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ARCHIE_CALVERT
12-28-2005, 02:06 PM
Are

Just something that happens, looks kinda nice, but basically harmless‚‚ā¨¬¶http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Or

Causes Global Dimming, alters the pattern of the world's rainfall, Crop failures will become more common and ultimately world famine‚‚ā¨¬¶http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Or

Better the Devil we know, as the cure will be worst than the cold‚‚ā¨¬¶ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrail

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/Secudus/Con00.jpg

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/news/releases/2004/04-140.html

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/Secudus/Con01.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/dimming_trans.shtml

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/Secudus/Con02.jpg

http://www.303rdbg.com/427alderman.html

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/Secudus/Con03.jpg

http://www.phschool.com/science/science_news/articles/s...own_of_airlines.html (http://www.phschool.com/science/science_news/articles/shutdown_of_airlines.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/Secudus/Con04.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/Secudus/Con05.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/Secudus/Con06.jpg

MLudner
12-28-2005, 02:53 PM
Chemtrails, you mean...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

ARCHIE_CALVERT
12-28-2005, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by MLudner:
Chemtrails, you mean...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

No... I mean Contrails http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LStarosta
12-28-2005, 04:39 PM
http://www.indcjournal.com/archives/corsair%20Boxer.jpg

Sex.

MLudner
12-28-2005, 04:46 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif CHEMtrails, I says!

berg417448
12-28-2005, 04:53 PM
a visit to this site is in order! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://zapatopi.net/blackhelicopters/

MLudner
12-28-2005, 05:12 PM
That was funny.....or - at least - mildly amusing.

SlickStick
12-29-2005, 11:52 AM
D*mn, that's some scary sh*t, Archie. The fact that Global Dimming has actually been masking the true damage that Global Warming is doing to the earth, and the rate that it is doing it, is staggering.

I'm hoping they really start to push for practical solutions to the issues at hand. We can't just clean the pollution without cleaning up the burning of natural fuels. Hybrid cars really start to become a priority now, not just a way to start cleaning up our environment.

Man can be quite ignorant at times about his role on this planet and what we are doing to it with our industrialization of it. However, to now find out that they may have grossly underestimated the true strength of global warming, due to the global dimming effect, let's hope is a major eye-opener for them.

Good information. Thanks for posting this.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/1720/1036851pe.jpg

MLudner
12-29-2005, 12:07 PM
You know ....... the polar ice caps on MARS are melting, too! OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Industrialization is destroying MARS, too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Chicken little is not dead, and never will be. Do you know what happens when a volcano goes off? Are you aware than Penitubo alone in a month dumped more greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere that all humanity has since the beginning of the industrial era? So did Aetna.
Know what a black smoker is? They dump more pollutants into the ocean on a daily basis than all of humanity and they've been at it since the beginning of the planet.

heywooood
12-29-2005, 12:19 PM
if I killed 10 rats a day for the rest of my life I would not effect the rat population at all...but if everyone on the planet killed 10 rats a day beginning tomorrow there would be no rats left in the world in a matter of weeks... I imagine this kind of 'volume usage' would apply to most anything we all use or do in this world.

Figuring out the alternatives and then applying them is step 2 and 3 to this neverending puzzle, because as sure as you find something that looks good - then apply volume usage - you find out that your new resource is also flawed.

ARCHIE_CALVERT
12-29-2005, 12:23 PM
MLudner: Go here please: http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_essays_luddite.html

If you think it applies to you, I suggest you change your user name to the same... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

SlickStick
12-29-2005, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by MLudner:
You know ....... the polar ice caps on MARS are melting, too! OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Industrialization is destroying MARS, too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Chicken little is not dead, and never will be. Do you know what happens when a volcano goes off? Are you aware than Penitubo alone in a month dumped more greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere that all humanity has since the beginning of the industrial era? So did Aetna.
Know what a black smoker is? They dump more pollutants into the ocean on a daily basis than all of humanity and they've been at it since the beginning of the planet.

Hmmm, not sure what your point is. I realize that there are natural reasons for global warming and global dimming, but to discount man's effect on these issues would be short-sighted in my opinion.

I guess you don't feel this to be a valid issue?

ARCHIE_CALVERT
12-29-2005, 12:44 PM
I imagine this kind of 'volume usage' would apply to most anything we all use or do in this world.

Figuring out the alternatives and then applying them is step 2 and 3 to this neverending puzzle, because as sure as you find something that looks good - then apply volume usage - you find out that your new resource is also flawed...

I take it you belong to this group then... "Just something that happens, looks kinda nice, but basically harmless‚‚ā¨¬¶"

Just out of interest how would you feel if all the major car manufacturers said they would be building these and only these:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3971080293

By the year 2010... No petrol engined vehicles for domestic/pleasure use would be built after 2008...

