descriptive handle...

I know we have our share of jerks. Can't help that.. they are everywhere.. even on some of these other boards. Even some of the folks who aren't jerks per se... have flashes of jerkitis.. I have put my foot down my throat on more than one occasion over the past 5 years on these boards.. but I think we have a good bunch here.. and i think the name is undeserved and no longer appropriate...


But hey... thats me....

MrMojok
10-03-2007, 10:38 PM
This place is pretty tame, really.

We've all gone overboard at times but there is a minimum of that on these boards. At least in my opinion.

I am always amazed and proud at the attitudes of the regulars when someone posts a "Hi, I am new-- please help me with this game!" thread.

People are very helpful in general. I do my bit to help, too-- because people did it for me when I first came here.

Feathered_IV
10-03-2007, 10:41 PM
Not a Zoo. Bless you all http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Freelancer-1
10-03-2007, 10:48 PM
Zoo?

Maybe.

Really I just wanted to mention that your sig looks much better without the cloud (or whatever it was supposed to behttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif), Bear.

Is it a .png or did you just make a gray background?

knightflyte
10-03-2007, 11:04 PM
Was it the comment on Sim HQ about the mice and UBI turning out the lights and closing shop that brought this, Bearcat?

stalkervision
10-04-2007, 12:23 AM
far from a zoo....shame on that unfair anology! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

How dare we insult zoo's and zoo animals so much! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I see it as this..

http://depthome.brooklyn.cuny.edu/classics/gladiatr/

Friendly_flyer
10-04-2007, 12:25 AM
A rather friendly zoo perhaps?

VMF-214_HaVoK
10-04-2007, 12:26 AM
Im going to be optimistic and go with #2. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

S!

leitmotiv
10-04-2007, 01:25 AM
Bearcat =

http://www.michaelbarrier.com/Commentary/Live_Action_Walt/Pollyanna.jpg

x6BL_Brando
10-04-2007, 01:26 AM
This noble debate is all very well - but when is feeding-time? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

B

dieg777
10-04-2007, 01:34 AM
Bearcat99, since you asked , and as I respect the work that you do in trying to mod this place, then Id say that it has got worse. To the point that I had effectively stopped posting in GD. The attitude of some that post there display a level of ignorance and bad manners that I find unacceptable. The fact that it happens in other places should not be an excuse to allow it here.

It has reached the level that I believe ,had you had posted this under another name, and not as a mod, then this thread would have lasted a page before being locked.

JG52Uther
10-04-2007, 01:49 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif Couldn't have said it better myself.
So what has brought this on BC,the new 1C forum opening up?
Also,looking at the new forum,they have an off topic thread, which is definitely something we need here.

WTE_Googly
10-04-2007, 02:14 AM
I know I haven't a high postcount but have been watching these forums for years.

There are some forums which do only the things you listed bearcat, and are thoroughly boring. This forum on the other hand has a fair amount of larrikins involved, with much hilarity and merriment. At the same time this forum is also extremely informative and helpful.

This place would not be the same without the outrageously OT, insane arguements, and raaid.

A Zoo is supposed to be a fun place to be, and a place of learning. I feel it to be a fitting title.

fly_zo
10-04-2007, 02:28 AM
... the whole world is a ZOO... this particular part of it i found very comfortable and grove to like it very much http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


"Welcome to the jungle
We got fun 'n' games
We got everything you want
Honey we know the names
We are the people that can find
Whatever you may need
If you got the money honey
We got your disease

In the jungle
Welcome to the jungle
Watch it bring you to your shun n,n,n,n,,n,n,,n,n,n,,n,n,,n knees, knees
I wanna watch you bleed "

triad773
10-04-2007, 02:37 AM
Hey BearCat- I feel your pain to some extent. From my perspective anyway things have gone up and down, like they do in many organizations. But certain things remain consistent: and that's what it's all about in some ways.

A Zoo? - Yes IMHO
Untenable? - not by a long shot as long as there are people who care enough to delete this topic and split that topic where needed. Much of that 'moderating' credit goes to people like you and Ivan and others.

See, beyond this I see the possibility of UBI getting rid of this place because the ROI just ain't what it used to be. That's why the 1C forum comes into play: my feeling (if I may speak so freely,) is that the distro deck is about to be reshuffled so to speak. 1C will likely take over distro of 1946, while UBI will have exclusive rights to BoB:SOW= that's why the forum change. I respectfully tried getting info over at 1C with not much at this time of interest.

Here's hoping that the next BOB:SOW forum will have a place for the relevant as well as the banal, where ever that is.

~S~

Triad

triad773
10-04-2007, 02:53 AM
Ya know- I am really very tired. About to sign off but I had to share this:

This thread reminds me of (and who remembers this anyway):

Are we not men?
(We are DEVO)

Are we not men?
(D-E-V-O)



Cheers and g'nite

Triad

MB_Avro_UK
10-04-2007, 02:54 AM
No, not a zoo.More like an ocean.Full of hidden depths,predators,preys and wrecks...

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

bigbossmalone
10-04-2007, 03:38 AM
I don't really like the term zoo, maybe partly because I don't like zoos - while I can understand the need for zoos from an educational perspective, I guess growing up in Africa has made me appreciative of nature and its creatures in their natural habitat. Take a movie like 'Planet of the Apes', for example - a zoo seems ok until you happen to be the specimen on display.
As for this forum, I've found it educational, entertaining, frustrating, funny - almost the whole range of emotions, and yes, I feel many of us get a bit emotional on this forum, but that, I think, is largely to the fact that we all share a love of this great flight sim.
I've been into computers and computer games since they first came out...and I can honestly say that iL2 has to be the one game(it feels wrong to call it a game, though) that has given me the most entertainment, as well as being pretty educational.
All the things that go with it - the old war stories, the pictures, reading material - all things which would soon be relegated purely to history books, but kept alive by many of us here.
So, for me, almost 40 years down the line, if I had to be called up to that great cloud in the sky tomorrow, if I could take one material thing with me - it would have to be a copy of '46!(and, of course, the necessary rig to run it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif).
Many of you on these forums over the past few years have taught me a lot about the world we live in, the different outlooks, opinions, and for the most part we all seem to be a pretty good bunch of folk - and I wish this was representative of the world at large, but there are still too many bad things going on in the world for that to be the case, IMHO - so, yes, I think we are mostly a special breed on these forums. To each and every one of you - thanks for all the good and bad times over the past couple of years. If this is a zoo, it'll be the only one that I would miss if it were gone!

bigbossmalone: taking FUN seriously since 1968 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

ViktorViktor
10-04-2007, 03:48 AM
Well, I agree that Zoo doesn't describe this forum - but then what should the forum be called ?

Any suggestions ?

fly_zo
10-04-2007, 03:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
Well, I agree that Zoo doesn't describe this forum - but then what should the forum be called ?

Any suggestions ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Mods playground" .... Joke!!!! Joke!!!!

couldn't resist....

ColSandersLite
10-04-2007, 03:59 AM
Some of you may know me from the past here (my user name has changed slightly because I've forgotten my old password), the ofp/arma community, and a few other places perhaps.

I'm sorry guys, but the title is most definitely deserved. I left in disgust of the attitudes found here. I still pop on on occasion just to watch the fights, because I find them rather amusing, and it's just a coincidence that I happened to tonight (I was bored).

I won't say that these are the worst boards I've ever seen, but they are most definitely the worst supposedly moderated boards on a major site I have ever taken part in.



In my humble opinion, some of you guys really need to take heed of that statement and consider the ramifications of what I just said, as it's frankly appalling.

You know, it's a real shame too. There is (or at least was) a ****ton of useful information floating around, the problem is that it's sandwiched in between bickering matches and flamefests. Oh yeah, and the countless fishing threads and the numerous raaaid threads where everyone dogs on the poor dude just because he doesn't quite "get it".

Anyways, that's why I left, and why I shall stay gone.

bigbossmalone
10-04-2007, 04:01 AM
Hmmm, that's a good question, Viktor...
I guess UbiZoo has a nice ring to it, at least.
Anyone got any ideas? Bearcat?
A replacement name for the zoo?

Billy_BigBoy
10-04-2007, 04:14 AM
A zoo, sometimes...
I like going to the zoo. I do that for fun, but also to learn something of other cultures (animals in that matter), pick up some interesting facts and teaching my children new stuff.

For me, I have a great time on this forum, although I can be a bit irritating sometimes, I also like to help other members with small and big issues.

And in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with a little bit of plain fun now and than. Just to vent the seriousness of life.

We all have our own life, jobs, studies and problems. Most of us has flying IL2 and debating on this forum as a hobby. So we don't want to take this to serious all the time. And when someone is in real trouble it often amazes me how many members are willing to help in one way or another.

But hey, that's my opinion.

Sturm_Williger
10-04-2007, 04:16 AM
I voted #2 because I'm naturally optimistic http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I see far fewer flamefests than in the past, but I also believe the mods could be a little more pro-active.

I do dislike watching an informative thread go south via a few regulars with axes to grind against particular posters.

falling-bird
10-04-2007, 04:32 AM
Unfortunately I have to say it's a Zoo. I was away for a while earlier in the year and returned to find screeds and screeds of furious goggle-eyed nonsense being posted. And quoted, my God, again and again and again.

Perhaps being away makes the slide much easier to perceive than constant monitoring, but it's there all right.

I think it's a shame because I have learned a huge amount from the others here over the years, and hopefully given some of that back myself.

This might indeed be a good time to re-examine the acceptable standards of behaviour, and contributors' willingness to stay on topic within a particular thread. This, here, is a social phenomenon, let's make our society an inviting one. Maybe open up the Pilots Lounge again for OT stuff?

It seems to me that if this forum continues to disintegrate, you will be left moderating an arena of fairly unrepresentative gangs badmouthing each other, and, frankly, giving the newcomers a pretty poor idea of what we are about.
This was once an interesting and open forum, where ideas and information were freely exchanged.


You have the power Bearcat

DKoor
10-04-2007, 04:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by dieg777:
Bearcat99, since you asked , and as I respect the work that you do in trying to mod this place, then Id say that it has got worse. To the point that I had effectively stopped posting in GD. The attitude of some that post there display a level of ignorance and bad manners that I find unacceptable. The fact that it happens in other places should not be an excuse to allow it here.

It has reached the level that I believe ,had you had posted this under another name, and not as a mod, then this thread would have lasted a page before being locked. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>+1

The only difference is.....I kept posting here.

Option 1.

RocketDog
10-04-2007, 04:55 AM
Bearcat,

It's definitely a zoo. I can get mature and/or fun discussions here - but if I want them free from offensive name calling, hysterical rants and hints of Nazi-worship I'll go to SimHQ.

Of course, it used to be much worse and eventually some of the most aggressive forum members seemed to get permanently banned about two years ago. But it's sliding again and it's noticeable that the moderators still tolerate a lot of name calling and dubious political views. If you want an example, just read a representative selection of posts by one of the most prodigious posters.

Overall, I think the toleration of poor behaviour reflects badly on the moderators and it's one of the reasons I post here much less frequently than I used to. The toleration of dodgy politics is one reason why I would never recommend these forums to a young peson.

Cheers,

RD.

carguy_
10-04-2007, 05:48 AM
There`s a bunch of cool people posting here, having a good laugh at times.I don`t understand why some individuals insist on seeing the little bad part of the forum.

Oh well, some people like to see the glass half full,some half empty I guess.

Xiolablu3
10-04-2007, 06:05 AM
The fact that its a kind of 'Zoo' is a good thing.

You get so many different types of people all posting different opinions.

Sure there are the few idiots who post ridiculously biased things, but thats life. The people who can see the big picture, just laugh at them and move on...

I like the diversity myself..Its never boring...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Blutarski2004
10-04-2007, 06:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
Bearcat,

It's definitely a zoo. I can get mature and/or fun discussions here - but if I want them free from offensive name calling, hysterical rants and hints of Nazi-worship I'll go to SimHQ.

Of course, it used to be much worse and eventually some of the most aggressive forum members seemed to get permanently banned about two years ago. But it's sliding again and it's noticeable that the moderators still tolerate a lot of name calling and dubious political views. If you want an example, just read a representative selection of posts by one of the most prodigious posters.

Overall, I think the toleration of poor behaviour reflects badly on the moderators and it's one of the reasons I post here much less frequently than I used to. The toleration of dodgy politics is one reason why I would never recommend these forums to a young peson.

Cheers,

RD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... I would like to submit a vote of confidence in our team of moderators. Managing a forum environment like this is a difficult and thankless task. Whatever steps they may take to quell a squabble, they can never satisfy everyone.

This is not to imply that RocketDog's feelings are unreasonable, only to say that I believe there are limits to what moderation can accomplish in an environment as heterogeneous and dynamic as an international web forum. IMO, if there are absolutely no rough edges showing, that is an indication of over-policing.

Just my opinion.

Overall, I consider my time spent at "Ubizoo" to have been well spent and enlightening. There are a lot of great folks here.

DKoor
10-04-2007, 06:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
Managing a forum environment like this is a difficult and thankless task. Whatever steps they may take to quell a squabble, they can never satisfy everyone. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I just want to say - SimHQ.

I never ever saw anything like UBi let loose there.

No chart monkeys, mamooth threads that serve no purpose other than amuse few people by allowing them to bash other users, calling them names, openly insult them etc.

CWoS?

I never saw that there let loose either.

So I think...........

I disagree with you.

100%.

TgD Thunderbolt56
10-04-2007, 06:50 AM
I don't care what other people think. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

...and I go to quite a few other forums too.

I know that if I have a problem, question or something specific to find out about, I can egt a quick, educated and accurate response here (from some members anyway). I understand it also comes with the occassional idiot-response too (of which I've been guilty of posting as well).

Does that make this a zoo? Who cares.

Trudge on men...and LeBillfish.

Kurfurst__
10-04-2007, 06:55 AM
I`ve just seen a post that made me opt for 'Zoo'...

Some guys... no, there`s no word.

Bearcat99
10-04-2007, 06:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
Really I just wanted to mention that your sig looks much better without the cloud (or whatever it was supposed to behttp://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif), Bear.
Is it a .png or did you just make a gray background? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks... yes it is a PNG.. Ihad never heard of PNGs until mbfRoy suggested it.. and yes that was a cloud...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Bearcat = http://www.michaelbarrier.com/Commentary/Live_Action_Walt/Pollyanna.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heeeeyyyy I may be cute.. but I'm certainly no blonde... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Uther:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif Couldn't have said it better myself.
So what has brought this on BC,the new 1C forum opening up?
Also,looking at the new forum,they have an off topic thread, which is definitely something we need here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well to answer the "How come?" questions in one shot.. yes the 1C forum sparked it... but at SOH, Netwings, SimHQ, Frugals... even CWOS for crying out loud.. they call this place the ZOO.. and I just don't see it... even if you took the 6 guys that, believe it or not 7 people sent me PMS mentioning and out of the 7, 5 of them mentioned the 5 of the same guys.. that still doesnt qual;ify the whole place as a ZOO IMO.. it tosses out the baby with the water.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ViktorViktor:
Well, I agree that Zoo doesn't describe this forum - but then what should the forum be called ?
Any suggestions ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmmm OH!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I know!! How about... UBI forums.. you know like... Frugals, SHQ, SoH, just call it what it is...

I think the reason why the term bothers me is that like some have suggested , it insinuates that the mods are the problem... and frankly I think that we do a decent job.. One thing about those other forums that so many people keep mentioning is... even though they may have other boards well SHQ has 20 pages of posts.... we have 1059 in the GD alone... While most of these other sites have several forums, some with more or less traffic, there aren't many forums that can really compare with the volume of the GD,PF&Tech forums here... all in one place moderated by the same group of guys.... I wont even mention the Skins,Squads,Mission Builder & Movie forums here.. Sure we do make mistakes and sometimes things slip through thecracks.. but I think overall we try to keep that balance between civility and hilarity and informativeness... I cant speak for other mods but 9 times out of 10 when something is brought to my attention I look at it and act on it.. now I may not always do what the person thinks I should do... but I act, as do most of the other mods.

I think thats why I take issue with the term ZOO... It's kind of like saying teenagers are all screwed up because a handful decided to shoot up their school .. you know what I mean?

RocketDog
10-04-2007, 07:04 AM
Let me say that it's not all bad here. There are plenty of positive things here and even the very off-topic posters can be quite fun. I used to really like RayBan Jocky's posts because they were deliciously wacky and tongue-in-cheek. Even Raaid's posts are harmless fun. But we could keep all that and still have a forum with adult behaviour if the moderators would actually ban someone once in a while for offensive behaviour.

Cheers,

RD.

Friendly_flyer
10-04-2007, 07:11 AM
The sheer amount of posts is a good point. Personally I think the moderators here do a good job. A bit of sparks livens things up a bit and doesn't hurt, as long as it's kept within its bounds.

Bearcat99
10-04-2007, 07:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
Let me say that it's not all bad here. There are plenty of positive things here and even the very off-topic posters can be quite fun. I used to really like RayBan Jocky's posts because they were deliciously wacky and tongue-in-cheek. Even Raaid's posts are harmless fun. But we could keep all that and still have a forum with adult behaviour if the moderators would actually ban someone once in a while for offensive behaviour.Cheers,
RD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't know what you are talking about. We ban quite a few people ... perhaps some should be banned permanantly.. or I should say some more... but how would you know if you dont see them posting?

