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CD_kp84yb
02-02-2006, 03:12 AM
Hey ,

I made some pictures at an airshow in the 70's at Zestienhoven airport (today its Rotterdam airport).
It was a old camera and only black and white, hehehe my father wouldn't give me colourfilm in those days.
Now i have a few question.

a what kind of spitfire is this?
b Does it still excist?
c does anybody have colourphoto's of it?
d what is that other plane (sorry more of a cannon & tankboy here)
The spitfire and that other plane came from the UK, they flew back together.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/airport1.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/airport2.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/airport3.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/airport4.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/airport5.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/airport6.jpg

The last one i made bigger and develop it myself ( years ago)

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/airport7.jpg

Shame that i ran outof film, cos that pilot made some good passes , dam we almost had to hirt the dirt, could be 20 meters low.
Still here that engine.

Regards

danjama
02-02-2006, 03:15 AM
yeah they could go real low in them dasys i hear http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Great pictures thankyou for sharing! It looks like a late mk griffoned, maybe a mk19 or mk21, and i doubt highly that it still exists....or maybe it does, lets see, low flyer is usually good with this stuff, lets hope he hasnt left

stathem
02-02-2006, 03:26 AM
Hi there,

The BoB memorial flight's PrXIX is listed as PM631; That probably tallies with the number on your photos.

here it is in the same colours: I'm pretty sure it is still flying today. it did the flypast on the Trafalger day parade.

http://thumbs.fotopic.net/331000000792.jpg

which shows what I know, i thought it loked like a mk IX, well done Danjama!

Google Spitfire, PM631 for more photos; I'll try to ID the other a/c shortly, looks like a De Havilland something or other.

hop2002
02-02-2006, 03:34 AM
a what kind of spitfire is this?
b Does it still excist?
c does anybody have colourphoto's of it?

On your 3rd picture a partial serial number is visible near the tail. M631. The only airworthy Spit I know of that matches that serial is PM631, a Spitfire PR XIX. It's part of the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight:
http://www.raf.mod.uk/bbmf/fighters.html

If you do a Google search for Spitfire PM631 you'll find quite a bit more information.

Edit: Stathem beat me to it. Looks more like a Merlin Spit to me, too, but it does seem to be unarmed, which would fit PM631

CD_kp84yb
02-02-2006, 03:36 AM
Thx now i know what spit it is, i will make a notition on the back of the photo's

Hmmmm speaking of those pics, thats what i miss in IL2, 6DOF shame. you can see the pilot leaning out of the cockpit, and looking in front of the plane, cos he has also 3 runners as a guide ( one in front 2 at the sides)


Hmmm looks lik it

QUOTE

PM631 (Mk XIX)
Built in November 1945 as a high altitude photo reconnaissance aircraft with a Griffon 66 engine and pressurised cockpit, PM631 was too late to see operational service in WWII. She was delivered to the RAF in 1946 and issued to 203 Advanced Flying School in May 1949. Modified for meteorological work, she was leased to Short Bros and was flown by civilian pilots with the Temperature and Humidity Monitoring (THUM) Flight based at Hooton Park and Woodvale. On 11 July 1957, in formation with Spitfires PS853 and PS915, the aircraft was flown to Biggin Hill to form the Historic Aircraft Flight which later developed into the BBMF. Unlike the other two Mk XIXs that spent time as gate guardians, PM631 has remained in flying condition with the Flight and is the BBMF€s longest serving aircraft, with 2005 being her 48th year of continuous service on display duties.

PM631 is painted as an early PRXIX of 541 Squadron which performed high altitude reconnaissance missions over the European theatre from early 1944 to the end of the war. Appropriately the 541 Squadron motto was €˜Alone Above All€. Spitfire PRXIXs were unarmed but could fly at 370mph at 40,000 feet and had a range of 1500 miles.
END OF QUOTE

Looka like it has been repainted, in the color pics it has invasionstripes

stathem
02-02-2006, 03:52 AM
Airworthy Spits, particularly the BoBMF ones tend to get regular makeovers; I'll try to track down what squadron it represents in your photos.

Xiolablu3
02-02-2006, 03:54 AM
I thought mk9 too, well done on spotting that.

Is it the exhausts which give the griffon away? If so, whats th difference?

CD_kp84yb
02-02-2006, 04:09 AM
Thx,

would be hard to track the squadron, those pics are made with a 35mm so when you zoom them in the get a litle pixel (dont know the correct english word) and the are black and white.

But thx for your time anyway

stathem
02-02-2006, 04:13 AM
Well, the nose is longer and slightly lower. In the 3rd pic it looks like a Griffon version, but the in-flights look more like a Merlin. Oh, yeah, and 5-blade prop.