MLudner
12-29-2005, 12:46 PM
BTW: Which is NOT to say that we should not develop a better, clean running propulsion system. We should; it's just that there's no need to panic or enslave ourselves to acheive it.
A: Fossil fuels are a finite resource, and while reserves of them are no where near as low as the Chicken Little Mob would have us believe, they will run out in time.
B: They are dirty. While I do not believe they are destroying the world as the evidence is no where near sufficient to show this, it is definitely not healthy and we would be better-off without it.
I would rather employ a carrot rather than a stick in getting it done. Common human experience shows reward works better than punishment in matters like these.
The Ozone holes are one of my favorite Chicken Little lies. You know those pictures they always show; one labelled "1979" (or some such year) which shows an intact ozone layer over the Antarctic and the other labelled "Present" which shows a huge opening in the ozone layer over the Antarctic? Reality: The first is a picture of the SUMMER and the other of the WINTER in ANY given year since we have been capable of taking those images. High School Science class level data: The Ozone layer is created by solar radiation striking the Earth's upper atmosphere and causing a chemical reaction that produces ozone. What stops happening over Antarctica (and the Arctic) in the Winter? The sun does not shine. As solar radiation ceases to bombard the atmosphere the chemical reaction in the area stops and the natural air currents move the ozone away into other areas until the sun again shines. For all we know this has been the way it has been since the beginning of our tilted axis which produces this peculiarity.

Accusations of ignorance on my part only go to display the actuality of ignorance on yours http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif. So, don't go there and reply with reason if you can manage it.

SlickStick
12-29-2005, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by MLudner:
So, don't go there and reply with reason if you can manage it.

Pffft, why bother? You obviously need this, so I'll just move along, taking what I've learned from this and do my part as I see fit. Thanks for sharing though.

MLudner
12-29-2005, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by ARCHIE_CALVERT:
MLudner: Go here please: http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_essays_luddite.html

If you think it applies to you, I suggest you change your user name to the same... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

PAR PSITTACO EBRIO BLATERANT. STVLTIOR QVAM ASINVS SVNT.

That was certainly vacuous and inane. I said respond with reason if you are capable of it.
Art thou?

DxyFlyr
12-29-2005, 01:10 PM
Ok, I've got a contrail question...

Is it possible to identify an aircraft type by the contrail it produces?

I know a guy in Florida who said he could ID B-52's headed to the middle east by their distinctive contrail (when they were making such trips). The plane itself was not visible to the eye.

Is he full of hot air?

berg417448
12-29-2005, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by DxyFlyr:
Ok, I've got a contrail question...

Is it possible to identify an aircraft type by the contrail it produces?

I know a guy in Florida who said he could ID B-52's headed to the middle east by their distinctive contrail (when they were making such trips). The plane itself was not visible to the eye.

Is he full of hot air?

Well...since the B-52 has eight engines I suppose it would have a distinct contrail.

MLudner
12-29-2005, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by SlickStick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
You know ....... the polar ice caps on MARS are melting, too! OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
Industrialization is destroying MARS, too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Chicken little is not dead, and never will be. Do you know what happens when a volcano goes off? Are you aware than Penitubo alone in a month dumped more greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere that all humanity has since the beginning of the industrial era? So did Aetna.
Know what a black smoker is? They dump more pollutants into the ocean on a daily basis than all of humanity and they've been at it since the beginning of the planet.

Hmmm, not sure what your point is. I realize that there are natural reasons for global warming and global dimming, but to discount man's effect on these issues would be short-sighted in my opinion.

I guess you don't feel this to be a valid issue? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Feel has nothing to do with it. I do not think it is an ENTIRELY valid issue. The climate of the Earth has shown one constant in the last several thousand millenia:
Change.
It does not stay the same and has never been stable, really. Ice Ages come and Ice Ages go; planet warms, planet cools; Forests recede, then forests expand; Sea levels rise and sea levels fall; even the atmospheric oxygen content has never been constant (Not sure we ever want to see it as high as it was in one by-gone era where we got dragonflies and spiders big enough to eat cats!). I love prehistoric life and read a lot of scientific books about life from the Cretaceous-back and that's where you learn things like this.

The point I am making above is that if industrialization was going to destroy the earth and all life on it at the rate it infuses into the atmosphere, then would not volcanic eruptions like Penitubo and Aetna have blown gaping and unsurviveable holes in it?

Mars is not industrialized, yet the polar ice caps there are also melting.

You know, there's this really big, really hot ball of hydrogen and other gasses in the middle of the solar system - it's called the "Sun", or something like that - that might be influencing matters a little.

