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Bartman.
05-13-2009, 03:47 AM
Trimming off pressures ... is it possible or is there a program that will simulate foreward and back pressure though a stick like in real life flying ? or is that surface pressure is not modelled in il2 that maybe we will see in future sim's ?

Bartman .

Tully__
05-13-2009, 06:05 AM
With a non-ffb joystick, you can trim so the joystick is centered when you're flying with your aircraft trimmed for your current flight mode (level/climbing/decending) if trim is available on the aircraft you're flying. For force feedback sticks I think it's modelled more or less correctly but I've never used one so couldn't say for sure.

Bartman.
05-13-2009, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by Tully__:
With a non-ffb joystick, you can trim so the joystick is centered when you're flying with your aircraft trimmed for your current flight mode (level/climbing/decending) if trim is available on the aircraft you're flying. For force feedback sticks I think it's modelled more or less correctly but I've never used one so couldn't say for sure.


Thanks tully understood but what i'm getting at and i'm sure you understand is when basic flying you trim off pressures on your control column by way of the trim wheel holding your control column with two fingers and trim back or forwards until the pressure on the elevator is trimmed neutral enabling you to virtually fly hands off until you either climb or descend again which then requires further trimming for straight and level flight that feature in game isn't modelled in il2 , it doesn't mater wether you have ff or non ff joysticks pressures over control surfaces aren't modelled , sure you can trim certain aircraft straight and level but you still don't have the sensation or feel for that matter of pressure on the elevator , in real flight you can release the control column and and roll the trim wheel aft or fwd and your control column will move in the direction your trimming but in game you trim with keyboard and your stick wont move and you don't feel stick/control pressure , so ultimately my question is there a stick or program that simulates fwd & back surface pressures or will this feature be modelled in future sims ? .

Bartmam.

M_Gunz
05-13-2009, 09:09 AM
Your joystick has limits and the system deals with that.
The interface is force-based, strength-oriented, how is that possible without back-force from the controls?

Hello? Trim for level or near-level, hands off, feed in trim and see if the plane doesn't fly differently.

OTOH the interface is set for the pull on the springs of the stick simulating those control back-forces.
Wherever your joystick is at center *is* the neutral trim point.

No, the average joystick cannot be the same as a real control stick.

Bartman.
05-14-2009, 03:38 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Your joystick has limits and the system deals with that.
The interface is force-based, strength-oriented, how is that possible without back-force from the controls?

Hello? Trim for level or near-level, hands off, feed in trim and see if the plane doesn't fly differently.

OTOH the interface is set for the pull on the springs of the stick simulating those control back-forces.
Wherever your joystick is at center *is* the neutral trim point.

No, the average joystick cannot be the same as a real control stick.

Is english your first language ? or is it your ignorance ? Don't want to sound offencive but the reason i ask as the above reply i can not make head nor tail of what you are on about .

My post is based on basic flying controls pure and simple and how best the community could help in making il2 or future sims and input peripherals more realistic in relation to surface pressures and trimming , if you haven't flown any real time then i can understand your ignorance you obviously would not understand any of what i have posted though i did get the last bit of 'your views are your own' but sorry i ain't getting inline for any of it iv'e read enough .

Bartman .

doogerie
05-14-2009, 04:31 AM
I think if somone reall consontrated on making a force feedback stick he could probly moddel trim pritty wellof course i have not flowen witha faorce feedback stick (I may have to get one) okh yeah and ifound that if you have problems withtrim being stewn all over the kebord i found it helps to have it on the arrow keys here is how I have it mapped

trim Up = up arrow
trim Down=Down arrow
trim left= leaft arrow
Trin Right = right arrow

M_Gunz
05-14-2009, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by Bartman.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Your joystick has limits and the system deals with that.
The interface is force-based, strength-oriented, how is that possible without back-force from the controls?

Hello? Trim for level or near-level, hands off, feed in trim and see if the plane doesn't fly differently.

OTOH the interface is set for the pull on the springs of the stick simulating those control back-forces.
Wherever your joystick is at center *is* the neutral trim point.

No, the average joystick cannot be the same as a real control stick.

