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MB_Avro_UK
07-08-2006, 06:17 PM
Hi all,

Was the RAF raid against the German Ruhr Dams in 1943 an example of the best precision bombing in WW2?

http://www.dambusters.org.uk/

It was unique and required both skill and bravery. Almost half the crews were killed.

Was it worth it?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Nick_Toznost
07-08-2006, 07:13 PM
You may well be opening a can of worms with this topic.....the raid killed more POWS than Nazis etc, as that link begins to suggest.

I certainly agree though that the raid was very significant. Even in 1943 the war could have gone either way. An important allied propaganda victory if anything.

I've had a few tonight so I'll keep it brief before I write too much rubbish.

SALUTE TO THOSE WHO BRAVELY LOST THEIR LIVES IN 617 SQUADRON.

Peter Jackson claims to be remaking the Dambusters film as one of his next major movie projects. Initially I was horrified at the news as the original movie is not one that needs remaking in my opinion.

He said though that he was remaking the movie (allegedly) because of his Anglophiliac leanings and that British role in the war was being gradually nudged out the way by Hollywood.

Looking forward to it. Hopefully he will have renamed the dog.

Viper2005_
07-08-2006, 09:14 PM
I think that the raid was worth it for several reasons.

It was a victory, when victories were needed.

It demonstrated an extremely impressive technological capability, which raised our standing amongst the Allies, and rather frightened the Axis, diverting AAA and fighter assets from other fronts to defend the Dams and associated Industry.

617 squadron was formed specially for the Dams raid, but it participated in many more valuable operations during WWII and beyond, right up to the present day. No Dams raid = no 617.

The Dams raid also proved the capability of the Lancaster to accept modification; the Dams raid paved the way for the use of other unconventional weapons such as Grand Slam and Blockbuster later in the war.

As for the film, I hope they're brave enough not to rename the dog. The dog's name is simply an historical fact.

Changing it because we don't like it would be irresponsible, since the next step along that road is to simply forget that name and the racism with which it is associated.

If we don't learn from the mistakes of history, we are destined to repeat them...

Lucius_Esox
07-08-2006, 11:16 PM
Agree with all that said above... I forgot the name of the dog but of course it was the codeword for a succesfull release/attack, not sure which?

?

p1ngu666
07-08-2006, 11:53 PM
imo the dams raid was more down to piloting, and crewmanship than bombing, atleast normal bombing.

later actions by 617 where better in terms of bombing preciosion etc.

DmdSeeker
07-09-2006, 02:38 AM
"Was the RAF raid against the German Ruhr Dams in 1943 an example of the best precision bombing in WW2?"

No; although they were doubtless an example of the best precision flying.

Most of the "upkeeps" did; after all; miss.

I would suggest the "Tallboy" and "Grandslam" raids done, I believe, by the same squadrons were better examples of precision bombing as it's usually understood; along, of course, with the immortal Mosquito raids on the Gestapo facilities and prisons.

panther3485
07-09-2006, 03:09 AM
Originally posted by Viper2005_:
I think that the raid was worth it for several reasons.

It was a victory, when victories were needed.

It demonstrated an extremely impressive technological capability, which raised our standing amongst the Allies, and rather frightened the Axis, diverting AAA and fighter assets from other fronts to defend the Dams and associated Industry.

617 squadron was formed specially for the Dams raid, but it participated in many more valuable operations during WWII and beyond, right up to the present day. No Dams raid = no 617.

The Dams raid also proved the capability of the Lancaster to accept modification; the Dams raid paved the way for the use of other unconventional weapons such as Grand Slam and Blockbuster later in the war.

As for the film, I hope they're brave enough not to rename the dog. The dog's name is simply an historical fact.

Changing it because we don't like it would be irresponsible, since the next step along that road is to simply forget that name and the racism with which it is associated.

If we don't learn from the mistakes of history, we are destined to repeat them...

In general, I think I'd have to say that I pretty much agree with this post.

I join the ranks of those who are hoping the dog's name is not changed, but I think those of us that share this view will most likely be disappointed, because they almost certainly will bow to PC pressure and change it. Of course, one way to get around this - a compromise if you like - would be to not use any particular name. 'Here, boy!' would suffice?