It seems PM631 was used in the Battle of Britain film in 1968. The code AD seems to belong to 113 squadron, which was a bomber squadron(flying Blemhiems), so I'm guessing it still retained that paintjob from the film, if those pics are from the 70's.

panther3485
02-02-2006, 04:15 AM
Hi there, CD_kp84yb

Danjama is right about this Spitfire being a Griffon-engined variant, however:

It cannot be a Mk.21, as it has the standard elliptical wing. (Mks 21 onwards had a newly designed, totally different wing).

Ignoring prototypes and experimental modifications, and looking only at production Griffon engined Spitfires, the Marks to consider are:


Mk. XII (12).
Entered service Feb '43, only 100 built. Optimized for short-range, low altitude interception.

As the standard Mk. XII had clipped wings, I think we can probably rule it out.


Mk. XIV (14).
Entered service Jan '44, 957 built.
Three main variants produced -
Standard XIVc with normal Spitfire canopy and normal unclipped 'C' wing
XIVe (with 'E' wing), some clipped and with bubble canopy.
XIVe low-level tactical fighter/reconnaissance version with clipped wings/bubble canopy and oblique camera in fuselage

Your candidate might be a standard Mk. XIVc or early XIVe.


Mk. XVIII (18).
Entered service May '45, 300 built.
All had cut-down rear fuselage and bubble canopy.

Yours isn't a Mk. XVIII.


Mk. XIX (19).
Entered service May '44, 225 built.
Dedicated photo-reconaissance version and the last of its kind to use the standard elliptical wing, unclipped.

Standard colour scheme for the Mk. XIX was light blue overall but post-war, some preserved/restored examples were painted in the fighter colour scheme to resemble the Mk. XIV.

Painted this way, it would be difficult to distinguish, apart from the absence of armament which could also, of course, be removed from the 14.

[There were also two somewhat different sized fin/rudder combos fitted to Spitfires during this series but those on the 14 and 19 (if I recall correctly), were the same, so let's not go into that unless we have to!]


So, in conclusion, your photos almost certainly show either a Mk. 14 or 19.

(What I can read of the serial code is '..M631' and further research may narrow it down to an exact aircraft, if that is the authentic code for this airframe.)


Hope that helps!

Best regards,
panther3485

CD_kp84yb
02-02-2006, 04:22 AM
Thx

I will try to scan that first photo again , in higher resolution ,maybe i can see the prop better, it is a blurry scan, but the pics arent big

panther3485
02-02-2006, 04:23 AM
Looks like I was a tad too late with my answer.... never mind! (Did the best I could, off-the-cuff and off the top of my head!)

The colour scheme appears to be late-war (44-45), so would be different from the schemes used in BoB.

Whoever matched the serial with the airframe - well done, that man!

But NO WAY does it look like a Mk IX (at least, not if you're a Spitfire buff!)

(Points of tell-tale difference can be discussed, if anyone wants to know!)


Best regards to all
panther3485

Xiolablu3
02-02-2006, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by panther3485:

But NO WAY does it look like a Mk IX (at least, not if you're a Spitfire buff!)

(Points of tell-tale difference can be discussed, if anyone wants to know!)


Best regards to all
panther3485

Yes please http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I have only studied the models in game, so I would like to know about the later versions and how to tell.

CD_kp84yb
02-02-2006, 04:40 AM
Its hard to tell what prop it has. found another pic of the show.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/Image1.jpg

It is not perfect quality.

Now this is a funny crate, it flew there also .hahahaha

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/airport8.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/Image4.jpg

whatever that may be.

Ow the show was between 1972 and 1975 , dont know exactly.

mynameisroland
02-02-2006, 04:44 AM
Late Griffon Spits like the Mk XIV had enlarged rudder surface , longer fuselage, 5 bladed rotol propellor, and two recessed cigar shaped bulges in the cowling to fit the bigger more powerful Rolls Royce Griffon. If you look at the radiators they are still symetrical like the IX but much deeper. The Spitfire XIV looks like a Spitfire IX on steroids.

stathem
02-02-2006, 04:55 AM
Originally posted by CD_kp84yb:
Its hard to tell what prop it has. found another pic of the show.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/Image1.jpg

It is not perfect quality.

Now this is a funny crate, it flew there also .hahahaha

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/airport8.jpg

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/cd_kp84yb/Image4.jpg

whatever that may be.

Ow the show was between 1972 and 1975 , dont know exactly.

