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stathem
07-28-2008, 08:04 AM
Had an odd co-incidence the other day.

I guess everyone that's flown bombers for any length of time in this game is familiar with the idea of dropping bombs in the path of a pursuing fighter as a last ditch attempt to avoid getting wasted.

I always thought that this was just a 'gamey' thing to do; that it wasn't something that was recognised as a valid RL tactic.

However, I was idly flipping through a bound magazine collection that the Father-in-law had bought me from a car boot sale; I think it's 'Warplane' by Orbis, from about '87. It's all about late cold war military aviation, not something I'd read avidly about; in fact, I've barely touched the collection since it arrived.

Came across a piece on the Buccaneer and the mission profile for Anti-ship work. Reading through I was surprised to see the 'dropping your knickers' was the expression used for the idea of dropping spare 1000lbrs in the path of pursuing fighters, when it wasn't carrying self-defence Sidewinders.

So the co-incidence was, only the night before I'd done this really effectively to a FW190 that wanted a piece of my B-25 on Warclouds. Looked f***ing cool from the rear turret of the B-25 as the FW dissolved into little tiny bits of plane when he flew over a pair of 1000lbrs I'd just dropped on target.

So, if you're on TS and you hear me shout, "I'm going to drop my knickers' don't worry...too much.

PhantomKira
07-28-2008, 08:51 AM
Late in the war, the Germans resorted to taking bombed up fighters above bomber formations and dropping the bombs through them, in an attempt to hit a bomber with a bomb. Don't know that it worked well, and I'll bet more than a few farmers got a nasty surprise when bombs failed to detonate in the bomber streams.

ElAurens
07-28-2008, 10:52 AM
I vaporized a Bf109 a long time ago with the AJ Cassettes on an IL2.

Pretty funny.

BWaltteri
07-28-2008, 01:32 PM
I just witnessed a TB-3 flight vaporizing itself on a low-level mission.

Cool coordination.

idonno
07-28-2008, 02:09 PM
Does anyone have any information about how common it was, or wasn't, for WWII bombs to be set with delays?

ImMoreBetter
07-28-2008, 02:22 PM
I've almost been hit by bombs dropped from enemy aircraft. It was pretty neat.

Only a few times have I been successful in dropping knickers myself.


In WWII, the Germans would also fly captured Allied bombers into formations to drop their loads through them. Bombs need to be going fast enough to detonate, dropping them on other planes would punch a very large hole, but not explode. Sometimes they hit, but most of the time they failed.


Delays and their amounts depended on the type of mission. Extreme low level missions obviously had delays. IIRC, terror bombing missions would sometimes have a mix of delayed and un-delayed bombs, to kill anyone who gathered around the blast site of the un-delayed ones.

idonno
07-28-2008, 02:42 PM
Delays and their amounts depended on the type of mission

And that's what bothers me about "dropping your knickers" in the game. It's the kind of thing that becomes far too common since virtually everybody is flying around with delayed bombs, regardless of the mission. That's what makes it "gamey."

Urufu_Shinjiro
07-28-2008, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by idonno:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Delays and their amounts depended on the type of mission

And that's what bothers me about "dropping your knickers" in the game. It's the kind of thing that becomes far too common since virtually everybody is flying around with delayed bombs, regardless of the mission. That's what makes it "gamey." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it's gamey anyway because almost no one does the kind of high altitude level bombing that was done without a delay, most have a delay on their bombs because they know they may end up on a low alt bomb run and don't want to blow their own tail off, lol.

stathem
07-28-2008, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Urufu_Shinjiro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by idonno:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Delays and their amounts depended on the type of mission

And that's what bothers me about "dropping your knickers" in the game. It's the kind of thing that becomes far too common since virtually everybody is flying around with delayed bombs, regardless of the mission. That's what makes it "gamey." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it's gamey anyway because almost no one does the kind of high altitude level bombing that was done without a delay, most have a delay on their bombs because they know they may end up on a low alt bomb run and don't want to blow their own tail off, lol. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tend to do as many, if not more High Alt (>20,000') bomb runs as low; but I don't reset the delay to 0 for the high runs because I know only too well, from bitter experience, that the next time I go low or go skip bombing I'd forget to set it back.

lbuchele2007
07-28-2008, 03:56 PM
There is a book whose author, a german pilot named Heinz Knocke , actually downed 1 or 2 B17 dropping a 250 Kgs bomb from his Bf 109 fighter.
I have the book in my house, the name I think is "Fighter Pilot". I wiil post the correct title later.

willyvic
07-28-2008, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by stathem:

...So the co-incidence was, only the night before I'd done this really effectively to a FW190 that wanted a piece of my B-25 on Warclouds...