As for the codewords used historically, the same could be applied. Use the correct ones or don't use any?

These concerns aside, I guess it's not a bad idea to do this movie again, in colour, provided they don't make a mess of it. I'm sure you can all guess what I mean by that, so no need to elaborate.

Addressing the original question, I believe the Dams Raid was worthwhile; not so much for any direct military outcome there and then, but for the reasons already posted here by others.

Plus, it was - and remains - a truly amazing and inspirational feat of arms IMHO. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

At the same time, of course, we should never forget the other side of the balance sheet - the deaths that were caused. Such is War. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


Best regards, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
panther3485

FI-Skipper
07-09-2006, 04:46 AM
I agree that the Dams raid was worth it and also that there should be no name changes in the remake.The fact of the matter is historically these names/codewords were used.If it offends you , don't watch the film.

I'd also like to point out it was the high point of the career of one of our best leaders ,Guy Gibson.He went on to win the VC for his leadership during the raid but was killed a year later over Holland.His book , Enemy Coast Ahead is a good read of how 617 came into being and the attack on the dams itself is interesting from his perspective.

I Have a free Dam Buster documentary I got off the internet which shows old footage of ibson with the king and his crews afetr the raid and then the priemier of the film.I'd be happy to send this on to anyone.PM me if you are interested.

Skipper

leitmotiv
07-09-2006, 09:20 AM
The pity was that they knew ahead of time the Upkeep bomb would certainly fail against the earth dam, and that, for this reason, the mission would be prevented from being a complete success (knocking out all electrical power to the Ruhr). One should remember that the Ruhr campaign was successful---it forced a disruption in supply as the Germans had to disperse production throughout the country. This mission was executed when Bomber Command was fully committed to destroying production in the Ruhr, and, thus, was part of the greater plan. The sobering result, from the point of view of 617 Squadron casualties, was that the Command could not afford to lose so many picked crews in one night. Harris had been against forming specialty Groups, like the Pathfinders, and specialty Squadrons, like 617 because he thought talent should not be concentrated but dispersed throughout the command. As it turned out, the Pathfinders were useful for a time, until Groups like No5 perfected their own means of target finding and marking which were better than the Pathfinders, and 617 Squadron proved to be a very useful special operations unit. Was the raid worth it? Certainly. If there was a chance of knocking out German production, it had to be done.

DmdSeeker
07-09-2006, 09:51 AM
Something many may not know... Guy Gibson scored a kill against (I belive) a Dornier while flying the Hampden!

leitmotiv
07-09-2006, 09:55 AM
Gibson was one heck of a bomber pilot. I was amazed by his story of their trying to chuck bombs into railway tunnels in Hampdens in the dead of night!

p1ngu666
07-09-2006, 03:32 PM
think he had 3-4 kills. if he had been more greedy in claiming, he would of been a ace http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

he was a really good pilot, but most of all was his "press on" attitude.

Taylortony
07-09-2006, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
Agree with all that said above... I forgot the name of the dog but of course it was the codeword for a succesfull release/attack, not sure which?

?

Code name and dogs name was N igge r.......... and I hope it DOES STAY IN THE NEW FILM.

It was simply a name and had No racial conoctations whatsoever,

Indeed until WW2 and the coming of the US troops and commonwealth troops, people of other races or creeds were something of a rarity in the UK.......
There is PC and PC, but to change history simply to be politically correct on a word which had no bearing to it's modern missuse would be a gross travesty of history.........

Its a bit like saying "I am Gay" today, it means far more today than its original context in meaning that you were happy.........

Myself, I have friends of many cultures races and religions in the UK and see them as equals and above that as good friends, both myself and they cannot fathom the reasoning behind changing it.................

Bo_Nidle
07-09-2006, 08:06 PM
A lot has been written and filmed about the Dambusters raid, an awful lot on these forums.

As for precision bombing I would venture that it was an extremely good example. The "Upkeep" bombs had to be delivered at an absolutely specific height, speed and distance from the target and also aimed at precise location on the dams. All this at night and against considerable opposition at some of the dams.

It may not have brought the destruction that was atticipated but it did nevertheless cause considerable damage to Ruhr industry. It also had the effect of tieing up Nazi rescources in rebuilding industries and the dams themselves as well as tieing down further troops in strengthening the dams defences and those at other dams in case of another attack.

Most importantly it was a terrific morale booster to the Allies and their civilian populations in showing that British technology and design were still a formidable force, that the Germans could be given a bloody nose on their own territory and it was a remarkable example of Allied airmanship and personal courage.

It has become ingrained into the British psyche and has become part of our nations history.

As for the film remake I have said before that i am all for it as long as it is not butchered by the Political Correctness cadres and the effects are state of the art.(And we do not have a Yank playing Gibson. Nothing against the Americans but Gibson was one of ours and should be played by one of ours, warts and all)

I have long been an admirer of the raid, I have seen the grave of Gibsons dog at RAF Scampton and have Brickhills book in my collection. But the print "Breaching the dams" by Nicholas Trudgian, signed by some of the Dambusters themselves is my pride and joy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

http://www.painterskeys.com/clickbacks/images/featured_artist/nicolas_trudgian/nt_lancaster_big.jpg

A remarkable raid, devised and carried out by remarkable men.

panther3485
07-10-2006, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by Bo_Nidle:
A lot has been written and filmed about the Dambusters raid, an awful lot on these forums.

As for precision bombing I would venture that it was an extremely good example. The "Upkeep" bombs had to be delivered at an absolutely specific height, speed and distance from the target and also aimed at precise location on the dams. All this at night and against considerable opposition at some of the dams.

It may not have brought the destruction that was atticipated but it did nevertheless cause considerable damage to Ruhr industry. It also had the effect of tieing up Nazi rescources in rebuilding industries and the dams themselves as well as tieing down further troops in strengthening the dams defences and those at other dams in case of another attack.

Most importantly it was a terrific morale booster to the Allies and their civilian populations in showing that British technology and design were still a formidable force, that the Germans could be given a bloody nose on their own territory and it was a remarkable example of Allied airmanship and personal courage.

It has become ingrained into the British psyche and has become part of our nations history.

As for the film remake I have said before that i am all for it as long as it is not butchered by the Political Correctness cadres and the effects are state of the art.(And we do not have a Yank playing Gibson. Nothing against the Americans but Gibson was one of ours and should be played by one of ours, warts and all)

I have long been an admirer of the raid, I have seen the grave of Gibsons dog at RAF Scampton and have Brickhills book in my collection. But the print "Breaching the dams" by Nicholas Trudgian, signed by some of the Dambusters themselves is my pride and joy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

http://www.painterskeys.com/clickbacks/images/featured_artist/nicolas_trudgian/nt_lancaster_big.jpg

A remarkable raid, devised and carried out by remarkable men.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Top post. Couldn't have said it better myself.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif


Best regards, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
panther3485

FI-Skipper
07-10-2006, 05:10 AM
Thats a fantastic print http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

R988z
07-10-2006, 12:43 PM
It also gave Barnes Wallis some proper credibility and a lot more freedom to come up with arguably more successful weapons like the tall boy and grand slam. 617sq also went on the develop some precision night bombing techniques, with mossies and later mustangs as pathfinder or spotter aircraft, in an age where carpet bombing large areas in the hope of hitting something was the norm, surely they were a glimpse of the future with precision bombing select targets with care taken to minimise civilian casualties, for example the raid on the factory in France where they specifically avoided bombing the canteen area where the workers were.

It would be great if Peter Jackson (assuming he is making the film) tried to show a bit more than just the Dambusters raid, some of the later raids and bombs are just as interesting, and we know PJ loves to make mega long movies with sequals, here's hoping (yes I know it's very unlikely). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Capt.England
07-10-2006, 02:06 PM
I agree with keeping the dogs name. That's history and to change it is going over the top in P.C. loopyless. Thank god the dog was not named after a man called Sam who smelled! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

(think about it)

Anyway, I was just watching the film the other day and thought that Richard Todd looks a bit like Harry Enfield from certain angles. I can just see him now as Guy Gibson in the new version.

MB_Avro_UK
07-10-2006, 03:11 PM
hey Bo_Nidle

Check your PMs.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro_UK