PDA

View Full Version : Kawanishi N1K1-J SHIDEN "violet Lightning"



GK.
04-13-2004, 10:33 PM
Man i can't wait to fly this plane. With four 20mm cannons, 2mgs and capable of speeds up to 363mph this thing was a legend.

One account describes Lieutenant Kinsuke Muto , who in february of 1945 faced TWELVE Hellcats over Japan and he proceeded to engage SOLO. He downed 4 hellcats and the remaining 8 hellcats fled for their lives and were chased away (lol owned).

The shiden came out in 1943 and is described as, "powerful, fast, wellprotected, heavily armed, and among the few Japanese fighters that could stand up to the best American planes including the hellcat and the corsair. In the hands of the aces the shiden could easily outfly American planes."

GK.
04-13-2004, 10:33 PM
Man i can't wait to fly this plane. With four 20mm cannons, 2mgs and capable of speeds up to 363mph this thing was a legend.

One account describes Lieutenant Kinsuke Muto , who in february of 1945 faced TWELVE Hellcats over Japan and he proceeded to engage SOLO. He downed 4 hellcats and the remaining 8 hellcats fled for their lives and were chased away (lol owned).

The shiden came out in 1943 and is described as, "powerful, fast, wellprotected, heavily armed, and among the few Japanese fighters that could stand up to the best American planes including the hellcat and the corsair. In the hands of the aces the shiden could easily outfly American planes."

sugaki
04-13-2004, 10:39 PM
Let's hope so, don't wanna be competing against F4U's in an A6M5 till the end of the war.

GK.
04-13-2004, 10:45 PM
yeah carrier based planes are in trouble.

"The N1K1-J was first encountered by American forces in combat over Formosa and the Philippines. It was assigned the Allied code name George. It quickly established itself as one of the toughest and most troublesome Japanese fighters yet to be met in combat. It was a truly exceptional combat aircraft in the hands of an experienced pilot. It proved itself superior to most US shipboard fighters that it encountered, and many experienced Shiden pilots regarded the previously-formidable Grumman F6F Hellcat as a particularly easy "kill".
"

"Following the fall of the Philippines to US forces, the Shiden was met in large numbers during the invasion of Okinawa. A Japanese military communique reported an engagement in which a unit of 34 Shidens met a force of 70 Allied fighters, destroying 20 of them against a loss of only twelve of their number. Shidens also equipped the 343rd Kokutai the First Air Fleet based at Tinian, and were later based at Shikoku in Japan in defense of the home islands during the spring of 1945.
"

WUAF_Badsight
04-14-2004, 12:00 AM
the Hayate was superior to it in all flight performance

WUAF_Badsight
04-14-2004, 12:03 AM
unlike the Hayate ..... the first model Shindens had flight problems

their handeling was affected by a poor center of balance

Penguin_PFF
04-14-2004, 12:24 AM
The Hellcat-Whooping Wonder Plane of 1945 that you're fantasizing about is the N1K2-J Shiden-Kai Type 21, which was a very different beast from the N1K1-J Shiden Type 11. Same engine, and similar shape, but different armament, different airframe, different engineering. And, incidentally, Saburo Sakai described it as (I'm paraphrasing) a "second-rate airplane by a second-rate company". There was one "Squadron of Experts" outfitted entirely with Shiden-Kai, and in this same quote Sakai describes this squadron's commander (last name Genda) as an "idiot" and for portraying the N1K2-J as a world-beater to the high command.

The real meat of this particular aircraft type was the N1K1-J, an earlier plane with a mid-mounted wing, podded cannons, and a compound telescoping landing gear. There were at least twice as many Shidens made as Shiden-Kais. I think the numbers are something like ~1100 vs. ~550.

The Shiden supposedly handled well as long as the pilot kept the speed up and stayed in the proper altitude range, because there was a performance drop-off at high altitude. Durability was very good for a Japanese plane, and especially good considering that the whole chest of the airplane was a big fat freaking fuel tank. And of course, four 20mm cannons didn't hurt, but there were only 100 rounds per cannon. Sounds like a B&Z plane to me, really.

Giganoni
04-14-2004, 01:55 AM
Genda helped with Pearl Harbor or was a mastermind. The squadron of aces was the 343rd kokutai..which had Muto as well. Unfortunately, although the shiden was great when it worked, (it WAS a little tail heavy so it couldn't climb too fast. A little slow as well.) it seems from the stuff I read that it was rarely working properly.

Besides if you want something that eats Hellcats and asks for seconds, you want the Goshikisen. It's famous for its destruction of Hellcats.

RAC_Pips
04-14-2004, 02:08 AM
And not to squash your enthusiasm GK,but the story you have recounted concerning Kinsuki (sometimes written as Kaneyoshi) Muto is a fabrication.

It was a story put out by the Japanese Bureau of Propaganda in an effort to boost public morale. It worked, as Kaneyoshi became an overnight hero. Ever since then that story has appeared in print by countless author's.

It took an author the calibre of Henry Sakaida to put it to rest. It is still a good story though. Muto was part of an 11 plane flight of 343 Kokutai. They did bounce a flight of 12 Hellcats and Muto did shot down 4. They were the only victory claims by the Japanese, who in turn lost 3 Shiden.

He was an outstanding pilot, considered by Saburo to be one of the best. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

sugaki
04-14-2004, 02:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
the Hayate was superior to it in all flight performance<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shidenkai had superior handling to the Hayate I believe. But Hayate had a much better top speed and rate of climb.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Sounds like a B&Z plane to me, really.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was a dogfighter, not B&Z.

