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View Full Version : How much did the P51 Mustang contribute to winning the war?



MEGILE
04-22-2007, 01:45 PM
Answers on a stamped adressed postcard please.

JG4_Helofly
04-22-2007, 02:16 PM
OMG! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

This forum is definitively never short in supply with such threads.

Sergio_101
04-22-2007, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
OMG! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

This forum is definitively never short in supply with such threats.

Worthless thread, no one will give an honest answer.
It's an all or nothing vote.

Lock it I say.

Sergio

Rubylust
04-22-2007, 02:30 PM
I have nothing to do at the moment so, my opinion is the Spitfire did much more effecting Axis defeat. I think the author of this thread has nothing to do either although I haven't spent enough time to see any 'Mustang won the war' threads. even with US versions of WWII history and watching documentaries, off hand I don't recall such a statement.

Divine-Wind
04-22-2007, 02:34 PM
75%!

Without them (And P-47's), the Allies wouldn't have had tank-tipping .50 calibers!

joeap
04-22-2007, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
OMG! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

This forum is definitively never short in supply with such threads.

Note who the OP is and you'll understand the level of seriousness to take it.

jasonbirder
04-22-2007, 02:52 PM
How much did it contribute to Winning the war...
I'd have to go with 0% simply because it didn't enter extensive serice till mid 1944 by which time the war was already won...
It contributed to the allied bomber campaign and campaign in the west and in some small way contributed to the shortening of the war...but i've always believed that the effect of both the bomber campaign and the impact of Allied Air superiority on the ground campaign have been greatly over estimated.

JG52Karaya-X
04-22-2007, 02:58 PM
What is this Pee-fifty-one!? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Waldo.Pepper
04-22-2007, 03:24 PM
Worthless thread

I wish there was an smiley emoticon for 'biting my tongue'

WWSpinDry
04-22-2007, 03:39 PM
Stalingrad actually withstood the German attack due to the exploits of a secret P-51 commando squadron.

Hitler took his life when he heard P-51s were coming to get him.

The Japanese signed their surrender in the cockpit of a P-51.

MEGILE
04-22-2007, 03:43 PM
When you see the missions the P51 was tasked with, like tank busting in Saving Private Ryan, I just think it's role is undervalued.

heywooood
04-22-2007, 03:43 PM
instigator http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

SeaNorris
04-22-2007, 04:01 PM
Megile, where is the 100% option?

MEGILE
04-22-2007, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by SeaNorris:
Megile, where is the 100% option?

The aviation historians at UBI told me the P-51 didn't win the war.

I think the main problem is people are out to devalue the Mustang,

At the end of the day, it could turn circles round the Messer and Focke till they fell out of the sky from fuel shortage.

It's easy to make a dogfighter... it's pretty dam hard to make that dogfighter fly 8 hours.
The Mustang was America's great achievment of ww2, be sure.

general_kalle
04-22-2007, 04:22 PM
omg why P51?


IL2
W. Liss in Aircraft profile 88: Ilyushin Il-2 mentions an engagement during the Battle of Kursk on 7 July 1943, in which 70 tanks from the German 9th Panzer Division were destroyed by Ilyushin Il-2 in just 20 minutes.

B17 and other Strategic bombers also played a moajor role hitting german industry.
the role of it is higly debated though.
some say the bombings of Köln Hamborg and other cites was worhtless

P47

Thunderbolt destroyed 86,000 railway cars, 9,000 locomotives, 6,000 armored fighting vehicles, and 68,000 trucks.

Saving private Ryan is wrong. P38 and P47 is much more tank buster than P51.

all info from Wikipedia

think about that. what did mustang do???

joeap
04-22-2007, 04:28 PM
The P-51 could not even stop the Nazi mechs.

Bearcat99
04-22-2007, 04:33 PM
The Mustang assisted the war effort in that it was able to protect the B-17s better than anything else because it had the range to escort the bombers to the target and back and the performance to effectively deal with the opposition when it encountered them (of course the pilots on both sides were factors in how that all played out.) As a ground pounder it was not nearly as effective as the P-47s.

I don't thin that anyone here is willing to do the research to actuallY put a plausable number on that and Megile is fishing anyway so...... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

MEGILE
04-22-2007, 04:44 PM
I'm going with 75%

WarWolfe_1
04-22-2007, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
What is this Pee-fifty-one!? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Same catagory as the Whine OH NINE http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Brain32
04-22-2007, 05:10 PM
Contribute? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

TC_Stele
04-22-2007, 05:10 PM
Gathering of Mustangs and Legends. Greatest airshow for the greatest bird. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Rammathorn_
04-22-2007, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
At the end of the day, it could turn circles round the Messer and Focke till they fell out of the sky from fuel shortage.