Flying Flea?

stathem
02-02-2006, 05:03 AM
Originally posted by panther3485:
Looks like I was a tad too late with my answer.... never mind! (Did the best I could, off-the-cuff and off the top of my head!)

The colour scheme appears to be late-war (44-45), so would be different from the schemes used in BoB.

Whoever matched the serial with the airframe - well done, that man!

But NO WAY does it look like a Mk IX (at least, not if you're a Spitfire buff!)

(Points of tell-tale difference can be discussed, if anyone wants to know!)


Best regards to all
panther3485

That it was still in the colours it used in the BoB film is the best guess I could come up with; bearing in mind that the codes AD weren't used on a fighter squadron at the time of BoB. (60 and 113 Sq. used it in 1940, but both were Blenhiem Squadrons.)

One suspects that the filmmakers weren't perfect with either codes or colours.

Pinker15
02-02-2006, 05:34 AM
Im sure that is Spit XIV.

panther3485
02-02-2006, 05:49 AM
Hi there, Xiolablu3

Glad to be of help if I can.

We'll consider some main points of visual difference between, say, the Mk. VIII or IX and the Mk. XIV, the principal Wartime Griffon-engined variant.

These differences are (understandably) almost entirely connected with fitting the Griffon engine, which was of about one-third greater cubic capacity than the Merlin. The basic Griffon was also about 600 pounds heavier, 3 inches longer and had about 6 percent more frontal area. [Actually, this was quite an impressive achievement from Rolls-Royce's engineers, considering the boost in power that the new engined promised to deliver, once suitably developed.]

The Mk. XIV was essentially the Mk. VIII airframe, modified to accept the Griffon engine.

To accommodate the Griffon, the lines of the nose were changed considerably. It was, of course, a bit longer. More noticeably:

(a) When seen in profile, the top of the nose slopes gently downwards towards the prop, instead of being almost 'level'. (The Griffon engined Spitfires had a lower 'thrust line' than the Merlin engined variants.)

(b) When seen directly from the front, the upper half of the nose is more rounded in section, instead of being almost 'flat topped'.

(c) There are two distinctive fairing 'bulges' along the top of the nose on either side, starting just behind the prop and finishing behind the exhausts. (Clearly seen in profile and obvious from most frontal angles, if you look for them!)

(d) The prop spinner, though of similar pointed profile, is larger (fatter and longer).

(e) When the engine isn't running, the 5-bladed prop is one of the most striking differences. The blades are quite wide, too!

And....

To counter the extra power and torque of the new engine, the fin/rudder assembly had to be considerably enlarged.

You may be familiar with the 'pointed' fin/rudder of the Mk. VIII and late Mk. IX. (Mainly, if I recall, from changing the shape and size of the rudder rather than the fin itself). This offered some needed increase in area, as the later Merlins were producing more power.

In the Mk. XIV, the fin/rudder had to be enlarged considerably more yet, but was also a complete re-design. Not only was it now a lot bigger, it had completely lost any recognition of shape compared with the Merlin engined models and had a larger 'fillet', where the front edge of the fin joins the fuselage.


Again, most of these differences are fairly obvious from side angles, when you are looking for them.


In the photos shown on this thread, I suppose the 'underneath' shot is the one where the casual observer might think they are looking at a 9. But there's no mistaking the 14/19 characteristics in a couple of the other photos.


Hope this helps!


Best regards,
panther3485

panther3485
02-02-2006, 06:01 AM
Hiya stathem,

Quote:
"That it was still in the colours it used in the BoB film is the best guess I could come up with; bearing in mind that the codes AD weren't used on a fighter squadron at the time of BoB. (60 and 113 Sq. used it in 1940, but both were Blenhiem Squadrons.)
One suspects that the filmmakers weren't perfect with either codes or colours."

No worries mate! (Just me being pedantic again)

I'm sure the BoB movie makers weren't too fussy about squadron codes but if I recall, all the Spits and Hurris I saw were at least painted in approximately correct colours, i.e. Green and Dark Earth upper surfaces, with Sky or Sky/Black undersurfaces.

Late-war fighters were typically Green and Medium Grey on top, with Light Grey underside. The Sky coloured rear fuselage band was also not much used (if at all) until after BoB, if I recall.

Naturally, these photos being B&W, I can't be sure, so I'm just 'hunching it' they are using a late-war scheme (would fit with the late style RAF roundels as well).

Either way, we are both so close to a correct call here, I wouldn't sweat it!


Best regards,
panther3485

CD_kp84yb
02-02-2006, 11:32 AM
Ok thanks for the help guys, i now know what i have on photo now.