I'd prefer the Shidenkai over the Shiden; The Shiden was notorious for its unreliable long landing gears that took like 20 seconds to come out ..and even then no guarantees that it'd be okay.

-Aki

RedDeth
04-14-2004, 02:52 AM
this is goodknights thread. dont expect reality from a guy thats been banned from ubi forums and from CWOS forums. it takes a whole lot to get banned from cwos forums where they let you cuss each other out and still post there.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of 12 time Champions AFJ http://www.alloutwar.com/IL2FS/round9.cfm http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
04-14-2004, 03:20 AM
just because GoodKnight is better than every single AFJ is no need to be trying to slander RedDress

you & i well know why he was banned at UBI & CWOS

& it had nothing to do with "reality" or your percieved lack of it

KIMURA
04-14-2004, 04:41 AM
That "Muto met 12 Hellcats" thing actually never took place. That happening was a morale boosting story as the situation became very hard to the IJN.

Source "Henry Sakaida, IJN aces of WWII"

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/reviews/covers/sakaida/aces_ijn.jpg

Ruy Horta
04-14-2004, 05:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Penguin_PFF:
The real meat of this particular aircraft type was the N1K1-J, an earlier plane with a mid-mounted wing, podded cannons, and a compound telescoping landing gear. There were at least twice as many Shidens made as Shiden-Kais. I think the numbers are something like ~1100 vs. ~550.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not have Classic's latest work on the Shiden, but the generally acceptable work of Francillon states:

9 N1K1-J prototypes
998 N1K1-J production aircraft
8 N1K2-J prototypes
393 N1K2-J production aircraft (incl. a number of N1K2-K)
2 N1K3-J prototypes
2 N1K4-J prototypes
1 N1K4-A prototypes

22 N1K2-J production aircraft produced at various plants.

--------
1435 a/c

423 N1K2-J (& N1K2-K)

415 J2M2 & J2M3 doesn't even reflect too badly compared to this figure.

Relatively small production numbers, but that's not only the case with these Japanese types (compare for instance certain Italian types which were important as a type, but numerically not impressive in terms of production).

Ruy Horta

Penguin_PFF
04-14-2004, 05:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sugaki:
I'd prefer the Shidenkai over the Shiden; The Shiden was notorious for its unreliable long landing gears that took like 20 seconds to come out ..and even then no guarantees that it'd be okay.

-Aki<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*ahem* Not that anybody should read anything into this - pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! - but Aki, do you happen to have any technical info on the landing gear system?

I prefer the Shiden-Kai over the Shiden as well, from an engineering standpoint it's a much better aircraft. It's a better expression of the original design concept (a land version of the Kyofu).

04-14-2004, 05:56 AM
Never the Less, it does sound like there could be some interesting Late War DF server Scenarios created.

S!

kozhe
04-14-2004, 06:30 AM
Saburo Sakai said that the N1K1 was a crappy plane, built by a second class company.

What i would really love to fly is a Ki-100 :P

GK.
04-14-2004, 10:16 AM
That story is not a myth. The myth that it is a myth is american propaganda. Japans aces, though few, were just better pilots.

GK.
04-14-2004, 10:41 AM
Sakai never said that. The book samurai! has dubius research and the credibility is questionable.

"For many years Sakai's score was considered to be 64. This has turned out to be a number that can not be verified. Sakai himself never made a claim for any specific number of kills. The number 64 was arrived at by Martin Caidin when he was doing research for "Samurai!", the autobiography of Saburo Sakai. Many, more reputable historians now wonder at Caiden's research, as well as his morals, given that Saburo Sakai was paid little if any money from the book, to which he contributed the most information.
"

KIMURA
04-14-2004, 11:06 AM
That the N1K1-J was bad, that statement came not from Sakai but rather from another Pearl Harbor veteran, sadly I forgot his name. As that veteran climbed out the N1K1-J cockpit, he just said 2 words: "No good!"

GK.
04-14-2004, 11:15 AM
The Shiden Kai was to become perhaps the best all-round fighter to be operational in the Pacific theatre. It was fast, powerful, and maneuverable, and was well-armed and armored. In the hands of an experienced pilot, the Shiden-Kai was the equal of any Allied fighter, even the later models of the P-51 Mustang which began to appear over Japan in the spring of 1945. In one notable action, on February 16 1945 over Yokohama, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto of the 343rd Kokutai in an N1K2-J single-handedly battled a dozen F6F Hellcats. He shot down four of them before the rest were forced to break off combat and return to their carrier. However, against the B-29, the N1K2-J was less successful, since its climbing speed was insufficient and the power of the Homare 21 engine fell off rather rapidly at higher altitudes.

KIMURA
04-14-2004, 11:39 AM
GK that dogfight with WO Muto vs.the 12 Hellcats never took place, that's amyth that survived to these days. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

sugaki
04-14-2004, 12:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>*ahem* Not that anybody should read anything into this - pay no attention to the man behind the curtain! - but Aki, do you happen to have any technical info on the landing gear system?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mmm, it's not an "authentic link" per say (but then again, it's hard to say anything's authentic on the net.)

http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~t_miyama/georgleg.html

Due to the wing placed in the middle of the fueselage, the gears needed to be a lot longer so the propellers could clear the ground.

