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Samuel5093
02-11-2004, 11:23 AM
Hy everybody, how yall doing. I've got al little problem. I'm currently flying the dynamic finnish campaign with the hurricane. Although this plane has 8 .303, I don't really think that it does much damage!! When I'm up against an I-16, I can't even get it smoking. So far I have 4 kills in 5 flights. I guess I always killed the pilot. I was just wondering how your experiences are with the plane. Let me now, allright!!

Samuel5093
02-11-2004, 11:23 AM
Hy everybody, how yall doing. I've got al little problem. I'm currently flying the dynamic finnish campaign with the hurricane. Although this plane has 8 .303, I don't really think that it does much damage!! When I'm up against an I-16, I can't even get it smoking. So far I have 4 kills in 5 flights. I guess I always killed the pilot. I was just wondering how your experiences are with the plane. Let me now, allright!!

XyZspineZyX
02-11-2004, 11:37 AM
What's your range?

As was the case in real life, there were varying impressions of the 8 x .303 package, ranging from totally ineffective to devastating. Seems like it came down to firing range. In close, they tore you a new one. Firing at 300 meters and longer, by overeager or scared-sh**less newbie pilots, they seemed to do nothing.

But, make no mistake, there were a lot of Heinkel and Stuka (and 109) pilots on the receiving end of those guns who failed to make it home.

DONB3397
02-11-2004, 11:48 AM
Stiglr gave you some good advice. Set your convergence at 200-250m and get in close. The shot pattern will be tighter. Try to "squeeze the trigger." One of the problems is scattering the fire because in the excitement a pilot jerks the joystick and sprays bullets all over the sky. Not much damage, then.

If the plane your attacking has a rear-firing gunner (IL2, Stuka, etc.), try to get under its tail where the gunner can't get at you. The Mk1 isn't the most agile a/c, so avoid violent maneuvers. Like the real plane, the flight model causes the engine to cough or die when you push over in a dive. Roll it over and split-S if you've got the room.

Good luck.

clint-ruin
02-11-2004, 12:02 PM
Small cal bullets - 7.62, 7.92, .30, .303, etc, simply aren't much good for attacking anything other than human beings. Ask some veterans sometime and you'll no doubt find a few mentioning that these kinds of rounds can be stopped or deflected by plain old wood [non ply], thin metal, even heavy clothing in some rare situations. Trying to blast .303 rounds through a radial engine is unlikely to give you a high number of kills per sortie.

You are indeed going to have to try for pilot kills. The best thing to try and do is to use the Hurris tight turning ability to set up high angle deflection shots, making the enemy plane fly perpendicular to you, and fire your guns only at the precise convergence. Visualise making the enemy fly through your sights so that you at least get a shot on them that makes all of your rounds hit the centreline of the target - along the planes 12 through to its 6, preferably from "above" so you can score hits on the cockpit directly. Don't try for "structural" kills - you can occasionally make a wing fall off, but it's very expensive on ammo.

In FB, the inline engined planes don't stand up to too many hits from the 12 .303s, by the way, but getting in enough of those kinds of shots can take a while to set up. The HurriII is unusual for a "turn fighter" in that it does actually take some patience and discrimination to use effectively. You do not have the hitting power to sit on the 6 o'clock of a target and blast away, nor the speed/climb to pop up and dive down on a target to give the .303s a better penetrating angle.

In 1.21 you will need a minimum of 8 direct hits on a Bf109-Es engine from the Hurris .303s to make it pour out thick black smoke, with head on or high angle shots making this much, much more likely. A more usual scenario is 10 to 20 hits. There is one component in the engines damage model that can only take a very small number of hits, but getting that particular shot can be a real pain given the shotgun-like spread from the .303s. As with every plane and every kind of round in FB, don't assess your damage from the 'total' number of hits scored on a plane - only the number of hits on a specific location counts. For exaple, the "weak" BF109s structure can take up to 36 ShVAK 20mm hits if you target each particular damage location individually, but can be taken down with as little as one 12.7mm hit - if that round lands in the right place at the right angle.

If you intend to make the II/b your ride of choice I would highly recommend spending some time with FB 1.21, setting "arcade=1" in FB's conf.ini file, and record some tracks. You get a lot of guns, and a lot of rounds, but you need to make your shots count due to their poor individual hitting power.