Choctaw111
10-04-2007, 07:16 AM
This place really IS very active and very helpful. Much more so than other forums. Sure this place has its share of "horse play", but a lot of good knowledge and beneficial stuff gets passed on around here. I do believe, and I haven't made any comparison (maybe someone else has) that our members are, on average, much older, and therefore carry with them much more experience here, than in other forums.

TgD Thunderbolt56
10-04-2007, 07:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Choctaw111:
This place really IS very active and very helpful. Much more so than other forums. Sure this place has its share of "horse play", but a lot of good knowledge and beneficial stuff gets passed on around here. I do believe, and I haven't made any comparison (maybe someone else has) that our members are, on average, much older, and therefore carry with them much more experience here, than in other forums. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The timeframe since any updates or patches greatly reduces the odds of someone familiar with this forum not already having the information they need/want. Chances are most already have it.

The release of new hardware (i.e. core2duo, 8800 series VC etc,...) brings with it opportunity for people specifically looking for relevant information to get it from some very knowledgable members here.

The release of IL2:1946 brought some new pilots into this community and revived some older thread subjects. Kudos to those members that responded with quick, concise and informative responses and not with "two-weeks" or "control+E".


TB

BOA_Allmenroder
10-04-2007, 07:39 AM
This forum is not a zoo. Rather, it's a carnival circus sideshow where one goes to she the bearded woman, two headed snake and all the other assorted oddities.

falling-bird
10-04-2007, 07:46 AM
Bearcat....

If RD is unaware of posters being banned, and you yourself say -

˜We ban quite a few people ... perhaps some should be banned permanantly.. or I should say some more... but how would you know if you dont see them posting?'

...why not announce a ban when it's made, together with the reason for it? That way we all get to see where the boundaries actually are.

I'd be quite interested to hear what an ex-mods opinion is, anyone there?

BTW Is there only yourself moderating now? What happened to the others?

Bearcat99
10-04-2007, 08:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by falling-bird:
Bearcat....

If RD is unaware of posters being banned, and you yourself say -

˜We ban quite a few people ... perhaps some should be banned permanantly.. or I should say some more... but how would you know if you dont see them posting?'

...why not announce a ban when it's made, together with the reason for it? That way we all get to see where the boundaries actually are.

I'd be quite interested to hear what an ex-mods opinion is, anyone there?

BTW Is there only yourself moderating now? What happened to the others? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are around... I think.... but the reason that we dont announce bans.. or that I dont is because it is like parading someone across the town square in stocks. I usually will announce within the thread that bans are coming.. but as for specifics.. I think that when I do it for the most part you can read the thread and see who gets the ban...

JG14_Josf
10-04-2007, 08:28 AM
Here goes,

A person asks a question presumably looking for an answer. What if the person actually wanted something other than an answer to his question? What if the person wanted to accomplish an unstated goal?

I can't know these things but I can speak my mind and answer the question asked.

The UbiZoo term, as far as I understand it, originated from Kurfurst, who, is often a target of personal attacks on this forum.

Therefore – the meaning of the term UBiZoo may be a description of this forum as a place where personal attacks are common place and routine.

UBiZoo may be a product of something I call collective punishment.

Here is how collective punishment goes:

One person begins to attack someone personally. That person starts something called a flame war. Soon the flame war dominates the first page because people like to read flame wars. The moderator is inspired to do something about it. The moderator picks out a collection of individuals and punishes them with warnings or banishments. The announcement is made public but vague such as:

Some people (who will remain nameless) have been punished (and you know who you are) etc.

What happens next?

Anyone from then on can start the whole process over again with one simple personal attack. If the one simple personal attack doesn't inspire a defense, then, the one individual can ratchet up the attack like a monkey slinging poop from his cage at the zoo.

So long as no one answers the monkey there is no problem – at all. The one monkey is ignored.

Example:

Kurfurst, or anyone, may post something about the 109 and a monkey begins a personal attack routine at Kurfurst while ignoring the actual information posted by Kurfurst on the 109.

Kurfurst ignores the one poster's personal attacks and continues to post more information about the 109.

No harm no foul. The monkey slings poo and it doesn't stick.
What fun is that?

A second monkey chimes in and adds to the size, volume, and stink of the personal attacks, perhaps Kurfurst is called a Nazi for example, and then someone may point out how the whole routine is like a Zoo.

Now the monkey feels powerful. The monkey started something and the flame is burning. The idea, mind you, is to cause the ˜collective punishment' routine. The idea is to exercise the power of punishment given to the monkey.

The monkey loves wielding the power to punish.

Sometimes the monkey may have to nudge the moderator and I suspect that lying is very important to the monkey because facts get in the way like: who started this flame war?

Let it be known, to anyone with a brain, who started this flame war.

Who punishes?

Why?

joeap
10-04-2007, 08:31 AM
I agree Josf there are far too many personal attacks.

Breeze147
10-04-2007, 08:34 AM
This place good I like

jensenpark
10-04-2007, 08:37 AM
I don't think it is anywhere near what it used to be.

I haven't seen anywhere near the anti-US, anti-French, anti-this or that slurs/rants like before.

SeaFireLIV
10-04-2007, 08:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by falling-bird:
Bearcat....

If RD is unaware of posters being banned, and you yourself say -

˜We ban quite a few people ... perhaps some should be banned permanantly.. or I should say some more... but how would you know if you dont see them posting?'

...why not announce a ban when it's made, together with the reason for it? That way we all get to see where the boundaries actually are.

I'd be quite interested to hear what an ex-mods opinion is, anyone there?

BTW Is there only yourself moderating now? What happened to the others? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are around... I think.... but the reason that we dont announce bans.. or that I dont is because it is like parading someone across the town square in stocks. I usually will announce within the thread that bans are coming.. but as for specifics.. I think that when I do it for the most part you can read the thread and see who gets the ban... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed.

Imagine how a person would feel if he got banned for a moment of stupidity and had a big thread saying, "this is why X was banned.", then this is pilloring a person. Why? There`s no need for it, especially if only a temporary ban and he would never be allowed to get over it. Explaining a ban should only be necessary in extreme circumstances (maybe a Mod having to ban a mod?) Explaining ban mistakes should be necessary too.

As for the Ubizoo label. i`ll admit the first time I heard it was from my own squad and I was a bit shocked at the terminology. `Zoo`?

Then I thought about it and thought they were right. At the time, the forum was very much a mashing ground of ridiculous and stupid rants against Oleg with some extremely rude and offensive posts which i entered into in an attempt to bring sanity...

I think it`s settled down a lot more now...

AVG_WarHawk
10-04-2007, 08:45 AM
This Poll is likened to dangling meat in front of lions. Sure, we have a few animals in here that belong in the zoo, but a zoo this is not.

falling-bird
10-04-2007, 08:54 AM
Ok Bearcat, that's answered my question straight enough.

I believe you're genuinely perplexed why this forum has such a bad reputation, but I get the impression that nothing's really going to change in the way this particular forum is...

...fed and watered (?)

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Seafire;
˜Imagine how a person would feel if he got banned for a moment of stupidity and had a big thread saying, "this is why X was banned.", then this is pilloring a person. Why? There`s no need for it, especially if only a temporary ban and he would never be allowed to get over it. Explaining a ban should only be necessary in extreme circumstances (maybe a Mod having to ban a mod?) Explaining ban mistakes should be necessary too.'

It's a really grey area Seafire. I'm sure you've seen posts on other forums from poor beleaguered souls querying their bans from Zoo. They simply don't know what was offensive, and need it to be explained to them. ˜Pillorying' is a very emotive expression, like ˜making an example of'. To be honest, I prefer ˜to encourage the others'.

I completely agree that retractions should be made too.

Roll on, Utopia

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Blutarski2004
10-04-2007, 08:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
Managing a forum environment like this is a difficult and thankless task. Whatever steps they may take to quell a squabble, they can never satisfy everyone. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just want to say - SimHQ.

I never ever saw anything like UBi let loose there.

No chart monkeys, mamooth threads that serve no purpose other than amuse few people by allowing them to bash other users, calling them names, openly insult them etc.

CWoS?

I never saw that there let loose either.

So I think...........

I disagree with you.

100%. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Fair enough. I've spent rather less time on SimHQ, but do concede that affairs seem more sedate there. Perhaps SimHQ has a more severe banishment policy; I honestly don't know. Ubi is a more "intense" experience, but OTOH there are some really intelligent, interesting and informative folks here. It seems to be a trade-off of sorts.

Most of my forum time (aside from here) over the years has been devoted to the old Delphi RB3D Forum and to Navwargames. Both have, more or less, seen their share of flame wars. OTOH, I've visited and rapidly departed from some really ridiculous forums.

I still think that the moderators here do a good job of herding us cats.

My opinion.

BrotherVoodoo
10-04-2007, 09:28 AM
These forums are pretty tame and for the most part informative. There is the occasional annoyance here and there but I would not describe this place as a Zoo.

Pirschjaeger
10-04-2007, 09:35 AM
After seeing fly_zo's sig,......I'm thinking "petting zoo". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

Fritz

RocketDog
10-04-2007, 09:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
You don't know what you are talking about. We ban quite a few people ... perhaps some should be banned permanantly.. or I should say some more... but how would you know if you dont see them posting? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bearcat,

Actually, I'm pretty sure I was involved in getting two people permanently banned. I won't name names, but I would have been one among what I am sure was a number of people discussing two particular cases with the mods. However, since I didn't get any feedback it's hard to know. In both cases the poster just abruptly vanished.

With regard to the current state of the forums, I don't think anyone minds rambling posts or even just plain dotty ones. What gets up a lot of noses is the ease with which one or two regular posters drop into juvenile personal insults of the sort they would never use IRL. You can add to that my own personal dislike of posts implying that the Nazis weren't all that bad. The first type just make it look like the mods approve of that kind of behaviour. The second type have the potential to be really harmful because if they blow up into a media story then ubi might just pull the plug on the forums altogether rather than deal with the bad publicity.

Cheers,

RD.

MEGILE
10-04-2007, 10:30 AM
Only pussies b1tch about the UBI.
This is the internet... your mom aint holding your hand anymore, she is on milf-hunter getting her fuch on.

Brain32
10-04-2007, 10:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
I just want to say - SimHQ.

I never ever saw anything like UBi let loose there.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Aaaaand the big question is why? Isn't it? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Many SAME people post on both of theese, yet UBI is a "ZOO" and SimHQ is "Heaven".
The reason is quite simple IMO, many of theese "honest, good people with good intentions" who hate "chat monkeys", "Luftwhiners", "USAwhiners" and other etiqutted groups, participate in those "awful" threads often making things even worse. Typical example is:
"Oh I hate theese kind of threads and yadda, yadda, yadda, (insert few personal attacks of Nazi type preferably http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) then yadda, yadda, yadda,(insert few group attacks) then yadda, yadda, yadda, you are all ******ed, you hate Oleg and ruined this place whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif"
All those are actually guys that are highly interested in the topic, but either have no guts to say what they think or simply have no basis for their words and are afraid to get pwned by more expirienced "#####whiners". Grow up, if you don't like the thread don't read or at the very least do not participate in it.

Do you know why there isn't such threads so many of you claim ruined the ubi forums on SimHQ? Because people simply DO NOT participate in them, post some *insert one of our classics* threads there and it will die of on 2nd-3rd page if you're lucky lol. Plain and simply.

My second point is statistical, open 1st page of GD and count the "zoo-ish" threads, how many? Four? Five? Out of how many? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Other than that - NEWSFLASH - we have some other subforums. Skinners,Mission builders, Movie makers, Community help are all very usefull, informative and helpfull with quite good atmosphere.
ORR, temporarly deserted by the devs seems to be not so atractive, but I also find Pacific Fighters quite good and pretty close to the SimHQ.

I don't think this place is a Zoo overall, but I like the nickname, maybe it sounds freightening enough to keep all those nancy boys out of our kennels http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

ploughman
10-04-2007, 10:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
Only pussies b1tch about the UBI.
This is the internet... your mom aint holding your hand anymore, she is on milf-hunter getting her fuch on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Darn right.

LEBillfish
10-04-2007, 10:48 AM
My Opinion... (http://moviewavs.com/0095461785/WAVS/TV_Shows/Price_Is_Right/pets.wav)

Stew278
10-04-2007, 11:15 AM
I wouldn't say this is a zoo. I think some flight sim forums, like Frugal's, actually get worse at times.

Sure, other forums like SimHQ are more spartan, but they are also less interesting to read. A little leeway and expressive freedom isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I'd have to echo what others here have said, the main thing that really crosses the line, for me, is when people resort to personal attacks. But this is the web and a lot of people like to use the safety and anonymity it provides to be a jerk. Then again maybe they are the same in person, who knows?

Also, there are some cases where people take what the poster said out of context or misunderstand and things degenerate into a flame war. I've seen some posts that, while polarizing, I don't believe were intended to start a fight or offend others, but got ugly real fast.

It would be nice to be able to debate the merits/flaws of different aircraft without it turning into a war, but show me a forum where such discussions don't degenerate into bickering.

Either way, even with the occasional flamefest and bickering this is still the best flight sim forum in my opinion.

Kurfurst__
10-04-2007, 12:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
You don't know what you are talking about. We ban quite a few people ... perhaps some should be banned permanantly.. or I should say some more... but how would you know if you dont see them posting? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bearcat,

Actually, I'm pretty sure I was involved in getting two people permanently banned. I won't name names, but I would have been one among what I am sure was a number of people discussing two particular cases with the mods. However, since I didn't get any feedback it's hard to know. In both cases the poster just abruptly vanished.

With regard to the current state of the forums, I don't think anyone minds rambling posts or even just plain dotty ones. What gets up a lot of noses is the ease with which one or two regular posters drop into juvenile personal insults of the sort they would never use IRL. You can add to that my own personal dislike of posts implying that the Nazis weren't all that bad. The first type just make it look like the mods approve of that kind of behaviour. The second type have the potential to be really harmful because if they blow up into a media story then ubi might just pull the plug on the forums altogether rather than deal with the bad publicity.

Cheers,

RD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Maybe the moderation should do something about posters who call members a nazi on the basis that they dislike them in the casual manner and repetance like a morning exercise. I can find about 6 post from the last couple of days Rocketdog calling directly or implying members to be nazis, nazi symphatizers repeatadly without even the slightest attempt to actually participate in the discussion itself, or present ANY arguement at all connecting the discussion apart that the other guy is a nazi, and he should be banned.

This guys comes here to boast about in how many bans he and his slimey lies were involved, while doing all this above, even here. This kind of nauseating hypocritism is getting taxing.

I have a direct question to our moderation team why he is allowed to call other members Nazis without conseqences.

And you ask why this forum is considered a zoo... there`s the example m8.

MEGILE
10-04-2007, 12:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__: empty rhetorics
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spare the crocodile tears Kurfurst. You are no stranger to implying UBI members are Anti-Semite Nationalists.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:

This kind of nauseating hypocritism is getting taxing </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would suggest your posts are more amusing than taxing, but I digress.

sgt.dumpster
10-04-2007, 01:02 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gifI see us more as a interesting flying circus that would make the Baron Manfred Von Richtoven himself proud of! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Kurfurst__
10-04-2007, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__: empty rhetorics
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spare the crocodile tears Kurfurst. You are no stranger to implying UBI members are Anti-Semite Nationalists. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well if I got two week for 'implying' that, I wonder what someone gets for this.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1251091595

Sidenote - these being his only 'contributions' to the discussion.

Permanent ban ?

Blutarski2004
10-04-2007, 01:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__: empty rhetorics
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spare the crocodile tears Kurfurst. You are no stranger to implying UBI members are Anti-Semite Nationalists. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well if I got two week for 'implying' that, I wonder what someone gets for this.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/1251091595

Sidenote - these being his only 'contributions' to the discussion.

Permanent ban ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Depends. Of what exactly are you accusing RD?

Kurfurst__
10-04-2007, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:

..... Depends. Of what exactly are you accusing RD? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Harass, threaten, embarrass, or stalk or cause distress, unwanted attention or discomfort to another Member or Guest.

Post content or send Communications of any form impugning someone's race, sexual orientation, religion, national origin, political beliefs, or ethnic heritage.

Transmit or facilitate distribution of content or Communications that are harmful, abusive, racially or ethnically offensive, vulgar, sexually explicit, obscene, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights, or in a reasonable person's view, objectionable.

Post or communicate "Hate speech."

RocketDog
10-04-2007, 01:33 PM
BLUT,

I have two gripes about Kurfles that seem to wind him up. The first is the very personal insults he directs at people in various threads, "deluded", "liar" etc. I think you've been on the receiving end often enough to know what I'm talking about. It's childish but the mods allow it so there we are. My second gripe is his continuing attempts to make a moral equivalence between the democracies of the 1940s and the fascist states. I can either challenge him on it or just let him rattle on. Sometimes he provokes me enough to actually answer, other times I just let it ride. Most times I just don't read his posts because I already know what he's going to say. Recently, the only thing that interests me about him is wondering exactly where his motivation comes from. But to be honest, it's all a bit too much like hard work I simply can't spend as much time on it as he can - so I guess he wins http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Cheers,

RD.