It's easy to make a dogfighter... it's pretty dam hard to make that dogfighter fly 8 hours.
The Mustang was America's great achievment of ww2, be sure.

:thumbs up:

Huxley_S
04-22-2007, 05:34 PM
If you had to make a list of events/things that contributed to ending WWII, the P51 would be way, way down the list.

The Eastern Front accounted for at least 75% of German military deaths and prisoners. The nuclear bomb finished the Pacific conflict. The P51's contribution is not even 1%.

Had the P51 not existed, the allies would still have won.

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

faustnik
04-22-2007, 05:46 PM
The answer is 17.3% and you don't have that even listed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Get your act together Megile.

Jaws2002
04-22-2007, 06:21 PM
200% be sure!!!101!!

And the evidence is everywhere:

While still in prototype stage it ended the ww1 with a PK on the Red Baron:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/pony1.jpg


It won the Battle of Britain:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/pony2.jpg


Won the African campainn!!!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/pony4.jpg



Beat the nazis back at Stalingrad!!!111!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/pony6.jpg


At Iwo Jima it shot all the japanese inside the Mount Suribachi using the mighty API-API-API-API formula !101!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/pony5.jpg


Ended the war in Europe !!!101!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/pony3.jpg


And are still doing Homeland Security today:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/pony7.jpg



Be sure!!!



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Akronnick
04-22-2007, 07:23 PM
Best Post Ever!!!

Matz0r
04-22-2007, 07:33 PM
http://www.pfy.nu/tmp/ohcrap_usaf.jpg

BillyTheKid_22
04-22-2007, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
200% be sure!!!101!!

And the evidence is everywhere:

While still in prototype stage it ended the ww1 with a PK on the Red Baron:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/pony1.jpg


It won the Battle of Britain:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/pony2.jpg


Won the African campainn!!!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/pony4.jpg



Beat the nazis back at Stalingrad!!!111!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/pony6.jpg


At Iwo Jima it shot all the japanese inside the Mount Suribachi using the mighty API-API-API-API formula !101!!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/pony5.jpg


Ended the war in Europe !!!101!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/pony3.jpg


And are still doing Homeland Security today:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/pony7.jpg



Be sure!!!



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif



Cool!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Daiichidoku
04-22-2007, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
200% be sure!!!101!!

And the evidence is everywhere:



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

i cried...im jsut glad i didnt have to pee at the time, omg!

LStarosta
04-22-2007, 07:56 PM
It didn't win just the war. It wan the wars.

WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and now Iraq. Quite a record, I must say.

What wars did the 109 win?

msalama
04-22-2007, 11:41 PM
Surely as much as the Sturmovik at any rate http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

msalama
04-22-2007, 11:43 PM
Attaboy Jaws http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

msalama
04-22-2007, 11:47 PM
and oh yeah, the answer is 34.97832% - be sure

Monty_Thrud
04-23-2007, 01:15 AM
You know i could be wrong...but!...i have a slight suspicion those photos may be photoshopped... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

MEGILE
04-23-2007, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
200% be sure!!!101!!

And the evidence is everywhere:


I don't think 200% is quite accurate, but I applaud your research, and support.

rnzoli
04-23-2007, 03:23 AM
You know i could be wrong...but!...i have a slight suspicion those photos may be photoshopped...
You are either wrong or a revisionary anti-american.
Megile already clearly stated - "the P51 Mustang". Not "Mustangs". That's why all pictures show the same Mustang. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

MEGILE
04-23-2007, 03:29 AM
Originally posted by rnzoli:

You are either wrong or a revisionary anti-american.
Megile already clearly stated - "the P51 Mustang". Not "Mustangs". That's why all pictures show the same Mustang. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Agreed 100%

The exploits of Mustang B7-H are widely known.

JG4_Helofly
04-23-2007, 04:21 AM
Jaws, best post ever http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

TheBandit_76
04-23-2007, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
What is this Pee-fifty-one!? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Oh, just a gorgeous machine that gave the luftwaffles more misery than they ever thought possible. It defeated the 109/190 on their own turf and I love that, truly I do.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

For you, here is a photo of the Mustang and another undefeated US aircraft.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/albums/new_war_photos/p51mustang_f15.jpg

WWSpinDry
04-23-2007, 07:17 AM
That was a classic post, Jaws! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

MEGILE
04-23-2007, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by TheBandit_76:


Oh, just a gorgeous machine that gave the luftwaffles more misery than they ever thought possible. It defeated the 109/190 on their own turf and I love that, truly I do.


