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gprr
04-29-2006, 02:26 PM
Hi guyz

Anyone knows how to operate the belly gun on PE-2 models?

Thanks
gprr

gprr
04-29-2006, 02:26 PM
Hi guyz

Anyone knows how to operate the belly gun on PE-2 models?

Thanks
gprr

georgeo76
04-29-2006, 04:00 PM
Belly gun is AI only, something to do w/ the game engine, same deal as the ventral guns on the Ju88.

AKA_TAGERT
04-29-2006, 04:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by georgeo76:
Belly gun is AI only, something to do w/ the game engine, same deal as the ventral guns on the Ju88. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>that is a shame.. I was looking forward to manning that gun

Low_Flyer_MkVb
04-29-2006, 04:27 PM
Well I always wanted to be a Mosquito navigator - still, can't have everything. eh? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Stackhouse25th
04-29-2006, 04:43 PM
i was wondering what the hell was shooting at me!!!

PBNA-Boosher
04-29-2006, 09:11 PM
As quoted from Oleg:

The belly gun positions are not man-able due to the fact that for the belly and both waist gun positions, there was only one man. That man was the navigator, radio operator, as well as a gunner for 3 separate points. Furthermore, he only had one MG to do it usually. That gunner needed to take his gun off the platform manually, re-insert it into another station, charge it, then fire. When the target moved out of that field of view, he had to unmount the gun, re-mount it somewhere else, and charge it again. The Pe-2's central station was the most busy position for one person in aerial history.

Aaron_GT
04-30-2006, 12:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The Pe-2's central station was the most busy position for one person in aerial history. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From memory it's the same deal as the B25A, I think, but that wasn't mass produced. No wonder they changed the armament setup for the B25B!

Esel1964
04-30-2006, 12:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
As quoted from Oleg:

The belly gun positions are not man-able due to the fact that for the belly and both waist gun positions, there was only one man. That man was the navigator, radio operator, as well as a gunner for 3 separate points. Furthermore, he only had one MG to do it usually. That gunner needed to take his gun off the platform manually, re-insert it into another station, charge it, then fire. When the target moved out of that field of view, he had to unmount the gun, re-mount it somewhere else, and charge it again. The Pe-2's central station was the most busy position for one person in aerial history. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that's 'multitasking'.

luthier1
04-30-2006, 01:09 AM
Here's the gun that was not to be:

http://www.rrgstudios.com/img/pe2/Pe-2_Gun01.jpg
http://www.rrgstudios.com/img/pe2/Pe-2_Gun02.jpg
http://www.rrgstudios.com/img/pe2/Pe-2_Gun03.jpg

The ventral position would have been controlled through a telescopic sight a-la bombardier view.

Unfortunately, as posted above, it was turned out to be impossible to do in the IL-2 engine. There was one guy sitting there, switching between positions. In some earlier versions he only had a single gun, so he had to physically take the gun out of one socket and install it in the different one. With AI-only guns we can manage this kind of, but with a player control we'd have situations where you're blazing out of the left socket and AI is blazing out of the right one, etc.

So there you have it.

gprr
04-30-2006, 08:18 AM
Hello friedns

Most graeful for all your help and information.

Cheers
gprr

Agamemnon22
04-30-2006, 08:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
As quoted from Oleg:

The belly gun positions are not man-able due to the fact that for the belly and both waist gun positions, there was only one man. That man was the navigator, radio operator, as well as a gunner for 3 separate points. Furthermore, he only had one MG to do it usually. That gunner needed to take his gun off the platform manually, re-insert it into another station, charge it, then fire. When the target moved out of that field of view, he had to unmount the gun, re-mount it somewhere else, and charge it again. The Pe-2's central station was the most busy position for one person in aerial history. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I read, the stronger guys were able to fire the ShKAS "from the hip", without remounting it, just sticking the barrel out the window. No record of how successfull they were. Actually, the general opinion seems to be that these were more or less psychological weapons, since it was next to impossible to hit anything from the side windows, and the ventral position had a fairly limited field of fire, and the gunner wasn't always on it since he was so busy with everything else! Plus, they're rifle-caliber guns in the earlier versions, so even if you luck out with a hit, it's hardly a kill. So it seems the point was to put out as many tracers as possible to make the enemy nervous, and use the plane's speed to run the heck away.

airdale1960
04-30-2006, 11:42 AM
The 7.62 X 54R(Rimmed) cartridge pack quite a punch for a rifle bullet, it could tear up a radiator. But you are right, would take a lot of spraying and praying.