Is english your first language ? or is it your ignorance ? Don't want to sound offencive but the reason i ask as the above reply i can not make head nor tail of what you are on about .

My post is based on basic flying controls pure and simple and how best the community could help in making il2 or future sims and input peripherals more realistic in relation to surface pressures and trimming , if you haven't flown any real time then i can understand your ignorance you obviously would not understand any of what i have posted though i did get the last bit of 'your views are your own' but sorry i ain't getting inline for any of it iv'e read enough .

Bartman . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My first language is logic and I grew up speaking mostly English. When I took my SAT in 1974 my verbal score was 650.
I haven't gone totally stupid since then either.

BTW, I have flown real planes and do know about trim, electric and manual. That was back in the 80's. Were you born yet?

And if you don't like my tag line then tough, it's there for certain other people of which you are not one of.

If you want to make sense of what I wrote you will first have to drop your notions that hold you back and take a fresh
look at what you are dealing with.

In the real plane, where the stick goes when you release it is a matter of trim and backforces from the control surfaces
AS YOU NOTED. Move the trim and the stick will push to a new place.

But you CAN'T GET THAT with a toy joystick. And the toy joystick has another problem: it is short and has a short throw.
Do you understand any of the implications that come from that? Do you need help there?

What Maddox Games did to allay some of the limitations of toy joysticks was to make the stick interface "strength-based".

When you pull on your toy joystick, the pressure you feel on your fingers (or tightly gripped fist) is an analogue to
how much strength the virtual pilot of the virtual airplane is applying to the stick.

It is NOT about the POSITION of the toy joystick relating to the POSITION of the virtual joystick. Forget any ideas of
positional matching, that's not how IL2 works and it is good because it gets past much of the short-travel of the toy
joystick most players, probably including you, use.

The whole sliders setup is just to allow you to customize the force your hand feels depending on what toy joystick and
PC and You combination you have as well as everyone else's.

If you can get the idea of the "strength-based" (as per Oleg in 2002) interface then it should become VERY EASY to see
that control backforces are indeed well modeled in IL2 since without that the system would not work at all.

If you can't figure that out then get someone else to help you. It's not my command of the language, it's your inability
to grasp the ideas put forth.

YES THERE ARE CONTROL BACKFORCES MODELED IN IL2. NO, THE SYSTEM DOES NOT NEED "FIXING" TO MEET YOUR VIEWS. YOU NEED TO
CHANGE YOUR VIEW TO UNDERSTAND THAT.

Skoshi Tiger
05-14-2009, 05:41 AM
On a normal joystick, when your simulated aircraft is in trim the stick is centred. (Spring tension is equal in all directions)

In a real aircraft you trim the aircraft and the stick stays in the position that you want it to be in.

So "if" a force feedback joystick works like a real aircraft joystick (I'm not counting the modern fly-by-wire the sticks in the modern jets by the way) the motors applying the force to the stick would keep it in the position that you are trimming for and it would take effort to put the stick in any other position.

It's prity much what M_Gunz said if I'm not mistaken???? (....although I have (and more than likely will be again) been wrong in the past....)

M_Gunz
05-14-2009, 06:12 AM
Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
On a normal joystick, when your simulated aircraft is in trim the stick is centred. (Spring tension is equal in all directions)

In a real aircraft you trim the aircraft and the stick stays in the position that you want it to be in.

So "if" a force feedback joystick works like a real aircraft joystick (I'm not counting the modern fly-by-wire the sticks in the modern jets by the way) the motors applying the force to the stick would keep it in the position that you are trimming for and it would take effort to put the stick in any other position.

It's prity much what M_Gunz said if I'm not mistaken???? (....although I have (and more than likely will be again) been wrong in the past....)

That's the thing Skoshi, there isn't enough throw on a regular FFB stick to get away with it.

IL2 joystick is entirely force/strength based as far as I can determine. Not position-based at all.
When my $100 on big sale toy joystick (X-52) is at center then it means my pilot is putting no force on the controls.
It means nothing else.
In the real plane it is the same as letting go of the stick.
Where the control surfaces end up is determined by the forces on those controls and the trim state.
My toy joystick is only tied into that position if I move my toy joystick off center and then the force of the virtual
pilot commanded by my toy joystick is added to the force-balance in the model and the control surface(s) move.