You have achieved the fine art of "sour" bombing. Named after 310th Sourkraut who perfected the practice on Warclouds. The guy was deadly good until the regulars wised up and refused to chase him low, fast, and close.

It does make for some fine viewing via ntrk files.

WV.

b2spirita
07-28-2008, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by lbuchele2007:
There is a book whose author, a german pilot named Heinz Knocke , actually downed 1 or 2 B17 dropping a 250 Kgs bomb from his Bf 109 fighter.
I have the book in my house, the name I think is "Fighter Pilot". I wiil post the correct title later.

My version is titled 'I flew for the Fuhrer'

stathem
07-29-2008, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by willyvic:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:

...So the co-incidence was, only the night before I'd done this really effectively to a FW190 that wanted a piece of my B-25 on Warclouds...


You have achieved the fine art of "sour" bombing. Named after 310th Sourkraut who perfected the practice on Warclouds. The guy was deadly good until the regulars wised up and refused to chase him low, fast, and close.

It does make for some fine viewing via ntrk files.

WV. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks WV. I'd heard that expression before on comms, but I always struggle to remember it, and certainly didn't know the origin. I'll remember it now.

I can't profess to any great skill at it; tried it a few times but this was the first time it really came off. In this instance I just happened to be in the target area when the Focker latched on and thought I might as well take a run on some Tigers and see what happened. Got very lucky. Unfortunately his wingman got me shortly afterwards, so it was all for nothing.

BSS_Goat
07-29-2008, 06:37 AM
I shot a flying bumble bee with my sons Red Ryder BB gun yesterday.....I'm a sniper.

p1ngu666
07-29-2008, 07:10 AM
they used all sorts of delays on the bombs btw, from 0 seconds to several days (maxiumum disruption)

general_kalle
08-02-2008, 05:23 AM
took out a La5 with two SC500's from my Me109Z
i dropped the first bomb but my chaser avoided it. however as he thought i was out of bombs the second pair took him out and shattered him all over and area of 10 square KM http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

b2spirita
08-02-2008, 08:50 AM
Playing in the QMB i attacked a bridge at extreme low altitude, persued by 4 109's. My mossie was hit but still flying so i dropped my second pair of 500 pounders and took out two 109s straight away, whilst a third appeared to be PK'd as i drifted slowly into the sea , the 4th i was able to finish off due to heavy damage. It was incredible really and i suspect that the 4th 109 was on 'complete dolt' setting.

Taylortony
08-02-2008, 03:36 PM
At low level they were not delayed fuses on modern stuff normally, you simply used ******s.... that is why you see a chute shaped fan deploy out of the fins, it was to slow the forward speed of the bomb down allowing the bomber to escape. remember the Bucc has a special bomb bay, it was half fuel tank which was half a cylinder in shape, other area was bomb load and it rotated round to allow weapons release, then rotated back to form the doors

Blottogg
08-03-2008, 12:47 AM
The term for this technique I remember hearing from my RAF contemporaries was "Bombs In Face" or BIF. And as Taylortony said, it was meant to be used with ******ed bombs like AIR's, Snakeyes, or the RAF types, who's designators I can never remember. They talked about it like it was a legitimate tactic of theirs, though I don't know how they practiced for it. The RAF flew so insanely low anyway, that I wouldn't put it past them to use this tactic in combat.

chunkydora
08-03-2008, 01:00 AM
Oh yeah, all you guys go around dropping bombs on unfortunate fighter pilots. I'm the kind of guy who get bombs dropped on him... Unbelievably embarrassing.