Kocur_
04-30-2006, 12:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by airdale1960:
The 7.62 X 54R(Rimmed) cartridge pack quite a punch for a rifle bullet, it could tear up a radiator. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The "punch" or rather KE was (is actually, as its still Russia and PRC rifle cartridge) usual for that rounds category, similar to those of 7,92mm x 57, .30-06 etc. Thus ShKAS was as (in)effective as other RCMGs.

p1ngu666
04-30-2006, 01:58 PM
sodding shame i think. u should have atleast put in the belly gun as player operated.

as someone whos flown the bombers ingame, something i strongly suspect the dev crew havent, then i speak from resonably extensive experience.

the side guns are mostly useless. i hardly ever use them.

a belly gun would be MOST useful, especialy so u can see downwards. the view down isnt there, and when i flew it for 5mins in qmb every time i was jumped by fighters they got be from the low 6, the view there is awful from the top turret.

besides im fairly sure the periscope belly gun is possible, remmber the ju88 belly gun from leaked beta? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

i know ive been harsh, but heck i dont know what u guys are thinking.

maybe its "no one likes bombers, so lets make there operation as hard as possible, mainly through bypassing the advantages of a multicrewed plane." if we can cut down the ammount of cockpits, put in the mediocure versions, not have gun interupter gear, chuck in some ******ed gunners, who simply cant be relied apon to be anything other than ******ed, thus forcing the player tobe pilot, bomb aimer, navigator, flight engeneer and numous gunners at the same time!. thatll teach em to go back to there hero dogfighter planes."

perhaps some reading of the history, especialy the origin of air combat would be worthwhile.

briefly - the first aircraft where intended and used for recon, that was the primary task of aircraft. find the enemy, and see what the dirty sob is upto.

then they decided, hmmm, we could bomb him aswell, so then came bombers

lastly, and in a second role where fighters, to intercept the primary aircraft, or to escort them.

we have no recon aircraft, and a handful of bombers. and how many fighters? im talking about flyable...

all the bombers are effected by issues that really shouldnt be there aswell.

and that cockpit there for the pe2 is beautiful, which makes it even more of a shame.

luthier1
04-30-2006, 02:00 PM
Pingu, I suggest you read the rest of the thread.

p1ngu666
04-30-2006, 02:25 PM
i have.

im suggesting modeling the belly gun ONLY, and leaving the side guns.

thats a agreeable solution. u could model all the guns anyways, as the ai on human planes absolutely awful, they wont hit anything the vast majority of the time anyways.

luthier1
04-30-2006, 02:28 PM
Pingu, apparently you keep missing this part:

"The belly gun positions are not man-able due to the fact that for the belly and both waist gun positions, there was only one man. That man was the navigator, radio operator, as well as a gunner for 3 separate points. Furthermore, he only had one MG to do it usually. That gunner needed to take his gun off the platform manually, re-insert it into another station, charge it, then fire. When the target moved out of that field of view, he had to unmount the gun, re-mount it somewhere else, and charge it again. The Pe-2's central station was the most busy position for one person in aerial history."

HerrGraf
04-30-2006, 02:39 PM
Perhapls p1ngu means that if you man the belly position that the ai gunner would dissappear.

p1ngu666
04-30-2006, 03:13 PM
yes ive read THAT luthier.

but as a player heres what I see.

oh pilot position, bombsite fair enuff, upper rear gunner as expected, pilot, erm wheres the rear guy. oh look im completely vunrable to the lower rear, oh joy a AI gunner, as much use as a chocolate teapot.

imo uve crippled the operational effectiveness of the plane severaly.

incidently, its unlikely to matter if theres 3 guns firing, because they all have different fields of fire by quite abit.

so unless your being followed closely by 3 enemy, in the right place there unlikely to hit. heck there VERY unlikely to fire and or hit aswell, the way human/ai gunners are.