They devised a landing gear where the leg shrinks, then folds using oil pressure. Initial prototypes took a whopping 120-180 seconds to retract the landing gear completely, which was reduced to 20-40 seconds in the production version. Even then a lot of troubles occured where the gears wouldn't lock, or the gears wouldn't come out at all.

The Shiden landing gear is distinct in that it has two components that can shrink: the lower component for the suspension, which shrinks/expands according to weight applied to it; the top shrinks just so the gear can be retracted into the wing, as indicated by the diagram link. This complex structure proved very unreliable, and was justifiably axed for the Shidenkai.

The landing gear cover on the wing rotates to cover the wheels, another distinctive landing gear feature of the Shiden.

Contrast this to the Shidenkai, which only has one shrinking component, the suspension. After taking off, the lack of weight applied to the gear causes the cylinder to stretch, allowing the torque link to flatten out so it won't jut into the wing when retracting.

http://www5a.biglobe.ne.jp/~t_miyama/geogleg2.html

Hope that's thorough enough http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Aki

GK.
04-14-2004, 12:42 PM
The N1K2-J shared with the Ki.84 the ability to be an "ace-maker," with performance such that an average pilot in a Shiden-Kai was the equal of any Allied fighter he met, including the P-51D Mustang. In June 1945, Warrant Officer Kinsuke Muto - a pilot of exceptional skill - was jumped by 12 F6F Hellcats. He succeeded in shooting down four before the others broke to escape back to their carrier and he successfully landed his damaged Shiden-Kai back at Yokosuka airfield. Although the airplane was outstanding in fighter vs. fighter combat, it was a disappointment in the one category that was really needed: high altitude interception against the B-29s. the N1K2-J suffered poor climb above 22,000 feet due to loss of engine power above that altitude.

chris455
04-14-2004, 01:33 PM
[QUOTE] GK:
"The N1K2-J shared with the Ki.84 the ability to be an "ace-maker," with performance such that an average pilot in a Shiden-Kai was the equal of any Allied fighter he met, including the P-51D Mustang".

We have entered into the realm of science fiction with the above post. It's official.

With a top speed of 363 mph, how could it be considered "the equal of any Allied fighter"?
Even a P-40N (max speed 380mph) could extend away from it horizontally.
Which means ANY allied fighter in the PTO could choose to engage/disengage at will, either using speed to extend away or by diving. Where do we get this "superior" myth? Are you talking about that silly turnfighting stuff? What Allied pilot did that in 1945?
Work with me here.

Any "average" Japanese pilot facing veteran allied airmen by 1945 had better be wearing his thousand-stitch belt, no matter what he was flying, "be sure".


http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

[This message was edited by chris455 on Wed April 14 2004 at 12:45 PM.]

sugaki
04-14-2004, 02:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We have entered into the realm of science fiction with the above post. It's official.

With a top speed of 363 mph, how could it be considered "the equal of any Allied fighter"?
Even a P-40N (max speed 380mph) could extend away from it horizontally.
Which means ANY allied fighter in the PTO could choose to engage/disengage at will, either using speed to extend away or by diving. Where do we get this "superior" myth? Are you talking about that silly __turnfighting__ stuff? What Allied pilot did _that_ in 1945?
Work with me here.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Science fiction? Your assessment of air combat is overly simplified. You're essentially saying "the plane with the fastest max speed wins," which isn't any less silly than "that silly turnfighting stuff."

You're arguing that any plane can disengage safely just because it has a higher max speed ...especially in comparing the Shidenkai and F6F, F6F's don't disengage with ease. You have to consider acceleration, altittude, rate of climb.

Don't be so quick to make sly quips about the inferiority of certain airplanes simply because the max speed is lower. Max speed is achieved after flying straight for a long time at a certain altittude, using emergency power. If you keep going with full throttle, your engine will eventually overheat, making you a pretty vulnerable target.

The fact that you're implying that a P-40 is better than a Shidenkai shows your assessment is too simplistic, and ventures more into "science fiction" than other posts made in this thread.

chris455
04-14-2004, 02:52 PM
Wrong on all counts Sugaki.

First, please don't put words in my mouth,
re: "The fact that you're implying that a P-40 is better than a Shidenkai................."

I never said "better" -I'll leave those kinds of subjective statements to GK. I said it could extend away horizontally. It can.

And again:
"You're arguing that any plane can disengage safely just because it has a higher max speed ..."

No, I'm not. And I'll ask you again not to put words in my mouth.
Did you bother to read my whole post before unleashing your vitriol, Sugaki? If you had you would have seen my reference to diving in addition to my statements about horizontal extension. I'm going to assume you don't think a Shiden could dive with a P-38 or P-47. Likewise, it is a given that you don't extend away until it is safe to do so, speed adavantage or no. Most people here recognize that. Thanks for reminding us.

(I'm not sure it could dive with a P-40) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

If you do, say so- but please don't lecture me about ACM with statements like, "Max speed is achieved after flying straight for a long time...".
I'll bet we're both beyond "Airplanes 1A", so don't do that, OK?

Please read, and if necessary re-read, the entire post before engaging in verbal histrionics. I'll extend the same courtesy to you-
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

[This message was edited by chris455 on Wed April 14 2004 at 02:40 PM.]

Giganoni
04-14-2004, 03:30 PM
Hey..I just hope the Shiden makes it into the game..I don't want to be flying against hellcats in zeros or spitfires in Ki-43s the whole time. Just most of the time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

sugaki
04-14-2004, 03:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Wrong on all counts Sugaki.