MLudner
12-29-2005, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by SlickStick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
So, don't go there and reply with reason if you can manage it.

Pffft, why bother? You obviously need this, so I'll just move along, taking what I've learned from this and do my part as I see fit. Thanks for sharing though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Did you understand what I was saying there, Slick? It was not an insult, Dude; just a request to keep it intelligent and not do what AC did in posting that link about "Luddites" while I was writing that.

I was saying ridicule will beget ridicule. I have no problem discussing these issues and I don't hate someone for having a view divergent from mine. IMHO this entire thread is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1241.gif but until they lock it I'll converse in it in as civil a manner as y'all will allow.

DxyFlyr
12-29-2005, 01:38 PM
Ever since he told me that, I've been looking.

I live about 200 miles east of Barksdale AFB. I've seen a few trails that look like they might be 52's headed to or from the "Shreveport direction", but you can't distinquish the number of engines (at least I can't).

At 200 miles out, I'm not sure if they would be high enough to create contrails?

Anyway, I'd love to be able to impress the friends and neighbors by pointing to a contrail and citing the plane type. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

SlickStick
12-29-2005, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by MLudner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
So, don't go there and reply with reason if you can manage it.

Pffft, why bother? You obviously need this, so I'll just move along, taking what I've learned from this and do my part as I see fit. Thanks for sharing though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Did you understand what I was saying there, Slick? It was not an insult, Dude; just a request to keep it intelligent and not do what AC did in posting that link about "Luddites" while I was writing that.

I was saying ridicule will beget ridicule. I have no problem discussing these issues and I don't hate someone for having a view divergent from mine. IMHO this entire thread is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1241.gif but until they lock it I'll converse in it in as civil a manner as y'all will allow. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess it's the manner in which you go about your opinions that is the turn-off. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

You are putting too much emphasis on the "industrialization" part of my post. It's a part of the problem, and contrails are contributing to it. Did you even read any of the articles that Archie linked in his first post? You seem to be downplaying the issue like you have oil stocks or something, lol.

Natural contributors are one thing and no one is saying the sky is falling, but there is quite a bit of merit in the results of their experiments, especially the study performed around the three days after 9/11.

My main point from my first post was that the fact that the sun's light has been dimmed, as measured at different points in the world by recent studies, has skewed the rules that were defining global warming and has thus added another variable into their equation.

ARCHIE_CALVERT
12-29-2005, 04:13 PM
‚‚ā¨ŇďYou know ....... the polar ice caps on MARS are melting, too! OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Industrialization is destroying MARS, too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chicken little is not dead, and never will be. Do you know what happens when a volcano goes off? Are you aware than Penitubo alone in a month dumped more greenhouse gasses into the atmosphere that all humanity has since the beginning of the industrial era? So did Aetna.
Know what a black smoker is? They dump more pollutants into the ocean on a daily basis than all of humanity and they've been at it since the beginning of the planet. ‚‚ā¨Ňď

Hmmm‚‚ā¨¬¶ You seem to looking at this from a different angle than me. All of the above are natural events of the planet, they have happened before and will no doubt happen again. The severity of the event may vary and the effect it has on a global scale can be minimal or catastrophic‚‚ā¨¬¶ The forces that have brought geologic changes to the earth in the past were altered by the appearance of man; our being here has modified the equation. It has been altered before by any new organism that evolved on the planet, man is no exception.
We have changed the equation, though not by much by your reasoning‚‚ā¨¬¶ But changed it is and that change however small has had it‚‚ā¨ôs knock-on effect on the planet, for better or worst.

Lud‚∑dite (lҬ*d'ńęt)
n.
1. Any of a group of British workers who between 1811 and 1816 rioted and destroyed laborsaving textile machinery in the belief that such machinery would diminish employment.
2. One who opposes technical or technological change.

[After Ned Ludd, an English laborer who was supposed to have destroyed weaving machinery around 1779.]

I called you a Luddite‚‚ā¨¬¶ A bit strong I grant you. But you appear to think I‚‚ā¨ôm some sort of Eco warrior and by the tone of some of your responses I believe you appear to think I am anti contrails and the aircraft that make them‚‚ā¨¬¶ Or is that assumption wrong?