Rjel
10-04-2007, 01:34 PM
I don't see this forum as being any worse than most other flightsim forums I post on or look at. It seems to be the same on most in that a few set themselves up as experts, somehow more important because of their number of posts or just out of arrogance. But, that's the world in general. A little housecleaning takes care of them eventually.

The bigger problem, IMO, is the rampant nationalism here. And it comes from all corners. Instead of creating a camaraderie amongst the membership, it seems most any post remotely hinting at a negative toward any groups' personal ties or interests is immediately jumped on and jumped on hard.

On the upside, this is where I come when I have an important question to ask. I usually get at least an idea on how come or what is happening. Not a lot of that on a lot of forums. Just guesses generally, which I can do myself thankyouverymuch. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ploughman
10-04-2007, 01:36 PM
Kurf,

That's rich, given you posted this:

"I think that's the whole point here. Double standards and hypocriticism are deeper rooted in Anglo-Saxon 'folks' than on Continental Europe. The English never say 'no' - they tell you in a lenghty manner that you should not even ask about it, since the answer would be 'no'. Political correctness. 'How do you do' when you actually don't give a dang. Suddenly being concered for forums rules after running out of arguements. When someone points the nature of that out, trying to make that look like a racist attack."

The other day when I questioned that someone posting "Anglo-Saxons exhibit double standards" might defame someone's race and/or ethnicity.

You're duplicity is extra-ordinary Kurf. We're not goldfish, we do remember what you post.

Rjel
10-04-2007, 01:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
My Opinion... (http://moviewavs.com/0095461785/WAVS/TV_Shows/Price_Is_Right/pets.wav) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I imagine a couple of TPIR models wished the same would've been done to Mr. Barker. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

RocketDog
10-04-2007, 01:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman (re: Kurfles):
We're not goldfish, we do remember what you post. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think with Kurfles it's actually a regular thing. On another forum the same thing came up. There, the mods made quite a perceptive summary. I quote it here.

Cheers,

RD.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> On the other side, Kurfürst, it can be hard to seperate what is a healthy interest in military history and what seems to be a somehow large and morbid fascination with Nazi germany.

Well, since this is a discussion board, debates are all good, but this seems to go ugly on us.

here are my takes on this:
1) this is a board on military history. World war 2 and Nazi germany is legimate topics to say the least! If one can't stand that some people are fascinated to some degree by the german miltary machiine, the WW2 forum is perhaps not the best place to hang

2) While we tolerate a wide range of topics in the ww2 area, anything clearly neonazi or in any other wan non approriate will be removed. We will NOT be associated with that type of ****!

3) The major problems often seems to be not the issues 60-70 year ago, but people today refighting their grandads war on the net for nationalistic purposes. No names need to be mentioned, but there seems to be nationalistic trends from several estemed members from the eastern part of europe that can easily results in flame wars. This will not be tolerated, and I will monitor it more closely. If you can't play nice, don't play here!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SeaFireLIV
10-04-2007, 01:59 PM
Just when all was looking good and UBI IL2 forum seemed forgiven, the `zoo` effect is creeping back...

great. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Can`t you guys just stop it for at least ONE feel-good thread?

leitmotiv
10-04-2007, 02:04 PM
Mulling on the toxicity that is K is a fine endeavor and is morally uplifting. He is the David Irving of game forums!

Kurfurst__
10-04-2007, 02:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:
Kurf,

That's rich, given you posted this:

"I think that's the whole point here. Double standards and hypocriticism are deeper rooted in Anglo-Saxon 'folks' than on Continental Europe. The English never say 'no' - they tell you in a lenghty manner that you should not even ask about it, since the answer would be 'no'. Political correctness. 'How do you do' when you actually don't give a dang. Suddenly being concered for forums rules after running out of arguements. When someone points the nature of that out, trying to make that look like a racist attack."

The other day when I questioned that someone posting "Anglo-Saxons exhibit double standards" might defame someone's race and/or ethnicity.

You're duplicity is extra-ordinary Kurf. We're not goldfish, we do remember what you post. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don`t see what`s offensive in that, I tried to explain to you that Anglo-Saxon social culture tends to use indirect form of communications ('The English never say 'no'...), while in Continental European culture the communication is much more direct.

Now, an more extreme form of indirect communication would be hypocritism, an extreme form of direct communication would be being rude. That`s what I meant under being 'deeper rooted'. Sorry if you misunderstood that, but I don`t think I can explain better than

Now as for the "Anglo-Saxons exhibit double standards", it wasn`t from me but another poster, and he meant exactly Rocketdog. Why? Because he *****es to the mods non-stop and tries frame and make up accusation about people to get them banned, for the sole reason he does not like them.

At the same time, he regulalry simply stalks people, calls them a NAZI, violates the rules of the forum dozens of times while not even participating in the discussion itself for a minute. He`s solely entering threads to stalk people, and repeatadly call them Nazis, Fascit apologist, rooter of nazis, petty eastern european nationalist, or should I quote more from him, there`s plenty of titles to pick from !

I patiently await what the moderators of this board want to do about this level of violation of the board. Then I`ll turn to higher levels if neccesary. I do not tolerate getting called a nazi just because someone is lazy to put up a convincing arguement and full of hatred and slimey ways to accuse in hope of a ban.

Blutarski2004
10-04-2007, 02:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:

..... Depends. Of what exactly are you accusing RD? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Harass, threaten, embarrass, or stalk or cause distress, unwanted attention or discomfort to another Member or Guest. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

..... Not trying to be clever or disingenuous here, but a strict interpretation of the above by the moderators would probably result in the banning of 95 pct of the participants on this forum, myself and yourself included, for breach of one or another or several of the above guidelines. Does RD stand out that much more than the rest of us? That has to be a judgement call on the part of the moderators.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Post content or send Communications of any form impugning someone's race, sexual orientation, religion, national origin, political beliefs, or ethnic heritage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

..... While I admit that I don't keep close tabs on all the exchanges between you and RD, I don't recall ever having come across any attack upon your race, sexual orientation, religion, national origin, or ethnic heritage. So it must come down to the issue of political beliefs. RD's posts have perhaps speculated darkly about what your political beliefs might actually be, but my sense is that his basic objections are not connected to your actual beliefs in that regard but to your repeated representations of a moral equivalence between certain Western nations and Fascism. You probably don't agree, since it strikes more closely to you than to me. In any case, I find the verb "impugn" a very loose term, in the sense that its modern definition is: "to challenge as false (another's statements, motives, etc.) or cast doubt upon". Who on this forum hasn't done so with respect to another?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Transmit or facilitate distribution of content or Communications that are harmful, abusive, racially or ethnically offensive, vulgar, sexually explicit, obscene, defamatory, infringing, invasive of personal privacy or publicity rights, or in a reasonable person's view, objectionable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

..... I don't connect RD's comments as representing any excesses in this regard.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Post or communicate "Hate speech." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

..... Same as above. I've never read anything resembling hate speech in any RD post.

stalkervision
10-04-2007, 02:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">On the other side, Kurfürst, it can be hard to seperate what is a healthy interest in military history and what seems to be a somehow large and morbid fascination with Nazi germany. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

the flip side of this is of course is inability of some in seperating german military and technological achivements in ww2 and their historical ramifications to the present day from their basic hatred of german technology and all things german due to fact that this technology was subverted and used by the nazi party and hitler in ww2 for their own twisted purposes..

I remember quite clearly "the Japanese car invasion" of the seventies. Many people couldn't get over the fact that Japanese cars were being imported to this county and were selling quite well after fighting Japanese military technology in ww2! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Kurfurst__
10-04-2007, 02:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman (re: Kurfles):
We're not goldfish, we do remember what you post. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think with Kurfles it's actually a regular thing. On another forum the same thing came up. There, the mods made quite a perceptive summary. I quote it here.

Cheers,

RD.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> On the other side, Kurfürst, it can be hard to seperate what is a healthy interest in military history and what seems to be a somehow large and morbid fascination with Nazi germany.

Well, since this is a discussion board, debates are all good, but this seems to go ugly on us.

here are my takes on this:
1) this is a board on military history. World war 2 and Nazi germany is legimate topics to say the least! If one can't stand that some people are fascinated to some degree by the german miltary machiine, the WW2 forum is perhaps not the best place to hang

2) While we tolerate a wide range of topics in the ww2 area, anything clearly neonazi or in any other wan non approriate will be removed. We will NOT be associated with that type of ****!

3) The major problems often seems to be not the issues 60-70 year ago, but people today refighting their grandads war on the net for nationalistic purposes. No names need to be mentioned, but there seems to be nationalistic trends from several estemed members from the eastern part of europe that can easily results in flame wars. This will not be tolerated, and I will monitor it more closely. If you can't play nice, don't play here!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pity that it`s the aftereffect of some rather ugly flamewars between Polish and Ukrainian members. I am neither... ah, but all the same, 'Petty Eastern European nationalists' in Rocketdog`s vocabulary.

The thread is it from is actually from a thread where I have issued a formal complaint to the local moderators about a poster who had a reputation of over-eagerness to associate members and literally inquisite them for sign of Nazism. etc.

This poster had formally apologized for being 'misunderstandable' as he called it, and with that the thread was closed. It never happened ever since.

Rocketdog simply edited to original message, cut out parts he didn`t like and staged it like it was about my tresspassing. Interesting, I`ve never seen anyone with the name Rocket Dog there, perhaps our esteemed college RD is just a second login? A story full of things to consider to this board IMHO.

I can provide the link if anyone wants, in the same link our esteemed member luftluuer is getting banned for personal attacks for 1 week, and then after the weeks he came back and started right where he finished, with personal attack earning another 2 weeks in the slammer immidiately.

DKoor
10-04-2007, 02:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
Managing a forum environment like this is a difficult and thankless task. Whatever steps they may take to quell a squabble, they can never satisfy everyone. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just want to say - SimHQ.

I never ever saw anything like UBi let loose there.

No chart monkeys, mamooth threads that serve no purpose other than amuse few people by allowing them to bash other users, calling them names, openly insult them etc.

CWoS?

I never saw that there let loose either.

So I think...........

I disagree with you.

100%. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Fair enough. I've spent rather less time on SimHQ, but do concede that affairs seem more sedate there. Perhaps SimHQ has a more severe banishment policy; I honestly don't know. Ubi is a more "intense" experience, but OTOH there are some really intelligent, interesting and informative folks here. It seems to be a trade-off of sorts.

Most of my forum time (aside from here) over the years has been devoted to the old Delphi RB3D Forum and to Navwargames. Both have, more or less, seen their share of flame wars. OTOH, I've visited and rapidly departed from some really ridiculous forums.

I still think that the moderators here do a good job of herding us cats.

My opinion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>This is the kind of discussion that is good. We can have a nice conversation without name calling and bashing each other.

Some of you nice folks, in spite of me agreeing/disagreeing with you etc., are among biggest reasons why I hang out here.

luftluuver
10-04-2007, 02:19 PM
Do you see yet where the real problem is Bearcat?

RD was that from this board?
http://www.1jma.dk/default.asp

Ppl should browse that board.

Kurfurst__
10-04-2007, 02:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
..... Not trying to be clever or disingenuous here, but a strict interpretation of the above by the moderators would probably result in the banning of 95 pct of the participants on this forum, myself and yourself included, for breach of one or another or several of the above guidelines. Does RD stand out that much more than the rest of us? That has to be a judgement call on the part of the moderators. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the fact the RD`s sole contribution to a subject was 8-page worth of repeated Nazi accusations and various other slanders against my person provides ample evidence to that.

Yes, there are heated discussions, and there are posters who don`t even participate in a discussion, the only posts they make in the thread is slander, with more or less the same content : Nazi, Nazi rooter, Nazi apologist etc.

Well if of course this kind of behaviour is still within normal, tolerable limits.. that`s kind of a scary precedent for the board now doesn`t it? If this goes, in front of the moderator`s face, anything goes.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Post content or send Communications of any form impugning someone's race, sexual orientation, religion, national origin, political beliefs, or ethnic heritage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

..... While I admit that I don't keep close tabs on all the exchanges between you and RD, I don't recall ever having come across any attack upon your race, sexual orientation, religion, national origin, or ethnic heritage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh I can provide you with plenty...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
This raises a question which is actually the only interesting thing about Kurfles. Is he mad or bad? His fellow uber-twin, Huckbein_Fw, was clearly a rather disturbed individual who had real problems with anger. It was pretty hard to imagine him being able to cope with people in the real world and the anonymity of the web let him pour out his frustrations and resentments in forums like this one. But with Kurfles, it's hard to know if his behaviour is simply immature aggression or if it has deeper roots in a more disturbed state of mind. I'd always pegged him as just another Nazi-wannabe, compensating for his problems in real life by fantasising about a society in which people like him would be in a position to revenge themselves on the rest of us for various imagined slights (for in such fantasies, the fantasist is always the one wearing jackboots).

If you look at what he posts, you can almost see how his behaviour has come about. He seems to be a petty eastern-European nationalist of a rather old-fashioned type who has fixated on the Bf-109 because it was manufactured in his native Romania. There seems to be a great deal of his self esteem invested in proving it was better than any other aircraft. Unfortunately, his enthusiasm for the 109 appears to have spread to embrace the political system that produced it. The only way he can justify this is by arguing that while the Nazis were bad, everybody else was even worse. Of course, here Kurfles is being intellectually lazy to the point of being comatose, but that's how it reads to me. However, I am just guessing what has made him behave like he does and I might be quite wrong.

The example from the Aces High forum suggests a much deeper level of problem. At any rate, I still think a permanent ban would be the best option. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> So it must come down to the issue of political beliefs. RD's posts have perhaps speculated darkly about what your political beliefs might actually be, but my sense is that his basic objections are not connected to your actual beliefs in that regard but to your repeated representations of a moral equivalence between certain Western nations and Fascism. You probably don't agree, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You bet I don`t agree someone making up something and then repeating it to slander !


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">since it strikes more closely to you than to me. In any case, I find the verb "impugn" a very loose term, in the sense that its modern definition is: "to challenge as false (another's statements, motives, etc.) or cast doubt upon". Who on this forum hasn't done so with respect to another? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who on this forum hasn't done so with respect to another in half a dozen repeating post in the same thread without even attempting to discuss the thread`s subject at all ?

MB_Avro_UK
10-04-2007, 02:25 PM
Hi all,

I don't have a problem with this site and its certainly not a 'zoo'.('zoo' being used in a derogatory sense).

I check it almost daily and I'm amazed at the fast flow of topics and information. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

As in life,you filter the information as you see fit.

A problem is the written word. It can be taken the wrong way:

For instance, you and I in a bar with a few beers would laugh at a bit of verbal banter, but in cold print on a forum it could be seen as offensive and insulting.

Perhaps we need more beer here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif..you're all invited over to my place but bring a couple of bottles...I'll bring on the pizza http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Platypus_1.JaVA
10-04-2007, 02:26 PM
There is several things here. Some people are here for too long. And get an attitude. Even in this thread, there is a fight starting. And the one thing that annoys me, is the complete absence of any intrest from the side of UBIsoft. I think the only thing that holds them from closing these Il-2 forum is because this is by far the busiest one and there will be a ton of complains if they pull the plug. Where are Carl Norman and cartrix (or was it hatrix?) Are they, or anyone at UBIsoft afraid of wasting time here?

Does anyone remember the "friday development updates" here? They where for the development of Forgotten Battles I believe. A few screenshots and some info was what we got each friday. But people started complaing and DEMANDED more screenie's, movies and info. Wich was completly outrageous of course. There was an end to how many new things they could show. I think Oleg left these forums because of that. I suppose mods had their hands full back then.

I'm sorry for you bearcat, I really am, but there are far more nicer places to discuss this game. Or aviation in general.

Blutarski2004
10-04-2007, 02:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
Managing a forum environment like this is a difficult and thankless task. Whatever steps they may take to quell a squabble, they can never satisfy everyone. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just want to say - SimHQ.

I never ever saw anything like UBi let loose there.

No chart monkeys, mamooth threads that serve no purpose other than amuse few people by allowing them to bash other users, calling them names, openly insult them etc.

CWoS?

I never saw that there let loose either.

So I think...........

I disagree with you.

100%. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Fair enough. I've spent rather less time on SimHQ, but do concede that affairs seem more sedate there. Perhaps SimHQ has a more severe banishment policy; I honestly don't know. Ubi is a more "intense" experience, but OTOH there are some really intelligent, interesting and informative folks here. It seems to be a trade-off of sorts.

Most of my forum time (aside from here) over the years has been devoted to the old Delphi RB3D Forum and to Navwargames. Both have, more or less, seen their share of flame wars. OTOH, I've visited and rapidly departed from some really ridiculous forums.

I still think that the moderators here do a good job of herding us cats.

My opinion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>This is the kind of discussion that is good. We can have a nice conversation without name calling and bashing each other.

Some of you nice folks, in spite of me agreeing/disagreeing with you etc., are among biggest reasons why I hang out here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... DK, I fully agree in both respects.

luftluuver
10-04-2007, 02:40 PM
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">There is an old saying:

'The more guilty a person is the more noise they make about their innocence'</span>

Blutarski2004
10-04-2007, 02:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Who on this forum hasn't done so with respect to another in half a dozen repeating post in the same thread without even attempting to discuss the thread`s subject at all ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... and what exactly are you referring to here?

