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View Full Version : How best to use the Ki-84?



Catandra
11-29-2005, 01:33 PM
I've been flying te Ki-84 lately and realizing that my Zero tactics that have served me so well in the past are rather innappropriate for this bird.

Whenever I try and get in a dogfight, I find that I get about 30-50 degrees into a turn before the plane yaws out of the bank and I'm forced to start again. There are times when it works okay but in general, I'm finding that it's not a very good turning machine.

I'm guessing that the plane requires more of a zoom-and-boom tactic...starting from a position of altitude and diving down on your opponents for a firing pass. This seems even more important when faced with faster enemy planes like Mustangs, for which a Ki-84 is hard pressed to catch.

What do you all think? I'd be curious to hear your opinions on tactics for this plane.

Grey_Mouser67
11-29-2005, 04:23 PM
It can turn good, but there are planes like the spitfire that can out turn it.

You can out turn a Mustang, Jug, Lightning and a Corsair...close with a Hellcat.

I find best tactics are energy tactics because it is superior in climb at low and medium altitudes to many aircraft....the P-38L late is faster and climbs better and the Spit will do it in if you don't have an energy advantage, but I think the Ki will outrun a spit at low alititude.

I don't think you are relagated to B&Z but you must manage your energy and don't turn fight with Spits and P-39's.

VW-IceFire
11-29-2005, 04:41 PM
Its an odd sort of plane really.

I find the Ki-84 you have to use a combination style of BNZ and TNB tactics. Meaning that you want to use your turn only when you need to and keep your speeds regulated so that you are fast enough to turn well but not so fast as to lock the controls.

The Ki-84 is fast...almost as fast as its American counterparts. So its a good combination aircraft. Its definately not a Zero...maybe more to be flown like a 109 or a Hellcat perhaps.

lairdperkins
11-29-2005, 04:46 PM
Drop in Combat Flaps and you can turn with almost anything that isn't a Zeke, Oscar, or early Spit.

The butterfly flaps are what really makes the Ki-84. The first notch of flaps extends back, but not down, basically increasing the surface area of the wing, decreasing wing loading, and improving turn speed, for a very negligable increase in drag.

AVG_WarHawk
11-29-2005, 06:06 PM
The Ki-84 "Frank" was a formidable fighter until a few patches back. It was altered to Ki-84 "Francyne" by popular demand.

leitmotiv
11-29-2005, 06:17 PM
For my money, it is the premium sports model late war fighter. Engine power, extreme maneuverability, firepower (the Ic is outrageous---two high-velocity 30mm), and super altitude performance. Handled correctly it is master of any opponent. It is well worth your time to learn to use it. It can climb away from -5 Hellcats in a tight spiral---watch out your rear bubble as they fall away behind you. I love it. Wish the Jack and George were flyable, too.

ElAurens
11-29-2005, 07:10 PM
The KI84 has been decidedly undermodelled in the turn to satisfy the large cadre of Yank whiners here, (Don't go ballistic, I'm a Yank too) who simply refuse to believe that the Japanese could design and build a competetive aircraft. It's propensity to depart in all but the most gradual of turns flys in the face of this aircraft's real world performance. It should be close to the Ki61/100 but in the game it is more like an FW190.

Utter BS, IMHO.

leitmotiv
11-29-2005, 07:25 PM
Hell's bells, ElAurens, are you patched up to 4.02? I can turn the Ki-84 like a deranged I-152, it smokes the fun but lesser Ki-100, and no Fw190A can fly like it at high altitude (it is the ideal solution to the B-29, esp with the twin 30s). My only gripe is that it ought to be prone to random engine failures, like the real item.

Grey_Mouser67
11-29-2005, 08:09 PM
I don't recall that many posts about the Ki being a turning giant...the biggest issues I remember were an obscene damage model and it was faster than a Mustang at many altitudes...it has been softened up a little, but no lightweight and it can out turn most opponents...but not all...as it did in real life.

