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JRJacobs
11-03-2007, 02:03 PM
Another hypothetical combat situation: P-80 Shooting Star versus Me-262. Hot guns and hot jets at 20,000 ft.
Who wins in this test of two of the first operational combat jet fighters?

http://sg.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071007023821AABur2I

Bearcat99
11-03-2007, 02:24 PM
Hmmmm thats a pretty interesting website...

ultraHun
11-03-2007, 03:37 PM
Where's Tagert when you need him?

Xiolablu3
11-03-2007, 03:56 PM
'Who wins in this test of two of the first operational combat jet fighters?'



It seems this guy doesnt even know about the Gloster Meteor which entered service the same time as the Me262.


I wouldnt pay too much attention.

Klemm.co
11-03-2007, 05:12 PM
IIRC the 262 entered service some weeks or so before the Meteor. And the Meteor didn't conflict with actual planes (buzz bombs don't shoot back). OK, it "operational", but it didn't really see actual combat. I mean PLANES VERSUS PLANES.
Or got a source to prove otherwise? I'd be really interested.

And of course he isn't interested, I think hes american. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Aviar
11-03-2007, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by ultraHun:
Where's Tagert when you need him?

I've hosted a lot of coops which featured the YP-80 vs the Me-262. Tagert has been in a lot of those coops.

I'm sure he has an opinion on this one. Heck, he has an opinion on everything....and he's always right. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Aviar

Badsight-
11-03-2007, 08:06 PM
he also thinks the F-80 won the first Jet on Jet combat

mortoma
11-03-2007, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Badsight-:
he also thinks the F-80 won the first Jet on Jet combat It did win the first encounter with the Mig-15. This is historically documented and I will look for sources too. When the first Mig-15s were flying sorties, there were no Sabres yet in Korea. Needless to say, they got 'em there quickly after the Mig came out in numbers.

I disagree with him on one point. I don't think it was so much pilot skill that enabled the F-80 to win that fight against the Mig. IIRC, the fight took place at relatively low altitude and believe it or not, the F-80 handled way better than the Mig-15 down low. The Mig was meant for higher altitudes anyway. Those straight wings on the F-80 allowed for better turning and handling in general. Plus the Mig was not known for it's handling. If anything it was known for it's weird handling, since it's wings were anhedral. Below 15,000 feet, I would take on a Mig-15 in F-80 any day.

berg417448
11-03-2007, 09:21 PM
The way I've heard this story is that the first jet to jet kill was claimed by a Soviet MiG-15 pilot against an F-80 in Korea. US loss records apparently do not confirm this claim.

The next day or so a US F-80 pilot (a Lt Brown ?)claimed a kill against a Mig-15 but Soviet records do not confirm this claim and say the Soviet pilot returned to base.

The next day or so a USN F9F Panther scored a confirmed kill against a Mig-15 leading to the current belief that this was the first jet to jet kill.

mortoma
11-03-2007, 09:30 PM
Here's a quote from a web page i just found:

1950 - Lt. Russell J. Brown, flying a Lockheed F-80 Shooting Star, shot down a North Korean MiG-15 in the first jet aerial combat in history.


It's on this web page if you scroll down:

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/20th/jets2.html

berg417448
11-03-2007, 09:33 PM
Here is the story I read:

"The following days saw inconclusive encounters between US fighters and Soviet MiGs; on November 7 two F-51 pilots claimed to have shot down a MiG each and so did the F-80C pilot 1st Lt. Russell Brown of the 16th FIS on 8th November. This claim had been considered the first jet-versus-jet kill for more than forty years. But none of those shot downs really happened as no Soviet MiGs were lost during those days. On that day 1st Lt. Brown bounced a MiG-15 of the 72nd GvIAP piloted by Starshij Lejtenant Kharitonov who still had the external fuel tanks on. Kharitonov entered a steep dive and punched off the fuel tanks trying to avoid Russell's bullets, who interpreted the dive as an uncontrolled fall and the explosion of the fuel tanks on the ground was misidentified as a MiG crashing. The first MiG kill only happened the next day when several F9F Panthers of VF-111 were escorting AD-4s and F4U Corsairs, which were attacking the Yalu bridges. Lt. Cdr. William T. Amen surprised a MiG when those were trying to get the Skyraiders and Corsairs shooting it down with 20 mm fire.

His victim was Kapetan Grachev of 139th GvIAP....."

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_315.shtml

AKA_TAGERT
11-03-2007, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Aviar:
I'm sure he has an opinion on this one. Heck, he has an opinion on everything....and he's always right. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif Yes and it is in my opinion that web sight is tarded.

mortoma
11-03-2007, 09:43 PM
That story is a bunch of revisionist junk. Other pilots flying in the vicinity that day witness the Mig catch on fire when Brown dived on it. And he only had one .50 MG working, the rest were jammed. But it was enough to set the Mig on fire. The story you posted fails to mention the resulting fire onboard the Mig, only mentioning the Mig dive and the fuel tanks hitting the ground. The plane itself was observed to be on fire. It was also observed to be spinning, not just on fire. I'd call that a victory.

mortoma
11-03-2007, 09:46 PM
On the very day that Brown bagged his Mig, the first F-86As were ordered to head over to Korea.
It was the 4th Fighter interceptor wing based in Wilmington, Deleware.