Kurfurst__
10-04-2007, 02:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Who on this forum hasn't done so with respect to another in half a dozen repeating post in the same thread without even attempting to discuss the thread`s subject at all ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... and what exactly are you referring to here? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am referring to the fact that ROCKETDOG`s posts in the thread in question contained nothing but the repetative description of me as a NAZI/NAZI supporter etc. He doesn`t even bother to participate in discussions anymore, he merely keeps repeating in the last few days that I am Nazi, in this thread also. This is something new, posters only posting in a thread to chant a mantra of slandering. As I said there are some heated discussion, mistakes and errors, insults getting thrown from both sides; but those are still aiming to DISCUSS, and some heat is a byproduct while Rocketdog only aims to slander in any thread recently.

I am also referring to a fatly deserved permanent ban here.


Let me quote you all of RocketDog`s post from that thread, in order of appearance :


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
Once again, there is no action taken by a democracy that Kurfles won't condemn. And there is no action taken by fascists that he will. I wonder what side Kurfles would have wanted to fight for had he been alive in WWII? Perhaps he would like to tell us?
Cheers,
RD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
Beowulf,

Your signature says to never discuss with stupid people. But what are we to do with Kurfles? He's desperate to make a moral equivalence between the murderous fascists of the 1940s and the Allies. It sneaks into most of his posts in the end. This one is no different. It's bonkers and mendacious. I think he wants to do this because it allows him to indulge his admiration for the Axis without having to feel guilty about rooting for the Nazis. But maybe I'm wrong.

At any rate, we are left with either allowing him to spread his revisionist history or challenging him on it every time he starts to slide. The first option would be easy. But we wouldn't let someone get away with it at work, so why should we do it here? Of course, the easiest option of all is just to wind him up by replying in kind. Sometimes I do this because it amuses me see him boil. But that option ends every thread where he posts in a flame fest. I've often thought that the best solution would be to ban him permanently. I think something like that happened to the other "uber twin" and I would be happy if the mods did it in this case. But for some reason he has a charmed life and still gets to post here (In fact, Ivan seems particularly tolerant of him).

So what are we to do? I think in the end I will just give up. I used to post here a lot, but the endless procession of Nazi fanboys begins to tire after a while.

Cheers,

RD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
It would make these boards much better if he was banned. In the days when we had both Uber Twins, I had a series of private discussions with the moderators about what was happening to the forums and in particular the way that Nazi sympathies were being brought in by the back door - the lunatics were taking over the asylum. They banned a couple of people and there was quite a positive change to the forum. Even now it's still much better than it used to be.

But the mods are still very slow to act. We had some fool recently who thought that modern-day Jews should not necessarily be killed, but should be persecuted just enough to encourage them to voluntarily leave modern-day Germany. Very generous of him. I pointed this out to (IIRC) Tully, but he didn't seem to think it was a problem. It took several days after that before he was finally banned. I guess that someone higher up the chain finally had had enough.

In comparison, Kurfles is actually very clever. He always stops just short of an open endorsement of fascism and prefers instead to work on making a moral equivalence between democracy and fascism. Of course, he continually undermines his own position by resorting to hystrerical accusations when he's challenged. He'd be far more dangerous if he could keep his anger under control.

Cheers,

RD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:

Here, again, you are twisting the truth. At the very core of Hitler's philosophy was an obsession with race and a xenophobic hatred of the "other". Something you conveniently ignore. Most European states built empires. Only the Nazi one used it to systematically exterminate entire populations. There is a world of difference between the Raj and the Holocaust.

As I see it, you are just an apologist for fascism.

RD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
This raises a question which is actually the only interesting thing about Kurfles. Is he mad or bad? His fellow uber-twin, Huckbein_Fw, was clearly a rather disturbed individual who had real problems with anger. It was pretty hard to imagine him being able to cope with people in the real world and the anonymity of the web let him pour out his frustrations and resentments in forums like this one. But with Kurfles, it's hard to know if his behaviour is simply immature aggression or if it has deeper roots in a more disturbed state of mind. I'd always pegged him as just another Nazi-wannabe, compensating for his problems in real life by fantasising about a society in which people like him would be in a position to revenge themselves on the rest of us for various imagined slights (for in such fantasies, the fantasist is always the one wearing jackboots).

If you look at what he posts, you can almost see how his behaviour has come about. He seems to be a petty eastern-European nationalist of a rather old-fashioned type who has fixated on the Bf-109 because it was manufactured in his native Romania. There seems to be a great deal of his self esteem invested in proving it was better than any other aircraft. Unfortunately, his enthusiasm for the 109 appears to have spread to embrace the political system that produced it. The only way he can justify this is by arguing that while the Nazis were bad, everybody else was even worse. Of course, here Kurfles is being intellectually lazy to the point of being comatose, but that's how it reads to me. However, I am just guessing what has made him behave like he does and I might be quite wrong.

The example from the Aces High forum suggests a much deeper level of problem. At any rate, I still think a permanent ban would be the best option.

Cheers,

RD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RocketDog:
Beo - let's be blunt. Kurfles appears to think that the fascists of WWII weren't all that bad. He appears to think, for instance, that the British Raj was morally no different or even worse than the Nazi regime and its genocidal project in the Holocaust. I believe him to be wrong. I would imagine almost any thinking person would believe him to be wrong.

Identifying the Nazi regime like this doesn't depend on one's nationality or ethnicity. It depends on a basic understanding of the facts of history.

Cheers,

RD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ploughman
10-04-2007, 02:53 PM
Very generous of you but I don't see a need for you to lobby for a permanent ban Kurf, if you'd just stop with the Baghdad Bob behaviour I for one would be quite happy for you to continue posting. You're a useful member of our community most of the time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DmdSeeker
10-04-2007, 03:09 PM
Too much off topic time wasting, too much sexism and homophobia.

Additionaly, it's obvious to me that there's a core of posters that can just laugh at the published posting rules; there'll be no action taken.

A quick look at the new 1C forum blatently shows how these idiots behave. I can only hope they're banned in short order.

luftluuver
10-04-2007, 03:10 PM
Kapt K why do ppl think that is your political affiliation, and it is not just here at Ubi that I see this either?

VW-IceFire
10-04-2007, 03:13 PM
I used to defend this place but some of the stupidity in the last year has reached completely new heights. In fact its way beyond just stupidity...its the arrogance and nationalistic chest beating thats really gone over the top recently. It was always there...but I think some people are still fighting the war somehow.

Still visit and post because there ARE useful and fun filled threads. But they seem to be diminishing. Its a shame but its also a sign of the games popularity and its expansion into the general populace http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

leitmotiv
10-04-2007, 03:14 PM
Ha! Patently obvious the 1C forum is going to be a tight ship---in a matter of minutes earlier today the mod quashed just about every thread---O the huge manatee! I noticed the surge back to Ubisoft instantly where the hunting laws are looser.

luftluuver
10-04-2007, 03:19 PM
From the old threads I have read IceFire, I would say the board has got better. There is something common between those old threads and the new threads though. No name needs to be mentioned.

slipBall
10-04-2007, 03:29 PM
My rateing, 85% helpfull and informative....15% ZOO http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

DKoor
10-04-2007, 03:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Ha! Patently obvious the 1C forum is going to be a tight ship---in a matter of minutes earlier today the mod quashed just about every thread---O the huge manatee! I noticed the surge back to Ubisoft instantly where the hunting laws are looser. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

It's so funny............

Xiolablu3
10-04-2007, 03:33 PM
The bits you have quoted from RD is a really good summing up of how you come across Kurfy.

If you have a problem with it, then maybe you should take a look at yourself.

Often comparing the Democracies to the Fascists and declaring that the Democaracis are worse....If there is a chance to get a dig in at the Allies, or even better,Britain, you are right in there like a dog to a bone.

No insults here, just honesty.

slipBall
10-04-2007, 03:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Ha! Patently obvious the 1C forum is going to be a tight ship---in a matter of minutes earlier today the mod quashed just about every thread---O the huge manatee! I noticed the surge back to Ubisoft instantly where the hunting laws are looser. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

It's so funny............ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



3 of the 11 locked threads...were started by Megile http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

MEGILE
10-04-2007, 03:37 PM
It appears cheerleaders are no more safe at 1C, than they are at UBI.

BUT, the colour scheme is addictive, so I'll stay.

slipBall
10-04-2007, 03:41 PM
Yes, Resistance is futile

Kurfurst__
10-04-2007, 03:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The bits you have quoted from RD is a really good summing up of how you come across Kurfy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Trouble with that is why then only RD sounds such opinions (but he repeatadly) and while I was having a perfectly amiable discussion with other Brits about the history of the British Empire, social conditions in the industrial age and so on... without them calling me a Nazi in every single post.

A thing to consider IMHO.

leitmotiv
10-04-2007, 03:44 PM
Cheerleader fascism is intolerable.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s261/G6AS/Picture1-26.png

Enthor1
10-04-2007, 03:46 PM
Yes, although the keepers have done a fair job of cleaning the cages, the moniker still fits.

Several pages of this poll confirm and the recent migration of denizens of this facility to the new 1c board and their comments there reconfirm our proper right to the title.

That said, there is still much useful info here outside the petting zoo that is GD and the reptile cages of ORR.

Xiolablu3
10-04-2007, 03:48 PM
BTW, I wouldnt particularly want to see Kurfy banned, he does post some good info on the Bf109 sometimes, as long as you take into account that its heavily weighted in favour of the Bf109.

With all the history channel SPitfire/P51 'fanboyness', its good to have some bf109 'fanboyness' too, to balance things out.

Just remember that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I do hate his anti-British rants/posts however (I am English), and the fact that he often compares the Democracies to the Fascists and actually believes that the Democracies are as bad (!).

The fact that this is a 'Zoo' is a good thing IMO. Lots of opinions and all sorts of characters.

Just my thoughts.

Kurfurst__
10-04-2007, 04:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
...and the fact that he often compares the Democracies to the Fascists and actually believes that the Democracies are as bad (!)... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just for the record : I don`t. As for what I actually believe, I think it`s my sole privilage to state.

Just go back to Perikles, a wonderful, self-governing society with an immensly rich culture on one hand, made possible by slave labour and the exploitation of Athen`s smaller allies...

Now, would mentioning that *caugh* the classical Athen was resting quite a bit on the labour of slaves from the Persian war, a petty taxing of the smaller Greek polises to allow it`s citizens to attend to the matters of the state (instead of working all day themselves) a denial of the merits of Athenian democracy, literature and culture as well...?

stalkervision
10-04-2007, 04:12 PM
I believe anyone that brings real information to any argument in the forum should be praised and not set appon like an escaped criminal because that information doesn't comply and suppport their own particular beliefs..

"fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt"

-HH-Quazi
10-04-2007, 04:59 PM
I am sorry some of you guys feel that the moderators here do not do a good job. I can tell you all that I spent at least three to six hours a day looking after the Community Help forum and coming here and reading as much as I can. I do however miss allot even with the time spent. So if ever any of you feel a thread has gone overboard, or if someone is personally attacking you in a post, please feel free to either report the post\thread, or better yet send a PM to one of the mods, myself included. I know I can't catch everything. And I am sure this goes for BC & the other active mods here. So your help in bringing these things to our attention would be helpful.

As far as this place being called a zoo? Not hardly imo. It has been mentioned in an earlier post. The majority here are from an older generation. Grown men. And I for one give grown men the freedom to do just that, discuss, even if there is a hint of an argument getting started. 9 times out of 10 what looked to be the starting of an argument turns out to be only a discussion, a little heated in the middle, but in the end an agreement to disagree. I have frequented other forums, the ones already mentioned. One word, dead. There's no life to any of them. But this place, it lives. And if because of that it is called a zoo by others, or even you guys, then so be it.

But at the same time, if someone goes overboard with personal attacks, or if a thread is heading or is already in that direction and you think nothing is being done about it, please bring it to our attention. Like I said earlier, I spend allot of time trying to be a good moderator, but there are some posts that I just flat out miss. So, if you are willing, your help would be appreciated.

ElAurens
10-04-2007, 05:17 PM
First let me say that I appreciate the very thankless work of the mods. How you guys stay as even handed as you do is beyond me.

But it's a Zoo.

If you don't think so I'll prove it by typing 3 little characters.

P51


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

carguy_
10-04-2007, 05:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
P51
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uberplane.

ElAurens
10-04-2007, 05:33 PM
That didn't take long.

Case closed.

triad773
10-04-2007, 05:37 PM
Yeah Zoo reference isn't entirely negative at all.

Just means sometimes there are pretty wild things going on here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I think the Mods do a great job considering the volume they have to deal with. With the personalities at play on the board, sometimes I can imagine it's hard to decide where to draw the line, but they always do when needed. Mods being baited, well who needs that stuff? Fun is fun- it aught to be left at that. When things get heated and/or people are taking themselves (or others)too seriously, any Mod I have PM'd has reacted pretty promptly and squared things away in short order.

Yeah calling it a Zoo is no reflection on any of the staff-- they are they dudes with the whip, chair and revolver http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

han freak solo
10-04-2007, 05:49 PM
This place ain't near the zoo it once was.

2005-2006 was it's peak in "zooness" if I had to guess.

heywooood
10-04-2007, 05:54 PM
its a lively place - and since we are alive - shouldn't that be a good thing?


I think the mods here do a good job, its not a great job to have so the fact that these guys are willing to do it is enough.

I can be rude sometimes - I don't complain though - and I don't explain ever...but I do apologise and last night I was a little rude to BC on the 1c...so for that I apologise, all I meant was that it seemed you (BC) were attempting to moderate a forum that you are not responsible for and I really wanted to see what their mods were like...

We found out - they are fairly tolerant of the tolerable and ready to close off a thread at the least nonsensical posting.... a bit stale - but it is their forum...just as this one is UBI's

I think it will be good to have both...but don't expect the leopards to change their spots...

new most windy poster? bigbossbalone...hows your umbrage lil feller?

Bearcat99
10-04-2007, 06:00 PM
I am just too tired to even go through all the quotes and BS in this thread...

It was a simple frickin question... and it got all twisted.. by the usual childish BS.

A Zoo? No I still don't think it is a Zoo.. I think there are some people who post here who need to GROW UP. I can't believe that some of you guys are adults because you act like my 10 year old son and some of his friends.. ... baiting each other , pushing buttons and whining and crying like a bunch of 4th graders... Platypus.. why on Earth would you feel sorry for me...? Save your pity for some of those grown boys who have an affinity for Peter Pan.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Yeah calling it a Zoo is no reflection on any of the staff-- they are they dudes with the whip, chair and revolver. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Triad.. I like that analogy...

BfHeFwMe
10-04-2007, 06:07 PM
Goodbye Zoo, gone to the new forum.

Find some other critter to put in my cage, would ya? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

knightflyte
10-04-2007, 06:13 PM
Firstly. I respect and appreciate all the moderators here. I think they are as fair as they can be. No ones perfect. Thanks for all the time you spend babysitting his place.

I know you're not looking for backslapping, Bear. But dayum!!!!! FIVE YEARS. Tempus Fugit.

I occasionally call this place the zoo. I kind of take at it as a badge of honour. Despite some of the backbiting and political name calling this IS a very informative, helpful, intelligent group. Some won't look past that and look at UBI forums as a dirty paddock with wild animals. Their loss.

As often as we have an 11 page debate about Shavs, or the turn radious of a certain craft we just as often have a multi page thread helping a newbie with their joystick/graphics card/IL2 setup.

Times when I am put off by bad behaviour I take a short break.



Another thing, Bear. You HAVE to read every post and topic. I don't. So you get a chance to see more of the good in this site.

It's a good place, but yeah, it can be a zoo. Look how far this thread has gotten off topic.

Korolov1986
10-04-2007, 06:13 PM
CrazyIvan became Ivan the Terrible,
he beat the living &$^#* out of Korolov
(Hey, that's me!)

Megile retrieved a box of dynamite,
Kurfurst lit the fuse,
and LEXX_Luthor turned Xioblau3 into a muse

ElAurens ponied carguy_,
Bearcat99 banned leitmotiv,
SeaFireIV made a cartoon out of luftluuver

LEBillfish has the hots for Blutarski2004,
and here ends the song,
cuz I'm outta breath and fly_zo's sig has me completely divided.
Apologies for those left out of my little song!

...

(More fuel to the fire! Flame on!)

SkyChimp
10-04-2007, 06:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
But it's a Zoo.

If you don't think so I'll prove it by typing 3 little characters.

P51

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not enough. Try this....

The P-51 was formed by the hand of God. The Bf-109 was formed by his rectum.