It is still faster than a Corsair which wasn't the case in real life, but what the heck it is Oleg's sim so I guess if he has visions of a 425mph Frank then who are we to argue.

Oddly, its got that ability to mush in its turn...much like the Fw...it loses some speed and tends to drop a wing but recovers easily and when it stalls like that it has little energy loss, relatively speaking.

There is nothing wrong with this aircraft as it is modelled and it still might be on the optimistic side of DM with its ability to catch fire and put it out and its top speed but overall, I think the plane is closer to real life than it ever has been.

Badsight.
11-29-2005, 11:26 PM
the Ki-84 is still a good energy fighter . capable of mixing it with the other best planes

its never been the best at anything , not climb or dive or turn or accelleration or level speed - you have to mix it all up when facing faster planes or better turning planes

every single bit of its performance has been Whined about , some of it - the DM whines - has a basis in gameplay fact

HotelBushranger
11-30-2005, 02:37 AM
It's a master of trades, the Frank. It depends on your enemy. It can't outrun a mustang, but it can out manouvre it. Only use the 84 C for taking out bombers, never use it against fighters or you dead, the long barrels makes it less manouverable. Try to use As mostly, then B's. Like Badsight said, use it as an energy plane, like the Spitfire. Personally, I'd take a Ki-84A against a Spitfire anyday.

alert_1
11-30-2005, 06:51 AM
Ki84 is fine against any west fighter but try in against La7 3xb20 or Yak3P and you will have much harder time...

gthgrrl4game
11-30-2005, 11:30 AM
I have no fears taking on ANY piston engined fighter in the Hayate and I AM using 4.02!!
BNZ and TnB, its all good here, just make sure you use those flaps. It is the single best IJ fighter in the game. I have flown QMB against even the latest Yakovlev and Lavochkin fighters with success.
As was said earlier, the Ic is devastating against anyting with the 30mm's!
That said, I prefer the Ia or Ib for air superiority fighter on fighter work.
It is more challenging.

alert_1
12-02-2005, 12:00 AM
have flown QMB against even the latest Yakovlev and Lavochkin fighters with success.
I understand you are good..now, how are you doing online?

gthgrrl4game
12-02-2005, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by alert_1:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">have flown QMB against even the latest Yakovlev and Lavochkin fighters with success.
I understand you are good..now, how are you doing online? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Check my prior posts, I clearly state that I have not yet flown online.
Also, I *never* claimed to be good at this. The QMB AI's just seem a bit predictable.
Skynet they most certainly are not!
I have flown the La-7 against an AI flown Hayate and torched it faster than I able to blow an LA-7 in half. So you contention that a Hayate pilot would find the Lavochka a challenge DOES ring true. It tends to take me 2-3 times as long to take out the La from the Hayate as it does vice versa.
I am certain against a human opponent I will not do nearly so well http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
I do want to get online tho http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Not for *winning* as such, but more for the challenge and the sheer pleasure of *flying* the classic Warbirds in simulated combat.
One full time and one part time job limit my Game time to odd hours. I will try to make time tho http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BigKahuna_GS
12-03-2005, 12:14 PM
S!




Grey_Mouser67 -It is still faster than a Corsair which wasn't the case in real life, but what the heck it is Oleg's sim so I guess if he has visions of a 425mph Frank then who are we to argue.



Rgr that, couple that with the Corsair being 10mph too slow on the deck (should go at least 366mph TAS) and that the Corsair/Hellcat engine overheats faster than spandex between a fat ladys legs. The 4.2 Ki84 is a very formidable plane and very fast on the deck, it usualy has no problem chasing down and catching planes at sea level.

The old Ki84 had many questionable parts to it's F/M, with speed, high speed roll rate and lack of energy bleed being just a few. If you want to see some planes that have been trimmed a little too much since the release of Pacific Fighters--look at the Corsair & Hellcat.

