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luftluuver
07-30-2006, 04:48 AM
j-aircraft has an article on the performance of this Zeke.

CONCLUSION

The field data reviewed by this study indicate that Zeros operated by the Japanese performed relatively better against the Wildcat and Airacobra than did the Zero tested at San Diego. If the comparative performance of the San Diego Zero understated the performance of a typical Japanese operated Zero, this strongly indicates the quantitative performance was also understated. This tends to verify the conclusions reached in the section reviewing U.S. test results. The reasons for this seem obvious. The San Diego Zero was in less than perfect aerodynamic condition and was not operated at its optimum engine capacity or with automatic mixture control engaged. The figures cited in Summary No. 85 and repeated by Mikesh and Reardon are inaccurate and too low to represent the true performance of the Zero in Japanese operations.

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/rdunn/zeroperformance/zero_performance.htm

JG53Frankyboy
07-30-2006, 06:45 AM
the Zero has no lobby in this community http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

anyway, its always Maddox Games's choice wich sources they want to use for their FMs.........

and imagine the Model 21 would become better, than they would have to make also the Model 52 better - the F6Fs would get even more slaughtered online.

R_Target
07-30-2006, 08:01 AM
The Zero is a little slow. The Wildcat's too fast, and the Hellcat is way too slow under 15,000 ft.

p1ngu666
07-30-2006, 08:11 AM
i was a major zero whiner awhile ago.

they got so much wrong http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Feathered_IV
07-30-2006, 08:43 AM
As I understand it, Oleg drew most of his Model-21 information from Japanese sources already. He unporked it after PF Ver.1

That Koga Zero was put back together in a heck of a rush http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

*Ducking for cover from the approaching storm now*

luftluuver
07-30-2006, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
the Zero has no lobby in this community http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Who cares if there is a Zero lobby?

Was only posted for educational purposes, ie FYI. If anyone wants to take it further, they can.

JG53Frankyboy
07-30-2006, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by luftluuver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
the Zero has no lobby in this community http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Who cares if there is a Zero lobby?

Was only posted for educational purposes, ie FYI. If anyone wants to take it further, they can. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

perhaps you missunderstood something........but, imagine this would have been a post about the Mustang, 109 or Spitfire , we would have already pages of posts - about the Zero, few care...........

and btw, i know that given link already for a long time (i had bookmarked it). the best thing is the part were the combat pilot is calling these combat "tests" ,where it is said that the US planes are faster than the Zero, rubbish (or something similar http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

p1ngu666
07-30-2006, 04:34 PM
think the frase was flat wrong, or total wrong http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

JG53Frankyboy
07-30-2006, 04:36 PM
yep, this man should know it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"The F4F-4s of VF-5 commanded by Lt. Commander LeRoy Simpler flew against Zeros from a carrier in August 1942 and were land based on Guadalcanal during September and October 1942. Upon returning to the U.S. Simpler was apprised of the test report that said an F4F-4 was equal in speed to a Zero at low level. His comment was that the report was €œflat wrong.€ "

p1ngu666
07-30-2006, 04:40 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

WWMaxGunz
07-30-2006, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
and btw, i know that given link already for a long time (i had bookmarked it). the best thing is the part were the combat pilot is calling these combat "tests" ,where it is said that the US planes are faster than the Zero, rubbish (or something similar http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

There are still US pilots alive who seem to think that their P-40E's did go faster just
because... they did.

Same was said about the Wildcats, it was the only way to survive in those.

Hmmmm, think the P-38 was slower, or the P-51????

Must be the Corsairs that were slower, right? Or the Hellcats?

OTOH he may be taking about Dauntlesses, Avengers, SBD's, B-25's and other non-fighters.
I am sure the Zero was faster than the DC-3's, even in dives.

As above, Oleg received full data directly from Japan so settle down, hey?

luftluuver
07-30-2006, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
perhaps you missunderstood something........but, imagine this would have been a post about the Mustang, 109 or Spitfire , we would have already pages of posts - about the Zero, few care...........

and btw, i know that given link already for a long time (i had bookmarked it). the best thing is the part were the combat pilot is calling these combat "tests" ,where it is said that the US planes are faster than the Zero, rubbish (or something similar http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) Good for you if you already knew of the link, http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif but just maybe others did not. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Just maybe others, who are not gamers, and have an interest in WW2 aviation would like to read what was said. The 'FYI' was not adressed to you directly Franky.

horseback
07-30-2006, 11:27 PM
I'm not a big fan of tests or comparisons of one side's fighters against a captured, recovered or rebuilt fighter from the other side; at best, they are indicators of the quality of the opposition.

The 'San Diego Zero' was recovered after lying in the mud for a couple of months, rebuilt with a number of locally manufactured parts. For example, the badly damaged Sumitomo prop was replaced with a Hamilton Standard, but it hardly seems likely that the Hamilton Standard was a direct replacement for the Sumitomo-even though the Sumitomo was a built with a pre-war license from Hamilton Standard (did Mitsubishi ever get around to paying its wartime licensing fees to H-S?).