Daiichidoku
11-03-2007, 10:30 PM
Becky:
The only real advantage the 262 would have are those huge 30mm cannons on some of the later models. Same caliber still used today by many military aircraft. If the 262 got in a couple good hits from range it might be fight.

Source(s):
Military brat, dad has lots of books.



perfekt! please do come home to UBI soon, Becky

Badsight-
11-04-2007, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
It did win the first encounter with the Mig-15. This is historically documented and I will look for sources too. When the first Mig-15s were flying sorties, there were no Sabres yet in Korea. Needless to say, they got 'em there quickly after the Mig came out in numbers.

I disagree with him on one point. I don't think it was so much pilot skill that enabled the F-80 to win that fight against the Mig. IIRC, the fight took place at relatively low altitude and believe it or not, the F-80 handled way better than the Mig-15 down low. The Mig was meant for higher altitudes anyway. Those straight wings on the F-80 allowed for better turning and handling in general. Plus the Mig was not known for it's handling. If anything it was known for it's weird handling, since it's wings were anhedral. Below 15,000 feet, I would take on a Mig-15 in F-80 any day.
well going on VVS loss records , no Migs were lost that day

a couple of days later an F-80 was lost to combat tho , making it the first Jet kill

FPSOLKOR
11-04-2007, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
That story is a bunch of revisionist junk. Other pilots flying in the vicinity that day witness the Mig catch on fire when Brown dived on it. And he only had one .50 MG working, the rest were jammed. But it was enough to set the Mig on fire. The story you posted fails to mention the resulting fire onboard the Mig, only mentioning the Mig dive and the fuel tanks hitting the ground. The plane itself was observed to be on fire. It was also observed to be spinning, not just on fire. I'd call that a victory.
ISBN 978-5-699-19160-4
This book is not trustworthy in turms of american losses, but pretty accurate in turms of soviet claims and losses.
So, what we see on this matter:
1.11.1950 Lt. Khominich (72 GvIAP) claimed F-80 between 14.12 and 14.50. According to book it's pilot was MIA.
7.11.1950 one MiG-15 was claimed by Mj. Ken Karson (not sure about spelling) flying F-51. No lost or damaged MiGs were recorded
8.11.50 4 MiG-15 from 3rd AE 72 GvIAP were attacked by 8 F-80's head on and one bullet hit drop tank of Sr.Lt. Sanin's plane, who safely landed at home base. This plane was credited as shot down to Russel Brown, but it flew the next day...
9.11.50 four MiG-15's from 139 GvIAP were repelling an attack of F4U and AD-2s (which they did well - their target was unharmed). In the heat of the fight Captain Grachev Mikhail Fedorovich missed 4 F9F's which shot him down (using 20 mm cannons, if anyone is interested) and this kill was credited to Lt Colonel Eimen. 3 claims were made by soviet pilots towards Panthers:Lt Sannikov, Sr Lt. Stulov and Lt Kumonayev, of which only 1 was credited to the regiment. According to the book US Navy confirmed a loss of F9F from VF-51, pilot of which was rescued.
Later 6 MiG's from 72 GvIAP intercepted B-29 escorted by 18 F-80's, and claimed one of the escorts downed, what was not confirmed by ground forces, so this kill was not credited to the regiment.
On that same day 4 MiG-15s from 72 GvIAP were fighting against 4 F-80, during which 2 F-80's collided. They were credited as shot down to Stroikov and Kaznacheev (maneuver kill).
One more MiG was credited to Sergeant Liven - RB-29 gunner, but no killed or damaged MiGs were listed in this case.

cawimmer430
11-04-2007, 02:58 AM
Seems to me those guys on Yahoo don't really know what they're talking about.

"The only advantage the Me-262 has are those 30mm cannons on the "later" models".

The Me-262 was designed with 30mm cannons from the beginning AFAIK.

Also, I wouldn't consider 30mm cannons an "advantage", rather a disadvantage if you're going to dogfight with other jet. Slow rate of fire and poor trajectory will make your kill extremely hard to get, unless you surprise the other guy. With 20mm cannons the Me-262 would probably be a better "dogfighter". Then again it was designed as a bomber killer (and bomber).

Jaws2002
11-04-2007, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by cawimmer430:


Also, I wouldn't consider 30mm cannons an "advantage", rather a disadvantage if you're going to dogfight with other jet. Slow rate of fire and poor trajectory will make your kill extremely hard to get, unless you surprise the other guy. With 20mm cannons the Me-262 would probably be a better "dogfighter". Then again it was designed as a bomber killer (and bomber).

Where do you get the slow rate of fire from?
THe MK-108 had by far the highest rate of fire of all big cannons in WW2. Heck was better then many 20mm guns too in this respect. Just look at the Tony Whilliams's Website Site http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm


As you can see thge 108 has higher rate of fire then first version of the Hispano, Mg-FF, and all japanese cannons. Only late model hispano, MG-151 and the Russian 20mm's have higer rate of fire of all the cannons.
Me 262 was able to throw 2640 of those massive shells per minute. that's not low rate of fire by any means, since was enough only one of those things to hit you.