If it was a matter of position of my toy stick relating to position of the model control surfaces then changes in speed
of the model plane would affect that relation just how? The second it becomes a force-relationship the position-only
relation is mostly if not totally lost, in older games you'd hit a limit and probably not even know it IF it was there.
Find an old sim where in a hard move pulling more than say 3/4 stick makes no difference and you've found a position-based
stick interface with pilot strength limits.

Many ideas do not relate to words-only very well at all. That's why most technical people use more than words alone.
Somehow I think that you do as well.

Bartman.
05-15-2009, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bartman.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Your joystick has limits and the system deals with that.
The interface is force-based, strength-oriented, how is that possible without back-force from the controls?

Hello? Trim for level or near-level, hands off, feed in trim and see if the plane doesn't fly differently.

OTOH the interface is set for the pull on the springs of the stick simulating those control back-forces.
Wherever your joystick is at center *is* the neutral trim point.

No, the average joystick cannot be the same as a real control stick.

Is english your first language ? or is it your ignorance ? Don't want to sound offencive but the reason i ask as the above reply i can not make head nor tail of what you are on about .

My post is based on basic flying controls pure and simple and how best the community could help in making il2 or future sims and input peripherals more realistic in relation to surface pressures and trimming , if you haven't flown any real time then i can understand your ignorance you obviously would not understand any of what i have posted though i did get the last bit of 'your views are your own' but sorry i ain't getting inline for any of it iv'e read enough .

Bartman . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My first language is logic and I grew up speaking mostly English. When I took my SAT in 1974 my verbal score was 650.
I haven't gone totally stupid since then either.

BTW, I have flown real planes and do know about trim, electric and manual. That was back in the 80's. Were you born yet?

And if you don't like my tag line then tough, it's there for certain other people of which you are not one of.

If you want to make sense of what I wrote you will first have to drop your notions that hold you back and take a fresh
look at what you are dealing with.

In the real plane, where the stick goes when you release it is a matter of trim and backforces from the control surfaces
AS YOU NOTED. Move the trim and the stick will push to a new place.

But you CAN'T GET THAT with a toy joystick. And the toy joystick has another problem: it is short and has a short throw.
Do you understand any of the implications that come from that? Do you need help there?

What Maddox Games did to allay some of the limitations of toy joysticks was to make the stick interface "strength-based".

When you pull on your toy joystick, the pressure you feel on your fingers (or tightly gripped fist) is an analogue to
how much strength the virtual pilot of the virtual airplane is applying to the stick.

It is NOT about the POSITION of the toy joystick relating to the POSITION of the virtual joystick. Forget any ideas of
positional matching, that's not how IL2 works and it is good because it gets past much of the short-travel of the toy
joystick most players, probably including you, use.

The whole sliders setup is just to allow you to customize the force your hand feels depending on what toy joystick and
PC and You combination you have as well as everyone else's.

If you can get the idea of the "strength-based" (as per Oleg in 2002) interface then it should become VERY EASY to see
that control backforces are indeed well modeled in IL2 since without that the system would not work at all.

If you can't figure that out then get someone else to help you. It's not my command of the language, it's your inability
to grasp the ideas put forth.

YES THERE ARE CONTROL BACKFORCES MODELED IN IL2. NO, THE SYSTEM DOES NOT NEED "FIXING" TO MEET YOUR VIEWS. YOU NEED TO
CHANGE YOUR VIEW TO UNDERSTAND THAT. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A plain and simple post on surface pressures and what do i get .... another egotistical diatribe .

If we have any moderators reading Please! delete my post i'm fed up shaking my head .

Bartman .

rnzoli
05-15-2009, 03:17 AM
I am not going to read through all the above, but I learnt recently from a very good post:

- the real stick remains in deflected position when trimmed, because the trimming surfaces add forces that help you keep in that deflected position

- the IL-2 joystick (including FFB sticks) remain centered when trimmed, because it seems that trimming adds additional deflection position or deflection force to the game, which helps you to avoid pulling the stick away from that centered position

- theoretically it would be possible to have zero force on FFB stick in a deflected position (FFB USB standards knows the term "Centering force to a specific deflection position"), but non-FFB sticks have zero force position ONLY when centered.