Thankfully you have already worked out to shoot for the pilot so you're already most of the way there. However, note that even pilot kills are harder to obtain against the closed cockpit planes, since most cockpit armour and armoured glass of the era was rated to resist those very sized rounds. The fact that the I-16 has an open cockpit is about the only thing that makes the Hurri able to compete with it at all, since the I-16 is one of the few planes in the game that can compete with the Hurris turning circle.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

LeadSpitter_
02-11-2004, 12:03 PM
theres a problem with all small caliber weapons. Especially the hurricanes .303s, 8x and 12x .303s, I have ran out of ammo at 200m on emils

In reality even 2 7.92mm could down an i16 in a couple short bursts from 600 meters,

for example the .50 cal had stopping power against 190s and 109s from 1000 yards roughly 920m, in fb they are only effectlive under 500m.

Cnvergence helps slightly set for 100-200m and extremely close range. I dont think it will ever be fixed, its wierd tho you can tear wings off of planes with a couple long range bursts with the russian 12.7 mm at 500-800m. The stuka cant even destroy oildrums or jeeps with its guns

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EPP-Gibbs
02-11-2004, 12:45 PM
The above advice is correct. You have to set a tight convergence and get in close. That's what they found in 1940, too. 250 yards was preferred by many leading RAF pilots. That equates to 200-250 metres, near enough.

As regards the 8 or 12x.303 armament, it was found to be less effective against Bombers as their armour progressively increased, but proved to be effective against lightly armoured fighters, provided you got in close.

At the end of the day, the longer range of cannon armament didn't count for that much because you had to get in close to reliably hit a fighter anyway, and several notable RAF pilots, Bader for one, favoured the .303 armament over the Cannon. He flew a MkVA Spit for as long as he could.

How the .303 is modelled in FB is something that can be debated, but in the real conflict those 0.303 accounted for a lot German aircraft, principally bombers, and at a kill ratio of 1.8 to 1 in the RAF's favour.

Also in pure fighter v fighter combat, of aircraft hit the percentage destroyed is slightly higher in favour of the RAF. You have to allow for the fact that more German fighters would have crashed en route to base following damage, owing to the greater distance they had to travel, but, you could safely say that the .303 armament was at least as effective against fighters as the German cannon/mg mix.

Against armoured bombers though, it's a different story.

If I had all the money I'd spent on drink..I'd spend it on drink!

No601_Zulu
02-11-2004, 12:51 PM
The Squadron I fly with for Pilot career missions only fly Hurricane Mk1. I'm no expert, and like most in real life pilots and sim pilots have fired all ammo for little or no result. Having said that I've fired an accurate 2 second burst with good lead and angle i.e. a deflection shot and got a 109 burning and sent him on he's way to tera firma. The convergence setting as a guide from most 11 Group pilots is between 180 and 150 meters. That's nice and close, at 150 a Me109 will fit nicely inside the gun sight of the Hurricane. At that range 8x.303 will do a good job, a 2 second burst will give you 320 rounds. So the secret is to get an angle, get close, and squeeze.

If only it was that easy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

noshens
02-11-2004, 12:54 PM
I agree wiht LeadSpitter low caliber guns are way too weak. And that convergance crap doesn't help at all. I want to know how much you and real pilots had time and opportunity to come to 200m off your target and hold triger for as long as you have your ammo left to get the target smoking.

clint-ruin
02-11-2004, 01:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by yay1:
I agree wiht LeadSpitter low caliber guns are way too weak. And that convergance crap doesn't help at all. I want to know how much you and real pilots had time and opportunity to come to 200m off your target and hold triger for as long as you have your ammo left to get the target smoking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps you should try using an emulator such as MAME to play all those fantastic games where enemies explode properly where you hit them once, like 1942.

That you do not yet appreciate the way convergence effects hitting power shows you have a fair way to go in understanding FB gunnery.

Thanks for playing.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

noshens
02-11-2004, 01:25 PM
Thank you for recomending such great titles, but I didn't get your point. What are you saying that low caliber guns are properly modeled or you are saying that I don't know how convergence work? In both cases you are wrong.

Thanks for trying.

Samuel5093
02-11-2004, 01:38 PM
Thanx for the fast replies guys. I guess you're all wright. Just keep on training I guess.
Keep killing those german bastard guys!!

VW-IceFire
02-11-2004, 02:18 PM
Rifle calibre isn't the kind of all powerful weapon thats going to cause a structural failure like a heavy machine gun or a cannon is going to cause.