First, please don't put words in my mouth,
re: "The fact that you're implying that a P-40 is better than a Shidenkai................."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. Let's return to your original post.

"With a top speed of 363 mph, how could it be considered the equal of any Allied fighter"?

This is a rhetorical question, with the actual statement being "The Shidenkai cannot be considered an equal of any allied allied fighter, with its top speed of 363 mph." (emphasis mine)

Note you stated "any" allied fighter. That blanket statement in of itself is already brash, and quite emotive and rhetorical; is the Brewster Buffalo than superior to the Shiden? Obviously not. But that's what you're asserting. Use of the word "any" would also necessarily include the P40.

Furthermore, you cite the P40's max speed, saying that the "P-40N (max speed 380mph) could extend away from it horizontally."

First you establish that the Shiden cannot be an equal, let alone superior to any allied fighter due to its max speed, then you immediately use the P40 as an example. The logical flow of the sentence means that you're using the P40 to back up the assertion that the Shiden isn't an equal to any allied fighter. Since you're trying to support that the Shiden is not an equal, you have to be presupposing that the P40 is superior for the succeeding statement to make sense as a support.

If you believe the P40 is inferior to the Shiden, then you cannot use the P40's max speed as an example of Shiden's general inferiority to Allied fighters. Your support example would then contradict what the initial statement is trying to make.

Maybe that's not what you intended to say, but that's exactly how it sounds.

chris455
04-14-2004, 03:44 PM
I for one hope we do get it, Giganoni. It was a great plane, and served in numbers large enough that it should not be ignored. I'm also sure that Luthier is aware of this, and will include it in the game. Maybe not in the first release, but definitely in an add-on or patch.
S!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Giganoni:
Hey..I just hope the Shiden makes it into the game..I don't want to be flying against hellcats in zeros or spitfires in Ki-43s the whole time. Just most of the time http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

P-DEX
04-14-2004, 03:46 PM
You like the George? I recommend the book "Genda's Blade", just recently published and written by Henry Sakaida. I have gotten about halfway through the book but it is a very interesting and informative read.

From what I can gather so far, Genda's "Squadron of Experts" contained some very good pilots flying good aircraft but were up against the wall immedaitely as fuel shortages, a woeful lack of spare parts, and never-ending US Navy, Marine and AAF attacks made their contributions noteable but unfortunately utterly hopeless. Still, when everything went right for the "Experts" (which was rare) they could really make life a living hell for the US forces.

And according to the pilots that flew her, the George was not a good high altitude fighter so the B-29 raids were rarely intercepted...they left that up to the Japanese Army Air Force. mainly.

chris455
04-14-2004, 04:14 PM
[QUOTE]From Sugaki:
"Maybe that's not what you intended to say, but that's exactly how it sounds".

I'm not responsible for how things "sound" to you my friend, only for what I say.

Also, paraphrasing my statements with what you deem as "actual" statements (which I never wrote, but are instead furnished by you to further your point) do not help us reach an understanding.

Critique what I say if you must, but don't think that putting words in my mouth will prove your point or further your cause.

Please go back and read GK's post "The N1K2-J shared with the Ki.84 the ability to be an "ace-maker,.........." and then re-read my post, bearing in mind that it was written in response.

GK's assertion, "The N1K2-J shared with the Ki.84 the ability to be an "ace-maker," with performance such that an average pilot in a Shiden-Kai was the equal of any Allied fighter he met, including the P-51D Mustang......" (italics mine) show the factual bankruptcy of GK's post that my post was intended to refute.

Giving GK carte-blanche to make fantastic statements while twisting my words and inserting others into my mouth show only your enthusiasm for the Shiden. No sin, of course, but if you go on record as being in agreement with incredible statements like the one in which GK is quoted, your credibility will definitely suffer as a result.

If you agree with GK's ravings, say so.

If not, there shouldn't have been any need to attack my rebuttal of GK's post.

S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

[This message was edited by chris455 on Wed April 14 2004 at 03:24 PM.]

[This message was edited by chris455 on Wed April 14 2004 at 03:25 PM.]

sugaki
04-14-2004, 05:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Also, paraphrasing my statements with what you deem as "actual" statements (which I never wrote, but are instead furnished by you to further your point) do not help us reach an understanding.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ick, I looked back at what I quoted, and I totally butchered your original statement. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif My humble apologies, didn't notice that "any" was actually originally GK's, and I used it against you. So I apologize.

Opinionated toward the Shiden? Well, since neither of us has established for a fact that it wasn't an equal to the P-51, we're both spouting opinions http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

While the Shiden had its issues, I still believe the Shidenkai fought on equal terms with any allied plane. Nor do I believe it to be science fiction -- you don't hear accounts of pilots of P51s, P47s or any plane for that matter ever calling the N1K1 an "easy kill."

People had trouble against the N1K1, not only because mainly only veterans flow it but because it was a good plane, aside from the horridly unreliable Kasei and Homare engines.

Overall, the P51's a better plane than the N1K1, I make no mistake of that. But it's not mismatched to pit a P51 against an N1K1, and depending on altittude and situation, both planes could land in serious trouble. A Ki-84's a better plane too, but I'd still consider the Shiden to be an equal to anything out there.