*edit* I think that poster was referring to Lock-On, where the trimming is properly implemented? IIRC.

orville07
05-15-2009, 04:03 AM
Gunz, aren't you getting a wee bit too old for "toys"??? Heheheh. I'm telling Santa not to bring you anymore....Grow up!! (Jk!!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

Seriously though, I think it is modelled well in the helicoptor Sim Black Shark, where the "Cyclic" (your TOY stick http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) does stay in the trimmed position, though its obviously completely different to this sim. But as I am not an aircraft engineer, Toy stick designer, or a trained aerodynamics expert like 99% of people on these forums.....(and could really care less), I'm out of here!

PS please don't throw your TOYS out of the Pram, Gentlemen, "Its only a game"! (TM) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Bartman.
05-15-2009, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:
I am not going to read through all the above, but I learnt recently from a very good post:

- the real stick remains in deflected position when trimmed, because the trimming surfaces add forces that help you keep in that deflected position

- the IL-2 joystick (including FFB sticks) remain centered when trimmed, because it seems that trimming adds additional deflection position or deflection force to the game, which helps you to avoid pulling the stick away from that centered position

- theoretically it would be possible to have zero force on FFB stick in a deflected position (FFB USB standards knows the term "Centering force to a specific deflection position"), but non-FFB sticks have zero force position ONLY when centered.

*edit* I think that poster was referring to Lock-On, where the trimming is properly implemented? IIRC.

Probably but i'm not sure as iv'e never simmed with lock on .

Bartman .

Tully__
05-15-2009, 06:35 AM
Bartman, M_Gunz, inappropriate on both your parts. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
Play nice please and leave the intelligence assessments to the NSA or CIA. Remember that the no flaming (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3971030057#III) rule applies just as much to the responder as the original flamer.

M_Gunz
05-15-2009, 09:20 AM
Originally posted by orville07:
Gunz, aren't you getting a wee bit too old for "toys"??? Heheheh. I'm telling Santa not to bring you anymore....Grow up!! (Jk!!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

Seriously though, I think it is modelled well in the helicoptor Sim Black Shark, where the "Cyclic" (your TOY stick http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) does stay in the trimmed position, though its obviously completely different to this sim. But as I am not an aircraft engineer, Toy stick designer, or a trained aerodynamics expert like 99% of people on these forums.....(and could really care less), I'm out of here!

PS please don't throw your TOYS out of the Pram, Gentlemen, "Its only a game"! (TM) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Haha.

Tell you what. Go handle the real thing and then look at your PC control stick.

M_Gunz
05-15-2009, 09:27 AM
IL2 does model stick forces. That's how it works and only how it works.
If trying to explain why gets such a response then why bother, let the false claims rule or be accused of ego!

So many can't-be-bothered's with their untested and unproved ideas just out to fix what works better than any other,
but at least they don't have ego problems that might blind them to how the PC SIMULATION actually works.

Tully, please can you explain it to him? I am sure you know well enough.

orville07
05-15-2009, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by orville07:
Gunz, aren't you getting a wee bit too old for "toys"??? Heheheh. I'm telling Santa not to bring you anymore....Grow up!! (Jk!!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

Seriously though, I think it is modelled well in the helicoptor Sim Black Shark, where the "Cyclic" (your TOY stick http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) does stay in the trimmed position, though its obviously completely different to this sim. But as I am not an aircraft engineer, Toy stick designer, or a trained aerodynamics expert like 99% of people on these forums.....(and could really care less), I'm out of here!

PS please don't throw your TOYS out of the Pram, Gentlemen, "Its only a game"! (TM) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Haha.