Spoken like a true patriot.

S!! to you and yours

JG52Karaya-X
04-23-2007, 08:40 AM
or a true fanatic, pick your choice http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Blutarski2004
04-23-2007, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by general_kalle:
P47

Thunderbolt destroyed 86,000 railway cars, 9,000 locomotives, 6,000 armored fighting vehicles, and 68,000 trucks.


..... and that was in one mission.

leitmotiv
04-23-2007, 09:02 AM
Not again. Just read the authoritative:

TO COMMAND THE SKY: THE BATTLE FOR AIR SUPERIORITY OVER GERMANY, 1942-1944. Stephen L. McFarland and Wesley Phillips Newton. Smithsonian Institution Press, Washington, 1991. ISBN: 1-56098-069-9

The P-47 gets the honors for breaking the back of the Luftwaffe fighter force during the winter/early spring of 1944 because there were too few P-51s in the pipeline. The P-47 was fighting the last of the best---so it had a special distinction. By the late spring the P-51 was dominant, and ever after. And, the P-51 carried the war to every corner of the Reich, attacking airfields where instruction was being given, disrupting training, killing instructors and trainees, and generally wreaking havoc. The Luftwaffe lost its rear area where it could regroup. The P-51 was able to ensure most of the bombers would get to their targets where a tiny portion of their bombs hit their targets due to the AAF's poor preparation for European weather. The P-51 was the best Allied air superiority fighter of the late war period. The P-47 killed the best, the P-51 finished the job by routing and destroying what was left and seeking them out in every corner of the Reich like aerial cavalry.

Platypus_1.JaVA
04-23-2007, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by Megile:

It's easy to make a dogfighter... it's pretty dam hard to make that dogfighter fly 8 hours.
The Mustang was America's great achievment of ww2, be sure.

No it is not.

If it wheren't for the british who ordered it and for a genius german(!) designer with a good memory when he visited the BF-109 factory, the mustang would never had happened. Ow. And the brilliant English Rolls Royce engine of course. Without it, it was only slightly better then the P-40.

And the first mustangs did enter the USAAF as... dive bombers. They did not want the P-51 as a fighter at first.

The number one achievement was that it could fly with the bombers all the way to Germany and back. In doint so, the Luftwaffe needed to counter the mustang with more of their fighters. Those LW aircraft could've been used for better purposes, like helping the battle in Russia or something.

MEGILE
04-23-2007, 09:22 AM
Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:

No it is not.

If it wheren't for the british who ordered it and for a genius german(!) designer with a good memory when he visited the BF-109 factory, the mustang would never had happened.

Hey I can order a burger and fries from Burger King in French after visitng a mcdonalds...

but who makes my food?

The Mustang is all American

drose01
04-23-2007, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
If it wheren't for the british who ordered it and for a genius german(!) designer with a good memory when he visited the BF-109 factory, the mustang would never had happened. Ow. And the brilliant English Rolls Royce engine of course. Without it, it was only slightly better then the P-40.

(to continue this absurd train of thought)

Ok, but if it weren't for the WRIGHT BROTHERS who flew the FIRST AIRPLANE in NORTH CAROLINA, USA in 1903...http://people.bath.ac.uk/en2raw/images/wrightbrothersflyer.jpg

bazzaah2
04-23-2007, 09:28 AM
birds - they gave us the idea in the first place,

And for birds you need to thank dinosaurs.

BrewsterPilot
04-23-2007, 09:28 AM
But if it weren't for OTto Lilienthal who...

Oh nvm.

JG4_Helofly
04-23-2007, 09:36 AM
One thing we can learn from this thread: Too much patriotism is not good for objectivity.

FlatSpinMan
04-23-2007, 09:38 AM
Yeah and moreover I think you'll find that Jeebus was American (blond, blue eyed, spoke English eerily well for a someone not born in an English speaking country - wait - was Jeebus in the SS?!) and he created the universe in which the first planes could fly.

Below is a sentence which has been quoted. Therefore I am right.

Quote:
----------------------------------------
"...Jeebus was [sic]A...me...ric<STRIKE>e</STRIKE>...Can...and...designed...teh Mustang which not only haxxorrz but also pwnz0rzz"
p.109 F.S.M., "Jeebus for teh winn!! Doubleday Publishing"
----------------------------------------

leeG727
04-23-2007, 09:46 AM
Actually, it was Rosie the Riveter who won the war by making all those Mustangs, Thunderbolts, B-17s, tanks, ships, guns, bombs, ammo...............