I had tried some searches on the number adc but that didnt helped me.

So again thx

skycaptain_1
02-02-2006, 12:45 PM
here's a better pic for you, it's still flying as was said earlier although repainted. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.pinkfish.org/56re.gif

CD_kp84yb
02-02-2006, 02:03 PM
Cool picture, yup that is her without any doubt.

Glad to see a clear picture.

Thx very much

danjama
02-02-2006, 03:09 PM
onthe 3rd pic u can see the nose is wider by the bumped out look, this is to house the griffon engine, thats how i knew it was a late, and the shape isnt a mk14, but looked to me like a mk19, not sure why, im weird like that

KrashanTopolova
02-02-2006, 04:45 PM
I go with a MkXIX because of the shape of the tailplane, the nose, the 5-bladed prop and mostly because of the two square underfuselage air intake ducts. Though none of these characteristics were necessarily unique to a Spitfire Mk. Many XIV Mk's [example E's], had a bubble canopy)and many MkXIX's were on a XIV airframe adapted to a MkV wing. identification of Spitfire type is therfore difficult in many circumstances.

2 Squadron RAF had designations PM6.. and flew XIX's. Other photo-reconnaissance aircraft had PR... etc.

Some RAF squadrons in Burma were of the designation in the 600's.; But the squadron marking 631 does not correspond to any listed Spitfire fighter squadron.

...However, could someone please explain what look like bf109 flaps hanging down in the first picture...?

You can see this particular Spitfire reproduced in colour poster in 'Classic Aircraft of World War II'; Bison Books, London, 1981 (in the section: Spitfire; by Chaz Bowyer)

Xiolablu3
02-02-2006, 11:07 PM
Thanks for your time in writing that guide Panther!

Helps me a lot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

luftluuver
02-02-2006, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by KrashanTopolova:
I go with a MkXIX because of the shape of the tailplane, the nose, the 5-bladed prop and mostly because of the two square underfuselage air intake ducts. Though none of these characteristics were necessarily unique to a Spitfire Mk. Many XIV Mk's [example E's], had a bubble canopy)and many MkXIX's were on a XIV airframe adapted to a MkV wing. identification of Spitfire type is therfore difficult in many circumstances.

2 Squadron RAF had designations PM6.. and flew XIX's. Other photo-reconnaissance aircraft had PR... etc.

Some RAF squadrons in Burma were of the designation in the 600's.; But the squadron marking 631 does not correspond to any listed Spitfire fighter squadron.

It has to be XIV as there is no window for the camera behind the cockpit even though the serial number says XIX. Also, iirc, the XIX in the Flight is painted grey.

KT, a good source for RAF squadron codes, http://www.stable.demon.co.uk/sqncodes/rafcode.htm

PM631 is the a/c's serial number.

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Real nic pics skycaptain. Thanks for posting them.</span>

panther3485
02-03-2006, 03:25 AM
Hi danjama,

Quote:

"onthe 3rd pic u can see the nose is wider by the bumped out look, this is to house the griffon engine, thats how i knew it was a late, and the shape isnt a mk14, but looked to me like a mk19, not sure why, im weird like that"

Between the 14 and 19, there is no perceptible difference in shape, for any of the recognition features I mentioned in my post to Xiolablu, provided , of course, that the basis of comparison is the 14 with the unclipped wings and standard rear fuselage/canopy. (It's a different story if you compare with the clipped/bubble canopy 14.)

Being a dedicated PR aircraft, the 19 had a number of differences, including (in all but the first few examples) a pressurized cockpit. It also had some variations of wing internal structure to allow different combinations of long-range fuel tankage.

None of these differences, however, would be readily visible from the outside and in shape/profile/outline, the two types would be very, very difficult to tell apart if the armament was removed from the 14 and they were both painted the same.

Conclusion: Purely from the shape of the aircraft in these photos, you couldn't narrow it down any further. Additional information would be needed - luckily, somebody had that information to hand.


Best regards,
panther3485

stathem
02-03-2006, 03:37 AM
I love this thread - it was great doing the work on it, made a change from the p***h hysteria. Btw I forgot to thank CD for the pics, thank you.

The conjecutre about the type does illustrate one of the advantages of the Spitfire series - how to identify which model you are facing in a fast moving combat environment. (Of course the same could be said of the Bf109 series) If you are a LW pilot in early '45, can you be sure of the tactics to use? Is it a XIV or IX?

Or in early 43 - V, IX or XII? Stick or twist?