Tell you what. Go handle the real thing and then look at your PC control stick. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehehe. True Gunz, but from where I'm standing the Cougar FSSB R2 isnt too far off! (Long live Falcon 4!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )
The thing that makes me laugh however is the irony of some of these deathly serious and solemn discussions, about a GAME which is obviously never going to be real. Lets face it people, we are all over grown kids pretending to be fighter jocks, but why not, its fun!! Long may it continue, and who wants to grow up anyway? Its crap, and if Tom Hanks in "Big" had any sense he would have stayed where he was! Hahaha http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

M_Gunz
05-15-2009, 11:55 AM
Because I'd rather not see the best series of flight sims yet turned into another arcade game?
Because I hope that the maker of this series doesn't give up and go find other work?
Because the idea of Micro$oft dominating the flight sim genre gives me the chills?

I can build the most detailed model car using the best materials available and pour $1,000,000 into the project.
But it's still a toy. Granted it'd be one H of a toy.

I compare this thing on my desktop with the short throw and the springs, hats and buttons, even the throttle quadrant
to a real working control column with far less bells and whistles but full throw and it behaves the way it should,
the word that comes to my mind is toy. It's short to type so I keep using it to differentiate between the thing on
my desk from the thing in the plane. If anyone feels insulted by that or feels I am punishing them then they should
take another look or something, I am not. I am just trying to make sure that which stick I mention does not get
confused with the other and keep to mind the limitations imposed by the thing on the desktop.

I've been playing computer flight sims of one kind or another since about 1981 or 82. Until about 10 years ago they
were all more arcade than not but that's what we had. One thing I learned by about 1992 was for every new sim, I
should take a step back and try to understand what the makers had in mind rather than trying to make it fit what I
had already learned. In doing that I have learned a lot more than I would have otherwise.

Back in 2001-2002 I worked on learning to understand the way that IL2 was meant to work. Lucky for me that Oleg
Maddox was very forthcoming back then. Between posts and email exchanges I saw how the stick interface works and
to be honest, at first I didn't really appreciate it and yes, I asked for change that good thing never happened.
The more I learned and checked against what had come before, the more I appreciate what they have done except for
some aspects of the trim I would still have different - but since I did not make the system, I lay that aside.

The stick in IL2 is *all* about feel of forces. It is completely force-based, trim and all. That is does not
behave as a real control stick does in terms of position is a matter of hardware limits and solution to those.

I salute Maddox Games for the ingeniousness of their solution, their ability to think outside the box and hope
for small improvement of trim in SOW, to have the trim work when button or key is pressed and stop when released
would make me very happy. I understand that it was too much to wedge into the IL2 code as was explained and accept
that.

BTW, if you think the Cougar is good then find the threads on some of the homebuilt's here. Feheler's especially!
His and at least one other are full sized and based on automobile U-joint. One of those made FFB could make a
very good works-the-same-as-real user-joystick if there was a sim that would drive it properly.

Tully__
05-16-2009, 04:22 AM
Originally posted by Bartman.:

A plain and simple post on surface pressures and what do i get .... another egotistical diatribe .

Here, let me have a go.

In the IL2 series, the game doesn't translate your joystick movement directly into control movement. It takes your joystick movement as an indication of how much force the pilot is applying to the virtual joystick, up to a fixed maximum. If I recall correctly the maximum is somewhere around 50 lbs force.

From your posts here I suspect that you already know that as airspeed increases, the pilot is required to apply greater force to the controls to achieve the same control deflection. In most (if not all) the aircraft we're flying in this sim, the force required to reach full control deflection is beyond the average pilot's ability at very high speeds. At these speeds, full deflection of your joystick will not achieve full control deflection in the game, only the control deflection that would be achieved by applying 50 lbs force to the controls of the real aircraft.

From the way the sim behaves, I suspect that the maximum achievable control force is scaled down at speeds below those where 50 lbs force is more than necessary for full control deflection. If this were not the case we'd be achieving full control deflection at low speeds with very small joystick inputs and the aircraft would be very difficult to fly at these speeds.

As for trim, in real aircraft trim provides aerodynamic force to assist the pilot so that if a small control deflection is required to hold the aircraft in trim at a certain speed the aerodynamic force of the trim tabs holds the controls there instead of the pilot having to tire himself out.
In the game, the joytick position represents the force applied by the pilot, NOT the position of the virtual joystick. This means when you trim correctly in the game, the force required by the pilot is zero and the joystick position required for zero force is the centered position. With this game control model, the game behaviour matches what we'd expect from correctly modelled control surface pressures.