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

JuHa-
04-23-2007, 09:55 AM
Quickened the victory for ..1 year by enabling long distance bombing runs? Shorter missions
would have been possible with P38/P47 covers still.

XyZspineZyX
04-23-2007, 09:57 AM
An Allied airplane did win the war,, but it was called the <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">C-47</span>

MEGILE
04-23-2007, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
One thing we can learn from this thread: Too much patriotism is not good for objectivity.

Exactly!!!!

So next time you see some Luftwaffle hating on the Mustang, be sure to tell him that!

XyZspineZyX
04-23-2007, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:

If it wheren't for the british who ordered it


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Misconception

The British didn't want to order the P-51... They wanted P-40s, built by NAA. North American Aviation had never built a fighter of there own design, and the Brits wanted Tomahawks built under licence. NAA said "we can design and build a better plane". And they did


Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
and for a genius german(!) designer


http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Misconception

Schmued was not a native American. Neither am I. Nor was George Washington. That's the first misconception on this point, that Schmued was a genius by virtue of his ethnic extraction

Second misconception on this point: Schmued was Cheif designer. Not "sole" designer and Engineer. The plane was made by a Team from North American Aviation, not by Edgar Schmued


Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:

with a good memory when he visited the BF-109 factory, the mustang would never had happened.


Eh? Firstly, the Mustang happened for reasons I have already cited. Secondly, you are claiming that the P-51 is basically copied from design elements from the 109. Back that statement up, please, with specific examples http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
And the brilliant English Rolls Royce engine of course. Without it, it was only slightly better then the P-40.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Misconception. The Merlin ws indeed more suited to high performance, but not for the reasons you think http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I invite you to actually do some research on each engine, and see for yourself whay the Alison didn't do what the Merlin did


Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
And the first mustangs did enter the USAAF as... dive bombers. They did not want the P-51 as a fighter at first.

Throw your reference books in the trash! 100% Myth and fantasy. Big common misconception, and a big big mistake. Check the serial numbers on the P-51A and the A-36 sometime. The A-36 was not the initial P-51. This "fact" is often tossed around the boards and it is founded on a bad assumption


Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
The number one achievement was that it could fly with the bombers all the way to Germany and back.

More misconception. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif After the P-51s escorted the heavies to target, another P-51 group escorted back. The former escorts then attacked targets of oppourtunity- potentially free of harrassment. It was not the norm to escort "there and back" in every case. They also could do things like hang out over Me 262 bases http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But that's "unfair" to the advanced 262, vulching and all... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But anyway...you say it's the #1 acheivement..well, what was the point of the plane, again? The Spit, Thunderbolt, Lightning, Tempest, etc, etc had their roles...why do so many people "blame" the P-51 for not being tops in everything? Is it so hard to come to grips with the fact that the P-51 could fight the best the Luftwafee had with something approaching parity? The Spitfire already existed. The idea was not to make a plane that duplicated what others in the Allied aresenal already did



Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
In doint so, the Luftwaffe needed to counter the mustang with more of their fighters. .

????? Thge Luftwaffe wasn't making sorties to shoot down P-51s, they wanted to draw away the escorting P-51s and attack the heavies. In fact, the Luftwaffe would often make one attack and dive away- hardly examples of trying to "counter the Mustang"



Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
Those LW aircraft could've been used for better purposes, like helping the battle in Russia or something.

Everyone repeat after me: the RLM made a mistake in 1941 when it decided that the Bf 109 would be the last fighter the Reich needed, and that additional fighter types wouldn't be needed after the war. They also shouldn't have stayed on a virtual peacetime production schedule (6 day week) until 1943 or so

The fact that the Luftwaffe curtailed many programs to concentrate on fighters is proof positive that the Luftwaffe went from a highly efficient and productive tactical, offensive weapon, to a purely defensive measure designed to buy time- you don't win wars by going into a brilliant withdrawl. Proof? Dunkirk http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Helping "the battle in Russia"...how does more planes that are frozen to the ground help the battle in Russia? When Barbarossa started, the Abwehr reported the VVS was "virtually wiped out of the sky" by the Luftwaffe, that all-powerful and unbeatable air force....but they were wrong. Sure, Hartmann and Kittel and Company were great pilots and fighters...but you're telling me the Mustang made it's impact by tying up the Luftwaffe and denying their other units on the Ostfront planes...well if the P-51 was no good, how could it tie up those units of the Luftwaffe it faced? It makes no sense...if the P-51 was no good, how could the "genius German" Schmeud have made a plane that was simultaneously so great that it copied the Bf 109, and also so poor the Luftwffe's planes were superior? And if the Luftwaffe had so many superior planes, how come the P-51s were not swept aside? Novice German Pilots? Hogwash, the USAAF had a rotation policy. Even some of their most skilled pilots never even saw a German fighter. The novice Germans were on the same footing as the Novice Americans. I never could understand that argument and I don't accept it, it strains credibility to suppose that the Germans had all these novices due to attrition, while the Americans had all these hotshots. How can so few USAAF pilots have gotten 20 victories while so many Germans had over 100 if the Amis are all old pros and the Necktie Soldiers of the Luftwaffe were so green? We have to start coming to grips with the fact that there were PLENTY of inexperienced US pilots over Germany.