Taylortony
08-03-2008, 06:38 AM
Originally posted by Blottogg:
The RAF flew so insanely low anyway, that I wouldn't put it past them to use this tactic in combat.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Remember doing Red Flag wind at Lossiemouth in Scotland and watching the Gun camera from an F15 who was trying to get a lock on.... it had been sent over by the F15 pilot whose words I could not repeat here.. You can see the Jag as they vent fuel at low level manouevers from the "Donkeys ****" which is the fuel dump pipe below the rudder..
As the our pilot knew the F15 had problems locking on in the background clutter he dropped the Jag down INTO a forestry firebreak and flew down that below tree height.. The comments from the F15 pilots were somewhat full of expletives!!!...
The Bucc on the other hand was better lowlevel IMHO... Incidentally watch this to understand the reasoning behind the Undercarriage the jag carries.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=I5eoRle9H1A&feature=related

As a lot of you know, I have had the priviledge of flying in this Bird...... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Saburo_0
08-04-2008, 05:59 PM
In ww2 there was a case of a Japanese ace who tried to take off during an attack on there base & a bomb that missed the runway hit the ocean throwing up a fountain of water that destroyed his a/c & killed him. Not sure but think it was at Lae.
Dumbluck but that kinda stuff happens.

Aaron_GT
08-05-2008, 10:23 AM
When Mosquitoes started doing low level raids with d.a. bimbs there were some unfortunate friendly fire incidents as the bomb release was where, on most planes, the ptt was. This got very quicklt changed, but from memory this problem led to four RAF deaths first.

b2spirita
08-05-2008, 10:26 AM
Originally posted by Saburo_0:
In ww2 there was a case of a Japanese ace who tried to take off during an attack on there base & a bomb that missed the runway hit the ocean throwing up a fountain of water that destroyed his a/c & killed him. Not sure but think it was at Lae.
Dumbluck but that kinda stuff happens.


I heard that american AA gunners on ships would fire into the water to swamp approaching low level planes. Dont know if its true though.

Oh and dod you see the comments on the vid talor posted?

Blottogg
08-05-2008, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Taylortony:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blottogg:
The RAF flew so insanely low anyway, that I wouldn't put it past them to use this tactic in combat.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Remember doing Red Flag wind at Lossiemouth in Scotland and watching the Gun camera from an F15 who was trying to get a lock on.... it had been sent over by the F15 pilot whose words I could not repeat here.. You can see the Jag as they vent fuel at low level manouevers from the "Donkeys ****" which is the fuel dump pipe below the rudder..
As the our pilot knew the F15 had problems locking on in the background clutter he dropped the Jag down INTO a forestry firebreak and flew down that below tree height.. The comments from the F15 pilots were somewhat full of expletives!!!...
The Bucc on the other hand was better lowlevel IMHO... Incidentally watch this to understand the reasoning behind the Undercarriage the jag carries.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=I5eoRle9H1A&feature=related

As a lot of you know, I have had the priviledge of flying in this Bird...... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The one Flag I went to unfortunately had no Brits in attendance, but I've got an old Red Flag book lying around somewhere that talks about the Buccaneers dragging wingtips out on the ranges, and one that hit a power or phone line. They measured how high the line was after the strike, and it was something like 40 feet AGL... and the Bucc crew pulled UP into it trying to avoid it.

jamesblonde1979
08-05-2008, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by PhantomKira:
Late in the war, the Germans resorted to taking bombed up fighters above bomber formations and dropping the bombs through them, in an attempt to hit a bomber with a bomb. Don't know that it worked well, and I'll bet more than a few farmers got a nasty surprise when bombs failed to detonate in the bomber streams.

I think Heinz Knocke came up with that stunt, I remember reading it in his book...

Knocked out a pair of Hurricanes and a bridge this way once, it still makes me laugh.

I didn't expect to see 2x Enemy A/C Destroyed come up.

WTE_Galway
08-05-2008, 08:39 PM
During the summer of '40 the Luftwaffe experimented with he111's fitted with flame throwers activated by the rear gunner. It was an abysmal failure serving only to draw the attention of enemy fighters.

DaddyAck
08-05-2008, 09:19 PM
I vaguely remember reading about that. It has been a while, though I thought it was another bomber chasis not the 111....

WTE_Galway
08-05-2008, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by DaddyAck:
I vaguely remember reading about that. It has been a while, though I thought it was another bomber chasis not the 111....

Might have been a Dornier.

I just remember the story from a cable documentary a few years back.