IDing a V from a IX is even harder - you can see why FW190 units made themselves scarce more often once the IX was on the scene.

panther3485
02-03-2006, 05:02 AM
Hiya there, KrashanTopolova,

Quote 1:
"I go with a MkXIX because of the shape of the tailplane, the nose, the 5-bladed prop and mostly because of the two square underfuselage air intake ducts. Though none of these characteristics were necessarily unique to a Spitfire Mk. Many XIV Mk's [example E's], had a bubble canopy)and many MkXIX's were on a XIV airframe adapted to a MkV wing."

OK, here we go:

(a) Shape of tailplane - same for both marks!

(b) Nose - same for both marks!

(c) 5-blade prop - same for both marks!

(d) Those 'two square air intake ducts', as you call them, are not under the fuselage. They are under the wings (though not far from the fuselage). And they are the same for both marks!

(e) Only 225 Mk. XIX/PR.XIX were built. More than double that number of Mk. XIV's were built with standard fuselage and canopy alone. The fact that additional XIV's were built with cut-down fuselage, bubble canopy and clipped wings therefore becomes irrelevant for this comparison.

(f) No Mk. XIX's were built with 'standard' Mk. V wings. They used various adaptations of the so-called 'bowser' wings, used in PR.IV, PR.X and PR.XI aircraft (admittedly based on the Mk. V wing originally, but with considerable internal modifications). Seen from the outside, these wings were the same overall shape as used on Mk's IX and XIV. The differences were the internal structure and fuel tankage. Once again, irrelevant for this comparison.


Quote 2:
"....identification of Spitfire type is therfore difficult in many circumstances"

So it would seem, judging from some of the posts on this aircraft enthusiast's thread! However, it helps if you 'know your stuff'. Intimate knowledge of the Spitfire marks and their many variations makes a lot of the confusion disappear!


Quote 3:
"...However, could someone please explain what look like bf109 flaps hanging down in the first picture...?"

Yeah, no worries mate, happy to help.
These are the flaps at the back of the large box-shaped radiator housings mentioned in my answer (d) above. They are open to maximize airflow.


Best regards,
panther3485

panther3485
02-03-2006, 05:16 AM
Hiya, luftluuver,

Quote:
"It has to be XIV as there is no window for the camera behind the cockpit even though the serial number says XIX. Also, iirc, the XIX in the Flight is painted grey."

Careful! Post-war, preserved/restored Spitfires sometimes had minor mods made. For example, in this case the camera window could be removed and replaced with a blank panel (especially if it was intended to replicate the fighter version with the colour scheme). Or, it could even simply be painted over and that would still be difficult to spot in those photos!

As for the colour scheme, yes, I believe the BoB memorial Spitfire is painted in the later Green/Grey scheme, but then, it looks to me as if the one in the B&W photos is also painted that way. Can't be 100 percent sure of that, but I reckon my money would be reasonably safe if I betted on it.


Best regards,
panther3485

panther3485
02-03-2006, 05:28 AM
Hi again, Xiolablu3,

Quote:
"Thanks for your time in writing that guide Panther! Helps me a lot"

No worries, mate, my pleasure. Gave me an opportunity to rant about one of my favourite planes!

It did occur to me, though, the old saying, "One picture is worth a thousand words." I have some very good photos and line drawings of the various Spitfire marks but (and I know this sounds dumb), I don't know how to post them on a thread here. Illustrations like that help a lot, to understand the many variations seen on Spitfires.

Anyway, glad to have been of help.


Best regards,
panther3485

panther3485
02-03-2006, 07:50 AM
Small correction to one of my previous posts:

Quote:

"(e) Only 225 Mk. XIX/PR.XIX were built. More than double that number of Mk. XIV's were built with standard fuselage and canopy alone. The fact that additional XIV's were built with cut-down fuselage, bubble canopy and clipped wings therefore becomes irrelevant for this comparison."

The first part of that should have read:

"(e) Only 225 Mk. XIX/PR.XIX were built. Almost double that number of Mk. XIV's were built with standard fuselage and canopy alone."

Apologies there, but I was working from memory alone. This doesn't make any difference to the effect of my statement but I thought I'd better post the correction anyway.

Apologies also, if I seem to get a little carried away. Tends to happen when it's one of my 'pet' passions. (I'm even more passionate about my WW2 AFV's and I got really carried away in another recent thread, talking about the Soviet T-34 tank.)


Best regards to all,
panther3485

WOLFMondo
02-03-2006, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by panther3485:
Hi again, Xiolablu3,

Quote:
"Thanks for your time in writing that guide Panther! Helps me a lot"

No worries, mate, my pleasure. Gave me an opportunity to rant about one of my favourite planes!

It did occur to me, though, the old saying, "One picture is worth a thousand words." I have some very good photos and line drawings of the various Spitfire marks but (and I know this sounds dumb), I don't know how to post them on a thread here. Illustrations like that help a lot, to understand the many variations seen on Spitfires.

Anyway, glad to have been of help.


Best regards,
panther3485

If you want to post them you need to host them first, somewhere like photobucket or imageshack. Then you get the URL of the image, by right clicking on it, once its hosted and getting the URL from the properties. Then when you post a new message click on the 'image' button (the little landscape icon just abover the text field) and put in the URL of the image there.

If you have firefox its a little easier because you can right click on an image and click on 'get image location'.

panther3485
02-03-2006, 08:14 AM
Hi, WOLFMondo,

Thanks for that info. Looks like I've got a bit to learn if I want to post piccies!

One of my mates is into all that 'hosting' and URL type stuff (I wouldn't have a clue about any of that). I'll see if I can get him to walk me through it. Also, never heard of 'photobucket' or 'imageshack'. Shows what an ignoramus I am when it comes to some things.

We'll see what develops.

Thanks again,


Best regards,
panther3485

WOLFMondo
02-03-2006, 08:18 AM
Links are below. Its all pretty self explanitory.

http://photobucket.com/

http://www.imageshack.us/

panther3485
02-03-2006, 08:40 AM
Thanks again, WOLFMondo,

I'll study them at my leisure, over the weekend.


Best regards,
panther3485

luftluuver
02-03-2006, 08:56 AM
Here is another one, http://www.villagephotos.com

panther3485
02-03-2006, 09:00 AM
Thanks, luftluuver,

I'll check that one out as well!


Best regards,
panther3485

bravo6001950
02-03-2006, 11:17 AM
Thoght this might help from the BBMF website. PM631 (Mk XIX)
Built in November 1945 as a high altitude photo reconnaissance aircraft with a Griffon 66 engine and pressurised cockpit, PM631 was too late to see operational service in WWII. She was delivered to the RAF in 1946 and issued to 203 Advanced Flying School in May 1949. Modified for meteorological work, she was leased to Short Bros and was flown by civilian pilots with the Temperature and Humidity Monitoring (THUM) Flight based at Hooton Park and Woodvale. On 11 July 1957, in formation with Spitfires PS853 and PS915, the aircraft was flown to Biggin Hill to form the Historic Aircraft Flight which later developed into the BBMF. Unlike the other two Mk XIXs that spent time as gate guardians, PM631 has remained in flying condition with the Flight and is the BBMF€s longest serving aircraft, with 2005 being her 48th year of continuous service on display duties.

PM631 is painted as an early PRXIX of 541 Squadron which performed high altitude reconnaissance missions over the European theatre from early 1944 to the end of the war. Appropriately the 541 Squadron motto was €˜Alone Above All€. Spitfire PRXIXs were unarmed but could fly at 370mph at 40,000 feet and had a range of 1500 miles.



Supermarine Spitfire Mk XIX PM631


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PS915 (Mk XIX)
PS915 entered service just too late for the war, joining 541 Squadron at Benson in June 1945 before moving to the PR Development Unit to take part in tests of new cameras. Assigned to 2 Squadron at Wunsdorf in Germany she later flew strategic reconnaissance sorties in connection with the East/West divide of Europe. She was returned to the UK in 1951, moving to 9 MU at Cosford before joining the THUM Flight at Woodvale in 1954. In 1957, PS915 became a founder member of the Historic Aircraft Flight, the forerunner of the BBMF, but was quickly retired to gate-guardian duties, serving in that capacity for nearly 30 years at West Malling, Leuchars and Brawdy. She re-joined the BBMF in 1987 after being modified to take an ex-Shackleton Griffon 58 engine and refurbished to flying condition by British Aerospace (Warton Division).



PS915 currently wears the colour scheme and markings of PS888, a PRXIX of 81 Squadron based at Seletar in Singapore during the Malaya Campaign. This aircraft conducted the last ever operational sortie by an RAF Spitfire when, on 1 April 1954, it flew a photographic mission over an area of jungle in Johore thought to contain hideouts for Communist guerrillas. For the occasion the aircraft€s ground crew painted the inscription €˜The Last!€ on the left side of the nose cowling.



Supermarine Spitfire Mk XIX PS915


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The Hurricanes
The Hurricane is one of the classic fighters of all time. It was designed and built for war and it played a major part in achieving final victory in 1945. The prototype made its maiden flight on 6 November 1935 and deliveries to the RAF commenced just before Christmas 1937 (to 111 Squadron at Northolt). A remarkable total of 14,533 Hurricanes were built and the aircraft served operationally on every day throughout hostilities. It was at the forefront of Britain€s defence in 1939/1940. During the Battle of Britain, RAF Fighter Command fielded almost twice as many Hurricanes as Spitfires; Hurricanes achieved a similarly greater proportion of kills. For the rest of the war the aircraft served in every operational theatre, in many roles and in 1945 Hurricanes were still in the front-line helping to ensure final victory in the Far East.






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LF363 (Mk IIc)
This aircraft is believed to be the last Hurricane ever to enter service with the RAF. It first flew on 1 January 1944; it was delivered to 5 MU on 28 January that year and was in continual service from then until a crash landing in 1991. The aircraft served with 63, 309 (Polish) and 26 Squadrons before the cessation of hostilities. Unlike many Hurricanes, LF363 was not scrapped but served on various station flights. She also appeared in the films €˜Angels One Five€, €˜Reach for the Sky€ (the story of Group Captain Douglas Bader€s life) and €˜The Battle of Britain€ as well as the television series €˜The War in the Air€. LF363 became a founding member of the RAF Historic Flight at Biggin Hill in July 1957.

On 11 September 1991, whilst enroute from Coningsby to Jersey, the aircraft€s engine started running rough, pouring smoke from all twelve exhaust stubs. The pilot attempted to land at Wittering but the engine failed completely at a late stage of the approach, resulting in a crash-landing on the airfield. The aircraft was seriously damaged by the crash and ensuing fierce fire; fortunately the pilot escaped with a broken ankle and minor burns. A complete re-build, by Historic Flying Ltd at Audley End, was commenced in 1994; the aircraft flew again for the first time in seven years in the autumn of 1998 and subsequently re-joined the Flight.

LF363€s misfortunes continued during 2004, when on 6 June, the starboard undercarriage collapsed on landing at Duxford. Fortunately the damage was relatively minor and the aircraft was fully repaired over the 2004/5 winter servicing period.

For the 2005 season LF 363 continues to wear the colours of €˜US-C€, a 56 Squadron Hurricane Mk1 from the summer of 1940 during the Squadron€s time at North Weald. Appropriately, 56 Squadron€s crest features a €˜Phoenix Rising from the Ashes€. The real €˜US-C€ it represents (R4197) was shot down in flames over Essex on 31 August 1940 after tangling with an overwhelming number of Bf110s from ZG26. The pilot, Pilot Officer Maurice Mounsden baled out, suffering severe burns in the process and subsequently became a member of the famous €˜Guinea Pig Club€ for burned airmen.



Hawker Hurricane Mk IIc LF363


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PZ865 (Mk IIc)
The last Hurricane ever built (of 14,533), PZ865 rolled off the production line at Langley, Buckinghamshire, in the summer of 1944 with the inscription €˜The Last of the Many€ on her port and starboard sides. The aircraft was almost immediately purchased back from the Air Ministry by Hawkers and initially mothballed, before being employed as a company communications and test aircraft. In 1950, wearing the civilian registration G-AMAU, it was entered in the Kings Cup Air Race by HRH Princess Margaret. Flown by Group Captain Peter Townsend it achieved second place. During the 1960s, PZ865 was returned to its wartime camouflage scheme and was used as a company €˜hack€ and communications aircraft. It appeared in €˜The Battle of Britain€ film and also made numerous display appearances, often in the hands of the famous fighter pilot and test pilot Bill Bedford. After a complete overhaul, PZ865 was flown to Coltishall in March 1972 and given to the Memorial Flight by Hawker Siddeley. For many years the aircraft appeared as €˜The Last of the Many€ but eventually the inscription was removed and put on display in the BBMF headquarters.

PZ865 emerged from a major servicing over the winter of 2004/5 in a new colour scheme representing Hurricane IIC BE581 €˜Night Reaper€ as flown by the Czech fighter ace Flt Lt Karel Kuttelwascher during night intruder operations from Tangmere in 1942 with No 1(F) Squadron.



Hawker Hurricane Mk IIc PZ865

THE NIGHT REAPER
Flt Lt Karel Kuttelwascher DFC*
and Hurricane IIc BE581

From 2005, BBMF Hurricane PZ865 will appear in the markings of Hurricane IIC BE581, as flown by the Czech fighter ace Flt Lt Karel Kuttelwascher during night intruders operations with the RAF€s legendary No 1(F) Squadron in 1942.