The Luftwaffe was never going to overcome internal problems of poor planning on the invasion of the USSR. Another 5,000 109s and 190s wasn't going to get food and winter jackets to the Grau at Stalingrad, was it? I can't agree that it was. The invasion was delayed and started much too late. Hitler was too arrogant to change plans, of course he would win before the winter! How could he not! More planes weren't going to solve that situation

I'm not mad at you or anything, I think you're good guy and a great asset to the community...but these things you're posting in my informed opinion are a little off-base in many ways, JaVA

JG4_Helofly
04-23-2007, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
One thing we can learn from this thread: Too much patriotism is not good for objectivity.

Exactly!!!!

So next time you see some Luftwaffle hating on the Mustang, be sure to tell him that! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you agree that you are not objective.

XyZspineZyX
04-23-2007, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
One thing we can learn from this thread: Too much patriotism is not good for objectivity.

Exactly!!!!

So next time you see some Luftwaffle hating on the Mustang, be sure to tell him that! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you agree that you are not objective. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don;t understand what's happening http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That shiny thing in the water is a hook

horseback
04-23-2007, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:

It's easy to make a dogfighter... it's pretty dam hard to make that dogfighter fly 8 hours.
The Mustang was America's great achievment of ww2, be sure.

No it is not.

If it wheren't for the british who ordered it and for a genius german(!) designer with a good memory when he visited the BF-109 factory, the mustang would never had happened. Ow. And the brilliant English Rolls Royce engine of course. Without it, it was only slightly better then the P-40.

And the first mustangs did enter the USAAF as... dive bombers. They did not want the P-51 as a fighter at first.

The number one achievement was that it could fly with the bombers all the way to Germany and back. In doint so, the Luftwaffe needed to counter the mustang with more of their fighters. Those LW aircraft could've been used for better purposes, like helping the battle in Russia or something. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>The A-36 was ordered not because the USAAF didn't want it as a fighter, but because the pot of money budgeted for fighters was already empty. They talked to NAA, and decided to add some dive brakes to keep the production line open until they could commission follow ons with the Allison engine P-51A Mustang.

The Allison Mustang was considerably more capable than any model of the Kittyhawk; the proof is in the fact that the RAF used it operationally in Europe almost to the end of the war, while the P-40 variants were shunted off to the Med and Pacific theaters. Had the Mustang never received the Merlin engine, North American would have still ramped up their production capacity and the Mustang would have replaced P-40s very quickly in the low-medium air superiority role.

Instead, that production capacity went into the Merlin Mustangs, which appeared in numbers several months later than the Allison Mustangs would have.

People who have flown both types describe the P-51/P-51A Mustang as MUCH faster than the P-40, better climbing, and overall far more refined, besides having the greater range. The P-40 was a trim hog, requiring trim adjustments for slight changes in throttle, attitude and speed, where the early Mustangs needed little trim by comparison.

The Merlin ponies needed more trim adjustment than the Allison versions, but it was still much less trim hungry than the Warhawk.

While Edgar Schmued (I think that was his name) was a former employee of Messerschmitt, he didn't pull his whole design philosphy from that short experience in the early '30s, nor was he the sole design engineer behind the Mustang project.

AFAIK, he wasn't the man behind the Merlin conversion that was so much more refined and effective than Rolls Royce' Mustang Mk X project, so I'm not sure how much 'German' credit can be given for the Mustang's creation.

cheers

horseback

luftluuver
04-23-2007, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
One thing we can learn from this thread: Too much patriotism is not good for objectivity.

Exactly!!!!

So next time you see some Luftwaffle hating on the Mustang, be sure to tell him that! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You can include the Spitfire as well.

ShrikeHawk
04-23-2007, 11:04 AM
Seems like everybody thinks their favorite aircraft won the war. If a person didn't think their favorite was a major contributor, it probably wouldn't be their favorite!

Groundpounders won the war ( with a nod to American industry, ala Rosie the Riveter ). Honestly, aircraft were only supporting cast. I just focus on the air aspect of war because it interests me more. But I have no illusions about it's role in final vistory.