The Hellcat known for it's light wingloading and gentle stall has a somewhat abrupt snap stall in PF that leads into a spin. From a real Hellcat pilot in my virtual Sqdn, the stall should be much gentler and when stalled the plane never went into a spin. Also the turn rate should be slightly improved. The dive acceleration of the Hellcat in PF might be slower than a biplane towing an airsock-lol.

Both the Corsair & Hellcat are underpowered especially during take off from a carrier. Energy bleed is just a little too excessive for both these planes. Damage modeling is that they catch fire easily now. At least the Ki84 when it catches fire, the fire goes out much of the time.



__

JG52Karaya-X
12-04-2005, 03:15 AM
I remember flying on by.sturmovik.de when 4.02 came out - it was a late 44/early 45 PTO map with F4U-1Ds and F6F-5s fighting it out with G4Ms, A6M5s, Ki61s and Ki84-Ia/b and even the c model. I don't need to say that everybody took the c http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

For balancing reasons I took a 1D Corsair and flew towards the japanese base at Iwo Jima. Japanese objective on that map was destroying American landing vessels that were placed ~5km from the shore. The Zeros and Tonys were of course cannonfodder for the Corsair but to my mind the F4U vs Ki84 fight was absolutely fair for both sides. I returned to base with 3 kills (2xKi84Ib and 1xKi61Otsu) and none of these fighters even returned fire at me - because I absolutely surprised them. Boom and Zoom works perfect against these planes. The Ki84 isnt such a flying tank anymore as it used to be in AEP - you can set the wingtanks on fire or clip a wing with a short burst! And even if you didnt manage to do the above you can be sure that your burst crippled your opponent.

If you get into trouble (I encountered a Ki84 slightly higher and faster than me on my 2nd flight) just dive away. I dove down to sealevel and flew back to the carrier, the Ki84 still on my 6 but falling back. The carrier AAA solved the problem for me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Vipez-
12-10-2005, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by 609IAP_Kahuna:
S!



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Grey_Mouser67 -It is still faster than a Corsair which wasn't the case in real life, but what the heck it is Oleg's sim so I guess if he has visions of a 425mph Frank then who are we to argue.



Rgr that, couple that with the Corsair being 10mph too slow on the deck (should go at least 366mph TAS) and that the Corsair/Hellcat engine overheats faster than spandex between a fat ladys legs. The 4.2 Ki84 is a very formidable plane and very fast on the deck, it usualy has no problem chasing down and catching planes at sea level.


__ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmm I don't suppose you have flown much Corsair / Hellcat in 4.02 ? It definately did have problems with overheating in previous patches, but now i find Corsair and Hellcat to be very competetive (certainly in 4.02 i have had zero problems with similar overheating problems i had in 4.01).. haven't tested the max speeds, though..

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

VW-IceFire
12-10-2005, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Vipez-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 609IAP_Kahuna:
S!



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Grey_Mouser67 -It is still faster than a Corsair which wasn't the case in real life, but what the heck it is Oleg's sim so I guess if he has visions of a 425mph Frank then who are we to argue.



Rgr that, couple that with the Corsair being 10mph too slow on the deck (should go at least 366mph TAS) and that the Corsair/Hellcat engine overheats faster than spandex between a fat ladys legs. The 4.2 Ki84 is a very formidable plane and very fast on the deck, it usualy has no problem chasing down and catching planes at sea level.


__ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmm I don't suppose you have flown much Corsair / Hellcat in 4.02 ? It definately did have problems with overheating in previous patches, but now i find Corsair and Hellcat to be very competetive (certainly in 4.02 i have had zero problems with similar overheating problems i had in 4.01).. haven't tested the max speeds, though..

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The radiators are still useless...keep them closed at all times as they have no effect on cooling!

Kuna15
12-10-2005, 01:33 PM
Just about perfect BnZer only one shortage -- diving speed (wing breaks fast http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

I use it in just same way as FW-190 or any other BnZer, good benefit is decent turn rate (versus everyting except Spitfire).