Now that's how you start a flame war http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bearcat99
10-04-2007, 06:39 PM
Hey there SC... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

heywooood
10-04-2007, 06:41 PM
and with that...its a zoo - gotta love the primate exhibit - thanks chimpy hahaha

SkyChimp
10-04-2007, 06:43 PM
Howdy!

bigbossmalone
10-04-2007, 07:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:

new most windy poster? bigbossbalone...hows your umbrage lil feller? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

heywooood, I'm really impressed that you found it within yourself for that apology to BC - perhaps bought about by my comment on that?
Either way, well done on managing to show a bit of humility, man. Thing is, few of us here really know each other, and as life tends to go, we might find that those of us we think we don't like here, we might actually like in RL, and vice versa. Maybe you got my PM from a while back, and thought it was beneath you to reply, but it pretty much stated the way I feel - so this time I'll do it in the open. You come across most times as a pretty decent fella, but then sometimes lose it badly. But maybe thats part of what makes us human, we all have bad days. So do I, for sure. So, in the open then, a peace offering to you and one or two others who don't seem too happy with some of my posts. I've never personally started an attack on anyone here, yet some feel they owe it to themselves to attack me/others. Can't we just get over all the BS and discuss things like adults without getting personal? Even the differences?
I don't mind losing an argument, I am prepared to apologise if I think I should. In life as in virtual land. I'm not about to commit hara-kiri if I feel I've 'lost face'. I think I'm pretty well-balanced and open about things.
What is your take on my approach, then? Should I become like others, and attack those that I don't agree with?
Give it to me straight, man. I assure you I can take it. What don't you like? Maybe I can change, maybe not, but it seems pointless when the people who differ with me don't have the nads to be straight about it.
Would you like me to leave? I can assure you, over the last few weeks, I've been giving it serious thought...
Thing is, I've also made many friends over here, and in a country that has serious day-to-day problems like mine does, that counts a lot to me. But I can do without the BS - really.
'I don't believe the Devil,
I don't believe his book,
but the truth is not the same
without the lies that he wrote.
I don't believe that rock 'n roll
can really change the world
as it spins in revolution,
it spirals, and it turns
I, I believe in love' - Bono

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

heywooood
10-04-2007, 07:31 PM
BBM - don't give yourself too much credit - I posted an apology to BC here on these boards because I thought I was rude. He may not have thought so but in hindsight I did...as to what you thought...

also - I seldom reply or even look at PT's - say what you have to say out here or don't say - its already too anonymously personal in these forum thingers innit? (without getting even closer and more personal with folks I never met) just IMO...so don't take my lack of reply to a PT personally is what I'm saying

and last - I don't really get bent over this stuff or carry grudges...what would be the point of that? ...If I say something like lighten up lil feller or whatever - its always meant in the best possible way... I am not sitting here stewing for a fight...just poking y'all with a stick to see if you are awake...just like a few others are doing.
Its s'posed to be relatively friendly and generally harmless.

all of this back and forth over something so innocuous as my hamfisted indication to BC that he had his UBI moderator hat on in the 1c forums is a little tedious... lets all move on.

SkyChimp
10-04-2007, 07:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
BTW, I wouldnt particularly want to see Kurfy banned, he does post some good info on the Bf109 sometimes, as long as you take into account that its heavily weighted in favour of the Bf109.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed.

Kurfurst and I, and especially Kurfurst and Hop2002 (is he still around?) have gotten into it time and time again in the past. Too often, the arguments got deeply personal. But from a technical standpoint, Kurfurst has posted some of the most enlightening and useful information ever on this board about German aircraft in general, and the Bf-109 in particular.

Kurfurst isn't German, he's Hungarian. I've questioned his moral direction as well. It took a long time to realize that his character was far less questionable than I had suspected. Once one realizes that "German" does not equate to "Nazi," and that the excellent engineering of German aircraft transcends the malignancy of the regime that required them, his arguments become far more palatable.

SeaFireLIV
10-04-2007, 07:43 PM
Spite. Some screwed up guys just couldn`t help getting a kick out of putting the `zoo` back in Ubi again. Have your mighty young fun, kids.

heywooood
10-04-2007, 07:52 PM
nice - and thats when the zoo is at tits best...errm its best....

DrHerb
10-04-2007, 08:36 PM
Bearcat, I think your question has been answered in the last 6 pages http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Bearcat99
10-04-2007, 09:14 PM
Hey BBM I just saw your PM @ 1C I replied... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Oh and Heywood...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:
...but I do apologise and last night I was a little rude to BC on the 1c...so for that I apologise, all I meant was that it seemed you (BC) were attempting to moderate a forum that you are not responsible for and I really wanted to see what their mods were like...
We found out - they are fairly tolerant of the tolerable and ready to close off a thread at the least nonsensical posting.... a bit stale - but it is their forum...just as this one is UBI's
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apology accepted... but I wasn't trying to moderate... you can't do that without the power.. I was just a forum member stating a case that needed to be stated.. and if more people did that over here then perhaps some of the things that make people call this place a Zoo would be less evident, instead many of us either feed the flames or bait and antagonize each other at every opportunity, directly and indirectly, for no other reason than boredom or just to shake the tree and see what falls...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif

Monterey13
10-04-2007, 09:19 PM
I think this post is missing one thing...........



http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i274/13thAFMonterey/1.jpg



Sorry BC...couldn't resist. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

stalkervision
10-04-2007, 09:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Monterey13:
I think this post is missing one thing...........



http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i274/13thAFMonterey/1.jpg



Sorry BC...couldn't resist. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a bad idea at all.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif I propose that any really serious discussion have the requirement that every third post include a picture of scantly clad women as a distraction. One can hardly look at these women and be mad anymore at anybody can one. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If this appear to be "sexist" to some a good alternative IMO would be flatulance postings from you tube including both men and women..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6dm9rN6oTs&mode=related&search=


see don't you feel much less angry and better already! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The UN should try this! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

heywooood
10-04-2007, 10:14 PM
mmmm...really love those peaches wanna shake that tree...

msalama
10-04-2007, 10:51 PM
This a zoo? Well the general asshattery does indeed get out of hand occasionally, that's true - but then again this is also a very helpful community towards newcomers, so...

Dunno. Kinda evens out in the end IMHO. Ain't any worse than some other boards I've frequented at any rate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

leitmotiv
10-04-2007, 11:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SkyChimp:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
BTW, I wouldnt particularly want to see Kurfy banned, he does post some good info on the Bf109 sometimes, as long as you take into account that its heavily weighted in favour of the Bf109.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed.

Kurfurst and I, and especially Kurfurst and Hop2002 (is he still around?) have gotten into it time and time again in the past. Too often, the arguments got deeply personal. But from a technical standpoint, Kurfurst has posted some of the most enlightening and useful information ever on this board about German aircraft in general, and the Bf-109 in particular.

Kurfurst isn't German, he's Hungarian. I've questioned his moral direction as well. It took a long time to realize that his character was far less questionable than I had suspected. Once one realizes that "German" does not equate to "Nazi," and that the excellent engineering of German aircraft transcends the malignancy of the regime that required them, his arguments become far more palatable. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SkyChimp has just won the entirely unofficial, once only, GD Forum award for most superhumanly decent poster---he must be hitting Lithium real hard to attain this level of civility re K! Congratulations. Your award, a huge bunch of bananas, is in the mail!

bigbossmalone
10-05-2007, 01:30 AM
Great!
I feel loads better about the state of affairs now! Moving on...
Yay! It's beginning to feel like one big, happy, dysfunctional family here again.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

F19_Orheim
10-05-2007, 02:56 AM
In my humbleview this is a zoo.... a lot of noise. That does not mean I don't like to come here - zoos can be entertaining sometimes.

I also would like to say that the whole purpose of this forum should be (and have been, even stressed by the mods frequently) that of a forum designated for flightsims, aviation and topics related to these.

To be honest I am quite sick of this place beeing a playground for a few. I have realized that this will never change (unless some mods live by their rules and stay to topic themselves), so now I go into this place expecting nothing else than just an ordinary forum where you can pretty much post about everything.

I realize that my wish how this forum should be is very much personal and is not shared by everyone, therefor I have resigned and take it for what it is - a playgound for a few, a source of relevant information for many from time to time, and a place to go to when you are bored.

If I want to go to a more serious place which is actually focused on above mentioned topics, I go elsewhere.

So, I say yes, a zoo, but also a playground for a few

PS I am positively surpised to see only a few number of OT's on the first page this morning. Well done gentlemen, there is hope

Bewolf
10-05-2007, 03:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
BTW, I wouldnt particularly want to see Kurfy banned, he does post some good info on the Bf109 sometimes, as long as you take into account that its heavily weighted in favour of the Bf109.

With all the history channel SPitfire/P51 'fanboyness', its good to have some bf109 'fanboyness' too, to balance things out.

Just remember that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I do hate his anti-British rants/posts however (I am English), and the fact that he often compares the Democracies to the Fascists and actually believes that the Democracies are as bad (!).

The fact that this is a 'Zoo' is a good thing IMO. Lots of opinions and all sorts of characters.

Just my thoughts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is you come from a country that made it a fashion to diss anything related to germans/nazis, equalling them, and beeing obsessed with it to a huge degree. Gross overgeneralisation and probably injustice to a lot of people? Yep. The impression on this board remains, though, even at risk of beeing accused of racism once again (some really like to throw that around). Critique from these parts of the continent which some of you people so love to point fingers at sets in motion some kind automatic defense mechanism, as it seems. I would not say that if it was only you, but quite a few british on this board were going over the top within this topic, throwing around the "nazi" word quite a bit, feeling beeing equalled with the Nazi regime in general, when in fact they were not. Just because it was the Nazis, not everything had to be more "evil" by very principle. This demonizing is fine in times of trouble or with the danger of facism having any risk of raising again. But I do not see that, at least not with the countries involved here. What I see is a raising ability to have a more objective, less clouded and propagandistic view on the happenings back then, which after more then 60 years is due. I see the dangers of such findings beeing abused by those with a brown political agenda, but I yet have to see that "here". This is in no way an apology or a lack of responsebility towards the conditions in those times, but simply a look back at it without personal emotions doing the judging.
That is the whole point. Nobody ever said the british were "worse". The opposite is the truth. Without the british holding out, I'd not sit here and type what I type right now, cuz I probably lived in a cruel dictatorship censoring anything and everything. And I am pretty sure Kurfürst realizes that as well. I know a Nazi when I see/read one. K. does not belong to that, no matter the personal sentiments. But the anglo saxons (btw, I just use this term to throw british and americans together, as they share similiar cultural attitudes in this regard, at least the vocal ones on this board from whom I got that general impression) "appearantly" are not able to take critique very well. Democracy is the best form of government I can imagine, but it is far from perfect, and even democratic countries are sometimes capable of terrible and/or immoral acts. Just because others did worse stuff, that does not mean it makes these acts any better. That is the sole and unique point that obviously did not come across yet.

Sometimes the end justifies the means. But one always has to carry the consequences. Admitting these is not a sign of weakness, but of greatness. Also, democries do not define themselves over comparisons to dictatorships, but to their own standarts. That is one of their greatest strenghs and achivements. Some still have to learn that. And as long that is not happening, I personally see no reason whatsoever to accept any blames from such individuals, if they are not even capable to carry their own, far less demanding backgrounds.

Just my personal views and conclusions out of this topic, to be taken with a grain of salt and without saying above is "fact".
I am happily willing to be proven wrong.

P.S. Sorry for highjacking this thread, bearcat, but this may be a good opportunity to disarm some potential future bombs and talk about such subjects without personal insults.

JG4_Helofly
10-05-2007, 03:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
BTW, I wouldnt particularly want to see Kurfy banned, he does post some good info on the Bf109 sometimes, as long as you take into account that its heavily weighted in favour of the Bf109.

With all the history channel SPitfire/P51 'fanboyness', its good to have some bf109 'fanboyness' too, to balance things out.

Just remember that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

I do hate his anti-British rants/posts however (I am English), and the fact that he often compares the Democracies to the Fascists and actually believes that the Democracies are as bad (!).

The fact that this is a 'Zoo' is a good thing IMO. Lots of opinions and all sorts of characters.

Just my thoughts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is you come from a country that made it a fashion to diss anything related to germans/nazis, equalling them, and beeing obsessed with it to a huge degree. Gross overgeneralisation and probably injustice to a lot of people? Yep. The impression on this board remains, though, even at risk of beeing accused of racism once again (some really like to throw that around). Critique from these parts of the continent which some of you people so love to point fingers at sets in motion some kind automatic defense mechanism, as it seems. I would not say that if it was only you, but quite a few british on this board were going over the top within this topic, throwing around the "nazi" word quite a bit, feeling beeing equalled with the Nazi regime in general, when in fact they were not. Just because it was the Nazis, not everything had to be more "evil" by very principle. This demonizing is fine in times of trouble or with the danger of facism having any risk of raising again. But I do not see that, at least not with the countries involved here. What I see is a raising ability to have a more objective, less clouded and propagandistic view on the happenings back then, which after more then 60 years is due. I see the dangers of such findings beeing abused by those with a brown political agenda, but I yet have to see that "here". This is in no way an apology or a lack of responsebility towards the conditions in those times, but simply a look back at it without personal emotions doing the judging.
That is the whole point. Nobody ever said the english were "worse". The opposite is the truth. Without the english holding out, I'd not sit here and type what I type right now, cuz I probably lived in a cruel dictatorship censoring anything and everything. And I am pretty sure Kurfürst realizes that as well. I know a Nazi when I see/read one. K. does not belong to that, no matter the personal sentiments. But the anglo saxons (btw, I just use this term to throw english and americans together, as they share similiar cultural attitudes in this regard, at least the vocal ones on this board) "appearantly" are not able to take critique very well. Democracy is the best form of government I can imagine, but it is far from perfect, and even democratic countries are sometimes capable of terrible and/or immoral acts. Just because others did worse stuff, that does not mean it makes these acts any better. That is the sole and unique point that obviously did not come across yet.

Sometimes the end justifies the means. But one always has to carry the consequences. Admitting these is not a sign of weakness, but of greatness. Also, democries do not define themselves over comparisons to dictatorships, but to their own standarts. That is one of their greatest strenghs and achivements. Some still have to learn that. And as long that is not happening, I personally see no reason whatsoever to accept any blames from such individuals, if they are not even capable to carry their own, far less demanding backgrounds.

Just my personal views and conclusions out of this topic, to be taken with a grain of salt and without saying above is "fact".
I am happily willing to be proven wrong.

P.S. Sorry for highjacking this thread, bearcat, but this may be a good opportunity to disarm some potential future bombs and talk about such subjects without personal insults. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow! Post of the year http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Kurfurst__
10-05-2007, 04:15 AM
As usual, the fair prize price goes over the Skychimp. Hey 'chimp, we could use fine individuals like you over my forum. You`d be more than welcome there.

S!

MEGILE
10-05-2007, 04:17 AM
If it wasn't for pictures of naked women, I wouldn't go on the internet.

Bearcat99
10-05-2007, 05:32 AM
As a side note too on the whole moderating of these boards thing that so many folks seem to key in on.... with the issue of banning.... very often it works like this... Joblo makes a bad post.. he gets a warning.. he does it again... he gets a 3 day ban.... 45 minutes later he is back on the boards as Joblo_ ... well being a moderator and knowing that you banned the guy, naturally you can't have him basically flipping you off on the boards... so you ban Joblo_ but this time you make a note to yourself.. it's a week.... 30 minutes later the guy is back as Joblo__ ....... so then you get really pissed.... and you just delete his account.... then he signs back up as Joblo___.... See where I am going with this?

Multiply that by a factor of 10... (This has actually happened to me on more than one occasion and only in one case was the guy man enough to come back to state his case and then take his ban like a man..)and add to that a personal life, a job, wanting to do your own thing with the sim, since that is the crux of what all this is about.. the sim.... and it becomes a thing where given the sheer size of this community it becomes a daunting task. Add to that the fact that many of the posters who are "problem children" do get banned regularly.... and they still antagonize one another making references in their sigs to each other, some times cloaked... but enough so that the intended victim knows he is being taunted and it just goes on and on... Or when a new guy comes on board and says... "I cant get the wheels up on my F-4, or the sight on my 109, or my 50s are weak... etc.." all the usual well hashed beefs... Even if [i]one[i/] person says.... "RTFM" because "He's just a troll..." then .. that's a smack to all of us, and not only that but so what if he is a troll and why do people do that in the first place..?

The bottom line is that mods can only do but so much.. especially in a community this size.... much of what goes on here is directly influenced by us and what we are willing to tolerate from each other... or not. I think that this community is over all one of the best, most well informed across multiple levels out here. When good people decide to stay away because of the handful of people who drag it down.... it only brings things down even farther... but overall this is not a Zoo and certainly no where near what it used to be. I guess the thing that gets me with the term is that usually when people use it it is in a context that is not very flattering... and I just think this place isn't all that bad and if some of the boys here would just man up.... and think before they post... it would be different.

leitmotiv
10-05-2007, 05:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
If it wasn't for pictures of naked women, I wouldn't go on the internet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Megile is a friend of mankind. May those who zotz cheerleader threads be shunned by pulchritude until their dying days.

madsarmy
10-05-2007, 05:40 AM
It's the same people over & over again who turn these boards to senseless drivel.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/tommybomb/drivel.jpg?t=1191584408

DKoor
10-05-2007, 06:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
If it wasn't for pictures of naked women, I wouldn't go on the internet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gifas always, bringing you the best raw truth in the whole.....net.

BSS_AIJO
10-05-2007, 06:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
This a zoo? Well the general asshattery does indeed get out of hand occasionally, that's true - but then again this is also a very helpful community towards newcomers, so...

Dunno. Kinda evens out in the end IMHO. Ain't any worse than some other boards I've frequented at any rate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are a zoo, not lord of the flies, or a state prison. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

personally, yea this is a zoo but its our zoo and we should be glad its here.