In a chart that I've seen floating around before...it showed where on a plane where rifle calibre shots would actually do critical levels of damage. Essentially engines, cockpit, and fuel tanks are the targets.

Now having flown about 10 missions in a Finish Hurricane MK 1 campaign...I know you don't account for more than a kill or two per mission but thats not too far off from reality. What we don't get is the structural weakening that a mass haze of .303 fire is going to cause...thats just not possible yet...but probably for BoB http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (better be!).

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woofiedog
02-11-2004, 02:29 PM
Samuel5093,
Try the C model of the Hurricane, with 4 20mm you can erase and or vaporize most aircraft from the Big Blue Skies!
Good Hunting and Welcome! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

clint-ruin
02-11-2004, 02:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by woofiedog:
Samuel5093,
Try the C model of the Hurricane, with 4 20mm you can erase and or vaporize most aircraft from the Big Blue Skies!
Good Hunting and Welcome! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If he's flying for the Finns he probably won't get to play with it :&lt;

But yes - the IIc and Field Mod are obviously a lot more powerful armament wise. The 8 and 12 gun Hurris can be used quite effectively against early war opposition, but as most here have said, you need to be very discriminating with your shots.

VW-Icefire:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
In a chart that I've seen floating around before...it showed where on a plane where rifle calibre shots would actually do critical levels of damage. Essentially engines, cockpit, and fuel tanks are the targets.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, and that's pretty much how it translates in FB too. Engines and cockpits are armoured on many of the Hurris competitors, though, so there's not a lot of 'one shot - one kill' going on with the .303s. Fuel tanks seem to be a fairly dicey target - the HEI value assigned by FB to the .303s doesn't seem to be enough to blow out a fuel tank very often.

They're damned small and light bullets - flatmate here in the new place is a WW2 collector and I can practically fit two of his .303s alongside my middle finger. Not a lot of mass or punch to go with them.

Another thing to bear in mind with the smaller rounds is that with FB's bullet bouncing/deflection model, low angle shots - such as those from behind a target - are a lot less likely to penetrate through the body of a plane or cause damage when they hit.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

DeerHunterUK
02-11-2004, 03:22 PM
Successful shooting in the Hurricane Mk I depends on 2 things.1st off convergence, this is a very personal setting as what's good for 1 pilot is often bad for another.But the maximum you want to set the guns for is 300m, play around using those settings then try setting them lower.Eventually you'll find right the setting just for, mine is set to 200m.The next most important thing about shooting in the Hurricane Mk I is aiming.This may sound obvious, but you'll be surprised how many pilots will just aim at anything expecting a wing or the tail section to fall off like they've been hit with cannon fire.There's 2 places you want to be aiming for (3 in a bomber or a Me-110...fueltanks), firstly the engine if you hit this hard enough he'll smoke if there's thick black smoke belching out of the engine then that's even better.Secondly, you want to aiming at the cockpit, it's nasty but a pilot kill is a good way of downing a plane.I've done this online quite a number of times in my Hurricane Mk I and it's effective especially if you're diving down on some1.
Another good tip is don't hose your target by holding down the fire button, short controlled bursts are the key and remember the old saying...when you think you're close enough to shoot, get closer.We don't use that range thingy so we have to guess the range of an enemy plane, I usually wait until the 109 wingtips fill my gunsight.
The Hurricane Mk I can be a very effective fighter against early war aircraft, the most aircraft I've downed in 1 mission are 5 Me-110s so it can be done, just don't get discouraged.
Hope this helps.

No1_Moggy
-----
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XyZspineZyX
02-11-2004, 03:24 PM
Leadspitter wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In reality even 2 7.92mm could down an i16 in a couple short bursts from 600 meters,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't this overstating things quite a bit? Small as an Ishak is, you probably can't even HIT the thing at 600m range http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif, let alone damage it.

Korolov
02-11-2004, 03:26 PM
For all .303 equipped Hurries, I use 100m convergence and plant myself on the target's tail. I found that setting this convergence and then getting right behind a I-16 and let him have it - usually resulted in a engine fire, PK or wing loss. Averaged about 2 kills per sortie, but sometimes 3 kills.

Anything higher than 100m convergence and anything farther than 200m range won't give you much results.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

Pit7413
02-11-2004, 03:53 PM
Well it's really rather simple physics!!!

British 0.303 MV = 745 m/s = 2444.35 fps = .46 Mile/s = 1666.6 mph....