From all I have read, it seems that Strategic Bombing is far less significant to the war effort than was expected. Germany had fragmented it's industry so much (scattered through the countryside), that large-scale bomber streams on single targets would never have the desired effect. The P-51 was important aspect of that not-so-significant effort. This is not to say it was a total waste of time, just not as important as hoped.

So, going with the idea that air campaigns alone can't win wars, and strategic bombing was only moterately effective, and the P-51 was primarily an escort fighter for this strategic effort, I'd have to give the Mustang a low percentage. Maybe 8%.

Tactical fighters and bombers (Typhoon, P-47, Mosquito, Il-2, B-26, A-20) had a much larger effect because they could attack enemy resources wherever they were hidden. They were not relegated to very large "obvious targets". They could attack targets on the move and immediately attack previously unknown targets. They could defend and support allied troops (the ones who "really" won the war) in a very direct manner. These aircraft had a much larger impact than the Mustang in ultimate vistory, IMHO.

Kudos to the Mustang for being a great plane. The pilot accounts I've read and seen give it a glowing report. But it stood upon the groundwork of other great planes.

horseback
04-23-2007, 11:49 AM
Nice theory, but wrong.

Fragmentation of German industry was forced by strategic bombing. Everything you posited follows from there.

The Mustang's major contribution was NOT that it permitted strategic bombing of German industry, but that it forced the LW's fighter arm into the air where it could be reduced enough to allow the Allies complete air superiority over the D-Day beachheads. By February of 1944, the bombers were bait as much as a strategic striking arm.

The German tactical air arms were incapable of effective operations without a good fighter umbrella. At the same time, Typhoons and Thunderbolts carrying heavy groundpounding loads were much more effective with their own fighter umbrella.

Mustangs allowed the German air defenses no 'safe' zone in which to attack the bombers, so that they had to come up and fight on the Allies' terms. They did so, and lost the bulk of their experienced trained fighter forces' capabilities.

cheers

horseback

Jaws2002
04-23-2007, 12:08 PM
Dang. This tread went downhill fast. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Whirlin_merlin
04-23-2007, 12:13 PM
I still use my MS Combat Flight Simulator mousepad (yes it is a little worn). Anyway it has a Mustang on it and with it I have won the war many times over.

Ergo The Mustang....

Although I think they made a mistake and meant to put a Hurricane on it.

ShrikeHawk
04-23-2007, 12:52 PM
The Mustang's major contribution was NOT that it permitted strategic bombing of German industry, but that it forced the LW's fighter arm into the air where it could be reduced enough

This is the reason I believe strategic bombing wasn't a total waste of time. It wasn't the Mustang that pulled the fighter umbrella up, it was the B-17s and B-24s. The Mustang was only there because it "could be there" when other fighters couldn't. And once engaged with the LW it performed the task of bomber defense well.

But the "primary goal" of strategic bombing was to knock out german industry. The logic at the time - and given what they knew then it makes sense - was if you kill their warfighting ability, they'll stop fighting. But it didn't work that way because bombing from high-altitude was just not as feasible as hoped. So the bomber streams became nothing more than a very large, very expensive (in terms of lives and material) "feint".

Germany went for this feint hook, line, and sinker and committed precious resources to something that wasn't so effective anyway. The same commitment (on the allied side) could have been made for Tactical bombing. It could not have operated long-range so therefore would have been used to cutoff lines of communication, rather than the source.

This also would have forced the LW up into the waiting hands of allied fighters. But the bombing would have been far more effective. You'd be getting more value out of the same effort. In such an event, I would give the Mustang a higher percentage because it would be part of a more effective bombing campaign. See the logic?

But in a short-ranged tactical bombing campaign, would the Mustang have been as significant? I don't think so. Because other tactical fighters were available to do the job and do it well. I wonder then if the P-47 would have been as important in the escort role because it's performance at low altitude was poor. Perhaps it would have just continued as a very good weapons platform the way the Typhoon did.

I think the Allies had an advantage in using heavy bombers. I just don't think they lived up to the near-impossible task laid before them. And by association their best escort, the Mustang, contributed to a largely ineffective cause. But when the LW attacked the bomber streams it did remove German fighters en-masse. And coming home from escort duty, it was used to attack airfields. That was important and it took real balls to do so. Because it couldn't take damage the way a P-47 could.