The engine probably was not up to manufacturer's standards after a few weeks in the mud, and no matter how skilled the American technicians working on it were, they were bound to get a few things wrong.

As for the Zero's speed, the Wildcat was a very sluggish bird, and not exactly in the same aerodynamic class as the Zero. AFAIK, only the Airacobra was in the same class as the A6M2 in accelleration up to about 13,000 ft.

Tests against the P-38F, P-40F (Merlin engine), and the Wildcat showed that the Zero had the advantage in accelleration from low speeds inherent to a tightly maneuvering fight. To add insult to injury, the rebuilt Zero needed significantly less maintenance and repair than any of the American fighters it was tested against in the fall/winter of 1942/43. At a top US military aviation testing and engineering center, this was beyond humbling. In the front lines, it translated into fewer fighters and less capable fighters for the Navy and USAAF in the first couple of years of US involvement.

But the top end of the Zero (and its Army cousin, the Oscar) was not as high as the US fighters' (with the notable exception of the Wildcat), and that did provide the clue to succesful Allied tactics against them-stay fast, don't turnfight, hit and dive away, and demand quality control at the point of manufacture.

cheers

horseback

Xiolablu3
07-31-2006, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
the Zero has no lobby in this community http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

anyway, its always Maddox Games's choice wich sources they want to use for their FMs.........

and imagine the Model 21 would become better, than they would have to make also the Model 52 better - the F6Fs would get even more slaughtered online.

In my experience its a very close fight between the 2 planes. The F4F and F6F certainly dont get slaughtered.

p1ngu666
07-31-2006, 12:25 AM
F4F, last time i flew it was even able to outperform a6m5's in some area's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

a6m5b, in nearly all writings about the zero, picked out as the best of the series, well that has a gun missing ingame...

JG53Frankyboy
07-31-2006, 01:40 AM
crimea, TAS at 50m altitude (4.05)

A6M2-21
435km/h

F4F-3/-4
455km/h

P-400
485km/h

P-40E
470km/h

WWMaxGunz
07-31-2006, 05:28 AM
F4F's were faster in a dive and that was how they were used, in slashing attacks that
they did win.

Not saying always or everywhere but what combat is about is the side with the initiative
choosing to engage or leave and then comes the real test. Completely different is this
idea of aerial jousting with two planes starting close and even or these other stat vs
stat matchups.

To ask which is faster or turns better or whatever as if show one place one is true and
then always everywhere you expect the one to meet that 'better'... just shows ignorance.

Examples of combat situations and combat pilot's assessments at:
http://www.warbirdforum.com/schilling.htm

ElAurens
07-31-2006, 05:38 AM
Max, the fact remains that the F4F series in the game is indeed overmodeled in terms of top speed, or the A6M series is undermodeled. One way or the other.

No one is arguing tactics or the final outcome of the war here. Simply stating that the A6m series in the game is underperforming compared to it's adversaries.

WWMaxGunz
07-31-2006, 06:11 AM
Is the Zero performing to the SD restored model even though Oleg got data from Japan?
It doesn't seem to be undermodelled in dives, does it?

What is the Wildcat data? Not relative or pilots assessments but actual data?
Remember that Oleg is supposed to be using best or near best data on non-Russian planes
so maybe Wildcats are to best Grumman sales-to-Navy figures?

GerritJ9
07-31-2006, 08:06 AM
The A6M2-21 is is about 10-20 kph IAS too slow, the F4F-3 seems about right and the F2A-2 is way off at 5000 m altitude, by some 40-50 kph IAS (the other Brewsters are too slow at altitude as well). 1C did correct the A6M2's performance somewhat, not 100% but enough to get it close.

Ernst_Rohr
07-31-2006, 10:32 AM
One thing to point out, by most reports and historical documents, the F4 was badly outclassed by the Zero in maneuver, climbing, range, armament and beat the Zero in diving, durability, and pilot protection.

The speed difference was slight, but a clean Zero was aerodynamically "faster" than the Wildcat. The Zero's acceleration was far superior to the Wildcat.

The Wildcat was able to compete with the Zero by diving attacks, use of the Thach Weave, and by diving away from combat.

Current FM's for the two seem to indicate that the Wildcat is more or less close to historical performance, with the speed at altitude and climb being slightly better than historical. The Zero is slightly slower and the climb is slightly slower as well.

Either way, the models are pretty close, and in that regards arent probably to far off. ALL planes in IL2 perform a heck of a lot better than the historical record indicates. Since they dont have "real" wear and tear, poor maintainance, contaminated fuel, field repairs and mods, or any of the other historical issues that the real world aircraft did.

p1ngu666
07-31-2006, 10:35 AM
zeros break up at the maxium dive speed u find in various books etc actully.

eg, say max speed was 650kph, your fine to 649, 650/651 plane falls apart. theres NO margin of "extra" speed as they are modeled ingame.

most other planes ingame sail past there max dive speeds, and sometimes a fair bit beyond.

really, the zeros arent that great in this game.