As I said in my first reply earlier, I'm not sure if FFB joysticks use the "return to centre" model or the "maintain control position" model you'd expect from a mehanical coupling instead of a force coupling.

FoolTrottel
05-16-2009, 05:25 AM
In my experience, FFB sticks use "return to centre".

While trimming the stick does not move, the forces do not change.

Similar to non-FFB sticks.

Tully__
05-16-2009, 06:19 AM
Thanks FT

M_Gunz
05-16-2009, 06:01 PM
In IL2, people should always regard their own joystick center as "the zero force position".
Just where that is, is it really so important as long as it's not in your gut?

BillSwagger
05-17-2009, 01:48 AM
From what i can tell, i can trim off of pressures.
I dont use FFB, but if i'm trying to level out, and my nose wants to go up, i push forward on the stick for level flight, then as i trim i gradually release off the stick until im "hands off" or "center" or what ever name its called.

Not sure if thats what you were trying to describe.

M_Gunz
05-17-2009, 02:04 AM
That is about the best you can do and what a long time pilot who is a member told me years ago.
He put his trim on one of his stick hats so it's right there like electric trim on a plane yoke.

You've gotten it as right as can be. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

rnzoli
05-17-2009, 07:19 AM
Sorry Gunz, absolutely not true for players with FFB sticks. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

With FFB turned on, the game could, and I think also should, switch to the "centering force to a deflected position", not centering it to the geometrical center.

FFB stick users are slightly mistreated by this game, and it's valid for a number issues, e.g, turbulence, or multipe FFB controller use (separate channeling of airflow forces, and other effect forces, e.g., gun shake, turbulence etc.) or the implementation of reaching force limits. I can't recall any improvement in this by Oleg since 2001, and this is definitely an area, where the sim's age starts to show very badly!

The big problem with centering FFB sticks to the geometrical middle position is that you don't see that way, how much extra stick throw is remaining for your command.

So you might be flying at high speed level, you push the stick forward to avoid climbing, then you trim forward. In RL your stick should remain pushed forward, and the FFB sticks should also remain centered to this forward point, reminding you that you only have a rather limited forward movement available to you at this flight regime. But since it gets centered back to the middle, you might belive - wrongly - that you have half the full throw awailable for forward and backward also.

Same story with landing approaches - you pull the stick and trim up, and you no longer have the same stick throw that you think... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

M_Gunz
05-17-2009, 10:08 AM
Should?

The big problem with centering FFB sticks to the geometrical middle position is that you don't see that way, how much extra stick throw is remaining for your command.

That would be fine for a position-based stick wouldn't it?

What Maddox Games has done with force-basing is to effectively give desktop joysticks a wider throw.
The whole approach is completely outside of position so why would he cross that?

What you see in your joystick is not stick throw left but pilot strength left.
Where pilot strength is enough to more than enough for full throw (sitting on the tarmac or flying very
slow) you get the closest thing to position-based movement but once the speed piles up position-basing
especially with trim moving that center forces the accuracy of control to scale down to smaller and
smaller physical movements -- you'd lose fine control ability that should come with better use of trim.

Sure you can see stick throw left with position-based control but then when stick forces get beyond
what the pilot can handle you don't see the point where his strength runs out unless FFB can
hold the stick immobile perhaps? And how would you see that before reaching it?

rnzoli
05-18-2009, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Should?

The big problem with centering FFB sticks to the geometrical middle position is that you don't see that way, how much extra stick throw is remaining for your command.

That would be fine for a position-based stick wouldn't it?

What Maddox Games has done with force-basing is to effectively give desktop joysticks a wider throw.
The whole approach is completely outside of position so why would he cross that?
Should. Because joysticks are also improving, and besides the average desktop joystick, the very same community he thanked on the IL-2 '46 cover is famous for crazy home-built cockpits and controllers. IIRC they were working on improving joystick control in '46 due to the jets. I have no problem with "commercializing" the joystick control to suit 99% of the players, but at the same time, I think it is not nice to slap the 1% in the face - the hard core pit builders, with long-throw sticks, trying to get it as real as possible...


Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Where pilot strength is enough to more than enough for full throw (sitting on the tarmac or flying very
slow) you get the closest thing to position-based movement but once the speed piles up position-basing
especially with trim moving that center forces the accuracy of control to scale down to smaller and
smaller physical movements -- you'd lose fine control ability that should come with better use of trim. Not really, because the FFB centering forces also become stronger, so you can't yank the stick easily anymore, the same force on the FFB stick results in less movement = accuracy remains.


Originally posted by M_Gunz:
Sure you can see stick throw left with position-based control but then when stick forces get beyond
what the pilot can handle you don't see the point where his strength runs out
To be precise, you can't see in the current implementation where your strengt runs out either. You only notice that the stick pull is ineffective, take the P-38 or Bf-109 or Bf-110 dive recoveries as an example. So the current implementation doesn't help you know the limit either. And even worse, you don't know where your virtual stick is positioned and how much deflection throw it has remaining, unless you look down into the cockpit and try to see http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Originally posted by M_Gunz:
unless FFB can
hold the stick immobile perhaps? And how would you see that before reaching it?
Yes, with the "cemented" controls, the FFB should try its best to keep your stick position. Not sure if the FFB motors are strong enough for that, but when you have X force in normal flight, it is telling enough to X+50% to realize you reached the limit. And you don't need to "see" the remaining strenght (as I said, you don't see that neither in the current game implementation, nor in RL), but you would FEEL it as the pressure builds up when moving the stick. In an extrem dive situatioin, if you are trimmed, you would feel that any deflection would cause unusually high force, so practically you would have to use the trim wheels, to get your stick moving away from its position.

One final comment: Oleg doesn't like FFB and this explains why he ignores this area almost completely, apart from a very rough FFB implementation we see in game (and replace with user-made FFB effects, available long before the dawn of modding). IIRC Oleg was asked about better FFB suppport in SoW:BoB and he just said FFB was altogether unrealistic, so he would give a crap about it.

Genious or not, he would deserve a friendly punch in the nose for that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It IS unrealistic for sure, but completely ignoring this area won't make it more realistic either. So at least he should leave some options for the 1% of the community, instead of shutting the door on us.

M_Gunz
05-18-2009, 05:02 PM
I think some of it is not being able to fit two different sets of interface code into a sim that is already "full"
to the point where for some new feature another may have to go. You can only put so much spaghetti in a bowl. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

rnzoli
05-19-2009, 10:59 AM
The bowl (your hard disk) is quite big, believe me, you can put a lot of code onto it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Like this:

if (forceFeedbackIsOn)
{
processInputAsForce(stickX, stickY);
}
else
{
processInputAsPosition(stickX, stickY);
}



But in the real code, this is the situation:

if (forceFeedbackIsOn)
{
// wtf, let the ffb guys go a screw themselves
}
processInputAsForce(stickX, stickY);

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
05-19-2009, 11:20 AM
What you can load and run is less than hard drive. And they have already taken things out to add others.
More efficient to have different exe's or dll's completely -- more possible.

I feel for you with FFB. I also feel envy, many tell how you do know better how the plane is flying.
Without FFB it is a little like pulling the stick with a bungee cord. Only thing to do is keep an eye on
the nose while watching speed and gauges here and there, something common to all PC sims I know.

We had a saying in programming that if you open a can of worms it will always take a larger can to hold them again.

rnzoli
05-19-2009, 11:33 AM
Agree, and I can only hope this (force feedback) will not be a locked area in Sow:BoB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Then we party! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

FoolTrottel
05-19-2009, 11:43 AM
In my opinion the best thing about FFB in IL2 is the way you can really feel the speed, as at high speeds you do need to apply more force... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

thefruitbat
05-19-2009, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by FoolTrottel:
In my opinion the best thing about FFB in IL2 is the way you can really feel the speed, as at high speeds you do need to apply more force... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I have to completly agree, thats my favourite bit of it to.

I will cry the day my msffb2 stops working.