BillyTheKid_22
04-23-2007, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG52Karaya-X:
What is this Pee-fifty-one!? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Oh, just a gorgeous machine that gave the luftwaffles more misery than they ever thought possible. It defeated the 109/190 on their own turf and I love that, truly I do.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

For you, here is a photo of the Mustang and another undefeated US aircraft.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/albums/new_war_photos/p51mustang_f15.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Scorpion.233
04-23-2007, 01:04 PM
Seriously, it's just a single plane.

Single planes don't win wars.

There's a countless amount of factors to consider in winning a war, that I doubt the P51 by itself even takes up 1%. It's part of a system.

TheBandit_76
04-23-2007, 01:38 PM
I hoist a pint in honour of my British brethren for taking the girl "all the way."

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

http://www.solarnavigator.net/aviation_and_space_travel/aviation_space_images/packard_merlin_engine.jpg

BillyTheKid_22
04-23-2007, 01:49 PM
http://overtaken.blogmosis.com/images/hogmus-thumb.jpg



http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

KIMURA
04-23-2007, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
The Mustang is all American

really??? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif that so called all american used a British engine. Even if Packard built that engine under licence, the heart of that a/c was British. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

ploughman
04-23-2007, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by TheBandit_76:
I hoist a pint in honour of my British brethren for taking the girl "all the way."

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

http://www.solarnavigator.net/aviation_and_space_travel/aviation_space_images/packard_merlin_engine.jpg

St. George's Day today, which we all celebrated by going to work. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

JG52Karaya-X
04-23-2007, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Jaws2002:
Dang. This tread went downhill fast. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Oh, the decline is very small as it already started out so low...

horseback
04-23-2007, 02:18 PM
But the "primary goal" of strategic bombing was to knock out german industry. The logic at the time - and given what they knew then it makes sense - was if you kill their warfighting ability, they'll stop fighting. But it didn't work that way because bombing from high-altitude was just not as feasible as hoped. Agreed that the goal was to knock out industry, but the targeting strategy was a bit disjointed, and all over the place until they realized that optimum results could be obtained by targetting the same type targets again and again, instead of hitting aircraft production one day, rail hubs the next, ball bearings the day after that...when they finally prioritized the rail transport and oil production facilities, the Mustang was already established.

When I said that the Mustang forced the LW to come up and fight, I meant just that. The German fighters and twin engined destroyers rarely made any serious attempts to attack the bombers until they were unescorted; the P-47s turn away at the extreme end of their range, and 'here comes the Luftwaffe.' This tactic worked well for them until the early December 1943 debut of the P-51B.

The introduction of the Mustang took away most of the advantages of that option, and progressively made it more expensive to attempt to engage the bombers at any point. Instead of engaging only the bombers, the interceptor force had to be wary of escorts, and the twin engined heavy fighters, which were the most effective anti bomber weapon the LW had up to that point, were forced off the board.

Because the German interceptor forces could no longer attack the daylight bombers unopposed, they were faced with the option of either going up and fighting (and losing) or letting the bombers run free over Central Europe (not a politically viable option, much less militarily viable).

From this standpoint, the Mustang becomes quite important, and without it, or another aircraft with similar range, availability and capabilities, the D-Day invasion, which for reasons of tides, etc., HAD to take place in early June, 1944, or wait until the following spring, might not have taken place in time.

cheers

horseback

Red_lightning1
04-23-2007, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by TheBandit_76:

For you, here is a photo of the Mustang and another undefeated US aircraft.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/albums/new_war_photos/p51mustang_f15.jpg

Wrong and wrong - Both have air to air losses.

leitmotiv
04-23-2007, 02:51 PM
YAWN

horseback
04-23-2007, 02:51 PM
Really? When and where did an F-15 get taken down in a real fight with another fighter?

cheers

horseback

Red_lightning1
04-23-2007, 02:54 PM
Real world stuff.

In 1995 a japanese F-15J shot down another F-15J with a AIM-9 during live fire training. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Tinfoil hat stuff.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/fakemig.htm

MarkSynthesis
04-23-2007, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Red_lightning1:
Real world stuff.

In 1995 a japanese F-15J shot down another F-15J with a AIM-9 during live fire training. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Tinfoil hat stuff.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/fakemig.htm

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Talk about damn awkward!

MEGILE
04-23-2007, 02:57 PM
IIRC the closest thing to an F-15 a-a loss, was an Israeli F-15 hit by an R-60, after downing 4 Migs.
however the F-15 apparently landed, damaged.

horseback
04-23-2007, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Red_lightning1:
Real world stuff.