BSS_AIJO

Xiolablu3
10-05-2007, 07:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:


The problem is you come from a country that made it a fashion to diss anything related to germans/nazis, equalling them, and beeing obsessed with it to a huge degree. Gross overgeneralisation and probably injustice to a lot of people? Yep. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have an old German chap called Theo who lives down the road from me, he has a heavy German accent in his English, and I fixed his computer the other day.

Not once in my head did I ever equate him with the 2nd world war, Nazis, fighting -anything like that. However while on my way to his house I talked to an old woman who I told where I was going. She covered her mouth and whispered 'He's German you know..' as though he was some kind of threat, Which I found incredibly amusing and so outdated, but then remmebered what Generation she was from, her Generation had been bombed by his Generation and she had been scared to death by the threat of the 'naughty Germans' invading her country in her Childhood.

I agree at things like football matches, 'lets boo the naughty Germans from WW2' attitude is lame, but I am quite sure that 99% of that crowd would be hospitable and polite to any German he meets.

Also on German/Nazi jokes, WW2 DID happen, and the Nazi DID do some very bad things. So you must realise, as you may think that Britian and the US are 'obsessed with Germans/Nazis, it may seem that way because in Germany a real attempt is made to 'forget' these horrers and move on, where as in other countries they are extremely glad they won, and want to remember.

Therefore we have one side which wants to forget, and groans at the other side bringing it up all the time, and another side which badly wants to remember what happened, and uses any excuse to commemorate it.

LIke I said, it was one of the most significant periods of history, and one of the things Germany is still most remembered for, so it wont be forgotten in the long run. There will be jokes about it, historians recounting it, German football teams booed, for years to come. But dont blame the historians/comedians/Football fans, blame the Nazis/Axis who created the horrors, invaded the countries. It DID happen, and the Allied side wants to remmeber it happened, whereas the Germans understandably want to forget...

However, I am sure time will heal this...

Freelancer-1
10-05-2007, 08:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

However, I am sure time will heal this...

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL!!

People are still fighting over the Jesus incident and thats been two thousand years!

Time heals nothing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Pirschjaeger
10-05-2007, 08:22 AM
This thread is really wierd.

"Ubizoo" has never had a negative meaning to me. I to call it ubizoo but that's simple because it's related to ubisoft and just like a zoo, we have quite a variety of personalities and sometimes even species (just look a the nicks).

But, since my next point is relative to this thread, I'd like to know why Kurfurst always gets shat on? The jealousy and negativity displays by the anti-Kurfs is a bit ridiculous and childish at best. I don't read all his stuff but what I have read was a lot more useful then what many post here.

Whether you agree with Kurfy or not, give the man some credit for his obvious hours of study, which he is more than willing to share, and the fact that he not only stands up for what he thinks is right, but also offers information to back it up.

And just because he likes the 109 doesn't mean anything besides the fact that he likes the 109. Get over it. People who polarize others based on likes or dislikes are simply ignorant.

I don't agree with XioLaBlu's post but that doesn't mean I can't continue to like him.

As a resident of ubizoo, I agree with SkyChimp, even if he is another species. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Blutarski2004
10-05-2007, 08:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freelancer-1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

However, I am sure time will heal this...

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL!!

People are still fighting over the Jesus incident and thats been two thousand years!

Time heals nothing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... I think that time DOES heal. When was the last time a Jew was burned at the stake???

Blutarski2004
10-05-2007, 08:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
This thread is really wierd.

"Ubizoo" has never had a negative meaning to me. I to call it ubizoo but that's simple because it's related to ubisoft and just like a zoo, we have quite a variety of personalities and sometimes even species (just look a the nicks).

But, since my next point is relative to this thread, I'd like to know why Kurfurst always gets shat on? The jealousy and negativity displays by the anti-Kurfs is a bit ridiculous and childish at best. I don't read all his stuff but what I have read was a lot more useful then what many post here.

Whether you agree with Kurfy or not, give the man some credit for his obvious hours of study, which he is more than willing to share, and the fact that he not only stands up for what he thinks is right, but also offers information to back it up.

And just because he likes the 109 doesn't mean anything besides the fact that he likes the 109. Get over it. People who polarize others based on likes or dislikes are simply ignorant.

I don't agree with XioLaBlu's post but that doesn't mean I can't continue to like him.

As a resident of ubizoo, I agree with SkyChimp, even if he is another species. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... I think it's not so much a matter of content as manner.

Pirschjaeger
10-05-2007, 08:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
..... I think it's not so much a matter of content as manner. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

His imperfections are indicative of his species.

He's human.

Bewolf
10-05-2007, 08:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

I have an old German chap called Theo who lives down the road from me, he has a heavy German accent in his English, and I fixed his computer the other day.

Not once in my head did I ever equate him with the 2nd world war, Nazis, fighting -anything like that. However while on my way to his house I talked to an old woman who I told where I was going. She covered her mouth and whispered 'He's German you know..' as though he was some kind of threat, Which I found incredibly amusing and so outdated, but then remmebered what Generation she was from, her Generation had been bombed by his Generation and she had been scared to death by the threat of the 'naughty Germans' invading her country in her Childhood. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting. We got that favor plenty back, neverthelss over here you won't get those kinda comments, even by old timers.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I agree at things like football matches, 'lets boo the naughty Germans from WW2' attitude is lame, but I am quite sure that 99% of that crowd would be hospitable and polite to any German he meets.

Also on German/Nazi jokes, WW2 DID happen, and the Nazi DID do some very bad things. So you must realise, as you may think that Britian and the US are 'obsessed with Germans/Nazis, it may seem that way because in Germany a real attempt is made to 'forget' these horrers and move on, where as in other countries they are extremely glad they won, and want to remember.

Therefore we have one side which wants to forget, and groans at the other side bringing it up all the time, and another side which badly wants to remember what happened, and uses any excuse to commemorate it.

LIke I said, it was one of the most significant periods of history, and one of the things Germany is still most remembered for, so it wont be forgotten in the long run. There will be jokes about it, historians recounting it, German football teams booed, for years to come. But dont blame the historians/comedians/Football fans, blame the Nazis/Axis who created the horrors, invaded the countries. It DID happen, and the Allied side wants to remmeber it happened, whereas the Germans understandably want to forget...

However, I am sure time will heal this... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We had that topic once, Xio, and I think we came to a settlement. In this case it was just a background explanetion to what happens "here", with the ppl "here" and the way they act. I was referring to british who get bend out of shape and throwing the Nazi accusations around like other people popcorn as soon others don't immidiatly hush when it is about allied aircraft building arrogance or the simple fact that no nation kept its innocense before/during and after WW2.

Just, let me get at that "forgetting" argument you bring up, something I heared from other sides as well. Obviously by people that never ever have been here at all and have zero idea about modern german society other what their grandparents or the tabloids told them.

You know, in Germany, there usually is a "yes, we had the Holocaust, we are responsible."
Children get to learn that nearly every year in school again, with different priorities. Everybody who really paid attention here knows exactly how the Nazi party came to power, by what means and dates. They are aware of the political and economical situation and are taught to recognize this and not to fall to politians promising everybody everything. They know what a democracy is compromised of, its weaknesses and how to stop extremists exploiting these should the danger ever arise again. They even know the pros and cons of different election systems used in democracies. They know the numbers of people killed and at least one trip to a former concentration camp is mandatory to learn what really happend back then. In my history class we even had a discussions about "Hitler's Willing Executioners" from Daniel Goldhagen. You may want to google that up.
Movies about this time here never were, and never are in any way heroizing this time period. War in general is "extremly" unpopular over here, as should have been become clear during the whole Afghanistan and Iraq discussion.
So please don't tell me anything about "forgetting". I doubt any people in the world is as aware of what it did to a degree as we are and keeps this remembering up. The very word "Nazi", when thrown at someone else, is possible the greatest and most personal offense you can give, often exploited as a "beat to death" argument when nothing productive is left to say, and the same way percieved here. Germany paid around 60 billion of compensations. By far not enough to make up for the extreme suffering, but we at least tried to compensate with the only means we had, and do so to this very day.

In Britain, there always is a "but" involved. "Yeah, we did terrible things in the colonies BUT we brought civilisation around. Yeah, terror bombing maybe was not so nice BUT it was for a good cause!" By far not as terrible as compared to what Germany did to the jews, the gypsies, the disabled, socialists, communists, to the slavs, but even this always is followed by a "but". Every country formed its legends after WW2. In France, after the war everybody was in the resistance suddenly. Same in the Netherlands and in Denmark. Austria was just a victim as well.

Go figure. And those very same ppl then point fingers nowadays? Sorry, no. And this attitude is spreading. Ppl get sick about the constant rants by others who don't even manage to get their own doorsteps clean. I am aware how arrogant that must appear to some folks reading this, espcially in light of all the sacrifices their forefathers gave. Kid you not, I immensly respect those soldiers that gave their life in their fight against Germany for their believes in freedom and democracy. I am utterly thankful, and so is the vast majority here. But their ancestors today abuse those mens sacrifice to gain political or morale gain even in such meaningless discussions as aircraft stats. Not cool.

Sturm_Williger
10-05-2007, 08:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
..... I think it's not so much a matter of content as manner. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are a few others with a very similar manner and they don't provoke anything like the attacks that Kurfurst receives.

Anyway, I agree with Pirschjaeger - we're all human and should perhaps take a moment before launching a diatribe based solely on the poster and not the posted content.

msalama
10-05-2007, 08:52 AM
Well, we certainly get all kinds of personalities here and consequently the proceedings do indeed get a bit rowdy every now and then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But I really don't think that's a biggie, because after all is said and done this still remains a lively - and thus interesting - place, smacktardmisms and all!

Yet there're some individuals here whose conduct I just cannot understand, namely those who badmouth the place on other boards and then come back here and c**p all over the threads, thus making sure that the place really lives up to its negative reputation... Now what's the motive for this I wonder?

And yeah yeah yeah, I'm no-one to say really because my own personal conduct has indeed left a wee something to be desired every now then as well... still thought to point this out though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Pirschjaeger
10-05-2007, 09:32 AM
A couple months ago I was asked to moderate a forum. I agreed just for the experience. It didn't take me long to quit. I really hadn't realized how low people can actually go.

I see this forum (ubizoo) as a very peaceful place inhabited by a pretty good bunch. Compared with the forum I briefly moderated, this one is a "cake walk".

I guess that's why I've been here over 5 years now.

Fritz

stalkervision
10-05-2007, 09:44 AM
I really don't see this as "a zoo". I really am not sure how to classify these forums. The closest I have found to explaining forums in general is this... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

Blutarski2004
10-05-2007, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
..... I think it's not so much a matter of content as manner. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

His imperfections are indicative of his species.

He's human. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... True, but we humans are the same species who have conceived and recognize the concept of civility. Disagreement and debate are fine. It's the devolution into personal insult and rancorous demeanor that puts me off, no matter who the source might be.

JZG_Thiem
10-05-2007, 12:23 PM
Bewolf, you know this is funny. When i read Xios post i thought EXACTLY the same: "how the h3ll does he come to think that in Germany all we try to do is forget about WWII and what our fathers did?". Like you said, quite the opposite is the case, and you dont have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out once you are in Germany.

for the rest of your post, all i can say is a friggen : A M E N http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Xio, you said " ...theres one side which wants to forget". Im sorry, but this sounds so ridiculous facing facts like

1) if you paint a swastika on the wall in Germany, you can be sent to jail or at least get fined. Recently someone was being dragged to court because he sold T-shirts with the swastika and a red circle crossing it saying "Nazis suck", THATS how much we try to forget. In Duxford i saw a Buecker Jungmann with a swastika on its tailplane flying around and noone cared.

2) in germany not one single copy of "mein Kampf" has been printed since 1945, yet i can order one with a few mouseklicks form Denmark or Sewden or wherever. Flags of the 3rd Reich and other assorted stuff is also only a few mouseclicks away, but not a single one from Germany. Where are those Iron crosses n stuff remade? Not in germany afaik, but i can give you a link to eastern europe, where you can order all this stuff.

3) Its still forbidden in germany to sing the two first paragraphs of the national anthem, not because they were written by Nazis or even with sinilar intentions (the anthem was written in the middle of the 19th century), but because of germany trying to be sensible about this matter after WWII.

Imho theres a difference between "trying to forget" and "trying to eliminate".

Blutarski2004
10-05-2007, 12:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JZG_Thiem:
Bewolf, you know this is funny. When i read Xios post i thought EXACTLY the same: "how the h3ll does he come to think that in Germany all we try to do is forget about WWII and what our fathers did?". Like you said, quite the opposite is the case, and you dont have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out once you are in Germany.

for the rest of your post, all i can say is a friggen : A M E N http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Xio, you said " ...theres one side which wants to forget". Im sorry, but this sounds so ridiculous facing facts like

1) if you paint a swastika on the wall in Germany, you can be sent to jail or at least get fined. Recently someone was being dragged to court because he sold T-shirts with the swastika and a red circle crossing it saying "Nazis suck", THATS how much we try to forget. In Duxford i saw a Buecker Jungmann with a swastika on its tailplane flying around and noone cared.

2) in germany not one single copy of "mein Kampf" has been printed since 1945, yet i can order one with a few mouseklicks form Denmark or Sewden or wherever. Flags of the 3rd Reich and other assorted stuff is also only a few mouseclicks away, but not a single one from Germany. Where are those Iron crosses n stuff remade? Not in germany afaik, but i can give you a link to eastern europe, where you can order all this stuff.

3) Its still forbidden in germany to sing the two first paragraphs of the national anthem, not because they were written by Nazis or even with sinilar intentions (the anthem was written in the middle of the 19th century), but because of germany trying to be sensible about this matter after WWII.

Imho theres a difference between "trying to forget" and "trying to eliminate". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... I must admit that I was quite surprised when I first saw photos of Russian WW2 re-enactors marching around in German uniforms.

HuninMunin
10-05-2007, 01:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

I have an old German chap called Theo who lives down the road from me, he has a heavy German accent in his English, and I fixed his computer the other day.

Not once in my head did I ever equate him with the 2nd world war, Nazis, fighting -anything like that. However while on my way to his house I talked to an old woman who I told where I was going. She covered her mouth and whispered 'He's German you know..' as though he was some kind of threat, Which I found incredibly amusing and so outdated, but then remmebered what Generation she was from, her Generation had been bombed by his Generation and she had been scared to death by the threat of the 'naughty Germans' invading her country in her Childhood. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting. We got that favor plenty back, neverthelss over here you won't get those kinda comments, even by old timers.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I agree at things like football matches, 'lets boo the naughty Germans from WW2' attitude is lame, but I am quite sure that 99% of that crowd would be hospitable and polite to any German he meets.

Also on German/Nazi jokes, WW2 DID happen, and the Nazi DID do some very bad things. So you must realise, as you may think that Britian and the US are 'obsessed with Germans/Nazis, it may seem that way because in Germany a real attempt is made to 'forget' these horrers and move on, where as in other countries they are extremely glad they won, and want to remember.

Therefore we have one side which wants to forget, and groans at the other side bringing it up all the time, and another side which badly wants to remember what happened, and uses any excuse to commemorate it.

LIke I said, it was one of the most significant periods of history, and one of the things Germany is still most remembered for, so it wont be forgotten in the long run. There will be jokes about it, historians recounting it, German football teams booed, for years to come. But dont blame the historians/comedians/Football fans, blame the Nazis/Axis who created the horrors, invaded the countries. It DID happen, and the Allied side wants to remmeber it happened, whereas the Germans understandably want to forget...

However, I am sure time will heal this... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We had that topic once, Xio, and I think we came to a settlement. In this case it was just a background explanetion to what happens "here", with the ppl "here" and the way they act. I was referring to british who get bend out of shape and throwing the Nazi accusations around like other people popcorn as soon others don't immidiatly hush when it is about allied aircraft building arrogance or the simple fact that no nation kept its innocense before/during and after WW2.

Just, let me get at that "forgetting" argument you bring up, something I heared from other sides as well. Obviously by people that never ever have been here at all and have zero idea about modern german society other what their grandparents or the tabloids told them.

You know, in Germany, there usually is a "yes, we had the Holocaust, we are responsible."
Children get to learn that nearly every year in school again, with different priorities. Everybody who really paid attention here knows exactly how the Nazi party came to power, by what means and dates. They are aware of the political and economical situation and are taught to recognize this and not to fall to politians promising everybody everything. They know what a democracy is compromised of, its weaknesses and how to stop extremists exploiting these should the danger ever arise again. They even know the pros and cons of different election systems used in democracies. They know the numbers of people killed and at least one trip to a former concentration camp is mandatory to learn what really happend back then. In my history class we even had a discussions about "Hitler's Willing Executioners" from Daniel Goldhagen. You may want to google that up.
Movies about this time here never were, and never are in any way heroizing this time period. War in general is "extremly" unpopular over here, as should have been become clear during the whole Afghanistan and Iraq discussion.
So please don't tell me anything about "forgetting". I doubt any people in the world is as aware of what it did to a degree as we are and keeps this remembering up. The very word "Nazi", when thrown at someone else, is possible the greatest and most personal offense you can give, often exploited as a "beat to death" argument when nothing productive is left to say, and the same way percieved here. Germany paid around 60 billion of compensations. By far not enough to make up for the extreme suffering, but we at least tried to compensate with the only means we had, and do so to this very day.

In Britain, there always is a "but" involved. "Yeah, we did terrible things in the colonies BUT we brought civilisation around. Yeah, terror bombing maybe was not so nice BUT it was for a good cause!" By far not as terrible as compared to what Germany did to the jews, the gypsies, the disabled, socialists, communists, to the slavs, but even this always is followed by a "but". Every country formed its legends after WW2. In France, after the war everybody was in the resistance suddenly. Same in the Netherlands and in Denmark. Austria was just a victim as well.

Go figure. And those very same ppl then point fingers nowadays? Sorry, no. And this attitude is spreading. Ppl get sick about the constant rants by others who don't even manage to get their own doorsteps clean. I am aware how arrogant that must appear to some folks reading this, espcially in light of all the sacrifices their forefathers gave. Kid you not, I immensly respect those soldiers that gave their life in their fight against Germany for their believes in freedom and democracy. I am utterly thankful, and so is the vast majority here. But their ancestors today abuse those mens sacrifice to gain political or morale gain even in such meaningless discussions as aircraft stats. Not cool. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As another German forum member I just want to say that Beowulfs post above is absolutely spot on.
Both on factual and conclusive levels ( at least through my eyes).

@ Thiem
Don't want to interfere with the message of your post, but the first two paragraphs are in no way forbidden to be sung.
It's an urban myth.
You can sing em on the street all day long if you want to.
Even several prints of the Grundgesetz have the full version of the anthem printed in them.
It was just decided to only sing the third paragraph on official occasions - because of the reasons you mentioned above.

HuninMunin
10-05-2007, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blutarski2004:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JZG_Thiem:
Bewolf, you know this is funny. When i read Xios post i thought EXACTLY the same: "how the h3ll does he come to think that in Germany all we try to do is forget about WWII and what our fathers did?". Like you said, quite the opposite is the case, and you dont have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out once you are in Germany.

for the rest of your post, all i can say is a friggen : A M E N http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Xio, you said " ...theres one side which wants to forget". Im sorry, but this sounds so ridiculous facing facts like

1) if you paint a swastika on the wall in Germany, you can be sent to jail or at least get fined. Recently someone was being dragged to court because he sold T-shirts with the swastika and a red circle crossing it saying "Nazis suck", THATS how much we try to forget. In Duxford i saw a Buecker Jungmann with a swastika on its tailplane flying around and noone cared.

2) in germany not one single copy of "mein Kampf" has been printed since 1945, yet i can order one with a few mouseklicks form Denmark or Sewden or wherever. Flags of the 3rd Reich and other assorted stuff is also only a few mouseclicks away, but not a single one from Germany. Where are those Iron crosses n stuff remade? Not in germany afaik, but i can give you a link to eastern europe, where you can order all this stuff.

3) Its still forbidden in germany to sing the two first paragraphs of the national anthem, not because they were written by Nazis or even with sinilar intentions (the anthem was written in the middle of the 19th century), but because of germany trying to be sensible about this matter after WWII.

Imho theres a difference between "trying to forget" and "trying to eliminate". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... I must admit that I was quite surprised when I first saw photos of Russian WW2 re-enactors marching around in German uniforms. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, there are countless groups in the US of A ( and elsewhere) doing that aswell.
I think it's part of this perverted fascination for the nazis, on wich I better don't comment.

EDIT
Edited for "higher precision"

JZG_Thiem
10-05-2007, 01:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:

@ Thiem
Don't want to interfere with the message of your post, but the first two paragraphs are in no way forbidden to be sung.
It's an urban myth.
You can sing em on the street all day long if you want to.
Even several prints of the Grundgesetz have the full version of the anthem printed in them.
It was just decided to only sing the third paragraph on official occasions - because of the reasons you mentioned above. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No prob m8. I know its not forbidden to write those paragraphs at least. If you say its not illegal to sing em (out of official occasions), then ill trust your info. Yet, IF id try to sing em on the street, how long would it take until someone would approach me and call me a Nazi? 5 mins? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

One last issue to rest "my case": on 9th of November 1989 the wall was opened. Coincidently on 9th of November 1918 the first German republic was called out (by Scheidemann)? Two good reasons to make it a public holiday. Yet it was decided to move to the 3rd of October, because on 9th of November 1938 it was "Reichskristallnacht". Hardly a attempt to "forget".

OberUberWurst
10-05-2007, 01:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DmdSeeker:
too much sexism and homophobia.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif
And i fail to understand why it is ok to have more than one username on this forum.

ultraHun
10-05-2007, 01:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
I think it's part of this perverted fascination for the nazis, on wich I better don't comment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't the perverted German fascination for the nazis not start when we gave away our age-old civil and christian beliefs and started to worship Wotan and Donar again?

HuninMunin
10-05-2007, 01:48 PM
You either are not refering to me at all and the quote just slipped into your post by accident or
you have to have some pretty serious head injury to actually state that
a) the Nazis started to go pagan again
b) your remark makes even the slightest bit of sense concerning the topic.

But overall - what German fascination for the Nazis do you possibly speak of?

@ Thiem
I'd give ya three words in ( Deutschland, Deutschland über...) till you get the first sceptic look http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ultraHun
10-05-2007, 02:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You either are not refering to me at all and the quote just slipped into your post by accident or
you have to have some pretty serious head injury to actually state that
a) the Nazis started to go pagan again
b) your remark makes even the slightest bit of sense concerning the topic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good starting point is "Hitlers Wien" by Brigitte Hamman, expecially about Guido von List. Worthwile to mention too are Mathilde Ludendorff's Lichtarier.

The Nazis pseudo-germanic solstition ceremonies are obvious and well-known anyway.

HuninMunin
10-05-2007, 02:06 PM
So you insist on the Nazis worshiping Wotan and Donar again.... well, that's really way to far out there even for me to discuss...
What interests me more:
Why and for what purpose did you post that?
Especialy quoting me?
Again: What does this have to do with the topic?

EDIT
Apart from me pretending that I don't get ya friend; better be carefull about implying fascination for the nazis on my side.
You might come across a bit dump for people who actually undertand what my sig and nick is all about.

Xiolablu3
10-05-2007, 02:13 PM
Apologies if I got the feeling about WW2 in Germany wrong.

I have never been to Germany. I was thinking out loud about maybe why there is some bad feeling in Germany about Britian and the USA celebrating their victory of Nazi Germany.

If there isnt, then I am glad.

I think most people who know anything about WW2 actually think of German WW2 engineering and weapons as incredibly good, they dont put down these weapons surely because they are German.

There is extensive documentation of how the Spitfire MkV was outclassed by the FW190 in 1941-42. No attempt is made to cover this superirority up. Same with the Tiger and Panther, no attempt is made to try and 'put down' these excellent weapons. Everyone agrees they outclassed the ALlied tanks 1:1. Also the MG42, STG44 etc.

The best German weapons of WW2 are highly regarded all over the world IMO.

JZG_Thiem
10-05-2007, 02:13 PM
obviously it takes less than 3 words of the national anthem to be called a Nazi http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HuninMunin
10-05-2007, 02:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JZG_Thiem:
obviously it takes less than 3 words of the national anthem to be called a Nazi http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds incredibly stupid doesn't it?
Still it's true, aint it? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Xiolablu3
10-05-2007, 02:23 PM
I am not sure there is always a 'but' for the bad things Britain did in her colonies?

Where do you get that from?

Also I dont remember Britain ever doing anything in their colinies in the last 100 years on the scale as murdering millions and millions of Men, Women and Children purely because of their race or origin.

The German attrocities in WW2 were on a completely different scale werent they?&gt; (question not an acccusation) Particularly within the last 100 years when modern civilisation has been around. As in 'we know better' now.

If we are talking about British attrocities, and wondering if they have as much right to be as vilified as the Nazis, could you list some? Di the British ever build camps purely for exterminating people?

JZG_Thiem
10-05-2007, 02:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Apologies if I got the feeling about WW2 in Germany wrong.

I have never been to Germany. I was thinking out loud about maybe why there is some bad feeling in Germany about Britian and the USA celebrating their victory of Nazi Germany.

If there isnt, then I am glad.

I think most people who know anything about WW2 actually think of German WW2 engineering and weapons as incredibly good, they dont put down these weapons surely because they are German.

There is extensive documentation of how the Spitfire MkV was outclassed by the FW190 in 1941-42. No attempt is made to cover this superirority up. Same with the Tiger and Panther, no attempt is made to try and 'put down' these excellent weapons. Everyone agrees they outclassed the ALlied tanks 1:1. Also the MG42, STG44 etc.

The best German weapons of WW2 are highly regarded all over the world IMO. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would have to think hard to find anyone around the people i know who would bother about allies celebrating their victory over Nazi-Germany. Of course its a bit more difficult being german thinking about those events imo. Being some kind of partiot always leaves some small "bad taste" about a defeat tbh., but whatever "acta est fabula".

Re: german weaponry, if theres anything that bothers me then its BOTH extremes who think either it sucked or it was ueber. Germans are humans *newsflash* and their tech was as good or as bad as everyone elses, depending on what exatly your talking about.

Xio: get yerself a ticket to Germany and we gonna have some nice beer, and afterwards we can discuss the next invasion of France, at least thats what a lot of ppl here are thinking, right? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

Bewolf
10-05-2007, 02:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
Apologies if I got the feeling about WW2 in Germany wrong.

I have never been to Germany. I was thinking out loud about maybe why there is some bad feeling in Germany about Britian and the USA celebrating their victory of Nazi Germany.

If there isnt, then I am glad.

I think most people who know anything about WW2 actually think of German WW2 engineering and weapons as incredibly good, they dont put down these weapons surely because they are German.

There is extensive documentation of how the Spitfire MkV was outclassed by the FW190 in 1941-42. No attempt is made to cover this superirority up. Same with the Tiger and Panther, no attempt is made to try and 'put down' these excellent weapons. Everyone agrees they outclassed the ALlied tanks 1:1. Also the MG42, STG44 etc.

The best German weapons of WW2 are highly regarded all over the world IMO. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Appreciated Xio, and no harm done. I hope you are aware what I am referring too, though. This is not a general diss at the british at all, just a personal rant about the practices of certain board members here in light of opposing opinions.

HuninMunin
10-05-2007, 02:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I am not sure there is always a 'but' for the bad things Britain did in her colonies?

Where do you get that from?

Also I dont remember Britain ever doing anything in their colinies in the last 100 years on the scale as murdering millions and millions of Men, Women and Children purely because of their race or origin.

The German attrocities in WW2 were on a completely different scale werent they?&gt; (question not an acccusation) Particularly within the last 100 years when modern civilisation has been around. As in 'we know better' now.

If we are talking about British attrocities, and wondering if they have as much right to be as vilified as the Nazis, could you list some? Di the British ever build camps purely for exterminating people? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ethical failure is not a thing of scale or relation.
It is not about the "weight" of bad things happened.
Just about how some users here are blind or evase about bad thing done by "their" side.

Just like you did right now - argumenting for the greater evil...
It's about perspetive.
As Beowulf pointed out, the view of 99,9 % of modern Germans towards WW2 is 100 % objective.
A part of the posters from states that once formed the allies 65 years ago don't care for objectivity and therefore imply that this must be true for the German users too.
It aint.

Blutarski2004
10-05-2007, 02:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:

Oh, there are countless groups in the US of A doing that aswell.
I think it's part of this perverted fascination for the nazis, on wich I better don't comment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Indeed so re US WW2 re-enacting.

Bearcat99
10-05-2007, 02:45 PM
Well this one has certainly taken a turn for the surreal.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Not a bad turn mind you.. but a turn none the less...

You know it is funny.. I see this dialog... and I think about one of the main reasons why I just dont see this place as a Zoo.... I look at what BW , Thiem, Xiola & Fritz said... and .... these are perspectives that I would not know about, were it not for these forums... If we keep that in mind.. and we all remember that the men who fought the war for the most part have come to grips with it.. and their adversaries... our little differences become small and petty in comparison... So if everyone just took a little broader step...... towards considering what they post.. before they post.. then perhaps we can finally shed that Zoo label...

triad773
10-05-2007, 02:48 PM
I attended a Civil War re-enactment a few years ago not far from here. The atmosphere was more a sort of carnival. Don't think any animosity was held against the fellows on the Confederate side, they were just there.

As a side note, I was wondering, who was the original composer of the piece that inspired the German National Anthem? As I remember it was either Beethoven Eroica or Bach of some kind. Seems the more I learn the more I tend to forget. Thanks for the help.

Triad

-HH-Quazi
10-05-2007, 02:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The German attrocities in WW2 were on a completely different scale werent they?&gt; (question not an acccusation) Particularly within the last 100 years when modern civilisation has been around. As in 'we know better' now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Wouldn't it better or correct to call them "Nazi" atrocities instead of German atrocities? Just asking. I mean we shouldn't put the entire German populace under the Nazi banner. I also believe you weren't trying to do that to start with.

HuninMunin
10-05-2007, 02:51 PM
Music was composed by Joseph Haydn in 1797 for the emperor and it was later used by Fallersleben who simply wrote the lyrics to the "old" melody in 1841.
Interesting sidenote is that the patriotism of the text isn't born out of pride but out of the wish for a united Germany, seeing it was written shortly before the revolution.
This Deutschlandlied - this "song of Germay" was finaly selected as the official anthem in '22.
The Nazis only used the first paragraph, as it mostly deals with the greatness of Germany ( again, in the intention of the author this was no praise of Germany but the expression of how dire and glorious the thought of a united Germany was back in the day).

EDIT
What the heck is a Germay?

bigbossmalone
10-05-2007, 02:55 PM
On the lighter side of life....
anyone keen to start discussing which beer they think is better; German,Brit,US?....my money's on Belgian
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

carguy_
10-05-2007, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -HH-Quazi:
Wouldn't it better or correct to call them "Nazi" atrocities instead of German atrocities? Just asking. I mean we shouldn't put the entire German populace under the Nazi banner. I also believe you weren't trying to do that to start with. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

HuninMunin
10-05-2007, 02:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bigbossmalone:
On the lighter side of life....
anyone keen to start discussing which beer they think is better; German,Brit,US?....my money's on Belgian
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

No contest there.
http://www.faw-ev.de/images/content/plakat-grandprix-2005/plakat/plakat_sonder__fruehkoelsch.jpg

triad773
10-05-2007, 02:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
Well this one has certainly taken a turn for the surreal.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BC- certainly you have been in a private topic here. I know some have been really out there yet everyone remained pretty civil. I think its a credit to those who post and have awareness of... as you might possibly say, being cognoscente of what and who they are posting to.

The private topics I have been privi too have been in some ways pretty wild, as well as civil and basically respectful at the same time. The ones I've been in a credit to Pirsch for welcoming people who seemed to have something on the ball as well as civil.

It's one of the things I enjoy about this forum- the unexpected, but also can get pretty wild-- yet still no reflection on those in charge. Just a bunch of folks who have generally a common interest http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers

JZG_Thiem
10-05-2007, 03:00 PM
I agree HuninMunin. What would the crusaders have done if they had 20th century tech? What would the Conquistadores done if they had 20th century tech? What would slave trading companies have done with 20th century tech? The list goes on and on.

Evil really cant be measured by its size, but by its character. What makes the german efforts during the 30s-40s so outstanding is that it could happen long after concepts like human rights etc. were developed and commonly known. Yet, it doesnt (shouldnt?) change a bit the view on efforts of other groups or nations in other times. Sometimes i come to think a lot of people are happy (willingly or unwillingly) that Germany in the 20th century blocks the view back on other things. Similar to what Bewolf posted some page back. No personal accusation but a feeling in general.

triad773
10-05-2007, 03:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
Music was composed by Joseph Haydn in 1797 for the emperor and it was later used by Fallersleben who simply wrote the lyrics to the "old" melody in 1841.
Interesting sidenote is that the patriotism of the text isn't born out of pride but out of the wish for a united Germany, seeing it was written shortly before the revolution.
This Deutschlandlied - this "song of Germay" was finaly selected as the official anthem in '22.
The Nazis only used the first paragraph, as it mostly deals with the greatness of Germany ( again, in the intention of the author this was no praise of Germany but the expression of how dire and glorious the thought of a united Germany was back in the day).
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AH- Haydn - thank you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ElAurens
10-05-2007, 03:05 PM
German Beer is uber.

Be sure.

But I have found that most countries around the planet have the knack of brewing up at least one good beer or ale. All different in character, but good none the less.

Much like their people.

Beer, the great peacemaker.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

HuninMunin
10-05-2007, 03:09 PM
Hell yes
http://www.checkout.ie/images/magazine/2005-08/drinks_1.jpg

bigbossmalone
10-05-2007, 03:10 PM
Hmm, I clock off from work in about an hour.
Think I'm gonna get me a cold one, or two...
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Bewolf
10-05-2007, 03:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -HH-Quazi:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
The German attrocities in WW2 were on a completely different scale werent they?&gt; (question not an acccusation) Particularly within the last 100 years when modern civilisation has been around. As in 'we know better' now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Wouldn't it better or correct to call them "Nazi" atrocities instead of German atrocities? Just asking. I mean we shouldn't put the entire German populace under the Nazi banner. I also believe you weren't trying to do that to start with. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, because it were german attrocities, not Nazi attrocities. The regular troops played along as well. There also were not Nazis on the one side, then a stark line, then the "others". Think of a cloudy day. The shades of grey in there comes close to the truth. Good people even within the Nazi Party, evil ppl having nothing to do with the Nazis.