-Aki

GK.
04-14-2004, 05:59 PM
Yes I am familiar with that story. The squadron of aces, 343rd is a fascinating story. They were the only squadron to exclusively fly the shiden. Hey Chris, perhaps read up before you make statements like you have made. Just looking at your sig, and reading what you have wrote, you come off as extremely biased- Not a good thing when trying to pursue historical accuracy.

Here is more information on the shiden and its combat experience, and the top aces of Japan who flew this exceptional aircraft:

In March 1945, Captain Minoru Genda, one of the outstanding Japanese Naval officers of the war - he was the man who planned the Pearl Harbor attack - formed the 343rd Air Group, the only IJNAF organization to be completely mounted on the N1K2-J Shiden-Kai. The unit was known as "The Squadron of Experts" because it had the highest concentration of aces of any unit in the Japanese Navy.

On March 19, 1945, the group experienced their baptism of fire when Task Force 58 struck the Japanese naval base at Kure. Genda scrambled all three squadrons of the 343rd; first contact came when VBF-17 F6Fs from the "Bunker Hill" ran into flights from 407th and 701st squadrons. In a vicious dogfight, six Hellcats and six N1K2-Js went down; the battles continued, with the 343rd offering the only defense of the base. According to the group's records for that day, the three squadrons of the 343rd claimed 53 Hellcats and Corsairs, and four Helldivers, for a loss of 13. Chief Petty Officer Katsue Kato - one of the greatest Japanese aces of the war - scored nine of this total. Given that, at this stage of the war, the American pilots did not have the level of training their predecessors who had fought in 1942-44 had, such an outcome against pilots as experienced as those of the 343rd, mounted in an airplane like the Shiden-Kai, is not really that surprising. Had the IJNAF been able to re-equip with the Shiden-Kai in the numbers planned, the air battles over Japan in 1945 might have been very different, though the outcome of the war was no longer in doubt.

One of the outstanding pilots of the 343rd was Lt. Naoshi Kanno, the top-scoring Naval Academy graduate of the war. Kanno first saw combat in the N1K1-J Shiden with the original 343rd Air Group during the invasion of the Marianas in June 1944. Flying from the island of Yap, he shot down several B-24 Liberators using the head-on attack method. He was credited with 30 kills total in the summer of 1944. When the group was reorganized by Genda, Kanno was given command of the 301st Squadron. In the battle of March 19, the 301st initially took on Corsairs of VMF-123; Kanno was among the 13 shot down when he was hit by a Corsair from VBF-10, though he parachuted safely. Under Kanno's command, the 301st suffered the highest casualties of any unit in the 343rd, though it also had the highest score. Kanno himself was credited with 13 more victories while flying the N1K2-J, before being killed attacking B-24s over Yaku Island on August 1, 1945.

GK.
04-14-2004, 06:27 PM
My statements are not fantastic, if you think they are maybe you should proove otherwise.
I expect to see the Shiden and the ShidenKai in the original release of Pacific Fighters because it was a "standard" plane in the Japanese Navy as of 1943. True the original had some problems with the landing gear and pilots were often forced to land in grass fields but these problems were later resolved.
By the way Japanese pilots flying the shiden considered the hellcat an "easy kill". Your arguement that max speed = superiority has already been proven fallacious by sugaki.

I would also like to point out that russian pilots flying the yak3 considered fw190's to be an "easy kill" yet the fw was faster than the yak.
If you choose to still remain delusional about the performance of US aircraft despite historical evidence, that is your choice. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

chris455
04-14-2004, 07:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sugaki:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Also, paraphrasing my statements with what you deem as "actual" statements (which I never wrote, but are instead furnished by you to further your point) do not help us reach an understanding.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ick, I looked back at what I quoted, and I totally butchered your original statement. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif My humble apologies, didn't notice that "any" was actually originally GK's, and I used it against you. So I apologize.

Opinionated toward the Shiden? Well, since neither of us has established for a fact that it wasn't an equal to the P-51, we're both spouting opinions http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

While the Shiden had its issues, I still believe the Shidenkai fought on equal terms with any allied plane. Nor do I believe it to be science fiction -- you don't hear accounts of pilots of P51s, P47s or any plane for that matter ever calling the N1K1 an "easy kill."

People had trouble against the N1K1, not only because mainly only veterans flow it but because it was a good plane, aside from the horridly unreliable Kasei and Homare engines.

Overall, the P51's a better plane than the N1K1, I make no mistake of that. But it's not mismatched to pit a P51 against an N1K1, and depending on altittude and situation, both planes could land in serious trouble. A Ki-84's a better plane too, but I'd still consider the Shiden to be an equal to anything out there.

-Aki<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sugaki, thank you sincerely for accepting and understanding the spirit of my original post; apology accepted.

Peace-

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

chris455
04-14-2004, 07:10 PM
GK,
none but yourself delusional here amigo.
My "argument" that top speed equals superiority as you put it,never existed as has been shown in the exchange between myself and Sugaki.
You, GK, are an enthusiast- your true colors have already been revealed regarding the Shiden.We won't be expecting much in the way of objectivity from you. And unlike Sugaki, you're not even good at making your point. Just more incredible claims with a little ad hominem thrown in for effect. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

GK.
04-14-2004, 07:47 PM
Im posting facts, facts which you refuse to believe.

http://data.photodump.com/gk/tonysig.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
04-14-2004, 11:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:

You, GK, are an enthusiast- your true colors have already been revealed regarding the Shiden.We won't be expecting much in the way of objectivity from you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i dont use the Hayate half as much as i use the Bf109 or B239 or La-7 or Hurricanes yet im a "biased Japaneses Fanboy"

chris455
04-14-2004, 11:27 PM
I don't understand this post, Badsight.
I have heard you speak well of many American planes.
I don't ever recall calling you those things, If I did, I apologize.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:

You, GK, are an enthusiast- your true colors have already been revealed regarding the Shiden.We won't be expecting much in the way of objectivity from you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i dont use the Hayate half as much as i use the Bf109 or B239 or La-7 or Hurricanes yet im a "biased Japaneses Fanboy"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
04-15-2004, 02:56 AM
i dont care what im called

online i try to be a Fun host & anyone is welcome in my coops

i fly all planes & dont mind what colour i have to join to to keep teams even

i will rubbish a planes deficiencys & laud its strengths in the same post

lastly ...... WW2 ended over 50 years ago ------ we all know how it turned out

i see computer games as a way to re-create that time period AND to play out "what-if" senarios

chris455
04-15-2004, 10:36 AM
Well again, if I called you a "Fanboy" (I could swear I've never used that term) I'm sorry.
You and I disagree about alot of things but I do beleive you are at least objective.

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

Tully__
04-16-2004, 09:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
.....before unleashing your vitriol...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Time for a dictionary, I think "vitriol" is at the very least a gross exageration of the post you were referring to....and on further thought I don't really think "unleashed" applies to it either.

Granted, it does mildly disagree with you on some points though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

=================================================


http://members.optusnet.com.au/tully_78th/sig.jpg

IL2 Forums Moderator
Forum Terms of Use (http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm)

Salut
Tully

chris455
04-16-2004, 07:16 PM
Aw geez Tully,
Ya made me tone down my signature, now I gotta give up the hyperbole too?
I fly the Thunderbolt, what makes you think I can "do" subtle? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

arkadyfolkner
04-17-2004, 02:57 AM
Then there was the one Shinden that never made it beyond two prototypes. The Kyushu J7W1 Shinden.

J7W1 (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/IJARG/kyushuj7w1.html)

Top speed: 466mph, 4 30mm cannons canard type pusher fighter powered by a 2130hp 18-cylinder radial engine driving a six-bladed prop.

This sucker had a few problems, but otherwise was PURE EVIL ON A STICK.

chris455
04-17-2004, 07:34 AM
Probably would have been.
It flew for a grand total of 45 minutes.
Very interesting design though; But I don't think we'll see it in PF. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

GK.
04-17-2004, 12:18 PM
if someone models the bearcat, we will probably get this as well...eventually.

http://data.photodump.com/gk/shidensig.jpg
*Proud Chute Shooter*

Blackdog5555
04-17-2004, 02:01 PM
Production of N1K2-J didnt begin until June of 44. Only 423 were ever built. "In the final phase of the conflict, many ofthem shared the fate of other excellant aircraft, being sacrificed in suicide attacks". World War Two Combat Aircraft, by Angelucci. like the Bearcat, nice plane but a non factor. I'm sure there are some good stories but 423 total production means that only a couple a hundred were ever operational at one time on a good day. Some posters here need to get some counseling.

chris455
04-17-2004, 02:21 PM
Blackdog,
Do you have reliable figures for total N1K1 and N1K2 production?

At 423 units produced (your claim, I don't dispute it) I doubt that much more than 100 ever saw aerial combat. Kamikaze attacks as such aren't to be confused with air to air combat. The rest would probably have been idled by lack of fuel and spare parts, if they followed the fate of other Japanese planes of the period.

What does this say about 343 Kokutai, the "Squadron Of Experts"?

Any additional info you can share would be interesting.
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

Penguin_PFF
04-17-2004, 02:26 PM
My understanding was that they held off on using the N1K2-J as a Kamikaze because they were too modern to expend in that manner. The Shidens were more likely to be used that way. The Shiden-Kai, Raiden, and Shiden were probably the only aircraft capable of standing up to air attacks on the Home Islands as the war was coming to a close. Late-model Zeros might come in handy too.

Not that any of this matters, when any given Japanese squadron only had five or six aircraft operational in the summer of 1945...

Agreed on the counseling... Way too many people soil themselves over the percieved uber-ness of a plane. When you're low on gas, supplies & trained pilots, overworked, overwhelmed, tired, and outnumbered a minimum of six-to-one wherever you go, you've lost a lot of your advantages already. This phenomenon is somewhat like the hangup on the Ta 152 over at the Il-2 boards.

Besides, Sakai thought it was a lousy plane. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://www.danford.net/sakai2.htm

chris455
04-17-2004, 03:01 PM
Great post Penguin.
You know, I had forgotten that Sakai-san disapproved of the N1K2 Shiden.

"....a piece of crap made by a third-rate firm"
Whew. That guy was as deadly behind a typewriter as he was behind a gunsight.

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

Korolov
04-17-2004, 03:24 PM
That Shiden is a ugly POS. I'll take a Ki-61 or a Ki-100 instead, thank you very much.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

chris455
04-17-2004, 03:57 PM
Korolov,
You seem very well known for your prowess online, especially in the P-38.
What did you fly before it was available?

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

sugaki
04-17-2004, 04:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Penguin_PFF:
My understanding was that they held off on using the N1K2-J as a Kamikaze because they were too modern to expend in that manner. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To argue that they weren't used as Kamikaze due to being modern is incorrect--Many Ki-100's were expanded in Kamikaze attacks, despite its good performance. Toward the end even Shidenkais were used.

Back to Shidenkai's:

In March 1945, 54 Shidenkai's from Matsuyama base intercepted 100+ aircraft enroute to Kure at 5000 meters. US planes lost 57, 5 from AA, 4 Helldivers, the rest were F4U's and F6F's. 15 Shidenkais lost, as well as 1 Saiun.

*US side claims that they shot down 50 planes that day as well.

170 planes were recorded as being shot down by the 343 Shidenkais by the end of the war.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I doubt that much more than 100 ever saw aerial combat. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In one day of fighting more than half of your number saw combat. Many more saw aerial combat, not all at once of course.

343 had about 60 Shidenkais, other bases had them as well, including the 407, 701 Koukutai. At least including both Shiden and Shidenkai, the number is much greater than 100. Who knows what the actual stats were for the Shidenkai. Nobody really knows, so there's not much use in debating over it.

Shidenkais were made in small numbers and therefore couldn've affected the war greatly. But given that they only saw battle for about 6 months, always being outnumbered, and given the unreliability of the engines, they performed well in air combat.

Chirs455: 423 aircraft is correct. Kawanishi factory produced 400, Showa produced 2, and Mitsubishi produced 21, for a total of 423. A total of 376 Shidens and Shidenkais survived the war, so they weren't used that often for Kamikaze.

If anything, the Ki-84 Hayate was more influential since it was deployed in greater numbers.

Nevertheless, I still like the Shiden.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That Shiden is a ugly POS. I'll take a Ki-61 or a Ki-100 instead, thank you very much.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't understand the point of trash-talking an airplane that had respectable results.

Saburo Sakai didn't like the Shidenkai, but then again he never used it in battle since by that time he was a flight instructor due to his eye injury. So I'd put more weight on accounts of pilots who actually flew the plane in battle.

-Aki

[This message was edited by sugaki on Sat April 17 2004 at 03:40 PM.]

chris455
04-17-2004, 04:36 PM
Sugaki,
So the 423 figure is for both Shiden (N1K1) and Shiden-kai (N1K2)? This was total production?

Also what do your sources say about dates? When was the Shiden accepted for Squadron service? I'm not asking about prototypes mind you; I want to know what date the plane saw combat in something like squadron strength. I have early (probably January) 1944. Thanks.
Also Sugaki can you source your answers.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

Giganoni
04-17-2004, 04:42 PM
No, it is widely reported in all the sources I have that the 423 were the number of Shiden-kais.

sugaki
04-17-2004, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
Sugaki,
So the 423 figure is for_ both _ Shiden (N1K1) and Shiden-kai (N1K2)? This was total production?

Also what do your sources say about dates? When was the Shiden accepted for Squadron service? I'm not asking about prototypes mind you; I want to know what date the plane saw combat in something like squadron strength. I have early (probably January '44).Thanks.
Also Sugaki can you source your answers.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The source is from Japanese Navy records. Which can be seen by the Japanese book entitled: Nihonkaigun Seisiki ki taikan.

423 is Shidenkai only. 1007 Shidens were produced, of which 8 were prototypes.

-Aki

chris455
04-17-2004, 04:44 PM
Giganoni, help me understand what that means.
I'll phrase it a different way:
How many aircraft known to the Allies as "George" were built, in total, during WWII?
Thanks

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

chris455
04-17-2004, 04:46 PM
OK so, circa 1430 all types.
I think I've got it.
Thanks!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

Korolov
04-17-2004, 05:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
Korolov,
You seem very well known for your prowess online, especially in the P-38.
What did you fly before it was available?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Before FB, I spent most of my time in the Fw-190s. After it came out, I spent time in the new Fw-190 models, the IL-2s and the P-47. Sometimes hopped into the more obscure Yak types for fun.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Don't understand the point of trash-talking an airplane that had respectable results.

Saburo Sakai didn't like the Shidenkai, but then again he never used it in battle since by that time he was a flight instructor due to his eye injury. So I'd put more weight on accounts of pilots who actually flew the plane in battle.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey buddy, just because a plane has a excellent combat record, doesn't make it pleasing to look at (for some people.) The Ki-61 and Ki-100 are visually pleasing to look at - they LOOK fast and powerful! The Shiden looks like Frankenstein. I'd rather be shot down in style than win in ugliness. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/354.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

Korolov
04-17-2004, 05:15 PM
For comparison, here is the Ki-61 & Ki-100:

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/IJARG/images/ki61-2.jpg

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/IJARG/images/ki100-1.jpg

These were no slouch performers either - the Ki-61-II was capable of 379mph at altitude, although it had a rather unimpressive climb. The Ki-100 however had a initial climb rate of 1000m/minute! Both of these fighters were also lighter than the George.

Definately will be my rides in '44 and '45, not that ugly George. Bah. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
04-17-2004, 05:34 PM
the KI sure will be interesting to fly

has the Bf-109 E7 motor but in a Japanese airframe

can you imagine attacking a B-29 with a plane that has the performance of a Emil !?!?

& the Ki-100 . . . . . the fastest climbing Japanese fighter

was a Ki-61 but with the powerfull radial motor that were in production in japan at the time

chris455
04-17-2004, 05:46 PM
Years ago I actually had the privelege of meeting a former B-29 crewmember (Pilot/AC)
at an airshow here in San Diego. He stated that the only type of fighter they encountered at altitude was the Tony. They were able to make one head on pass, after that, the speed differential between the planes was such that a tail aproach took too long, and the Tonys would usually break off and head for home.

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

DIRTY-MAC
04-17-2004, 06:41 PM
Dont say the George looks ugly after this
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/cl-pln5/images7/Shidenkai2s.jpg



It looks like a flying pitbull

Penguin_PFF
04-17-2004, 09:16 PM
Yes, and that's also an artist's interpretation. Here's the fat, un-sleek, mid-wing, podded-gun, two-stage-landing-gear, unbalanced kludge that the N1K2-J was based on:

http://home.earthlink.net/~daniels369/misc/newproject/n1k1-j_85_left_large.gif

If it wasn't for the wing-fuselage fairings giving the plane some hips, it would be about as visually exciting as every other Japanese radial fighter. Meaning, it wouldn't be exciting at all.

Korolov
04-17-2004, 09:55 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
04-17-2004, 10:42 PM
thats a skewed pic

the book was bent when you scanned it

Penguin_PFF
04-17-2004, 11:57 PM
No.

Korolov
04-18-2004, 12:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
Years ago I actually had the privelege of meeting a former B-29 crewmember (Pilot/AC)
at an airshow here in San Diego. He stated that the only type of fighter they encountered at altitude was the Tony. They were able to make one head on pass, after that, the speed differential between the planes was such that a tail aproach took too long, and the Tonys would usually break off and head for home.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wonder why just the Tony? Doesn't seem like the kind of plane you'd use to attack bombers with. Maybe it was warm in the pit and handled well at alt?

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

Penguin_PFF
04-18-2004, 01:03 AM
I'm pretty sure it's the latter. It might be that the engine was supercharged as well (I can't recall).

Giganoni
04-18-2004, 05:00 AM
Tony had a higher service ceiling than a B-29 (B-29's ceiling was only 31,800 ft)...and my sources say it was used against the B-29, but so was the Shoki and the Toryu. Granted the Toryu was used mostly as a night fighter, but it could operate up there with the B-29s. The Shoki was a very fast climber..and faster (marginally) than a Tony so it worked well. I think it comes down to the fact that the Tony was Japan's most produced high altitude fighter, and therefore B-29 crewmembers may have faced those ones the most often. However, they were probably not the biggest threat ever to face bomber crews since the tony wasn't really designed to deal with bombers till the Ki-61 I KAIc and d c had 2 .50 cal and 2 20mm. D had the 20mm replaced with 30mm. It was the Ki-61 IIs that were the biggest threat to a bomber from a Tony, better speed and had 4 20mm cannons. These were getting into service right around the beginnings of the B-29 raids, or perhaps soon after.

If I had one aircraft I would not want to attack me if I was flying a B-29, (and it is a valid aircraft) It would be the Ki-44 IIc. With either 4 20mm cannons or 2mgs and 2 40mm cannons, it aptly deserved the name Demon. Fortunatly (for American pilots), few were made.

[This message was edited by Giganoni on Sun April 18 2004 at 04:16 AM.]

DIRTY-MAC
04-18-2004, 06:30 AM
most Japanese fighter were not suited for high alt fighting since their engines performed bad up high.
there still was some who could engage the B-29s
like the

Ki-61 "Tony", Ki-100

Ki-44 "Tojo"

late J2Ms "Raiden" (Mk 4-5s)

Ki-46 "Dinahs"

Ki 45 "Nicks"

thats what I recon

chris455
04-18-2004, 10:05 AM
My guess (about the fact that they recall encountering only the Tony) is what Korolov and Giganoni have already mentioned, the fact that the Tony was produced in quantity and therefore available and that it had a high service ceiling with it's supercharged engine.

I don't think their could have been any case of mistaken identity, IIRC the Tony was the only pointy-nosed fighter used in numbers by the Japanese.

BTW Giganoni, here is a source which shows the B-29 had a celing of 33,600 feet:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/systems/b-29-specs.htm

Just found this:

"The home defense units operating on Japan used a mixed bag of Ki-61 variants, essentially anything they could get their hands on. The most famous of these units was the 244th Sentai (Fighter Group) under Japanese ace Major Tembico Kobayashi. Major Kobayashi encouraged his men to perform frontal attacks on B-29s and press their assaults to close range, even ramming if that was what was needed. Major Kobayashi set an example by fighting with almost suicidal determination".

source:
http://www.vectorsite.net/avhien.html

Seems to corroborate what the B-29 pilot I spoke about was saying!



http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

[This message was edited by chris455 on Sun April 18 2004 at 09:32 AM.]

GK.
04-18-2004, 01:27 PM
Did someone just say the shiden was ugly?
Thats funny.

http://data.photodump.com/gk/shidensig.jpg
*Proud Chute Shooter*

Korolov
04-18-2004, 03:31 PM
Yeah it does look funny, doesn't it? Looks like a flying toilet paper roll.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

Giganoni
04-18-2004, 03:40 PM
I think a lot of fighters wouldn't win a beauty contest no matter what country they came from. I even think the P51 looks like a pregnant weasel.

Korolov
04-18-2004, 03:44 PM
Must be why they always had 11 other pregnant weasels around, when P-51s were flying.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

Penguin_PFF
04-18-2004, 06:27 PM
The Shiden is ugly on the ground. It looks much better in the air. To be fair, the N1K1-Jb looks much better on the ground, because there aren't any ungainly pods hanging off of it.

The Shiden-Kai is a different story. It's much better looking.