In 1995 a japanese F-15J shot down another F-15J with a AIM-9 during live fire training. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Tinfoil hat stuff.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/fakemig.htm oh. Kamikaze training?

cheers

horseback

Frequent_Flyer
04-23-2007, 03:57 PM
It appears Albert Speer and Horseback are of one mind
Albert Speer has written of the importance of 12 May 1944 as the day on which "the technological war was decided. Until then we had managed to produce approximately as many weapons as the armed forces needed, . . . But with the attack of nine hundred and thirty-five daylight bombers of the American Eighth Air Force upon several fuel plants in central and eastern Germany, a new era in the air war began. It meant the end of German armaments production."¯7
The whole paper below, interesting read.


http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aurevi...may-jun/collins.html (http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1974/may-jun/collins.html)

Buster_Dee
04-23-2007, 04:50 PM
To me, it rates at least a 10%. I like the a/c, but i have many other favorites. What I think it did best was release other a/c to beat up the ground. It was adequate, but not stellar, in many roles. But its range allowed others who were stellar in those "other" roles to really contribute. With a good "energy" pilot, they could defend themselves well at the altitudes they were assigned--and they had the numbers to support each other. I think some of the bashing should be tempered with the fact that the British Purchasing Commission had the forsight to order it, and british engineers were quick to refine it when the USAAF was still snubbing it. '44 was just the year the USAAF woke up. The 51 was in British service before that.

faustnik
04-23-2007, 05:03 PM
I really don't understand all this talk of P-51. Immaculate conception produced the Spitfire, which clearly won the war, and returned the Queen's Empire to it's rightful international prominence.

Silly Colonials. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Tally Ho and crumpits for everyone!!!

ShrikeHawk
04-23-2007, 05:40 PM
To me, it rates at least a 10%. I like the a/c, but i have many other favorites. What I think it did best was release other a/c to beat up the ground. It was adequate, but not stellar, in many roles.

I think you just said, very eloquently, what I've been doing a poor job of saying. Much agreement here! But I would say it did a fine job as long-range escort. This isn't easy because Mustangs had to take on shorter-legged opponents who could focus on performance in their design. Take them on and win, by the way. Of course there's the matter of many of Germany's best pilots were killed and wounded by then. How to quantify that?


Immaculate conception produced the Spitfire, which clearly won the war, and returned the Queen's Empire to it's rightful international prominence.

Silly Colonials. Roll Eyes

Tally Ho and crumpits for everyone!!!

haha, Faustnik! We, in the colonies...ahem, "are" amused! Isn't it spelled "crumpets", old boy?

Old_Canuck
04-23-2007, 06:15 PM
I appeal to the opinion of a high ranking general who was there when the war was won. As quoted in "The Australian (Feb 20/2003):"

"THE Jeep, according to Dwight D. Eisenhower, was one of the three weapons that won World War II. And it's the only one you can buy new today. The others, namely the C-47/DC3 aircraft and the landing craft, have gone to the history books."

The P-51 by implication had more of a supporting role in winning the war.

BillyTheKid_22
04-23-2007, 07:13 PM
http://www.thundermustang.com/Images02/R06formation.jpg



http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/main.html (http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/main.html)

Jaws2002
04-23-2007, 10:47 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/<FA>Jaws/comical_alicopy-1.jpg


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Ob.Emann
04-24-2007, 12:35 AM
Christ Almighty! More than 60 years since the end of the Second World War and we're still bickering about whose patriotic fairy tales are better.....

alert_1
04-24-2007, 12:51 AM
Ten pager? You bet!!

JG52Karaya-X
04-24-2007, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG4_Helofly:
One thing we can learn from this thread: Too much patriotism is not good for objectivity.

Exactly!!!!

So next time you see some Luftwaffle hating on the Mustang, be sure to tell him that! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v639/Karaya/414267714_54715b18b2.jpg

MEGILE
04-24-2007, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
I really don't understand all this talk of P-51. Immaculate conception produced the Spitfire, which clearly won the war, and returned the Queen's Empire to it's rightful international prominence.



http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Wrong Monarch

DKoor
04-24-2007, 04:59 AM
I think there have been too much false info spread in this thread.
We all know that Spitfire really won http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif so it's not even a contest.

faustnik
04-24-2007, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by ShrikeHawk:
Isn't it spelled "crumpets", old boy?

Megile tried to explain it to me, but, I still don't know WTH a "crumpet" is. Sounds like a really crappy, flat donut. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

faustnik
04-24-2007, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by Megile:


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Wrong Monarch

Sid Vicious and Jonny Rotten said it was a Queen!

DKoor
04-24-2007, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ShrikeHawk:
Isn't it spelled "crumpets", old boy?

Megile tried to explain it to me, but, I still don't know WTH a "crumpet" is. Sounds like a really crappy, flat donut. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif