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blindpugh
10-16-2005, 05:33 AM
Anybody noticed how difficult it is to kill a/c gunners in IL2-you pump hundreds of rounds into fuselage but you never kill the gunners.

FlatSpinMan
10-16-2005, 07:10 AM
Yeah, this is pretty widely known, as is their ability to nail you smack between the eyes from a distance of 800m while diving and pulling 8g's in heavy fog on a day when you weren't even flying. They're THAT good. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
10-16-2005, 07:24 AM
Yep..it's the same old problem that's been with us for a long time now.

Seems that no one wants to do anything about it, though.

Ta,
Norris

F19_Olli72
10-16-2005, 07:32 AM
Blindpugh; i suggest you look at Il2s construction. The crew in a Il2 basicly sits in an armoured 'bathtub'. If you want to kill the gunner go for attacks from above/behind. Shooting into the fuselage wont do it.

FlatSpinMan: What is also widely known is that AI gunners at times sometimes find it more fun to shoot in completely opposite direction of the attacker and often into the ground. Also they start shooting at redicilous distances giving away your position/wasting ammo. Sometimes they just sit there doing nothing while a bandit closes in for the kill 50 m at 6 o'clock.

Ive flown bombers a lot, my experience is that their hit ratio is about 2 - 3 %. Certainly nothing uber about it. Sure freak hits can be annoying if your at the recieving end.

Any bomber pilot (online) will tell you that relying on ai gunners will get you killed (quicker).

If you still think AI gunners are uber, your welcome to do my Ubergunner challange. Surprisingly (or not) noone has entered it yet:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/3371072913/r/3331073913#3331073913

Ubergunners is a myth.

NorrisMcWhirter
10-16-2005, 07:52 AM
^ I don't think he was specifically referring to Il-2s....but the game in general.

You may well be right about the statistics but when you've sprayed the fuselage (from beam) where the gunners are and you don't manage to kill them, it's a bit poor; especially so if you've ever stood inside a bomber and seen what protection the crew had.

Even more annoying is clearly hitting the un-armoured (unless they are like the Popemobile)'rear turret' of the Betty with many shots...only to have him return fire with one shot which takes out your engine and pilot.

Take the BoB for example. *Most* of the kills made were from within 6 degrees of dead 6 as pilots simply didn't have the skill to deflection shoot (they weren't like us with hundreds of hours of experience). Try attacking a He111 or Stuka from dead 6 in a Hurricane or Spitfire and check the statistics of getting critical damage as a result.

Stuka parties are unlikely in this game.

Ta,
Norris

JtD
10-16-2005, 07:53 AM
Actually the crew armor on the IL-2 protects the pilot only. The gunner was added as an afterthought and has no armor at all.

Anyway, AI gunners stink in comparism to decent human gunners. They have the odd lucky hit, but mostly they don't shoot at all and even if they happen to pull the trigger they usually shoot everywhere except the nearest enemy.

Kocur_
10-16-2005, 08:18 AM
Yup, Il2 gunner was not protected by that armour shell - it ended after fuel tank behind pilot. All the poor gunner had was 6mm plate protecting his...legs in some later series... Death ratio for Il-2 pilots/gunners was 1/7...

Kuna15
10-16-2005, 08:26 AM
For me gunnery issue is related to what I fly. If I fly a plane with great armament like FW-190A, there should be little to zero problems downing even B-17 bomber in one pass, so gunners are not big issue any more.

I must agree, however that I do not believe that they were so effective in real life. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
That is not bothering me so much since challenge is only greater. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have just played BoB VoW, I intercepted JU-88 formation in Spitfire MK.I. I parked on JU-88 six, all around me JU-88s on close range, I am pumping lead in target bomber for considerable ammount of time and pulling out from attack with slight/moderate damage -- only wing holes tho (I don't think that one bit of my aircraft would remain in one piece if I try that in FB http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

JtD
10-16-2005, 09:16 AM
The Germans did not invent all these funny intereception techniques (head on, high side, low side) and technology (Gr.21, R4M, Zellendusche etc.) because the bombers defenses were useless.

As a quick try I set myself up in a B-25J against 8 standard A6M5 pilots in the QMB. Once I had the AI fly and me manning the best gunnery stations and I shot down 8 Zeros in the first try - survived. The other times I again had the Ace AI fly the B-25, but also left all gun stations AI controlled. Best thing I got was one A6M5 that rammed me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

p1ngu666
10-16-2005, 09:41 AM
theres a big difference between a full AI plane, and one with a human in control.

with a human, they gunners are REALLY awful, hey look ill fire in a random direction, hey look ill fire at extreme range. hey dont chuck the plane about trying to escape the fighter which i didnt tell u about at all http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

stuka is the biggest difference. the AI one seems tougher than a il2 the rear gunner seems to have a bigger field of fire, amazing aim, and can take alot to kill. 110 is similer but not so bad, and both tend to have the switch to gunner and die instantly ffs thing aswell.

if irl your gunner acted like he does ingame, u would be very tempted to beat the **** out of him, and get him posted LMF

SeaNorris
10-16-2005, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by p1ngu666:
with a human, they gunners are REALLY awful, hey look ill fire in a random direction, hey look ill fire at extreme range. hey dont chuck the plane about trying to escape the fighter which i didnt tell u about at all http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

blindpugh
10-16-2005, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
^ I don't think he was specifically referring to Il-2s....but the game in general.

You may well be right about the statistics but when you've sprayed the fuselage (from beam) where the gunners are and you don't manage to kill them, it's a bit poor; especially so if you've ever stood inside a bomber and seen what protection the crew had.

Even more annoying is clearly hitting the un-armoured (unless they are like the Popemobile)'rear turret' of the Betty with many shots...only to have him return fire with one shot which takes out your engine and pilot.

Take the BoB for example. *Most* of the kills made were from within 6 degrees of dead 6 as pilots simply didn't have the skill to deflection shoot (they weren't like us with hundreds of hours of experience). Try attacking a He111 or Stuka from dead 6 in a Hurricane or Spitfire and check the statistics of getting critical damage as a result.

Stuka parties are unlikely in this game.

Ta,
Norris cheers norris you got the thread these gunners are firing from anything up to 800metres from a maving platform and on top of that gun recoil moving the mounting around i mean come on they wouldnt get within 29 yards of you at that range -but in the game they shoot you with one burst.instant damage.

F19_Ob
10-16-2005, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by JtD:
Actually the crew armor on the IL-2 protects the pilot only. The gunner was added as an afterthought and has no armor at all.


That may be true to the earliest models but later ones had an 13mm steel plate for the reargunner.
Il-2 M3 had it. I also have a cutaway wich shows that, and it also had a 13mm steel plate behind him aswell so nothing could hit the rear main fueltank located between pilot and gunner.

In ilmari Juutilainens book (Double fighter knight) a captured il-2 reargunner said he was advised by the pilot to hide behind the armourplate if enemy fighters showed up.

JtD
10-16-2005, 12:51 PM
Afaik the gunner later had a small 6mm armor plate towards the rear but still no armor to the sides, top or bottom like the pilot had.

Archangel2980
10-16-2005, 01:03 PM
lol AI gunners false scents of security.

horseback
10-16-2005, 01:18 PM
Pingu's got it right.

In an offline encounter, a human player has to deal with the ubergunner. It hardly matters if the enemy aircraft is an Ace or a Rookie, the gunners are all freakin' Davy Crocketts as long as they are aiming at the Player's aircraft. Online, or in a LAN multiplayer context, they are much less effective.

Against other AI piloted aircraft, again they revert to a more realistic norm, but it certainly appears to me that they enjoy much better protection and aim as long as they are being engaged by (or are engaging) the Player. Mind you, this only applies to the gunners, not pilots aiming fixed forward firing armament.

In an online or multiplayer context, it seems that different rules apply to the AI gunner, particularly if he's in YOUR back seat...

In real life, the rear quarter or low dead six attack on an isolated two seater aircraft was generally an easy kill-- the gunner had a much more difficult shot than the attacking pilot, and even when he was technically able to bring his pintle mounted gun(s) to bear, there was often no practical way to aim without leaving his seat (think about it- a fighter approaches from a low 4 or 8 o'clock position on a Stuka, Me-110, or Sturmovik- how is that gunner making that shot?). In-game, nine out of ten times, you're dead or your engine is kaput after one burst.

We've been told that it requires a lot more coding to get the ai to act realistically vs the unpredictable actions of the player, to 'ignore' the fact that they have perfect SA and microsecond reflexes, but that doesn't excuse bulletproof gunners or exaggerated cones of effective fire.

cheers

horseback

NorrisMcWhirter
10-16-2005, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by blindpugh:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
^ I don't think he was specifically referring to Il-2s....but the game in general.

You may well be right about the statistics but when you've sprayed the fuselage (from beam) where the gunners are and you don't manage to kill them, it's a bit poor; especially so if you've ever stood inside a bomber and seen what protection the crew had.

Even more annoying is clearly hitting the un-armoured (unless they are like the Popemobile)'rear turret' of the Betty with many shots...only to have him return fire with one shot which takes out your engine and pilot.

Take the BoB for example. *Most* of the kills made were from within 6 degrees of dead 6 as pilots simply didn't have the skill to deflection shoot (they weren't like us with hundreds of hours of experience). Try attacking a He111 or Stuka from dead 6 in a Hurricane or Spitfire and check the statistics of getting critical damage as a result.

Stuka parties are unlikely in this game.

Ta,
Norris cheers norris you got the thread these gunners are firing from anything up to 800metres from a maving platform and on top of that gun recoil moving the mounting around i mean come on they wouldnt get within 29 yards of you at that range -but in the game they shoot you with one burst.instant damage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is rare for people to actually read a post properly before replying, I know, but I do try http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ta,
Norris

F19_Olli72
10-16-2005, 02:14 PM
So noones up for my Ubergunner challange (Blindpugh?...FlatSpinMan?)? Strange....these ubergunner whines pop up now and then, but noone seems to want to document them on track under test conditions.

p1ngu666
10-16-2005, 02:30 PM
just come out of a coop
my rear gunner fired away at the ki43 that was INFRONT of me, wasteing 80-90% of my ammo, i was flying a a20

the rear gunner fires he cant possibilby see, and cant even hit...

shooting from a turret is much harder than a fighter plane aswell.

IRL, the powered turrets on british and american aircraft where the most effective.

i want the betty with the cut back framework for the rear gunner

Enforcer572005
10-16-2005, 07:35 PM
In offline, the skill level does effect the effectiveness of ai gunners against the player flown planes, for sure. Even with rookie skills, the gunners can still put an entire burst of fire into your engine at extreme range, but if you manuver aggressively and avoid sitting on their 6, you can usually survive wiht just some damage.

Eg: Chuck olders WTCF AVG cmpn, which is extremley well done as we're all aware, but when i tried to fly it, i was executed by all the high skill level gunners on the twin engine bombers, regardless of tactics ( i know that some of you can avoid that, but not most of us).

Once i went in the FMB and changed all the mediums to rookie, i could survive the gunners, albeit with varied degrees of damage. This is the case on every cmpn i flown, regardless, as i have reduced many bombers from average, vet, and even ace to rookie. If you dont, those gunners will become androids and blast you wiht all 10 rds from a 10 rd burst. Keep in mind this is offline and only against player planes.

its been consistant in my past 10 mos of flying nearly daily, and this is why i always make the multi engine bombers, and usually even the twin engine fighters, rookie in my cmpn projects.

and the average+ skill level bombers usually take out your engine. I had plenty of time to assess this in the nearly 5 mos it took to write and test my VVS fighters project. This seems to be the case regardless of bomber type.

if you dont want ai gunners to be androids off of star trek, then make them rookie, and dont fly straight on at them more than a couple of seconds.

civildog
10-16-2005, 11:28 PM
What I'd like to know is where can I get some of the magic .30 bullets that are fired from Heinkels and Betties that knock out my engine with a single hit without damaging me while I'm flying a Cobra?

Time and again I will have my guns jammed and - midline engine!!!! - knocked out or on fire from a tial gunner firing a single 30-cal machingun in the rear of a bomber! What the heck is up with that?

BTW: why don't the guns ever jam from long bursts or high-g manuevers? Or from cold weather icing them up? They only jam from damage. This is ridiculous. Someday I hope it gets fixed.

civildog
10-16-2005, 11:31 PM
The rear gunner in a shturmovik needs a Ppsh to lean out with and stitch up the 109's coming in from underneath.