Karel Kuttelwascher joined the Czechoslovak Air Force in 1934 at the age of 18 and clocked up some 2,200 flying hours before the Germans occupied Czechoslovakia in 1939. Three months later, he made a dangerous and daring escape into Poland by hiding in a coal train. From there he was able to make his way to France where, flying Morane-Saulnier MS406 and Dewoitine D.520 fighter aircraft with the French Air Force, he fought in the fierce but brief Battle of France, claiming a number of German aircraft. When France fell, €˜Kut€ managed to escape to Britain via Algeria and Morocco and immediately joined the beleaguered RAF. On 3 October 1940 €˜Kut€ joined No 1 Squadron, just in time to earn his place as one of €˜The Few€, thereby becoming one of the 87 Czechoslovaks to fly with the RAF during the Battle of Britain.

€˜Kut€ or €˜Old Kuttel€ as his squadron colleagues sometimes affectionately called him, served a full two years with 1 Squadron. During the early €˜circus€ operations in 1941 he shot down three German Me Bf 109s and was credited with another as a €˜probable€. In July 1941, 1 Squadron moved to Tangmere, 3 miles east of Chichester, and it was from here that they commenced night intruder operations on 1 April 1942. €˜Kut€s experience and skill, plus his total professionalism and dedication to his craft, not to mention a burning determination and commitment to shoot down as many Luftwaffe aircraft as possible, then came to the fore. Night intruder operations required a pilot with cunning, cool nerves and good eyesight, and the ability to capitalise on a chance that would last only seconds and turn it into a kill. The single-seat Hurricanes were not radar equipped, so targets could only be found visually. The pilots flew long sorties of 3 to 3 hours (with long-range drop tanks fitted) often in poor conditions and completely alone. €˜Kut€ flew all his night intruder sorties in Hurricane IIc BE581. For at least some of this period of night intruder operations the aircraft retained its standard grey/green camouflage, whilst the underside was painted black. The squadron and aircraft codes JX-E were painted in red as was the spinner and it wore an emblem painted on the starboard side of the engine cowling, depicting a scythe in yellow and across it a banner in red carrying the name €˜Night Reaper€. A more appropriate name would be difficult to imagine as, in a brief 3-month period, €˜Kut€ shot down 15 enemy bombers over their own bases in France (including three in one night on 5 May) and damaged a further 5, earning himself a DFC and bar in the process, and all this in only 15 night missions. €˜Kut€ also shot up several German €˜E€ boats and steam locomotives on nights when he had ammunition to spare on the way home.

Quite remarkably, the rest of the war was relatively uneventful for €˜Kut€; whilst flying Mosquito night intruders he never even sighted another German aircraft. At the end of the war, he returned briefly to Czechoslovakia but in 1946, on the day that the communists effectively took control of his homeland, he flew back to Britain where he became a captain with British European Airways. His premature death came in August 1959 after a heart attack €" he was only 42.

Painted in the livery of BE581, BBMF Hurricane PZ865 commemorates a dangerous and productive time in No 1 Squadron€s history (22 enemy aircraft destroyed and 13 damaged) and the remarkable courage and effectiveness of one of the many Czechoslovakian fighter pilots who served so valiantly with the RAF during WWII.

CD_kp84yb
02-03-2006, 12:36 PM
Hi

Glad i could share my pictures, otherwise nobody would ever see them when they are in my album.
I realy learned something about the spitfire here, All my knowlegde bout the spit could be subscribed as "hey its a spitfire" , ok thats a litle overdone , but as i said before my interest lays with weapons,cannons and tanks WW2 ,partly as a result of my job for 18 years.

Hehe but i "fly" in this game rarely the spitfire.
More bombers, Fw,p38 and the early stuff.

Ok thx for all the info

danjama
02-03-2006, 01:56 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

panther3485
02-03-2006, 08:11 PM
Our pleasure, CD

(I'm sure I must also speak for the others here, as well a myself, who contributed to the ID of the Spitfire type from those photos and dug up various bits of info!)

That's one of the best things about being a member of this forum; sharing and comparing of information.

There are many occasions when other members have helped me with various info, so it's good to 'give back' whenever I can.


Best regards,
panther3485

CD_kp84yb
02-04-2006, 01:54 AM
Yup you are correct about the sharing info here in these forums.
But im realy happy this one didnt turn into the usual flame and insulting threats.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Regards

panther3485
02-04-2006, 03:23 AM
Quote:

"But im realy happy this one didnt turn into the usual flame and insulting threats."

Yeah, me too!

Too bad that does happen sometimes. We can't really stop people making posts like that, but we can resist the temptation to join them.

Nice to chat with mature, pleasant, well behaved and rational people. A real pleasure, in fact.


Best regards,
panther3485