At the beginning of this post I made three statements‚‚ā¨¬¶ I‚‚ā¨ôll post them again here:

Contrails are;

1. Just something that happens, looks kinda nice, but basically harmless‚‚ā¨¬¶

2. Causes Global Dimming, alters the pattern of the world's rainfall, Crop failures will become more common and ultimately world famine‚‚ā¨¬¶

3.Better the Devil we know, as the cure will be worst than the cold‚‚ā¨¬¶

At no point did I say with which I concurred‚‚ā¨¬¶ Although it appears you did‚‚ā¨¬¶

MLudner
12-29-2005, 04:57 PM
Actually, I have only directly directed two posts at you since I popped in here and the first was a joke.
The one your quoting there was more at Slick, there, and even then is partially humorous (Though not in what I was saying, just in the mannerism).

The first was the one:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gifCHEMtrails, I says!
where I'm spoofing the conspiracy theorists.

The other was the reply to the Luddite bit. You don't need to define Luddite for me, by the way. You wanna talk about minor loon sects, I'm up for it. That did grate a bit, though, since the Luddites and I have less in common than I with a communist. That's why I replied the way I did.

When I first popped in here all I was doing was kidding around about chemtrails. But, I knew it would go this way in the end .... it had to.

ARCHIE_CALVERT
12-29-2005, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by MLudner:
Actually, I have only directly directed two posts at you since I popped in here and the first was a joke.
The one your quoting there was more at Slick, there, and even then is partially humorous (Though not in what I was saying, just in the mannerism).

The first was the one:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gifCHEMtrails, I says!
where I'm spoofing the conspiracy theorists.

The other was the reply to the Luddite bit. You don't need to define Luddite for me, by the way. You wanna talk about minor loon sects, I'm up for it. That did grate a bit, though, since the Luddites and I have less in common than I with a communist. That's why I replied the way I did.

When I first popped in here all I was doing was kidding around about chemtrails. But, I knew it would go this way in the end .... it had to.

Fair enough... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

But I will say this‚‚ā¨¬¶ Global Dimming, caused by some extent to the high flying aircraft and the contrails they leave across this planets welkin is, according to scientific findings, a better thing to have than not. For although it could result in the death of countless citizens due to drought and famine‚‚ā¨¬¶ The cure, if we were to take it, could speed us into a natural global catastrophe, that few of us would survive‚‚ā¨¬¶

Taylortony
12-29-2005, 05:06 PM
They are only steam trails due to water condensation, the only problem really is localised heating, hell you wouldn't even blink if you saw a big steaming dog turd on the ground, so why worry about it at 36,000ft

MLudner
12-29-2005, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by SlickStick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
So, don't go there and reply with reason if you can manage it.

Pffft, why bother? You obviously need this, so I'll just move along, taking what I've learned from this and do my part as I see fit. Thanks for sharing though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Did you understand what I was saying there, Slick? It was not an insult, Dude; just a request to keep it intelligent and not do what AC did in posting that link about "Luddites" while I was writing that.

I was saying ridicule will beget ridicule. I have no problem discussing these issues and I don't hate someone for having a view divergent from mine. IMHO this entire thread is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1241.gif but until they lock it I'll converse in it in as civil a manner as y'all will allow. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess it's the manner in which you go about your opinions that is the turn-off. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

You are putting too much emphasis on the "industrialization" part of my post. It's a part of the problem, and contrails are contributing to it. Did you even read any of the articles that Archie linked in his first post? You seem to be downplaying the issue like you have oil stocks or something, lol.

Natural contributors are one thing and no one is saying the sky is falling, but there is quite a bit of merit in the results of their experiments, especially the study performed around the three days after 9/11.

My main point from my first post was that the fact that the sun's light has been dimmed, as measured at different points in the world by recent studies, has skewed the rules that were defining global warming and has thus added another variable into their equation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm saying industrialization because jets are part of that. Reread what I've posted; you're having a gut reaction to parts, but not catching it all.
Really, Global Warming has not even been proven yet .... not scientifically.

Heed, this was said by Patrick Henry during the Constitutional Convention Debates and for me it is a guide:
"Sir, it is the fortune of a free people not to be intimidated by imaginary dangers; fear is the passion of slaves."
Right up there with Shakespeare's:
"And this, above all; to thine own self be true, and it must follow - as the night the day - thou canst not then be false to any man."
And Yeshua's:
"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."
(Amongst much else that both, Yeshua in particular, said or wrote.)

Keep in mind that doomsayers have been around forever. Every generation of man has thought it was the last generation of men. It's just human nature.

If you actually study the science in all of this you will find none of it is proven yet and there is a lot of good evidence contradicting it. I have mentioned some little already.

ARCHIE_CALVERT
12-29-2005, 05:32 PM
MLudner... Be careful what you say, remember New Orleans...

SlickStick
12-29-2005, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by ARCHIE_CALVERT:
But I will say this‚‚ā¨¬¶ Global Dimming, caused by some extent to the high flying aircraft and the contrails they leave across this planets welkin is, according to scientific findings, a better thing to have than not.

I read that part, too, and thought, "Hmmm, the lesser of two evils." Interesting reads, especially the BBC link.

MLudner, I'm also not saying this will be the end of the earth or anything. I'm just going on the merits of the evidence presented in some of those studies, at this time. I shall endeavor to read further, but I'm not about extremism or gloom and doom prophecy about this issue, just because I read a few articles.

The reads and data presented were quite interesting to me, though, I will say that.

MLudner
12-29-2005, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by ARCHIE_CALVERT:
MLudner... Be careful what you say, remember New Orleans...


See? That is just the sort of thing I am talking about.

Katrina was a big hurricane. It is a myth, however, that it was exceptional. In the first 50 year of the 20th century there were more hurrincanes than in the last 55, and a higher proportion of them were Cat 4 or 5.
Galveston caught it even worse, in 1905 or so, for example.
If you think Katrina was bad, there were hurricanes from hundreds of years ago recorded to have killed 10,000 to 30,000 people.
Try telling the survivors of those hurricanes how bad Katrina was and see what a scoff you get.

p-11.cAce
12-29-2005, 09:52 PM
MLunder I'm with you in this whole argument - and the fact that Archie posted that gas turbines perform better with higher inlet temps (when the reality is the opposite) leads me to believe that he has a fundamental inability to grasp simple heat related topics http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It is a FACT that a "little ice age" took place from around 1300A.D. to the mid 1800's. It is also a FACT that as recently as the 1970's the hot button issue was global cooling as avg. global temperatures (according to NOAA who might be in the know about such things) fell from the mid-1930's well into the 1970's.
The simple fact is that mankind always over estimates his importance and impact on the world. Natural production of "greenhouse gasses" via normal biological decay and volcanic activity F A R exceeds that created by man-made activities. However even this fact misses the point - the primary causes of variations in global temps has little to do with "greenhouse gasses" and everything to do with solar activity cycles and orbital variations. Unfortunatly it is easier to blame the successful wealthy guy in his well-earned SUV for all the problems of the world (real and imagined) than something as uncontrollable as the solar cycle.

RocketDog
12-30-2005, 11:11 AM
p-11.cAce and MLudner, I'm a university professor who does research in atmospheric physics and I think you're wrong.

Solar activity is not believed to contribute significantly to the current warming, although it may have an impact in the longer term.

Two useful places to look for information:

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change: IPCC (http://www.ipcc.ch)

Realclimate - a climate blog run by some key figures in the field: realclimate (http://www.realclimate.org). This includes a good discussion of "global dimming" and solar forcing and variability.

I don't drive an SUV.

Cheers,

RocketDog.

vocatx
12-30-2005, 11:46 AM
I never ceases to amaze me what people will believe if it is claimed to be scientific. I put next to NO faith in ANY government studies. I mean, come on, they can't do the simple math needed to balance a budget! There is NO proof of either global warming or global cooling being caused in any way, shape, or form by humans.

Accurate weather records and the instruments to measure the weather have been around for less that two hundred years. The life cycle of a planet and it's sun is measured in BILLIONS of years. You can run around telling me the sky is falling all you want to, but when I was in elementary school in the early seventies, the big thing in science class was the coming ICE AGE!

I will not argue that humans do some really inane things at times. I will allow that in many places that pollution is a huge problem. Just don't tell me that we are causing the climate to change. The facts sited on emissions from volcanoes are correct. Oil and tar also seep from the ocean floor at rates much higher world wide than the worst oil spills you see on the news. It's political correctness and national jealousy taken to an extreme and people are allowing themselves to be brainwashed without taking a skeptical look at the facts. It's like the old lie about deforestation in the U.S. There are MORE trees in the U.S. now than at any time in recorded history. Or the lie about Great Spotted Owls living only in "old growth" trees. Every see the photos of them roosting in K-mart signs? How "old growth" were they?

Take everything you read with a dose of salt. Most of the environmentalists have a political agenda; the environment runs a very distant second. I am a rancher, and am reminded of that fact every time I drive to town and watch the idiots with the Green Peace bumper stickers throwing trash out their car windows in front of my place.

End of rant...move along.

MLudner
12-30-2005, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by RocketDog:
p-11.cAce and MLudner, I'm a university professor who does research in atmospheric physics and I think you're wrong.

Solar activity is not believed to contribute significantly to the current warming, although it may have an impact in the longer term.

Two useful places to look for information:

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change: IPCC (http://www.ipcc.ch)

Realclimate - a climate blog run by some key figures in the field: realclimate (http://www.realclimate.org). This includes a good discussion of "global dimming" and solar forcing and variability.