DrHerb
10-05-2007, 03:20 PM
I bet beer has been the instigator of some zooing around in this forum. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MB_Avro_UK
10-05-2007, 03:22 PM
Hi all,

Its a credit to Germany that they have recognised and fully admitted the behaviour of the Nazis in ww2. (Not so in Japan but that is another topic).

Because of online il2, I have been to Germany a number of times and German guys have been here to visit me.

We have had fantastic times together and enjoyed several beers or more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

But what I find strange is that in Germany it is difficult to objectively discuss WW2. One guy has 3 reference books about German WW2 history and he has to keep this quiet for fear of being called a Nazi!

Not all members of the German military in WW2 were evil Nazis. The vast majority were doing their duty for their country and regarded themselves as compensating for the injustices of the Versailles Treaty in 1919 after WW1.

But I think it is wrong to keep pointing the accusing finger at Germany in 2007 for events that happened over 60 years ago.

And of great importance...English beer is slightly better than German beer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

MB_Avro_UK
10-05-2007, 03:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Hi all,

Its a credit to Germany that they have recognised and fully admitted the behaviour of the Nazis in ww2. (Not so in Japan but that is another topic).

Because of online il2, I have been to Germany a number of times and German guys have been here to visit me.

We have had fantastic times together and enjoyed several beers or more http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

But what I find strange is that in Germany it is difficult to objectively discuss WW2. One guy has 3 reference books about German WW2 history and he has to keep this quiet for fear of being called a Nazi!

Not all members of the German military in WW2 were evil Nazis. The vast majority were doing their duty for their country and regarded themselves as compensating for the injustices of the Versailles Treaty in 1919 after WW1.

But I think it is wrong to keep pointing the accusing finger at Germany in 2007 for events that happened over 60 years ago.

And of great importance...English beer is slightly better than German beer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Wow! My 1,000 post http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Bewolf
10-05-2007, 03:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:

And of great importance...English beer is slightly better than German beer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

See? They did that back then, too!

HuninMunin
10-05-2007, 03:28 PM
Nonsense / als ob.
As we were all pagan back then we drank MET.
Talking about met - I love it.

Bewolf
10-05-2007, 03:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
I am not sure there is always a 'but' for the bad things Britain did in her colonies?

Where do you get that from?

Also I dont remember Britain ever doing anything in their colinies in the last 100 years on the scale as murdering millions and millions of Men, Women and Children purely because of their race or origin.

The German attrocities in WW2 were on a completely different scale werent they?&gt; (question not an acccusation) Particularly within the last 100 years when modern civilisation has been around. As in 'we know better' now.

If we are talking about British attrocities, and wondering if they have as much right to be as vilified as the Nazis, could you list some? Di the British ever build camps purely for exterminating people? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, only just saw that.

And heavens, Xio, we just had that. British were by far not as worse as the germans. By an "uberhuge" margin not. That is not the point. Nobody ever stated that.

msalama
10-05-2007, 03:31 PM
Hmmm... The way I see it is that there's NO WAY anyone can apologize for ANY nation, clique, regime or group who has committed ANY kind of atrocities at all during their reign, be they Nazis, Communists, slave drivers or who the hell ever. And if I'm not correct, then where the f*k do we really stand as free individuals, eh?

Who remembers the Armenians and what happened to them, BTW? And who in their right mind thinks that our precious human rights, etc. are in any kind of good shape ATM anyway, eh?

Remember the Pol Pot and what they did? Stalin? The list goes on and on. Do we ever learn, or do we just recycle the same old cliches decade in, decade out?

Well I _do_ get a bit pessimistic indeed at times, granted...

msalama
10-05-2007, 03:34 PM
...but then again, pretty much everyone including the democracies have f*d up spectacularly at least at some point as regards basic human respect (or do so currently, actually), so... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

JZG_Thiem
10-05-2007, 03:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
Hell yes
http://www.checkout.ie/images/magazine/2005-08/drinks_1.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stout and Kilkenny, THATS über! Yet Stella aint bad either. The only true german rival they have (imo) is http://www.flens.de/

leitmotiv
10-05-2007, 03:42 PM
Comparative atrocities and injustices are the last refuges of charlatans.

msalama
10-05-2007, 03:45 PM
Kilkenny
******ss
Velkopopovichy Dark
Urquell (from tap)

...aaand this bottled Schwabenbräu I'm drinking ATM http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HuninMunin
10-05-2007, 03:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Comparative atrocities and injustices are the last refuges of charlatans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I love your new way of saying "I agree with you, Simon". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

HuninMunin
10-05-2007, 03:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JZG_Thiem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
Hell yes
http://www.checkout.ie/images/magazine/2005-08/drinks_1.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stout and Kilkenny, THATS über! Yet Stella aint bad either. The only true german rival they have (imo) is http://www.flens.de/ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well kind of...
Beeing from Cologne I seriously canno't comment on any German beer except Koelsch http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

msalama
10-05-2007, 03:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Comparative atrocities and injustices are the last refuges of charlatans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed. How can you - or how should you - quantify human suffering for example?

Bewolf
10-05-2007, 03:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JZG_Thiem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
Hell yes
http://www.checkout.ie/images/magazine/2005-08/drinks_1.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stout and Kilkenny, THATS über! Yet Stella aint bad either. The only true german rival they have (imo) is http://www.flens.de/ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well kind of...
Beeing from Cologne I seriously canno't comment on any German beer except Koelsch http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You wanted to say, "I seriously canno't comment on any German beer". Cuz Kölsch is nothing but flavored soda. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

oh btw.

Meet the definition of beer:

http://www.fuechschen.de/images/alt-flasche.jpg

leitmotiv
10-05-2007, 03:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Comparative atrocities and injustices are the last refuges of charlatans. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed. How can you - or how should you - quantify human suffering for example? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.

JZG_Thiem
10-05-2007, 03:59 PM
uhh, ohh, i think weve got a "Köln-Düsseldorf" thing running. Thats gonna be REAL nastee. Be prepared for a load of bans in the near future.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

Bewolf
10-05-2007, 04:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JZG_Thiem:
uhh, ohh, i think weve got a "Köln-Düsseldorf" thing running. Thats gonna be REAL nastee. Be prepared for a load of bans in the near future.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He still has a chance to testify for his sins.

leitmotiv
10-05-2007, 04:07 PM
No people on earth have endured what the people of the former Soviet Empire and Red China have endured from their own leaders in the 20th century. They will never receive apologies, or restitutions, or compensations. Compared to them, the groups in the West howling for apologies and money look greedy and ridiculous. History is a juggernaut. It is the job of each individual to try to stay out of its way---assuming this is possible, which it often isn't.

Bearcat99
10-05-2007, 04:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
No people on earth have endured what the people of the former Soviet Empire and Red China have endured from their own leaders in the 20th century. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well you have a point there.....

msalama
10-05-2007, 04:12 PM
Not just a point, he's 100% correct actually. Chairman Mao, perchange? Now there's a f*r for you...

msalama
10-05-2007, 04:13 PM
Red China = 70 million dead.

DKoor
10-05-2007, 04:18 PM
You people here are da bombs.
From ZOO too mass murders in 10 pages.
Premium fun.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

JZG_Thiem
10-05-2007, 04:20 PM
70mio, 20mio, 6 mio. Its not the size of the pile of bodies that srikes me mostly...
Looking at Uncle Joe, Mao, Pol Pot etc. ( Adlof has been mentioned aleady) i always wonder what those guys think gave them the right to murder and torture other humans in the most abysmal ways one can imagine, countrymen or not. What did they think justified their deeds? Ok, some of them were psychos on rampage, but others maybe not. Did they really consider building a "better world" on top of a mile high pile of rotting corpses being a valid option?

JZG_Thiem
10-05-2007, 04:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
You people here are da bombs.
From ZOO too mass murders in 10 pages.
Premium fun.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We had babes somewhere in the middle iirc. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

msalama
10-05-2007, 04:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Premium fun. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, gotta keep the discussion going is the #1

The #2 is that yah, even the animals do embark on serious(ish) discussions every now and then

T3H #3 is that aye, we've all heard that the 109 elevator is porked and the .50s are too, so why not have a change of pace every now and then?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif right back at ya then

ElAurens
10-05-2007, 04:28 PM
Hitler was an amateur compared to Stalin.

But beer is altogether a better subject.

Honestly.

Open one up, fire up the game and enjoy life.

msalama
10-05-2007, 04:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ok, some of them were psychos on rampage, but others maybe not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm...

The mechanism of them acquiring the power in the first place is what intrigues me the most actually - or, in other words, is there a way of preventing their like of getting it in the future?

msalama
10-05-2007, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Open one up, fire up the game and enjoy life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is what I've done for the most of the evening so far actually http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bewolf
10-05-2007, 04:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
Hitler was an amateur compared to Stalin.

But beer is altogether a better subject.

Honestly.

Open one up, fire up the game and enjoy life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

El Aurens, that probably was the best post I've ever seen from you here. *goes open up a beer*

ElAurens
10-05-2007, 04:41 PM
http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/beerchug.gif

Thank you sir.

HuninMunin
10-05-2007, 04:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JZG_Thiem:
uhh, ohh, i think weve got a "Köln-Düsseldorf" thing running. Thats gonna be REAL nastee. Be prepared for a load of bans in the near future.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He still has a chance to testify for his sins. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The sun laughs over Cologne etc etc.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
You have a pretty decent opera house though..
Otherwise you have my deep sympathy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

Anyway - Cheers to ya'all mates!

msalama
10-05-2007, 05:03 PM
OK guys, for the next time I visit Berlin -

What are the brews you recommend? I've found there're some excellent weissbiers there, but any specific brands you'd like to mention?

Then again all German beer is good of course http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Bewolf
10-05-2007, 05:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:


The sun laughs over Cologne etc etc.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
You have a pretty decent opera house though..
Otherwise you have my deep sympathy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

Anyway - Cheers to ya'all mates! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I love good lid parking lots, especially with that dome shaped direction sign http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif

HuninMunin
10-05-2007, 05:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:
OK guys, for the next time I visit Berlin -

What are the brews you recommend? I've found there're some excellent weissbiers there, but any specific brands you'd like to mention?

Then again all German beer is good of course http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you want to drink what everyone there drinks you should just get a Becks.
Otherwise you can find alot of dutch brews too in all larger citys.
Anyway - do yourself a favor and grab a Koelsch man.

HuninMunin
10-05-2007, 05:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bewolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:


The sun laughs over Cologne etc etc.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
You have a pretty decent opera house though..
Otherwise you have my deep sympathy http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

Anyway - Cheers to ya'all mates! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I love good lid parking lots, especially with that dome shaped direction sign http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't it comforting for you lot to know that we are generous enough to let you call that event you do in spring "carneval"?
I mean - the term alone brings a little spark of style to you.
And don't worry - it can only get better. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

msalama
10-05-2007, 05:15 PM
S! HuninMunin.

Becks - a bit BLECH truth be telt.

Dutch brews - even more so, taken into account that we're in the Haupstadt der Bundesrepublik Deutschland now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

Koelsch - gotta remember that one. Thanks again.

HuninMunin
10-05-2007, 05:23 PM
OK - just to be shure: Do not ask for Koelsch IN BERLIN.
It would pretty much be considered import beer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .
Koelsch is the local "brand" of the Cologne region.
It's much lighter then most other beers, but we all here have grown up with it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif .

Bewolf
10-05-2007, 05:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:

Isn't it comforting for you lot to know that we are generous enough to let you call that event you do in spring "carneval"?
I mean - the term alone brings a little spark of style to you.
And don't worry - it can only get better. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha! you mean that thing that is also labeled as "whinerssval" in cologne, eh? Yanno, where everything that could anger anybody is removed from the cars http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Bewolf
10-05-2007, 05:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by msalama:

Koelsch - gotta remember that one. Thanks again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh heavens! Do not listen to that dark messiah and his vile promises trying to lure you to his flavored water!

msalama
10-05-2007, 05:34 PM
OK, just gotta ask the bartender the next time I'm in town then http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Sturm_Williger
10-05-2007, 07:42 PM
I used to believe in Belgian beers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

But the last time I was in Austria I discovered Kaiser Doppelmalz http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Now I just have to move to Austria...

triad773
10-05-2007, 08:07 PM
Mmmmmmmmmmm... OK then has this digressed into a beer topic (or, a bier topic?)

If so Urquel is realllly good on tap here IMHO.

Cheers

Tom

R_Target
10-05-2007, 11:36 PM
Calling this place a zoo is an insult to zoos.

bigbossmalone
10-06-2007, 01:47 AM
German beer = http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
UK beer (ale) = http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
US beer = http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

(a personal opinion, not to be taken personally!- no bashing intended)

DKoor
10-06-2007, 01:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by R_Target:
Calling this place a zoo is an insult to zoos. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>A classic but nevertheless - +1 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Pirschjaeger
10-06-2007, 02:11 AM
Ok, how about a new nick for this forum?

I officially submit "ubi-ward". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Do I get a free beer? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

joeap
10-06-2007, 06:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Ok, how about a new nick for this forum?

I officially submit "ubi-ward". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Do I get a free beer? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

DID SOMEONE SAY FREE BEER!!!

DD_crash
10-06-2007, 06:18 AM
Back on topic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I dont know if its been mentioned but without this forum I am sure we wouldnt have 1946 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

DKoor
10-06-2007, 07:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Ok, how about a new nick for this forum?

I officially submit "ubi-ward". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Do I get a free beer? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Your nick cannot contain word UBi. Against da rulez http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

csThor
10-06-2007, 07:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
OK - just to be shure: Do not ask for Koelsch IN BERLIN.
It would pretty much be considered import beer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do not ask for that stuff anywhere you expect good beer. Most prople consider Koelsch to be an offence against the german purity law. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

PS: Not that Düsseldorfer Alt is any better. Gelle, Bewolf? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bewolf
10-06-2007, 07:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by csThor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HuninMunin:
OK - just to be shure: Do not ask for Koelsch IN BERLIN.
It would pretty much be considered import beer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do not ask for that stuff anywhere you expect good beer. Most prople consider Koelsch to be an offence against the german purity law. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

PS: Not that Düsseldorfer Alt is any better. Gelle, Bewolf? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.world-of-smilies.com/wos_gewalt/a078.gif

Blutarski2004
10-06-2007, 08:03 AM
The US once had a wonderful beer-brewing culture thanks to the immense number of Europeans [particularly German] who immigrated here in the 19th c. There were thousands of small local breweries across the nation. Prohibition destroyed the entire industry and we ended up with a handful of gigantic beer "marketers" [I cannot call them "brewers"] whose product is to true beer what McDonald's is to fine dining.

Thankfully, quality "boutique" brewing is undergoing a revival in the US and some very fine beers are now being produced.

csThor
10-06-2007, 08:14 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif, Bewolf. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

http://forums.rochen.com/images/smilies/finger.gif

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-HH-Quazi
10-06-2007, 10:20 AM
I've never had what you guys would consider a good German beer. I hope one day to visit Germany & make my rounds. Is beer served warm over there? I heard it was.

Pirschjaeger
10-06-2007, 10:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -HH-Quazi:
Is beer served warm over there? I heard it was. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only for medicinal purposes such as cold, flus, and the odd visiting Brit. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

MEGILE
10-06-2007, 10:48 AM
The British don't drink British beer, save for a few whirly whiners who have a penchant for a round of Spitfire's.

Over here they all drink Stella, Carlsberg, Fosters and Kronenbourg.

Pirschjaeger
10-06-2007, 10:56 AM
They've got really nice sigs though. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

JZG_Thiem
10-06-2007, 11:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -HH-Quazi:
I've never had what you guys would consider a good German beer. I hope one day to visit Germany & make my rounds. Is beer served warm over there? I heard it was. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Beer served warm in Germany?
sorry, you just qualified for a permanent ban. You better get a new passport before trying to enter Germany now. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ploughman
10-06-2007, 11:18 AM
Look, warm is 32 degrees on a beach in Ibiza. Warm is a hot fudge Sundai, warm is fifteen feet from an atom bomb, warm is close but no cigar.

Beer served at about 12 or 13 degrees is not warm, it is cool; it just isn't cool enough to float a polar bear's fancy.

I like beer, I don't like hypothermia.

Pirschjaeger
10-06-2007, 11:29 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

LMAO count +1

Low_Flyer_MkVb
10-07-2007, 06:36 AM
"The British don't drink British beer, save for a few whirly whiners who have a penchant for a round of Spitfire's.

Over here they all drink Stella, Carlsberg, Fosters and Kronenbourg."


A few? We are legion.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/vicwit.jpg

Got to admit, these look better...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/40883.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/master-home-page_11.jpg

Platypus_1.JaVA
10-07-2007, 12:11 PM
Well, after reading every thread with the word 'mod' in it the last few days, can any sane person say that this place is NOT a zoo? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

(Sad really http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif)

Skunk_438RCAF
10-07-2007, 01:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
The British don't drink British beer,
Over here they all drink Stella, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man...you do know there is a reason why the belgians export Stella Artois, right?

MEGILE
10-07-2007, 01:09 PM
Yes, it is affectionatly called "Wife Beater" for a reason.