MV= Muzzel Velocity
m/s= Meters per Second
fps= Feet Per Second
Mile/s= Miles per Second
mph= Miles Per Hour

A BB traveling at 1666.6 mph hitting an object square is going to do damage... a .303 round is a bit bigger than a BB!!! Put 8 .303 or more rounds in relatively to same spot... you ARE going to do a pretty fair amount of damage... so convergence is a BIG factor!!! And just like hunting prey... AIMING point is a critical factor. SIMPLE!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

No1_Pit

[This message was edited by Pit7413 on Wed February 11 2004 at 03:17 PM.]

mortoma
02-11-2004, 05:06 PM
Wierd!! I started a Finn campaign in the Hurri back in 1.21 and have continued it on occaision in 1.22 and never have I had any trouble whatsoever downing I-16s, or I-153s either for that matter. I pay no attention to what my convergence is set at, never have, in any plane with wing guns!! I have killed as many ( I-16 ) from direct six o'clock as I have with high angle deflections. I don't understand all of this fuss at all. I consistently kill anything in the little tiger and have downed my share of PE-8s!!
Although most of the time the PE-8s go far away and slowly crash from dead engines. But they still count.

Steaky_361st
02-11-2004, 08:44 PM
Try bombers with those .303s....you can get maybe one kill before you run out of what small amount of ammo you have http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

WUAF_Badsight
02-11-2004, 09:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Isn't this overstating things quite a bit? Small as an Ishak is, you probably can't even HIT the thing at 600m range http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif, let alone damage it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


HAR HAR HAR ... your so funny Stigler

600m easy

but as for the Hurri IIb ... i dont use it in my BoB coops anymore as its too good

first , it sprays so big a cloud of bullets that you will get hits no matter what

second , it takes down E7Z's & E4's sooo eaisly that there is no option but to equip the Brits with the Mk1

the DM for the Bf109 E series is REALLY REALLY WEAK

my personall best flying the Hurricane IIb is 4 Bf109 E7Z's downed on one ammo load

i have even made a Bf109 E7Z blow up completely with the Hurri IIb's guns ..... if i had knowen it was going to happen then i would have recorded that coop as i NEVER would have believed it was a thing possible to do in the Hurri IIb

this thread came just in time as i have focused on getting more early war coops & DF's in , at first i thought the Hurri IIb v Bf109 E4 would be a close match up

ennnhhh ... wrong its a slaughter

even the Bf109 E7Z is hard pressed to keep the Hurricane IIb at bay ...... better to match the Hurri Mk1 against those 2 in FB

leave the F2 & F4 for the Hurri IIb

02-11-2004, 09:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Perhaps you should try using an emulator such as MAME to play all those fantastic games where enemies explode properly where you hit them once, like 1942.

That you do not yet appreciate the way convergence effects hitting power shows you have a fair way to go in understanding FB gunnery.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My thoughts exactly.

A few quotes from the well known, Anthony William's latest article on the Battle of Britain(http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/BoB.htm):


"Tests by the RAF indicated that both the .303 and 7.92mm AP bullets had some problems penetrating the structure of the relatively small and light Blenheim bomber."


"Both guns were fired at a range of 200 yards (180m) through the rear fuselage at the 4 mm armour plate protecting the rear gunner, which was angled at 60º to the line of fire. The results in were poor; only 33% of the .303" rounds reached the armour (the rest being deflected or absorbed by the structure) and 6% penetrated it. In contrast, only 23% of the 7.92 mm bullets reached the armour, and just 1% penetrated."


"The key difference was of course the high explosive in the 20mm shells, which was enough to give the Bf 109E-4 almost double the destructive power of the British fighters."


"The Luftwaffe discovered that the most reliable way of bringing down aircraft was the general destructive effect of HE blast within the structure, rather than relying on being able to hit vital but small areas (e.g. the pilot!), which could be, and quickly were, protected by armour. For this reason, AP projectiles eventually disappeared from German cannon ammunition belts."


"Wing mounting had the disadvantage that the guns could all be harmonised to strike the same point at only one distance (the RAF initially selected 360 metres but reduced this to 225 metres in the light of battle experience). At shorter or longer distances, the fire was more dispersed (particularly from the Spitfire, whose guns were spread across the wing). In fact, at very short distances a good shot, firing at a Bf 109 at zero deflection, could conceivably miss altogether, the two clusters of bullets passing to either side of the slim fuselage and just above the wings (although they might clip the propeller tips!).


"To sum up, the British armament was highly effective against unarmoured fighters and the high firing rate improved the chances of hitting. At the start of the war it was probably the best armament available against fighters. However, the rapid introduction of armour protection during 1940 greatly reduced the effectiveness of all rifle-calibre machine guns and gave the cannon a clear advantage, especially against bombers which were easier to hit but more difficult to destroy. Many German bombers made it back to base despite being riddled by up to 200 .303 bullets, protected by crew seat armour and self-sealing fuel tanks. This compensated to some extent for their poor defensive armament, which consisted of hand-aimed 7.92mm MG 15 guns in single mountings."

I don't mind people indulging in their own fantasies. Just don't make it sound like it's an official fact.

For easier understanding, using Tony's table of guns;

* If a Browning 30cal round is '1' in power, the M2 50cal is '4.6'. The Hispano 20mm is '20'.

* Eight machines guns on the Hurricane is only worth about two 50 cal machine guns, and not even half of a single Hispano gun.

* While it takes just one round of Hispano at any distance to deal a '20' damage, all of the eight rounds fired at only at certain distances, all connecting at a single concentrated spot, is still only worth '8'.


I can always quote an instance of a bird bringing down a jet plane by being sucked into the engines. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna conclude that the bird is as powerful as a Sidewinder missile, does it?

[This message was edited by Kweassa1 on Wed February 11 2004 at 08:58 PM.]

pourshot
02-11-2004, 11:01 PM
I was in a coop last nite flying the hurrie Mk1 and I needed 370 hits from my .303 to bring down 1 ME109e and even then it crash landed and the pilot got out.I was on coms with my wing man and it was like ,bugger is that thing ever going to die. I meen come on it's not realistic to expect a plane to fly after so many hits even if it was with the .303


Funny thing is we played the same coop from the other side flying the Emil and I only needed a total of 14 hits each from both cannons and MG's to kill 2 Hurries.


I should add that my convergance was set to 150m on the hurrie and I was shooting from 100-200m and not from dead six,I just wish I had made a track.

ps; This is not a whine just a fact

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masamainio
02-12-2004, 01:42 AM
I have said this before, but here it is again:

Most of the Finnish aces set their convergence at 30 meters. This close they tried to get before opening fire, anything more is just waste of ammo. Propably many German aces too.

In real life it wasn't about exploding the enemy with gun fire. Most often it was enough to cause little damage to make the enemy break and head for home. Then you had made your job and prevented him from completing his task.

Fighter vs fighter dogfighting was a result of trying to prevent enemy achieving their goal (bombing, recon, ground attack etc.), not the purpose in itself.

Of course it's different online. You shoot the enemy smoking and while he is trying to get back to base someone comes and puts a couple of rounds in him stealing your kill.......

[This message was edited by masamainio on Thu February 12 2004 at 12:53 AM.]

SpinSpinSugar
02-12-2004, 03:46 AM
Having spent a lot of time in the Mk.1 recently in the RAF campaign I can confirm it's perfectly possible to down multiple targets in the Hurri if your convergence and aim are spot on. Ju88s in particular seem to be easy meat and are one of the few types that commonly burn under .303 fire.

All difficulty settings on, in single missions I've downed :

o 2xHe-111, 1xJu87
o 2xBf109, 1xJu87
o 1xJu88, 2xBf110
o 3xBf110

Of course, I get my fair share of kickings too but it seems to approximate to real-life gun performance in terms of raw numbers. Bear in mind also the above includes protracted campaign kills that fall into trees some minutes after the engagement with severed control lines or dead engines.

Things I've had to change from flying aircraft with heavier armnament :

1.) Only firing when at, or closer than, convergence and when sure of a hit. Always.

2.) Short bursts to confirm bullet strikes followed by longer bursts if necessary. There's more than enough ammo if you're careful, and often if you do manage hits at convergence with a short burst, there's no need to follow up. At least not on that location on the target.

3.) Learning the kill spots on each enemy. I've completely abandoned going for structural kills with .303s, leave those for cannons, only ever target "soft areas" : cockpits, engines, and inboard fuel tanks. If you do get all eight guns on target into the front fuselage of a Heinkel, you've more than likely killed the crew and wrecked it's controls. By and large hits on rear fuselages and outboard wings are wasted.

4.) In campaigns, learning when "enough is enough". That aircraft is going down, and/or shed it's bombload and missed it's objective. It may not be a hole in the ground for five minutes, but I've crippled it and it's not going to make it home. Time for the next target.

Cheers, SSS