I don't drive an SUV.

Cheers,

RocketDog.

You are entirely correct that the Sun and other natural cycles are not believed to contribute significantly to the current warming....if such is actually happening.
The more pertinent question would be whether or not that belief is accurate, of course.

So, why are the ice caps melting on Mars? I'm sure natural cycles and the sun have nothing what-so-ever to do with it. Maybe it's our gigantic solar power farms. They are a mass of mirrors; maybe they're incidentally refecting a proportionately higher degree of sunlight back into space which Mars is crossing through too frequently in its orbital path and these reflections are increasing the Martian temperature, thus causing the Martian poles to melt.
Is mankind destroying Mars? Blogs shall soon appear...

I've read the data, from both sides. I am not arguing that pollution is fine and dandy and we should ignore it, or any such. I am all for finding ways to clean up, reduce emissions and waste, et cetera. These are laudable ideas. But, neither am I convinced the industrial age is going to destroy the world, either. I am not willing to destroy civilization for something that is most probably nothing more than an acorn that fell onto a chicken's head. Nor to surrender freedom and the rule of law for it either. Like most people on my side of the isle I want a reasoned approach rather than a paniced approach to the problem.
There are politics involved in this. It is no mystery why Earth Day, for example, was switched from the First Day of Spring (which made perfect sense from a natural perspective) to the 22nd of April (which makes no sense from a natural perspective, but it does make sense politically).

In addition, much of that stuff is rather far-fetched. To make matters worse, flat-out lies like the one I illustrated about the ozone holes have made me even more dubious about this bit.

The one I'm waiting to hear about is how the magnets we humans have made here on the Earth are all pointed in the wrong direction and are causing the moon's orbit to deteriorate due to magnetic deposits in its composition that are on the same polarity and all of the massive disasters that will result when the moon losses its orbital position and drifts away into space. You know, the moon's orbit is decaying......could be the magnets, you know.

MLudner
12-30-2005, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by SlickStick:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ARCHIE_CALVERT:
But I will say this‚‚ā¨¬¶ Global Dimming, caused by some extent to the high flying aircraft and the contrails they leave across this planets welkin is, according to scientific findings, a better thing to have than not.

I read that part, too, and thought, "Hmmm, the lesser of two evils." Interesting reads, especially the BBC link.

MLudner, I'm also not saying this will be the end of the earth or anything. I'm just going on the merits of the evidence presented in some of those studies, at this time. I shall endeavor to read further, but I'm not about extremism or gloom and doom prophecy about this issue, just because I read a few articles.

The reads and data presented were quite interesting to me, though, I will say that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Actually, mainly I'm just cautioning you about this matter. I'm basically trying to say there's not enough evidence to panic over yet. There are some things that can be pointed to that look mighty bad, but when placed in percepctive they often begin to rapidly pale. The evidence goes in too many different ways right now to know with certainty.

MLudner
12-30-2005, 04:49 PM
Oh, yeah!
I do drive an SUV.

neural_dream
12-30-2005, 04:50 PM
With all that I almost missed the actual point about global dimmming.
Anyway, I read the articles and I have to say they are very very interesting, especially lately that I walk the earth with my eyes turned skywards, for there I have been and there I long to return.

MLudner
12-30-2005, 05:04 PM
By the way, P-11ace.
Wow. I am pleasantly surprised and happily so.
Thanks for the good word.

BTW: a while back we had a talk and you left a thread. I did not intend that and it was not my meaning at all.

ploughman
12-30-2005, 05:04 PM
Well the only way to 'prove' global warming is to sit back and wait. 1 billion Chinese people are moving from bikes to mopeds to cars, as are 1 billion Indians, you think anyone's going to stop them? Maybe the price of oil but certainly not the Kyoto protocols. Apparrently Britain and Sweden are the only 2 European countries that are gong to be able to meet their Kyoto objectives but I don't think it'll matter at all. We live in interesting times and things will get more so. On January 1st, Russia is due to shut off gas to the Ukraine, the new Cold War. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

As to hurricanes, give it a couple of years and then try and get insurance in Florida and the Gulf Coast. That'll have them screaming in the aisle. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ARCHIE_CALVERT
12-30-2005, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by MLudner:
Oh, yeah!
I do drive an SUV.

What nationality are you MLudner...

MLudner
12-30-2005, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by vocatx:
I never ceases to amaze me what people will believe if it is claimed to be scientific. I put next to NO faith in ANY government studies. I mean, come on, they can't do the simple math needed to balance a budget! There is NO proof of either global warming or global cooling being caused in any way, shape, or form by humans.

Accurate weather records and the instruments to measure the weather have been around for less that two hundred years. The life cycle of a planet and it's sun is measured in BILLIONS of years. You can run around telling me the sky is falling all you want to, but when I was in elementary school in the early seventies, the big thing in science class was the coming ICE AGE!

I will not argue that humans do some really inane things at times. I will allow that in many places that pollution is a huge problem. Just don't tell me that we are causing the climate to change. The facts sited on emissions from volcanoes are correct. Oil and tar also seep from the ocean floor at rates much higher world wide than the worst oil spills you see on the news. It's political correctness and national jealousy taken to an extreme and people are allowing themselves to be brainwashed without taking a skeptical look at the facts. It's like the old lie about deforestation in the U.S. There are MORE trees in the U.S. now than at any time in recorded history. Or the lie about Great Spotted Owls living only in "old growth" trees. Every see the photos of them roosting in K-mart signs? How "old growth" were they?

Take everything you read with a dose of salt. Most of the environmentalists have a political agenda; the environment runs a very distant second. I am a rancher, and am reminded of that fact every time I drive to town and watch the idiots with the Green Peace bumper stickers throwing trash out their car windows in front of my place.

End of rant...move along.


You are so right about the faddish nature of these fears. Your memory of your school days are quite accurate, for in those those days it was global cooling.
Then, in the 80's, it went to global warming.
It stayed that into the 90's.
Then we had a few really cold winters.
Global cooling came back into fashion. But, this contradicted global warming. So, then it surfaced that global warming was causing global cooling.

ploughman
12-30-2005, 05:23 PM
Feckin' scientists, telling us stuff we don't want to hear and then putting stuff in orbit just when we thought they were full of it. Chroist aloive, first it was all swans are feckin' woit, then there's black 'uns, feck them too. Necks thoing oi' hear its feckin' coal dust makin' me lungs bleed, load a shoit that is, now me feckin land destroier's doin in the planet, the whole feckin planet you say, feck that, it's only one car. Whe'll hells bells and pass the parsley, use'd to be global warming, now it's global cooling, couldn't be the march of understandin' could it? Maybe it's a werk in feckin' progress and maybe' by the time they've got it figured out'll be too feckin' late.

Maybe. You'd better hope not.

MLudner
12-30-2005, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by ARCHIE_CALVERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
Oh, yeah!
I do drive an SUV.

What nationality are you MLudner... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm a Gurkha. I am writing from a remote mountain top in downtown Nepal.
My favorite pass-time aside from Il-2 is going outside and taking pot-shots at the Maoist guerillas trying to over-throw my King in the valleys and canyons below from time to time. Any that I hit I scalp with my trusty Kukri.
I have the only black, 1995 Nissan Pathfinder in town. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

MLudner
12-30-2005, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
Feckin' scientists, telling us stuff we don't want to hear and then putting stuff in orbit just when we thought they were full of it. Chroist aloive, first it was all swans are feckin' woit, then there's black 'uns, feck them too. Necks thoing oi' hear its feckin' coal dust makin' me lungs bleed, load a shoit that is, now me feckin land destroier's doin in the planet, the whole feckin planet you say, feck that, it's only one car. Whe'll hells bells and pass the parsley, use'd to be global warming, now it's global cooling, couldn't be the march of understandin' could it? Maybe it's a werk in feckin' progress and maybe' by the time they've got it figured out'll be too feckin' late.

Maybe. You'd better hope not.

I've read the data, from both sides. I am not arguing that pollution is fine and dandy and we should ignore it, or any such. I am all for finding ways to clean up, reduce emissions and waste, et cetera. These are laudable ideas. But, neither am I convinced the industrial age is going to destroy the world, either. I am not willing to destroy civilization for something that is most probably nothing more than an acorn that fell onto a chicken's head. Nor to surrender freedom and the rule of law for it either. Like most people on my side of the isle I want a reasoned approach rather than a paniced approach to the problem.
There are politics involved in this. It is no mystery why Earth Day, for example, was switched from the First Day of Spring (which made perfect sense from a natural perspective) to the 22nd of April (which makes no sense from a natural perspective, but it does make sense politically).

BTW: Which is NOT to say that we should not develop a better, clean running propulsion system. We should; it's just that there's no need to panic or enslave ourselves to acheive it.
A: Fossil fuels are a finite resource, and while reserves of them are no where near as low as the Chicken Little Mob would have us believe, they will run out in time.
B: They are dirty. While I do not believe they are destroying the world as the evidence is no where near sufficient to show this, it is definitely not healthy and we would be better-off without it.
I would rather employ a carrot rather than a stick in getting it done. Common human experience shows reward works better than punishment in matters like these.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c312/PROXIMVS/infopic.jpg

Listen.

MLudner
12-30-2005, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by MLudner:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ARCHIE_CALVERT:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MLudner:
Oh, yeah!
I do drive an SUV.

What nationality are you MLudner... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm a Gurkha. I am writing from a remote mountain top in downtown Nepal.
My favorite pass-time aside from Il-2 is going outside and taking pot-shots at the Maoist guerillas trying to over-throw my King in the valleys and canyons below from time to time. Any that I hit I scalp with my trusty Kukri.
I have the only black, 1995 Nissan Pathfinder in town. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I'm kidding. I have the grievous misfortune of being a Californian.

ploughman
12-30-2005, 05:43 PM
Funnily enough I had the good fortune to spend quite a bit of time in Nepal, about four years ago, and the principle method of transport isn't the 4x4, it's the Tata bus. Now that's a white knuckle ride.

MLudner
12-30-2005, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Ploughman:
Funnily enough I had the good fortune to spend quite a bit of time in Nepal, about four years ago, and the principle method of transport isn't the 4x4, it's the Tata bus. Now that's a white knuckle ride.


White knuckle ride? Get in cab in Seoul, just make sure you have all your religious bases covered first...

Tata buses are very colorful and often full of Maoist guerillas. They make really good targets in those poorly camoflaged and jingly things.

ploughman
12-30-2005, 05:55 PM
Sounds like you work for drum and bass. Good hunting.

neural_dream
12-30-2005, 06:20 PM
MLudner, you've written so much in this thread you even felt obliged to reply to yourself http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif.

Saunders1953
12-30-2005, 07:05 PM
the Tata bus

That sounds like my kind of bus! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

jarink
12-30-2005, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by p-11.cAce:
The simple fact is that mankind always over estimates his importance and impact on the world.

Amen.

I'm frankly amazed this thread hasn't been locked yet.

Jetbuff
12-30-2005, 09:35 PM
MLunder on the one hand you make a very good point - nature is a lot more resilient than we might think. OTOH, we aren't. The earth has been around for billions of years before us and will probably remain for billions of years after we are gone. However, as a species we are one of the few to have such a large cumulative impact as to affect things outside our eco-system. So, the question isn't are we going to stop before we destroy the earth or ourselves but are we going to change our ways before we make our lives so miserable that death will seem like a welcome reprieve?

wayno7777
12-30-2005, 10:16 PM
Cycles is what it's all about. We're on a sphere that is tilted and wobbles on it's axis. What goes around comes around. There will come a time when this earth becomes uninhabitable. And of course the sun will burn out. We just have to make the best of it and not cr@p in our own beds....

LEXX_Luthor
12-30-2005, 11:47 PM
This thread shows exactly that human caused Global Warming -- which may be happening but I doubt it personally -- is being handled as a modern organized religion -- end of world stuff -- with the normal depressive slogans. You see the exact same slogans and moral superiority claims used all over the internet about this stuff, and in western universities which, along with establishment media, are centers for organizing popular support. Thus we see the same slogans and accusations of non-belief (Heresy) used everywhere. Its fascinating to watch though. Aussum!

The most bizzare religious slogans are the ones posted by people who are so offended by nuclear weapons that they want to destroy the whole Earth -- using nuclear weapons I assume. hehe

LEXX_Luthor
12-31-2005, 12:19 AM
Ah...but the topic of contrails spreading into vast cirrus sheets and taking over the whole sky is a great topic, as well as a great topic for photography -- something I've been thinking of getting into -- sky photography. Could contrails be at least a partial cause of climate change? Generally I think not, because only a small minority of days offer the types of conditions favourable for extreme persistent contrail formation. It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that this is ignored by the popular satellite photographs of large contrail formations, which don't include information on how many or how few days this happens at any given location. Naturally, *only* the photographs taken during days and at locations of dense persistent contrail formation is used in presentation to the population.

LEXX_Luthor
12-31-2005, 01:04 AM
And, I apologize to all for my first Rant there. Some of you are having a great trade in ideas. In this thread I saw that we blamed the destruction of New Olreans on Global Warming, and we accused MLudner (religious heretic) for "forgetting" that Global Warming destroyed New Orleans. It just seems to me that the political leaders of New Orleans who ignored decades of warnings from civil engineers are probably the ones most benefitting from us diverting attention away to the more fuzzy and "safe" topic of Global Warming. Indeed, CO2 as a completely un-traceable "pollutant" diverts our attention from toxic waste dumping all over the world. Global Warming(tm) may be the best cover to bury the topic of traditional toxic waste dumping.

Was Enron among the most active corporate lobbyists for the Kyoto Treaty? Something I heard, and as Enron was an energy trader, it would make sense.